Mail dump

What leaps out at me from the first e-mail is that the sender sent it from his *work* account (note both the sender ID and the business-style confidentiality statement at the end).

I wonder what his bosses think about him sending hate mail from their PCs through their servers.... (Most companies have pretty strict policies about use of corporate systems.)

PZ, you have a job at a collage? I'd like to know how you got that job too. Sounds like easy work, if you can get it.

Im all for going after lunatics making threats,

once positively identified, yes.

but its for PZ,not you or anyone else here.

nope.

it's a crime, and anyone who feels the need to try an curtail this type of crime might feel obligated to involve themselves.

If PZ wanted it to remain a private issue, you obviously know how he could have gone about it.

Capital Dan,

And again, nobody is harassing them. Several people just informed the company that owns the email address, and I sent an email directly to that person informing them. There's nothing harassing in the email.

Let's remember that they chose this mess when they sent an email threatening violence. I have no sympathy for them. If somebody used Ms. Kroll's email address, then I'm sorry she got mixed up in all this, but that again isn't our fault. It's the fault of the asshole who used her account.

And there's nothing "out of line" about informing somebody about what MAY be a crime, and what certainly IS an abuse of company resources. It's not just about a personal grievance between the two parties.

Agilent is represented by Paul Hastings in a multi-million dollar civil lawsuit that challenges the company's wild assertion that is an ISP entitled to federal immunity in criminal matters.

For one year, Agilent allowed Dr. Cameron Alden Moore, the notorious Crack Smoking Jesus to use the company's intranet to terrorize and e-mail death threats from Agilent in Colorado to families in California.

The FBI investigated and on 14 February 2003, Moore was arrested and charged with a felony. A few months later Agilent fired its in-house terrorist. Moore pled guilty and was convicted in the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of California.

The families filed a complaint against Agilent and Moore in the California Superior Court, Santa Clara County seeking damages for pain and suffering. Moore lost at trial and on 18 April 2005, two of his victims were awarded $1,100,103.94 for intentional infliction of severe emotional distress.

You betcha death threats are illegal, a criminal felony. Google and read, people get sent to jail all the time for these. Cameron Moore was convicted and jailed.

He also owes his victims 1.1 million bucks after a civil suit which he lost. Agilent, his employer, and from where the emails were sent is also being sued.

For any morons who can't read and you know who you are,
1. Death threats are felonies. People go to jail.

2. The perps can also be sued in civil court. They can be ordered to pay millions of dollars in damages.

3. If they are sending them from work, the employer may also be liable. You can bet 1800flowers knows this or will after they talk to their lawyers. You can also bet they are going to turn mkroll and her computer upside down and figure out where the email came from and from whom.

It is cheaper than sending Myers a million bucks.

What leaps out at me from the first e-mail is that the sender sent it from his *work* account (note both the sender ID and the business-style confidentiality statement at the end).

I wonder what his bosses think about him sending hate mail from their PCs through their servers.... (Most companies have pretty strict policies about use of corporate systems.)

Posted by: W. H. Heydt

*facepalm*

Neural T,

lets say you get a call from the your employer tomorrow telling you youre fired,alleging you sent a death threat to someone,you are told they have your IP address and followed it back to your workstation,its all watertight,you also receive mails to your email account accusing you of the same,and you notice your name and personal details have been posted on a public blog......but you know of course you did none of these things? How would you feel?

All Im saying is,this is not how anyone should want to see justice done in here.None of you guys is in a position to prove that those names link to those IP addresses,so the right thing to do is to leave it to PZ or the authorities to make those connections.

#501

What leaps out at me from the first e-mail is that the sender sent it from his *work* account (note both the sender ID and the business-style confidentiality statement at the end).

I wonder what his bosses think about him sending hate mail from their PCs through their servers.... (Most companies have pretty strict policies about use of corporate systems.)

Posted by: W. H. Heydt | July 14, 2008 1:09 AM

Sorry for the quasi-double post here, but in order to truly understand why this is facepalm-worthy, the comment number and timestamp are important.

That said:

*facepalm*

clinteas,

In this situation, the mkroll account sent an auto-response claiming that Melanie Kroll is on vacation from July 4 to July 14. If she's been gone for the last week -- with pictures of her sunbathing in Florida, perhaps -- I'd say she has a pretty water tight case.

None of you guys is in a position to prove that those names link to those IP addresses,so the right thing to do is to leave it to PZ or the authorities to make those connections.

That's what we did. The IT department and management can sort it out.

I don't know why PZ posted the emails here.

Sometimes people react to threats with denial and minimization. Sometimes our instinct not to show fear kicks in. Fear can escalate conflicts.

The people who sent these emails likely won't follow through. Why travel hundreds of miles to kill a stranger?

Still, these emails are evidence of a crime. The senders may be causing problems elsewhere, or may do something to someone else in the future. Best to pass the evidence along to the police.

From a brief scanning of the email header of the first one, it was sent from a domain of 1800flowers.int; this is a tale-tell sign of a Windows Active Directory (improperly named I might add), and the fact it was sent through an Exchange server is a dead giveaway. This isn't spoofed, it's legit IMO. Sorry if somebody else already saw this, I didn't want to read all of the comments in yet another thread, I'm still laughing my ass of from the other ones :)

I called the 1.5162376000 number listed on post 131. Considering its 119 AM,I didnt think that anyone would pick up, but some dude did the whole 1-800-flowers greeting. And I was like hey PZ Meyers got an email from Mkroll and the guy was confused and was like did "you get an email from her?" I was like no and said thanks and good bye! 1.5162376000 sounds like 1-800-flowers techsupport though I may be mistaken. So Mkroll is probably a female.

Still, these emails are evidence of a crime. The senders may be causing problems elsewhere, or may do something to someone else in the future. Best to pass the evidence along to the police.

Posted by: Dr Benway

Exactly. And, I'm sure PZ has already taken the appropriate steps. Why people here would feel they need to get involved is somewhat puzzling. Plus, getting involved will only clutter up things for those investigating these emails.

I don't know why PZ posted the emails here.

I do. My theories:

1. Myers has been getting these daily for days now. I suspect it is somewhere between 10 and 30 a day.

After the first 50 or so, he is getting tired of it. He thinks that if he posts them maybe people will think a little more before committing felonies. It says in a box at the top of the blog that he will post death threats with full IDs. Fair warning to the morons.

In case no one has noticed, the number of death threats has dropped to zero as even morons can understand that 5 years in prison for sending a crazed email is dumb.

The IT department and management can sort it out.

Or they can destroy evidence before the police obtain a warrant.

Dr Benway,

I've talked to members of law enforcement. They have fairly sophisticated computer forensics technology. They can sometimes even get data that has been "scrubbed" 25 times like some of those programs claim. Plus, by doing that, they would commit a crime too. Why would they jeopardize themselves to cover for some asshole coworker?

#416

It's another to spoof all the routing information. It would take someone with an advanced understanding of internet mail handling AND specific knowledge of the 1-800-FLOWERS mail system.

You're right.

It's very hard to spoof routing info. You can run programs that will look for open ports, then bounce off that server, if done right it will spoof the origin, but that's fairly difficult, not an amateur hack.

Anonymizing services do not spoof routing either. They show up in the trace and those services will roll over on anyone using them for death threats.
--------
You tube Eucharist Challenge starring Wild Bill "Don" O'Heuwwe

Capital Dan wrote: And it's your responsibility, because....?

It's not my responsibility, but it's my right and I'm choosing to bring it to their attention for a few reasons:

1) I use 1-800 Flowers' Business Gift services heavily. That said, I'd prefer if my rather substantial monthly account balance did not subsidize the dispersal of hate-mail and death threats.

