This sounds like one of those “militant atheists” I've been hearing so much about

Yay for firebreathing. Unfortunately, as an adult in the "progressive" state of California, I have to say that we need more militant atheists.

I do not like anything associated with RCP leader, Bob Avakian. Being involved in lefty causes over the years, dealing with those Maoists were always a pain in the ass.

Bob Avakian!? That guy makes Chairman Mao look sane... And his Revolutionary Communist Party, USA is a cult of personality that Stalin or Mao would have loved.

We atheists are making connections, slowly but surely. Where I work, we know who we are. We have to be careful because political correctness still reigns in the academy, but we are watching each other's backs and are beginning to take an open stand in opposition to religion, when it comes up. But it will take time to move it to open ridicule, though tenure will help.

Yes; please don't associate yourself in any way with Bob Avakian or his crackpot allies. Maoist atheism is not Dawkins rationalism.

Cynthia Dunbar is one woman who makes the case that believing in gods is harmful:
http://timpanogos.wordpress.com/2008/11/05/is-our-children-learning-sci…

If there are gods, one must believe they think this woman is seriously delusional.

Maoist atheism is not Dawkins rationalism.

I have to wonder if that's PZ's point. He managed to scrape up an actually militant atheist, and the contrast is interesting.

What Janine said about Bob Jassackian. Like yer average church, he's really good at grabbing the coattails of whatever bit of progress looks possible and then, hollering through his bullhorn as he flaps along behind people who are actually moving forward on their own power, telling them that he's Da Leader In Charge. Ever been around one of those people who have the habit of ordering you to do what you've just started doing? Like that.

And in the most execrable prose.

I was going to ask if Bob Avakian is that Bob Avakian, but it seems from earlier comments that he is indeed. Stay away, stay far, far away. The last thing we atheists need to do is associate ourselves with the leader of a creepy secular cult (and Shining Path apologist).

The point is that athesists are only united in a disbelief of a god(s) and the consequences that has on our lives. That's it - though it's probably also a sign of rational thought processes at work. But we're all individuals so there's going to be right wing ones and liberal ones, funny ones, boring ones, smelly ones, pratts and, hopefully, more than a fair share of heros!

If you don't like this guy for his political stance then fine - don't go. But the fact that there might be some guy you don't like pushing an atheist stance doesn't mean anything about atheism in general. Don't let believers make you think there's a general atheist political movement, or a common atheist stance on this that or the other political issue.

I pretty much suspect that politics wouldn't be fundamentally different if we were all atheists. But somehow when arguing my stance with an opponent I think I would have more respect for them if I knew they weren't arguing on behalf of their little friend in the sky but for something they'd thought through themselves.

The only people that attend are other atheists, some people that recently rejected their religion and want to "spread the word", and religious nuts that think god will curse the US for letting atheists spread their word. Just like marriage counseling and religious sermons, this will only help people that want it and are already agreeable to it. Militant atheists are the reason xian nut jobs call atheism another religion.

I still think that's a cheesy title: you can be "militant" (ie outspoken) without sounding like someone ranting on a street corner. An exclamation point in the title is usually a dead giveaway for self-published. You just know some chronically pissed off retired guy is going to finally get stuff off his chest and tell the world What's What. The writer should have picked another title -- unless of course that's what it is.

Not that we atheists wouldn't be considered ranting extremists anyway. I'm becoming more and more aware of how quickly and easily atheists get labeled as shrill. That attack ad by Elizabeth Dole only had to quote Ellen Johnson saying "there is no God" for people to get their panties in a twist. The horror.

The phrase that's been bugging me recently is one I hear all the time, from atheists: "I don't care what people believe, if they want to believe in God that's fine, as long as they don't push it on me." Hmmm...ok. But what the heck does that really mean? What are people trying to refute when they say this? It's so important to get this out, it has to be clearing up some misconception, distancing oneself from some other group which does it wrong.