2) As a business owner, I understand that a rogue employee can cause enormous damage to a brand if the situation is not handled quickly and correctly. But that said, rogue employees can go undetected for long periods of time if everybody works on the "somebody else must have told them" principle. As such, I'm acting in the same manner that I hope my clients would act in this situation.

All that said, why should I be forced to explain myself to you anyway? Whether or not I recommend that 1-800 Flowers investigate an unfortunate incident makes no difference to you at all. Whether or not I provide contact information to others who wish to share their personal concerns also makes no difference to you.

As such, please take your own advice, and be quiet about things that don't pertain to you. Or if you must nose about, at least refrain from turning us all into hysterical caricatures.

#416

It's another to spoof all the routing information. It would take someone with an advanced understanding of internet mail handling AND specific knowledge of the 1-800-FLOWERS mail system.

You're right.

It's very hard to spoof routing info. You can run programs that will look for open ports, then bounce off that server, if done right it will spoof the origin, but that's fairly difficult, not an amateur hack.

Anonymizing services do not spoof routing either. They show up in the trace and those services will roll over on anyone using them for death threats.
--------
You tube Eucharist Challenge starring Wild Bill "Don" O'Heuwwe

Exactly, Pimbok.

Pimbok wrote:

//As such, please take your own advice, and be quiet about things that don't pertain to you//

I wish you would be able to do just that !

And finally, PZ, like I said, it's your call, but I do feel that the authorities should be notified and given copies of all the threats you've received.

PZ's call? Sure, to a point, but I hope you're not suggesting that the reporting of something as serious and as felonious as a death threat should be left only to the discretion of the victim. Such a position would be indefensible.

It's the responsibility of citizens to report serious crimes whether they are the victims or not.

There are some crimes that are only crimes if the victim says they are -- like taking a piece of property. It depends on their intentions.

But a crime of this nature is a crime no matter what, and even as third parties, private citizens, we are perfectly within our rights to report it.

I recently saw a show about a guy who got upset over the prostitution "epidemic" in his home town. So he grabbed a camera and roamed the streets to catch people in the act of solicitation. Then he sent it to the police and the local news.

I suppose I *could* do that, but I'm not inclined to spend that kind of of time. PZ posted this information publicly, and when I came here it basically landed in my lap. So I chose to do something about it. That's my right. It is potentially a crime, and that has nothing to do with whether PZ decides to act on it.

Anonymizing services do not spoof routing either. They show up in the trace and those services will roll over on anyone using them for death threats.

Yep. Proxies won't protect against criminal activities. They even say so when you sign on.

There is a reason for that. Homeland security and terrorism.

They will protect people with legimate privacy concerns. They won't go to Guantanomo and get tortured for some slimey crooks.

I've talked to members of law enforcement. They have fairly sophisticated computer forensics technology. They can sometimes even get data that has been "scrubbed" 25 times like some of those programs claim. Plus, by doing that, they would commit a crime too. Why would they jeopardize themselves to cover for some asshole coworker?

Evidence decays rapidly with time. The more people aware that something might be "evidence" before the police investigate, the faster the rate of decay.

Hard drives can be replaced.

I don't know who might be friend or foe among employees at some flower company. I don't know who might be sleeping with whom. I don't know if some IT guy might play a prank.

Best to assume as little as possible. And best not to tip your hand to the bad guys until you know what you want to do with 'em.

It's been almost a half hour... time for someone new to decode the headers and announce that they've sent 'Mr. Kroll' a nastygram and a pantload of spam.

Meh. Screwed up the blockquote thingy. Must be bedtime.

clinteas: we already understand how you feel. You made that abundantly clear with you cartoonishly silly post in which you assume that 1-800 Flowers management will be so incompetant as to refrain from doing any research, and will simply fire 'mkroll' based on a few e-mails from third parties.

In reality, I don't even know that a firing is guaranteed even if proved guilty. Certainly there would be consequences including some form of reprimand, but the idea that we have the ability to fire somebody by mob is absurd.

Anyway, thank you for repeatedly sharing your desire for everyone to do nothing. You've expressed your opinion quite neatly. Now go fuck yourself.

Capital Dan, you're going to look like a prize fighter after 15 rounds if you keep facepalming every time someone doesn't read the comments before taking action. The evidence is in the dozen or more "collage" jokes already in the thread that are nearly identical. Makes one wonder how many people found PZ's comments to ward off harrassing the email senders before they simply went and harrassed the email senders, patted themselves on the back, and toddled off to some other blog.

Like Breaking Spells, for example, where Melanie Kroll's email address is prominently displayed without any "please don't harrass this person" instructions or disclaimers.

Jim Lippard had a little more sense on his blog.

The bad grammar and spelling suggests that you are receiving plenty of email from people with English as a second or third language.

Often things are as they seem. But often enough, they aren't.

@Goldfishflakes # 378

Reading your position with respect to moderates: I can only surmise you never had to deal with implementation in the world of business. I agree that one needs to "take a strong stand when it comes to serious matters" and I question that the Cracker Crime represents a situation where one must abandon moderation for an extreme (Cracker denigration).

In other words, if I were to pick a pony around which we could rally, the issue wouldn't be about the relative worth of a saltine. It would be about individual rights (think gay marriage - so what's the big deal?) or birth control (yeah, let's go with abstinence to check all those teenage hormones) or abortion (a woman's right to choose vs her body being a piece of property).

Just because I think it wise not to attack every single issue with full force doesn't mean I'm "crouching" behind my desk at home. What message would you want Hermant to get out? Go raid churches to violate some religious icon for the sole purpose of pissing off the pious?

As far as religion goes - I really don't care what people believe as long as they don't try to shove it down my throat. Billy the blowhard tried to shove his religion down my throat by initiating a campaign to oust PZ from his position at UM.

Ergo, I sent a letter to Bruininks supporting PZ. Have you written yet?

#516,

The IT department and management can sort it out.

Or they can destroy evidence before the police obtain a warrant.

If the company's large enough to have an IT department the liklihood of your scenario is very small. Compounding a felony with a couple of others (wilful destruction of evidence and obstruction of justice) to protect a rogue employee is just not something I would worry about in this instance (whether hypothethical or otherwise).

#526,

The more people aware that something might be "evidence" before the police investigate, the faster the rate of decay.
...
I don't know who might be friend or foe among employees at some flower company. I don't know who might be sleeping with whom. I don't know if some IT guy might play a prank.
Best to assume as little as possible.

That's a lot of assumptions for someone who wishes not to assume much.

I wonder how they even managed to get to this site, considering the title of the blog and its academic nature; quite baffling.

raven wrote: Yep. Proxies won't protect against criminal activities. They even say so when you sign on.
---

This isn't always true. My company inadvertently ran an open proxy for a few days last week (a situation that was identified when an admin noticed that we were sustaining 200mb of data through a line that usually peaks at 20-30mb.)

Said proxy is generally used for a task where logging is not required, and as such logging was not enabled.

As such, we couldn't help LE even if we wanted to do so. The only possible penalty we'll get no matter what we do is the $10,000 burst charge we'll be paying the ISP for our network admin's firewalling error.

Why travel hundreds of miles to kill a stranger?

...when you could simply call 1-800-kill-guy and have us do it for you?

Dave @ 531 wrote :

//Makes one wonder how many people found PZ's comments to ward off harrassing the email senders before they simply went and harrassed the email senders//

Too many,and if someone dares to point the potential pitfalls and dangers of it out to them,the reaction is :

//Anyway, thank you for repeatedly sharing your desire for everyone to do nothing. You've expressed your opinion quite neatly. Now go fuck yourself.//

Speaks for itself I guess.

The bad grammar and spelling suggests that you are receiving plenty of email from people with English as a second or third language.

IOW, an American?

Dave W,

I posted a comment on Breaking Spells to try to mitigate the matter.

Actually, some of the most eloquent posters on this blog are native speakers of a language other than English.

Not me - unless you count Australian...

"IOW, an American?"

Come now, how many Americans actually speak more than one language?

#539
If they are Americans, perhaps they have difficulties with reading and writing, which makes me feel bad for pointing out the poor grammar. Also, I'm not one to speak too loudly about this, considering how much I'm slaughtering the English language right now. (No, it's not my first language.)

Come now, how many Americans actually speak more than one language?

ah, but it just SEEMS that english is their third language, see?

If they are Americans, perhaps they have difficulties with reading and writing, which makes me feel bad for pointing out the poor grammar.

yes.

and

it's just a joke. Really, don't feel bad.

*ahem*

Besides, don't US Christians believe that Jesus spoke English?

Liberal Atheist - you're doing fine. A pedant might point out that one should write 'poor grammar' and not 'bad grammar', but we're lucky there isn't one of those around...

The way I understand the law regarding threats like this is that they have to be specific in nature. If you say, "Fuck you asshole. I'm going to kill you," that's not specific enough for law enforcement to act on. But if you say "I'm going to be at your house tomorrow with a baseball bat," that's specific enough to act on.

The email from mkroll straddles the line. It gives an ultimate and a rough timeline, and a specific method. It's essentially saying, "Resign by the end of the month or I'll beat your brains in."

That may be specific enough for law enforcement to act.

Liberal Atheist - re: 'Bad grammar' - er, which you used in your first post, but not in your second. Silly me.

I don't know. When the guy who actually is the victim of the crime that you guys are going so bat-shit crazy about tells me not to harass those responsible for these crimes, I'm thinking that most rational folks would respect that and step away and assume that he's got things handled.

You guys are acting just like the hordes of loons who came flying out of Donohue's cave once the story of PZ's criticism hit them. "Let's write emails! Let's get the person fired! Vengance vengance vengance!"

It's worth noting that, unlike Capital Dan, PZ was not a complete and utter pompous concern troll ass about it.

Thanks again for the info PZ. Every single bit you make public, I will be sure to make the absolute best of it.

Do catholic's like gay porn???

I guess we will find out...

Posted by: robertm | July 14, 2008 2:54 AM

Do catholic's like gay porn??? I guess we will find out...

I guess it only took another hour Dlux...

Everyone, please try to read all the comments before posting. PZ doesn't want you to harass these people. Signing them up for porn mailing lists doesn't help anyone.

There are elements in here, also on the side of the 'angels', that remind me of Ross Thomas's title The Fools in Town are on Our Side( http://www.amazon.com/Fools-Town-Are-Our-Side/dp/0312315821/ref=pd_bbs_… )

Don't know for sure, but maybe taking PZ's plea for us staying out of this should have been taken at face value?
Rude, aggressive, and abusive e-mails are rather counter-productive. All they show is that the losers are evenly distributed on both sides.

Signing them up for porn mailing lists doesn't help anyone.

Well, except the people who distribute porn.

Posted by: Wowbagger | July 14, 2008 3:09 AM

Ha! Well, I guess you got me there.

You guys are acting just like the hordes of loons who came flying out of Donohue's cave once the story of PZ's criticism hit them.

except for one, rather large, difference.

Donowhore's horde reacted to a threat to a cracker.

not a crime.

These are actual death threats against a human, which is a crime.

not saying that all the kinds of responses people have noted here were completely rational or logical, but at least even the most irrational responder can point to something real, instead of something imaginary, like threatening a cracker.

Godless Atheists

First you steal Christmas.

Then you yank on our cracker.

Now you are coming for our flowers.

Cracker, SAVE US!!!

------------------
Wild Bill "Don" O'Heuwwe's Tube Eucharist Challenge

Ichthyic @490 Yes, as I stated, I consider these as threats. You don't get to paraphrase them in a court of law,however. The weaselly way they are worded might be sufficient to avoid a conviction. I am waiting for a real lawyer to comment. There must be one out there somewhere. Dr Benway@499 I don't know for a fact that the reasonable person standard applies here. Still hoping for a lawyer. Hell, I will even refer to them as an attorney if that would help bring them out.Kristjan Wager@493 I am referring to the spoken or written word. No one has sent PZ a noose yet.

The weaselly way they are worded might be sufficient to avoid a conviction.

but not an official investigation.

whether the abuser is prosecuted or not, would depend on the opinion of the local DA (not even a lawyer would help you for sure in determining whether a case like this would end up in court).

I think Raven, above, contributed relevant information as to whether these might be determined to be crimes or not, and it certainly seems to lean towards being worthy of criminal investigation.

BTW, evidently PZ thought so too, which is why he posted them publicly, as dumps instead of C&Ps.

What an atrocious spelling. Stuff like "college" versus "collage" are just inexcusable.

Moreover, I did write a polite messages to 1800flowers.com indicating what their user did. I used the feedback form at:

http://ww12.1800flowers.com/serviceform.do

Years ago, for reasons I cannot remember, a (BBC?) TV reporter was doing person-on-street questions someplace in the States, and (as far as I can recall) asking a question something like "what language did jesus speak?"

As you can imagine, there was a range of amusing answers, and some plausible ones, but the one that stuck in my mind--this is almost a verbatim quote--was "jesus speaks american just like it's wrote in the bible."

Well, I'm a lawyer but I think you may need one thats a little more conversant in US Code BUT, for what its worth I checked this out:

(From the US Code)

PART I--CRIMES

CHAPTER 41--EXTORTION AND THREATS

Sec. 875. Interstate communications

....
(c) Whoever transmits in interstate or foreign commerce any
communication containing any threat to kidnap any person or any threat
to injure the person of another, shall be fined under this title or
imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

Keep in mind that to define "threat" or any other wording for that matter is usually where you start delving into case law and, is ultimately a mater for a jury to decide based on the persuasiveness of either sides argument. Presumably you could also admit other extrinsic evidence to back your position up depending upon the evidentiary klaws of the jurisdiction.

Apart from the Federal law you probably also have multiple offences that these people could be charged with ( and note I said charged- not necesarily convicted of) under the two State jurisdictions involved.

For what its worth I could tell you I'd definately run with under the State laws in my country ( Australia) as, historically, the courts take a pretty dimm view of shit like this. What the penalty would be would be anyone's guess- here imprisonment would be unlikely on a first offence but maybe things are a little harsher there.

Don't send flowers, SEND DEATH THREATS!! Try 1800Flowers today!

So, it looks like "Steve Montemurro" owned a website back in 2006 before he started his new career in mailing people and making death threats. It seems to be a placeholder now, but look what my friend archive.org dug up! :)

http://web.archive.org/web/20060222021226/http://www.stevesteas.com/

Could this be the same Melanie Kroll? She's done Biblical murals so it's at least a remote possibility...

http://www.findamuralist.com/Ohio/melanie-kroll-avon-lake.php

"Fags"

But why capitalize it?

Damn it, I'm gonna lie awake all night wondering now. :-(

#562:
"Don't send flowers, SEND DEATH THREATS!! Try 1800Flowers today!"

Flawless victory!

#565:

I believe the person is trying to write a poem.

How would you feel if nice folks starting ranting against
Fags, and atheist like yourself.

Would if?

... I wish they were just ranting.

JC #436 "Obviously, the person has some issues, but how is this any different than what Prof. Myers said to begin with? He threatened physical assault against both Jesus Christ and the Holy Father. "

Yes, PZ threatened to harm an immortal, omnipotent, supernatural being that doesn't exist. Exactly the same (only not at all).

what I would like to know is how did you even
get a job at a collage.