We're not going to put believers in jail? Ok. We're not going to go door to door and tell people they're wrong to believe in God? Ok. We're not going to bring it up in social situations for no damn reason, and badger and attack people for believing in God, no matter how they try to change the subject and get away? Ok.

But who the hell does that? Is there a huge group of atheists doing this, and we all want to make extra special certain that people won't confuse us with THOSE atheists? Because they're so common.

Or does "not caring if people want to believe in God" mean that we won't advocate atheism, in any way, lest we be seen as "caring that people want to believe in God?" When the subject of religion comes up, we won't argue for our position or try to change anyone's mind. We won't write books. We won't speak out. We won't make people uncomfortable. We don't care if people agree with us.

The implication seems to be that our views are so threatening that we have to reassure people, upfront, that we think it's just fine to disagree with us. Really it is. We don't need you to agree with us. We don't particularly want you to agree with us. We don't care.

I don't know. I'm trying to think of some other area, some other viewpoint or opinion, where people routinely use that phrase.

Paul W #7 wrote:

I have to wonder if that's PZ's point. He managed to scrape up an actually militant atheist, and the contrast is interesting.

Ah, I wrote my post above without knowing anything about Avakian. I was even at the Communist book store in LA and saw the book, but had forgotten the title.

Maybe he's the guy we all mean when we tell people that "we don't care if people believe in God" the way SOME of the BAD atheists do. No, believers are safe with us.

Heh.

I actually read the book and like many things the Communists have to say their analysis of what's wrong is dead on spot but their solutions are usually party line everything will be wonderful when the REAL Communists take over.

But I usually stop by their booth at the Ann Arbor Art Fairbecause they're friendly people and they have some cute babes.

And, like it or not, the Communists and virtually the only people that will accept us.

@JStein (#1) - I second that. Somehow we've let the 'vangies' take over. I cant even find an atheist group in my county to sponsor a talk like this one. May have to start one up. Anyone in Ventura County California interested?

Posted by: teammarty | November 5, 2008 12:15 PM

And, like it or not, the Communists and virtually the only people that will accept us.

Hardly a reason to support these apologists for mass murder.

Sounds like fun - I wish I could be there ! As it is, I'm about to embark on an odessy thru the dark side - in about 15 minutes, I'll be starting a 4 hour live blog of Christian TV stations here in the UK - what's on them, and what rubbish they are pumping into the airwaves.

It all kicks of at 6pm (GMT - in 15 mins) at Roger's Realm (http://rogrealm.blogspot.com/)

Hope to see you there !

Rog

Huh? Nebraska!? Will you be at a public venue? At least one Cornhusker is curious to see another (semi-) militant atheist in the flesh....

For rational thinkers Bob Avakian is NOT the answer. He's an apologist for murderers like Mao and Stalin. These are the bad "true believer" atheists. Just as dogmatic as any follower of invisible men in the sky, and just as willing to kill. And if the Communists are the only people who "will accept us", then I'll be alone thank you very much. Run away.

Atheism has a terrible PR problem already. Thanks for making it worse by flaunting this nonsense, PZ.

Bob Avakian, of the Revolutionary Communist Party, USA? Yeah, not exactly the guy I would want touting my ideals on religion.

I'm all for some more socialist thinking and good old wealth-redistributing, but ... maoism?!
That's a religion all for itself and nearly as deadly as the other ones.

Can you call somebodey an atheist, who makes gods out of dead (and living) people?

Bible belt = Lynching belt. I like that one.

My favorite is still:
Bible belt = Squirrel eating belt.

Bob Avakian? That Communist loony is still around? I remember him back in the 80s carrying on about the "imminent" economic collapse that didn't happen.

Really now, who cares what a bozo like him thinks.

Or is this some OTHER Bob Avakian?

Yes, this is just some wacked out communist ideologues trying to catch the coattails of the currently popularity of atheism.

Go if you want, but bring a large dose of salt.

There are a couple of clips on youtube of Sunsara Taylor playing the wacked out lefty for some Fox News types to make fun of. Not pretty.

This is not the future of rational atheism.

Why is the "Bible Belt" in the U.S. also the "lynching belt"?