I too would like to know how to get one of those jobs. Sounds like a cushy gig, even more so than being a tenured professor at a college.

well sir, you don't get to blaspheme and walk away from this

Blasphemy is a victimless crime.

No! Don't respond by spamming them back! These could very well be fake or phished email addresses (I think you can count on it for the first one).

I am almost willing to suggest they're not smart enough to phish or fake an email address.

"That sounds like America as it exists today; indeed it sounds like the anti-gay hate group that is the Roman Catholic Church and Pope Nazinger."

Jeff, if anyone does not embrace the homosexual lifestyle then they must be guilty of a hate crime right? They must also be homophobic, stupid, and they deserve to die.

Blah.... Blah... Blah... Yeah, nobody has ever heard that ignorance before. I thought that we would have evolved after millions of years and be smarter. I guess we need another few millions of years. LOL right, we won't make it another 100 years, let alone a few millions of years.

Jeff, if anyone does not embrace the homosexual lifestyle then they must be guilty of a hate crime right? They must also be homophobic, stupid, and they deserve to die.

you should be charged with a crime for the way you slaughtered that strawman.

clinteas wrote: Speaks for itself I guess.

---

Sorry clinteas, I forgot. Only you're allowed to tell other people what to do. My bad.

Hey everybody, do whatever clinteas tells you to do. He's your boss, doncha know! he's smarter than you, better than you, and you should really obey him in all matters.

If you don't, he'll get insolent about your refusal to obey, and then act like it's undeserved when you tell him to fuck off.

I think Myers will die of a heart attack before he will die because someone threatened him.

However, there would be parties all around the world. Ding dong the witch is dead. You remember the scene at the end of Return of the Jedi. LOL, well there you go!

A service like spamcop.net can take all the hard work from grokking those headers.

"you should be charged with a crime for the way you slaughtered that strawman"

First you have to prove it is a strawman. I am just giving some common knowledge.

I find it interesting that people would provoke a particular religious group, like, say, Catholicism which is about 1 billion strong, and then engage in pontification about what hypocrites they are when you have a few dingbats come out of the woodwork and break out in hysterics when you have insulted what is most sacred to them.

Cook used force to take the Eucharist and then kept it behind locked doors for a week. He then sent it back to the church with a letter saying he did so because the letter of some showed that reason worked better than force. Should not have reason been enough, then, for him to convince the Catholic students to take the host and hold it in his possession for a week?

Then Myers here reacts to the anger of the Catholics by saying he would pull out all the stops to desecrate a host. Keep in mind that Catholics believe that a host is the body. blood, soul, and divinity of the same Jesus Christ who bid them to deny their very lives for him above all else - and who gave up his own life for them. When Catholics react in anger then, to these actions, it shouldn't be a surprise. There is no excuse for threatening one the way Myers has been threatened. The guy who did so has what's coming to him at 1-800-FLOWERS. Myers' words are aimed, among other things, at further stoking the anger already provoked within Catholics. It shouldn't come as a surprise that some jerk(s) have responded like this.

The intellectual exhibit here is to point out the irony of the of the hypocrisy due to the intolerance latent in Catholics who profess a religion of love and peace. Isn't it rather intolerant, however, to the religion of Catholics to propose desecrating what they hold most dear? Isn't it rather hypocritical to point out others' intolerance toward you when you are intolerant toward them? And, no, the shoe doesn't only fit with Catholics because they're the ones purporting to profess love and peace and so forth whereas someone like Myer's is not. Jesus didn't tolerate sin; he loved the sinner, hated the sin. ("Neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more." John 8:11) To be intolerant of other's intolerance is justified. The crux is how one acts on this intolerance. Myers and the 1-800-FLOWERS guy are equally culpable of irresponsibly acting from intolerance.

I am a Pastafarian and a believer in the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I am enraged by the hate crimes and blasphemy committed daily by un-believers who blithely consume the body of Our Savior in the form of spaghetti, fettuccine and even ramen noodles, without proper reverence for its holiness.

Does anybody know to whom I should make the appropriate death threats and demands to have such blasphemers fired from their jobs? I suppose I could start with Bill Donoghue.

I find it interesting that people would provoke a particular religious group, like, say, Catholicism which is about 1 billion strong, and then engage in pontification about what hypocrites they are when you have a few dingbats come out of the woodwork and break out in hysterics when you have insulted what is most sacred to them.

Cook used force to take the Eucharist and then kept it behind locked doors for a week. He then sent it back to the church with a letter saying he did so because the letter of some showed that reason worked better than force. Should not have reason been enough, then, for him to convince the Catholic students to take the host and hold it in his possession for a week?

Then Myers here reacts to the anger of the Catholics by saying he would pull out all the stops to desecrate a host. Keep in mind that Catholics believe that a host is the body. blood, soul, and divinity of the same Jesus Christ who bid them to deny their very lives for him above all else - and who gave up his own life for them. When Catholics react in anger then, to these actions, it shouldn't be a surprise. There is no excuse for threatening one the way Myers has been threatened. The guy who did so has what's coming to him at 1-800-FLOWERS. Myers' words are aimed, among other things, at further stoking the anger already provoked within Catholics. It shouldn't come as a surprise that some jerk(s) have responded like this.

The intellectual exhibit here is to point out the irony of the of the hypocrisy due to the intolerance latent in Catholics who profess a religion of love and peace. Isn't it rather intolerant, however, to the religion of Catholics to propose desecrating what they hold most dear? Isn't it rather hypocritical to point out others' intolerance toward you when you are intolerant toward them? And, no, the shoe doesn't only fit with Catholics because they're the ones purporting to profess love and peace and so forth whereas someone like Myer's is not. Jesus didn't tolerate sin; he loved the sinner, hated the sin. ("Neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more." John 8:11) To be intolerant of other's intolerance is justified. The crux is how one acts on this intolerance. Myers and the 1-800-FLOWERS guy are equally culpable of irresponsibly acting from intolerance.

@ 575 :

LOL
pimbok,I pray for you.

#578: Easy.

"Jeff, if anyone does not embrace the homosexual lifestyle then they must be guilty of a hate crime right?"

That's a straw-man. I don't embrace the homosexual lifestyle. I support their rights, but I don't embrace their lifestyle. Am I guilty of a hate crime?

http://www.spamcop.net/

that IS useful.

thanks for the tip, grinch.

Cook used force to take the Eucharist

good thing he didn't file an assault claim against the woman at the church who forcibly tried to take it from HIM then.

oh wait, he did.

nice try at reversal, there, Richard, but the only force used was against Cook himself, not the other way round.

I know, you can't believe it.

*yawn*

Richard,No 579 confabulated:

//Cook used force to take the Eucharist and then kept it behind locked doors for a week//

He carried it outside in his mouth to show it to a friend,was manhandled in the process,then kept it in a ziplock bag for a week.

Is that an attempt at stating the most possible lies in one post?

"Yes, PZ threatened to harm an immortal, omnipotent, supernatural being that doesn't exist. Exactly the same (only not at all)."

Oh, he exists alright. When Myers dies it will be already too late. He needs to wake up before he dies. He just outright rejects and dismisses God, but that will not go unpunished.

You know when the police say that ignorance of the law is no excuse and they go ahead and punish you anyway. Well just think about that for a minute with God. Now think that because you rejected him and tried to ignore God and pretend that he does not exist. Well ignorance of God is no excuse and you will burn in Hell. Hell is not for human kind really. It is for Satan and his demons and that is where you are going to end up for rejecting God.

When you reject God and try to come up with some excuse why you think he doesn't exist, God doesn't play around when you reject him.

That's a straw-man. I don't embrace the homosexual lifestyle.

actually, TrollKing's poot was a strawman because it wasn't Jeff's argument at all. He was attacking an imaginary argument that nobody had ever made on the thread, in fact.

...not to say that your reasoning as to why it simply was a BAD argument aren't on the mark as well.

Richard (#581), IT'S JUST A CRACKER!

You know, there was a time when even Christians thought that it was just a cracker; that it only represented Christ metaphorically. What happened to change that?

"That's a straw-man. I don't embrace the homosexual lifestyle. I support their rights, but I don't embrace their lifestyle. Am I guilty of a hate crime?"

Not really. Embracing their lifestyle is what I ment by supporting their rights. That is the same thing. You don't have to be a homosexual to embrace their lifestyle.

When Myers dies it will be already too late

well, one thing is for sure.

It's obviously already too late for you, who apparently lost your sanity long ago.

pity.

"Ahhh - the warm glow of Christian love."

Yeah, because atheists do not burn churches down or anything. Thanks for proving how mentally challenged you are.

KKing #586, which god are you talking about?

Agdistis, Ah Puch, Ahura Mazda, Alberich, Amaterasu, An, Anat, Andvari, Anshar, Anu, Aphrodite, Apollo, Apsu, Ares, Artemis, Asclepius, Athena, Athirat, Athtart, Atlas, Baal, Ba Xian, Bacchus, Balder, Bast, Bellona, Bergelmir, Bes, Bixia Yuanjin, Bragi, Brahma, Brigit, Camaxtli, Ceres, Ceridwen, Cernunnos, Chac, Chalchiuhtlicue, Charun, Cheng-huang, Cybele, Dagon, Damkina, Davlin, Demeter, Diana, Di Cang, Dionysus, Ea, El, Enki, Enlil, Epona, Ereskigal, Farbauti, Fenrir, Forseti, Freya, Freyr, Frigg, Gaia, Ganesha, Ganga, Garuda, Gauri, Geb, Geong Si, Hades, Hanuman, Helios, Heng-o, Hephaestus, Hera, Hermes, Hod, Hoderi, Hoori, Horus, Hotei, Hestia, Huitzilopochtli, Hsi-Wang-Mu, Hygeia, Inanna, Inti, Ishtar, Isis, Ixtab, Izanaki, Izanami, Jesus, Juno, Jupiter, Kagutsuchi, Kartikeya, Khepri, Ki, Kingu, Kinich Ahau, Kishar, Krishna, Kukulcan, Lakshmi, Liza, Loki, Lugh, Magna Mater, Marduk, Mars, Medb, Mercury, Mimir, Minerva, Mithras, Morrigan, Mot, Mummu, Nammu, Nanna, Nanna, Nanse, Nemesis, Nephthys, Neptune, Nergal, Ninazu, Ninhurzag, Nintu, Ninurta, Njord, Nut, Odin, Ohkuninushi, Ohyamatsumi, Orgelmir, Osiris, Ostara, Pan, Parvati, Poseidon, Quetzalcoatl, Rama, Re, Rhea, Sabazius, Sarasvati, Shiva, Seshat, Seti, Shamash, Shapsu, Shen Yi, Shiva, Shu, Si-Wang-Mu, Sin, Sirona, Surya, Susanoh, Tawaret, Tefnut, Tezcatlipoca, Thanatos, Thor, Tiamat, Tlaloc, Tonatiuh, Toyo-Uke-Bime, Tyche, Tyr, Utu, Uzume, Venus, Vesta, Vishnu, Vulcan, Xipe, Xi Wang-mu, Xochipilli, Xochiquetzal, Yahweh, Yam, Yarikh, Ymir, Yu-huang, Yum Kimil, or Zeus?

#587:

I was trolled. How embarassing.

He carried it outside in his mouth to show it to a friend,was manhandled in the process,then kept it in a ziplock bag for a week.

minor corrections, based on what I read:

-He dropped it into his hand after it was given to him by the priest.
-The priest made him put it in his mouth.
-He walked back to his pew with it in his mouth, then dropped it back in his hand to show his friend.
-He was assaulted by a female "church leader" who saw it in his hand and tried to force him to give it back (note: NOT to put it back in his mouth).
-After repeatedly asking that the woman stop assaulting him, he decided to leave the church entirely.
-He put the cracker in a baggie.
-He, and the UCF PUBLICLY funded Catholic Church, filed counter claims with various official agencies.
-He received death threats and threats of expulsion, as well as "explanations" as to why some Catholics obsess about crackers.
-He decided to return the cracker.

am I missing anything?

btw, I suspect KKing is yet another alias for:

Naz, k8, promo, baker, PZ is a fool, Burns, rumrunner, Dobbs, NYTs, KKKAthiest, Andy, CDV, BradJ, Brett, b7, PCD, NVFU, Your daddy, facebock, baker and several other loud-mouthed asses who have been braying here

#589:
"Not really. Embracing their lifestyle is what I [meant] by supporting their rights."

That may be what you meant, but that was not how it translated in my mind (or apparently Ichthyic's).

Not really. Embracing their lifestyle is what I ment by supporting their rights. That is the same thing. You don't have to be a homosexual to embrace their lifestyle.

I'll sketch the strawman for you. We did not call you a bigot just because you disagree with what homosexual people do with their personal lives.

We call you a bigot because you actively try to *impose* your belief system on other people as law and are not tolerant of their views. Clear?

Yeah, because atheists do not burn churches down or anything

we burn churches now?

damn, another memo missed.

"Agdistis, Ah Puch, Ahura Mazda, Alberich, Amaterasu, An, Anat, Andvari, Anshar, Anu, Aphrodite, Apollo, Apsu, Ares, Artemis, Asclepius, Athena, Athirat, Athtart, Atlas, Baal, Ba Xian, Bacchus, Balder, Bast, Bellona, Bergelmir, Bes, Bixia Yuanjin, Bragi, Brahma, Brigit, Camaxtli, Ceres, Ceridwen, Cernunnos, Chac, Chalchiuhtlicue, Charun, Cheng-huang, Cybele, Dagon, Damkina, Davlin, Demeter, ..."

I wonder if Tom Lehrer ever made a song about that?

"It's obviously already too late for you, who apparently lost your sanity long ago."

Well, maybe you think so. However, God is real and you too will find out some day. It's not really a threat it is a promise. Every knee shall bow and every tounge will confess that Jesus Christ is God.

It is what it is. God gives you free will and you may use that to do what you will, but you will be judged at the end of your life on what you have done good and done bad.

You may think it is a fairy tale, but that is just your way with dealing with things you don't want to be true.

I wish I could do that too. I wasn't really robbed, or raped that was just a fairy tale.

Thanks for proving how mentally challenged you are.

Oh, the irony. KKing has a pretty good shot at being rated the stupidest Godbot who has posted here in the last few days, and that is mighty damn stupid.

#600:
"You may think it is a fairy tale, but that is just your way with dealing with things you don't want to be true."

As opposed to what? Wanting it to be true doesn't make it true.

@KKing

Oh, he exists alright.

Do you happen to have any empirical evidence to support that assertion?

Well, maybe you think so.

maybe? I don't recall qualifying my opinion.

done thumping your tub there, rev?

good, good. Now run along and take your meds.

"we burn churches now?"

You are on this forum too much and have not paid attention to the news. Yes it is 100 percent true. There have been kids who are Atheists that decided they would burn down churches.

Then again when you promote an atheist world view you are also promoting a lack of tolerance and corupted morals. See Myers own posting a few months back when an atheist couple had sex in a church where there is no respect or tolerance for anyone.

However, God is real and you too will find out some day.