Actually, that's the question that has me the most interested. Unfortunately, I'm in Virginia, so I won't be able to listen in on the talk.

You might also wish to compare the Pew Religion Survey map of Biblical Inerrany distribution with the results of last night's Electoral College results.

"And, like it or not, the Communists and virtually the only people that will accept us."

Never hung out with Libertarians much, have you?

...On the other hand, I'm sort of a Red/Green Euro-Commie and the RCP/Avakian cult creep *me* out. And look, even Lyndon LaRouche says a few non-crazy things every once in awhile. I might read the book, but I have no illusions about the source.

I am pleased with the election results, even though I voted 3rd party (Green) for the top spot. All my other D's and L's lost their races to local R's--as I expected.

Oh, no, not that guy. Is Avakian still hiding in France?

If people want to see Taylor talk, that's fine. It might even be entertaining. But from the comments above, I think it's clear that Pharyngula readers know that exchanging authoritarian religiosity for an authoritarian form of socialism isn't really improvement.

I recommend NOT hitching one's wagon to that particular red star.

Bob Avakian? That Communist loony is still around? I remember him back in the 80s carrying on about the "imminent" economic collapse that didn't happen. - DeadGuyKai

Didn't you realise? When he said "imminent" in the 1980s, he meant "in the second half of 2008".

I would like to ask Mr. Avakian why EVERY officially atheistic country has also been a mass murderering totalitarian violator of human rights.

I would like to ask Mr. Avakian why EVERY officially atheistic communist country has also been a mass murderering totalitarian violator of human rights.

Fixed that for accurate historical importance. The communism matters. The atheism is but a side note.

Jumping Jesus on a pogo-stick.

Some of you sound like a bunch of Christians talking about atheists. Oh noes!!! Bob Avakian is teh evulll!!!! Horns!!! sticking out of his head!!!!111!1eleventyone!1!!! Don't go, you'll get cooties!

And Avakian isn't even the one speaking.

I personally am a communist, so I'm biased, but anyone who reads my blog should know I bow to no one in criticality and independence of thought.

I've read the book, and it's a pretty good book. Not first tier, but definitely worth reading. I know Sunsara Taylor, and she's an engaging speaker and a very sharp thinker. I've heard the presentation, and I enjoyed it a lot. One member of the audience (who I later found out was a serious Randian Objectivist) said, "I never thought I would agree with communists."

If you're not interested, don't go, but if you are interested, don't let yourself be scared off. I promise you, Sunsara will not eat your brains, and no one will walk out a zombified commie sympathyzer.

And just to fan the flames a bit...

I'm operating from a small sample, but most of the people I've known who've self-identified as communists and socialists tend to be nice people. A little uptight and all too often politically correct in the more bullshitty sense, but basically nice.

I've never in my life, however, met a Libertarian or Randian who wasn't a complete asshole.

Barefoot Bum, I object because I have dealt with those sellers of The Revolutionary Wanker. I also know how the RCP tries to horn in on leftist groups. I also object to all ot their tiring "SMASH this" and "SMASH that" bullshit. I object to their support of the Cultural Revolution and all Maoist groups. I object to all of their "Bob Avakian speaks" propaganda. I would not go because I would get "cooties". I would not go because I find them despicable.

Jim Christenson, you can see all of these atheists objecting to the RCP yet you think that the atheist view would naturally lead to totalitarianism. I am impressed by the way you can keep your blinders on.

but ... maoism?!

That's a religion all for itself and nearly as deadly as the other ones.

"Nearly"? I mean, it's most likely a matter of opportunity and available methods, but Maoism killed tens of millions of people. The more traditional religions would need hundreds of crusades to get even with that... oops, I forgot the Tàipíng* Revolution... never mind. :-|

* Literally: "very peace".

"is the only choice to take one side or the other?"

Damned good question whenever I hear atheists and Christians talk about each other as if there was nothing either side or in between.

Can people be good without god?

What a militant question! Next they'll be asking if gay parents can successfully raise a child...