What makes you so sure? And which God are we talking about? Personally, I hope that the afterlife is really like a story I half remember* about some North American Indian tribe whose tale was that after death an owl would examine your wrist. If you had the proper tattoo, you got into the good afterlife. Otherwise you got tossed into a pit. I've always thought that it would be cool if the unspecified tattoo was "666".

*And therefore have probably screwed up in some way.

@KKing

God is real

Again with the assertion. I can't wait to see what evidence you have to support such an improbable entity.

"Then again when you promote an atheist world view you are also promoting a lack of tolerance and corupted morals."

http://www.kobrascorner.com/philo/not-antichrist-but-anti-christ.php

Wrong again.

I'm glad you manage to keep a smile on your face inspite of these emails.

Have a good day, I look forward to more amusing messages.

I wish I could do that too. I wasn't really robbed, or raped that was just a fairy tale.

oh, I get it, you just are in the wrong forum.

My apologies, this is the second time I've mistaken a troll for a survivor in denial. You'd think I'd be getting better at it by now, but I have to claim no formal training.

you want to go here, and get some help:

http://www.aftersilence.org/

good luck.

They must also be homophobic, stupid, and they deserve to die.

In your case, one and two, certainly. But don't you think you deserve eternal life in the company of your loving creator, KKing? Or are you just another cowardly hypocritical Christian shit who spews all that life everlasting garbage but knows deep down that it's all bullshit?

"What makes you so sure? And which God are we talking about?"

By all means, go ahead and meet him. Go find out for yourself. He is real and he is light.

There is no proof that I can provide you to show what I know is real. Not that there isn't any proof, but you won't believe anything anyone else says or shows you until you see for yourself. So by all means go for it.

You won't like what you see.

You won't be able to handle the truth.

And, no, the shoe doesn't only fit with Catholics because they're the ones purporting to profess love and peace and so forth whereas someone like Myer's is not. Jesus didn't tolerate sin; he loved the sinner, hated the sin. ("Neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more." John 8:11) To be intolerant of other's intolerance is justified.

So then it's justified to be intolerant of Jesus's intolerance of sin.

The crux is how one acts on this intolerance. Myers and the 1-800-FLOWERS guy are equally culpable of irresponsibly acting from intolerance.

Let's see, how does Jesus act on his intolerance of sin? The way the flowers guy and Myers acted are a drop in the bucket compared to the way Jesus acts from intolerance.

"There is no proof that I can provide you to show what I know is real. Not that there isn't any proof, but you won't believe anything anyone else says or shows you until you see for yourself. So by all means go for it."

Actually, there is proof that we would believe: Scientific evidence.

None of this: http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm

PZ, Paul, Professor, and all the other names you get called in your emails - I think I speak for many of us devoted blog-readers of yours when I say - we support you and especially this publication policy!
Thanks for making me (us) think about many different and varied things every day we log on to this wonderful site. Just because I felt that a nice note of support once in a while in between the hate mails could be nice for your general mood :)

Dianne,

he is talking about the north american god,you know the dude with long hair and a texan accent that walked out of mesopotamia 5000 years ago and founded the american state of Israel,whose descendants then immigrated to the US from the UK and finally conquered their one country under god.

Gee,have we ever attracted a bunch of thick people in the last few days,its truly amazing.

There have been kids who are Atheists that decided they would burn down churches.

Not that it matters, since "they" aren't "we" regardless of what they believe, but they were Jewish, not atheists.

@KKing

There is no proof that I can provide you to show what I know is real.

And you still want us to take you seriously?

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick

"There is no proof that I can provide you to show what I know is real. Not that there isn't any proof, but you won't believe anything anyone else says or shows you until you see for yourself. So by all means go for it."

I'd like to see what you have as proof, let me make the determination whether it's valid for myself. Don't just say I won't accept it before you let me evaluate it, otherwise I'm forced to assume you don't have any proof and are simply posturing.

So what is your proof?

And you still want us to take you seriously?

I think that's too complex a concept for KKing to formulate.

I'm forced to assume you don't have any proof and are simply posturing.

We already know that, since he thinks he doesn't deserve to die.

The sad thing about KKing is that by not trying to justify his beliefs. For as it says in the bible:
1 Peter 3:15 be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you

Come on KKing, follow the bible. Give a justification for your beliefs.

#311 "Letters like this always make me wonder why so many people who generally identify as democrats are against concealed carry or firearms in general. While I think its just random puffery nuttiness...I'd still be packing were I PZ."

Think.... Try harder....Nearlyyyyyy.... Thats it you got it!!! Should read.

"Letters like this always make me wonder why so many people who generally identify as REPUBLICANS are FOR concealed
firearms".

That wasn't so hard now was it.

"In your case, one and two, certainly. But don't you think you deserve eternal life in the company of your loving creator, KKing? Or are you just another cowardly hypocritical Christian shit who spews all that life everlasting garbage but knows deep down that it's all bullshit?"

Thanks for insulting me, but it really doesn't anything to prove you know anything. It just makes you look ignorant.

Nobody deserves Eternal life by default.

1) "The wages of Sin is death" - (Romans 6:23)

This means spiritual death not dying physically. This means Hell.

2) "Christ died for our Sins" - (1st Corinthians 15:3)

Jesus Christ died for our sins and took all of our sins using a sacrifice on him.

3) "The Gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." - (Romans 6:23)

4) "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." - (Romans 10:13)

This means faithfully and truthfully calling upon the name of the Lord will be saved.

All of this is 100 percent real and I would stake my life on it.

You know, I keep pinching myself and yep, I am definitely awake. Pity, at first I thought I was having a strange nightmare with the odd bit of comedy thrown in to stop me waking up screaming. If it wasn't for the fact that I am surrounded by and using modern technology I would suspect that I had slipped through a time portal back to the days of the inquisition. This still is the 21st Century. Isn't it?

#623: An armed society is a polite society.

If the Christian faith is so against homosexuality and anal sex, than what are all you guys doing with a stick up your ass?!

I pray you all find a way to safely remove these sticks.

regarding the godlessgeeks.com link above, sounds like KKing is making the Argument From Intelligence:

(1) Look, there's really no point in me trying to explain the whole thing to you stupid Atheists -- it's too complicated for you to understand. God exists whether you like it or not.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

#624: Then why don't you?

Next time there's a bank robbery, run in there and stand with your arms wide open and proclaim, "You cannot kill me! Leave those hostages, cretin!"

Then you'll die, go to heaven, and the world will be without one more person with a dangerously inept mind.

...and also #32:

ARGUMENT FROM SMUGNESS
(1) God exists.
(2) I don't give a crap whether you believe it or not; I have better things to do than to try to convince you morons.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

KKing,

//Nobody deserves Eternal life by default. //

how many altar boys would one have to impale,or witches to burn,or jews who desecrate the host to burn at the stake,to earn eternal life,exactly? Could you give me some ballpark figure here?
Is that something like the medical curriculum,got to have done 20 colonoscopies or something?
Inquiring minds want to know !

All of this is 100 percent real and I would stake my life on it.

I'm calling Poe on this guy. How many people would rationally say their beliefs are 100% real and offer no evidence?

Thanks for insulting me, but it really doesn't anything to prove you know anything. It just makes you look ignorant.

Strawman, and no, sorry, it doesn't.

Nobody deserves Eternal life by default.

No sequitur. Here's the question again, dumbfuck: "But don't you think you deserve eternal life in the company of your loving creator, KKing?"

Lao, #599 - He certainly should have done, so I wrote it for him. Here's the first verse.

I don't believe in Jahweh, Buddha, Ganesh, Zeus or Allah
And I don't believe in Limbo, Hades, Heaven or Valhalla
I don't believe in Brahma, Karma, Aphrodite or Jupiter
I've read both of the Testaments but can't say which is stupiter
I've got no time for Odin, Ceres, Poseidon or Kingu
They're as fictional as Sherlock Homes or Arthur Dent or Pingu
When I hear a psalm or mantra then I can't suppress my laughter
'Cos the one thing gods are good for is to name the plates after
I think that Christianity, Islam and Scientology
Are all a scam that preys upon a quirk of our psycholgy
I care not if you curse me by the names of Baal or Shiva,
For I am the very model of an Fervent Unbeliever.

All of this is 100 percent real and I would stake my life on it.

How would you go about doing that? Just saying it, but not doing it, makes you look like a liar and a coward.

...aaaaand, #81:

ARGUMENT FROM INEVITABILITY
(1) I have proof that God exists.
(2) I won't bother to tell you what it is because, being Atheists, you would be hostile to the conclusion anyway.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

thanks for the link Kobra

Gah. "Plates" should be "planets", of course. Bother my inept tying fingers.

#634:
"I don't believe in Jahweh, Buddha, Ganesh, Zeus or Allah
And I don't believe in Limbo, Hades, Heaven or Valhalla
I don't believe in Brahma, Karma, Aphrodite or Jupiter
I've read both of the Testaments but can't say which is stupider
I've got no time for Odin, Ceres, Poseidon or Kingu
They're as fictional as Sherlock Homes or Arthur Dent or Pingu
When I hear a psalm or mantra then I can't suppress my laughter
'Cos the one thing gods are good for is to name the plates after
I think that Christianity, Islam and Scientology
Are all a scam that preys upon a quirk of our psychology
I care not if you curse me by the names of Baal or Shiva,
For I am the very model of an Fervent Unbeliever."

I am in awe. Seriously. That was awesome.

I'm calling Poe on this guy. How many people would rationally say their beliefs are 100% real and offer no evidence?

Did I miss some reason to suspect KKing of being rational?

not bad for a first crack at it, MissPrism.

I'd say that's a keeper.

have you considered doing a vid of you singing it and put it up on youtube?

#639: I know, right?

RE: KKing Post #624

"All of this is 100 percent real and I would stake my life on it."

Here is a fun way to prove your faith!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yD_Igdn9BQ

Let us know how that works out for you!

MissPrism,

well done !
Lets have PZ and Dawkins rap to that on Youtube !!

#640: I second that motion. Email me kobrasrealm@gmail.com if you want me to edit the audio tracks (my brother is a rap artist; I know how to use Adobe Audition).

#623: "An armed society is a polite society."

Think.... Try Harder.... Nearly.

These death threats all originated from YOUR polite society!

Perhaps you'd care to look at the statistices for gun related crime in the US as opposed to some of the more "Impolite" societys on the planet.

Not really working out very well is it?

Please take my poll on the subject :

http://globalconfederacy.blogspot.com/2008/07/host-desecration-and-athe…

#645: I'm speaking in general, of course.

How many school shootings would happen if all the teachers had guns? Not many.

Did I miss some reason to suspect KKing of being rational?

No, but I'm sure he thinks he is.

#646: I'd like to recommend another option:

Who cares about "spreading atheism?" If someone's smart enough, they'll come to the logical conclusion on their own behest.

"Come on KKing, follow the bible. Give a justification for your beliefs."

I can give them the reasons why but they won't believe them and they will bash whatever reasons I give.

For example I could say that Early Christians were not just killed for believing what the did they were torchured for something they felt strongly about. So many of them were torchured. Now it seems illogical that they would not just be killed (which is the easy way out) but they were torchured.

Paul who was called Saul used to kill and torchure Christians himself but he was turned and did a 180 and became one of the most known Christians in history. How could that happen like that if it was not real?

There are people that have died and seen God and saw that there is an afterlife. Some of them used to be Atheists.

There was a stone tablet that just came out in the news a week ago and it was from the Jews and they have said it was about a messiah who would die and rise up again after 3 days.

There are lots of reasons why I believe. I could keep going but nobody here is going to believe anything that has not been scientifically tested with science. It's like a blind person who has been blind from birth and a person who can see trying to describe what the color red is. He isn't going to get it and neither are these blind people on here.

Kobra,

how many school shootings would happen if none of the schoolkids had guns?

Not many.
Like,in the rest of the civilized world.

No, but I'm sure he thinks he is.

Missing the point. Go back and read what I was responding to.

#651: We could argue this for a while, but it will get us nowhere.

"There are lots of reasons why I believe."

Belief is not truth.

Previously I wrote that KKing has a pretty good shot at being rated the stupidest Godbot who has posted here in the last few days. #650 firmly sews it up.

RE: KKing post #650

"There was a stone tablet that just came out in the news a week ago and it was from the Jews and they have said it was about a messiah who would die and rise up again after 3 days."

How about a differnt view of that tablet hmm?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article4295804.ece

btw, I suspect KKing is yet another alias for:

Naz, k8, promo, baker, PZ is a fool, Burns, rumrunner, Dobbs, NYTs, KKKAthiest, Andy, CDV, BradJ, Brett, b7, PCD, NVFU, Your daddy, facebock, baker and several other loud-mouthed asses who have been braying here

Possible. Or it could be Keith. Compare #576
"I think Myers will die of a heart attack before he will die because someone threatened him.

However, there would be parties all around the world."

With,
"I remain disappointed that PZ's liver, pancreas, lungs, and brain haven't exploded with virulent forms of cancer yet but perhaps before long. I'm keeping an extra hundred dollar bill handy to buy a few rounds of beers in a local pub in great celebration."

I would change my name too if I made a prediction that Expelled was going to change biology, make billions and end up with Myers fired.

If there are not the same guy, it just goes to show how "Christian love" doesn't stop these guys from wishing people dead.

There are lots of reasons why I believe.

Lots of people in lots of religions have martyred themselves for their beliefs. that doesn't show your one to be true.

People change their beliefs, and the conversion of Saul still isn't evidence.

Near Death Experiences show whatever the beliefs of the society are. You don't see Hindu's seeing a Christian God.

That tablet pre-dated Jesus by about 70 years. The story of sacrifice and resurrection was common around that time.

If that's the best you can do, those are some pretty weak reasons.

Please let's not have a gun control debate? Pretty please? It ends up going nowhere, and people who aren't citizens of the US aren't really bothered.

How about a differnt view of that tablet hmm?

Most likely that same view got twisted in KKing's tiny little brain to invert its significance.

I forgot this:

I thoroughly despise the likes of Donohue and Bakker
And posit that the Eucharist is just a frackin' cracker.

#658:
107. ARGUMENT FROM MARTYRDOM
(1) The apostles would not have died for something they knew wasn't true.
(2) Atheist gives examples of martyrs outside Christendom.
(3) Obviously those examples were fooled by Satan.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

"Here is a fun way to prove your faith!!"

That is not how God works. You have to be willing to submit to his will. He will not submit to yours.

#651 "I'm speaking in general, of course.

How many school shootings would happen if all the teachers had guns? Not many."

You must stop it. Please look at school shooting statistics between countries with strong gun control laws and the USA.

Figure it out already.

am I commenter #666???

666 GET!

107. ARGUMENT FROM MARTYRDOM
(1) The apostles would not have died for something they knew wasn't true.
(2) Atheist gives examples of martyrs outside Christendom.
(3) Obviously those examples were fooled by Satan.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

I'm in stiches here. That's hilarious!

damn you Kobra!!!

RE: KKing post #663

Well you sure aren't one to prove your faith then! I thought you were certain that "All of this is 100 percent real and I would stake my life on it."

Geez, I'm not sure what you mean by saying that you are willing to stake your life on it when you are obviously NOT willing to stake your life on it.....