David Marjanović, OM #35

Maoism killed tens of millions of people. The more traditional religions would need hundreds of crusades to get even with that

The Thirty Years War was in major part a war between several flavors of Christianity. Approximately 1/3 of the population of Middle Europe died during that war.

Well, there either IS or IS NOT a god.

What's the inbetween?

Well, there either IS or IS NOT a god.What's the inbetween?

There WAS or WILL BE a god?

I for one welcome our revolutionary communist masters . Let us go quietly to Hoxagrad and cover the walls of The International Hall of Head Squeezing and Sheep with posters honoring volume four of _Smash the Infantile Revisionism of the Neovernalizationists.

In response to Jstein, ScottE and others in So. California, you can hear Sunsara Taylor tomorrow, Thursday (11/6), from 4- 6p.m. in Room 118 Haines Hall, UCLA. The Center for the Study of Religion at UCLA has organized a colloquium, entitled "Away With All Gods! Possibility or Fantasy?" where Sunsara will give a talk on the book. The Center's director, Dr, S. Scott Bartchy, will offer a response following her presentation.

If you can't make that, Sunsara will be speaking at the Santa Monica Library, (601 Santa Monica Blvd.) on Saturday, (11/8), from 2-5 p.m. along with Clyde Young.

One of the things I appreciate about PZ Myers, as well as those that engage this blog, is the commitment to critical thinking. In that light, I'd like to urge you to think about the fact that those who've actually read the book, including a religious scholar like Dr. Bartchy, have found it thought-provoking and a unique contribution to an extremely important debate that's opened up in society at this time. Let's not fall prey to the very a priori approach and methodology that's so rampant, and doing such damage today.

JanineIDetc, you and Joe and I should have a drink together; we seem to be similar flavors of Bitter. The rest of you: It's based on experience. None of the good commies I know think much of Avakian or his bunch either, just BTW.

All else aside, I have a serious grudge against the lot of them for their linguistic dullitude. Lamest graffiti EVER.

Substitute "Dawkins" for "Avakian" and you have a typical Rapture Ready thread.

Might be a nice guy. Might have good intentions, might believe, he is the literal lonely prophet in the desert ... but defending persons like the great comrade and the great chairman ( they always have to be great ... ) goes beyond "telling an inconvenient truth" - it is simply wrong.
This does not mean, that things as economical justice and life in conditions worthy of human beings are wrong ... also revolutions.
But murder is.

Difference between this talk and the typical "I am saved, are you?" - forum is the lack of: "My invisible daddy above the clouds will smash you, bah!"

So can anyone take a pause from the ad hominems to offer a substantive criticism of something Ms. Taylor has said?

Funny to see self-acclaimed Atheïsts foam at the mouth and point their digits at a 'communist' and preach the end-of-the-world if you'd even listen to this commie.

Maybe some of you resemble the religious nutters more than you'd like to think ?

Anyways, back on topic :
"Why is patriarchy and the oppression of women foundational to so many religions?"
is one that has been baffling me for a long time too now.

"Why is patriarchy and the oppression of women foundational to so many religions?"
is one that has been baffling me for a long time too now.

To be sustained, oppression needs to be morally sanctioned, and religion provides that. And the oppression of women is ... well, as Oko and John said, "woman is the ****** of the world".

Maoism killed tens of millions of people - David Marjanović, OM

True, but this was in large part due to Mao's crass stupidity rather than his malice: most of them died as a result of the famine caused by the "Great Leap Forward".

One member of the audience (who I later found out was a serious Randian Objectivist) said, "I never thought I would agree with communists." - The Barefoot Bum

And you think that's a recommendation?

Substitute "Dawkins" for "Avakian" and you have a typical Rapture Ready thread. Barefoot Bum

Liar. A "Typical Rapture Ready Thread" censors all dissenting voices. Here, you're free to voice your views, as are other disciples of the mini-Mao, and others critical of the general opinion, such as truth machine.

This guy is a Marxist revolutionary. He's kind of a crackpot, IMHO.