Actions speak louder than words.

#664: Will do. Now let's get back to the matter at hand, shall we?

KKing #663 "That is not how God works. You have to be willing to submit to his will. He will not submit to yours."

Classic case of right wing authoritarianism.

does God heal amputees?

That is not how God works. You have to be willing to submit to his will. He will not submit to yours.

But apparently he's subject to your claims about how he works.

Sigh. These threads are ultimately depressing, revealing the poverty of thought and the bad faith of such a large fraction of humanity. G'night, folks.

RE Kobra post #666

ahahahah oh my! ahahaha that's wonderful! PERFECT!

That is not how God works. You have to be willing to submit to his will. He will not submit to yours.

What about the millions of people who believe in a different religion? For example, in India *millions* submit themselves to the will of the Hindu Gods. Why is their faith any less than yours? They are absolutely convinced that their gods are true, just like you are convinced that the bible is the word of god.

The only reason you believe in Christianity is that you were born in a location where that religion was dominant. If you were born in India instead, you'd most probably be a Hindu.

Perhaps if you take a class or borrow a book on comparative religion, it might broaden your perspective. Besides, since you are so sure of your religion, it's not going to hurt.

#668: Haha :P.

I'm not sure that Myers is going to like that I worked around the lack of the use of the IMG tag to post an image. I hope he finds it funny, though. Image taken from a RichardDawkins.net forum discussion.

"That is not how God works. You have to be willing to submit to his will. He will not submit to yours."

Yeah, well, I'm not really into the Dom/sub thing. Who knew God was so kinky?

Sorry, but Jesus Christ and the Holy Father are not recognized citizens of the US by our government. - Neural T.

They'd better watch out then! Since they must evidently (being omniscient) be party to Osama bin Laden's whereabouts and plans, they risk getting kidnapped, sent to Guantanamo or one of the secret "facilities", and waterboarded. Come to think of it, I'd guess that makes it every patriotic American's duty to get hold of consecrated wafers (since these are actually bits of these non-citizens) and turn them over to the federal authorities for torture enhanced interrogation.

#650 firmly sews it up.

I think 650 actually caused me to lose a few brain cells.

yikes.

TrollKing should have put a warning at the top of that post:

"DANGER! Reading the following may cause irreparable brain damage!"

I'm suing for emotional and physical damages.

it's far, far beyond mere stupidity.
Deranged comes to mind.

if you submit to the will of god, you will accept THIS text as a proof of her existence. therefore submitting yourself to god is all that is required to prove that she exists
/reboot brain

#677:
What? You didn't know that God was kinky? Why else would he spend so much time dictating our sex lives?

Hmm... God with a strap-on...

#679:

Why bother suing? There isn't enough therapy in the world.

The only reason you believe in Christianity is that you were born in a location where that religion was dominant. If you were born in India instead, you'd most probably be a Hindu.

Funny, I figured this out all on my own around, oh, 9 or 10 years old. Maybe 11. "If Christianity is the one true religion, why is it that about 2% of Chinese are Christians? Would a loving God hate the Chinese? Or is it that religion is ethnocentric?"

yeah, I was a precocious one. Tested at 153 IQ, for whatever IQ scores are worth...

An armed society is a polite society.

Posted by: Kobra | July 14, 2008 5:57 AM

'Polite' as in 'shit scared'?

Kobra, I'm actually shocked.

I think that might be the first time I've seen an image posted in a comment on a Pharyngula thread, over the last 3 years.

Oh, I am so going to use that pre tag to insert images from now on.

still, I can understand why images aren't allowed.

these threads get way too huge as it is.

#684: That discussion is over for now.

#685: It's called goatse.

That trick's too good not to try:

Naz,kate,promo,andy,Dobbs,rumrunner,Burns and baker,
posting under false pretense did not impress your maker !

Hm,hey,its my third language ok !
LOL

What? You didn't know that God was kinky? Why else would he spend so much time dictating our sex lives?

He also approves of incest...

I have to give God props for one thing though... he must like lesbianism because that was not condemned, only man-on-man sex...

KKing,

Then again when you promote an atheist world view you are also promoting a lack of tolerance and corupted morals. See Myers own posting a few months back when an atheist couple had sex in a church where there is no respect or tolerance for anyone.

You see, already by implying that atheists have corrupted morals, you are the one who is promoting non respect and intolerance.

Your comment is deeply offensive to us.
Who do you think you are to give us lessons of morals ?

Don't you see that as long as the religious folks will maintain this notion that only them have the right to determine what is right or wrong, what is moral or not, we will have no choice than to react ?

You do not leave us any choice ? Do you understand ?
It is because of your intolerance, your fault of respect, your sense of moral superiority, your systematic attempt to intervene in order to change the laws of this country to suit your morals, and all of this based on ancient texts which were most evidently written by antique mesopotamian goatherders that WE DO NOT VALUE, that now more and more non believers all over the USA are starting to react and to provoke you.

BTW this is exactly what happened in the 60s and the 70s in many Western European countries, such as Scandinavia, Benelux, France, to a certain extent Great Britain, Germany but also Japan and the religious folks had to learn to deal with it. And they adapted, they became more tolerant, religious fundamentalism gradually faded away and nowadays non believers and religious folks can coexist in a society which is more tolerant of each others beliefs or non belief. So is this what you call an "atheist worldview", as you can see, it makes no sense.

Nothing will stop you from believing in God and enjoying your faith and its most sacred rituals, as many can still do it in those nations of Western Europe. But from now on, you will have to start by showing us a little more respect, which you have never ever done, if you want us to do the same. And you will have to accept, once and for all, that if laws and morals, are to be shared and accepted by ALL men, they have to be determined by men based on reason, and not by God, nor based on some antique texts written more than 2000 years ago.

#690:
Not quite.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/rom/1.html#26

#685: there is nothing magical about the tag (other than it is a permitted tag here), what made it work is the inline style which Kobra applied to the tag.

It should work with any HTML tag which is allowed in the comments; that is, style="background:#(hex color here) url(your url here)"

Incidentally I am pretty sure that quotes are not required inside the parentheses for the URL, but that doesn't seem to have prevented the image from appearing.

...oops, apologies for breaking my comment by not using HTML entities for < and >

Regarding the background image trick, Kobra, you're one smart cookie!

Hmmm, KKing claims that atheist kids are burning churches, now mention of NDEs, though that word not used.

Hmmm, I smell a Kenny.

Pax Nabisco

@ deang #400

It is so strange that they do that. It's like they don't have a logical bone in their body. Reminds me of Americans who respond to criticisms of the US by demanding that the critic stop scrutinizing the US and start criticizing whatever country is the enemy du jour.

They're not merely lacking the requisite critical thinking abilities to recognise and avoid indulging in such hypocrisy; they're also lacking the relevant religious education, viz Matthew 7:v3-5.

#693: Actually, there are a few tags it doesn't work for. <b> is one of them. It works for <p>, though.

there is nothing magical about the

it's not that it's magical, i just never considered using in-line style to insert background images before.

one gets used to using standard image tags, which are allowed at many forums.

case in point, like I said, I'm a regular here and I don't recall ever seeing someone place an image in a comment using that technique before, and I KNOW that there are quite a few people around here who work with html on a regular basis (myself included).

that said, I really would recommend not abusing it, or most likely sciblogs will figure out a way to curtail it entirely.

Jesus Dieted For Our Sins!

thiz iz a tezt

and I fucked up the tag. *sigh*

In the immortal words of Einstein, "Creativity is more important than knowledge." :D

In the meanwhile, Webster Cook -- the student who "stole" the magic cracker -- has filed an anti-hazing charge against Campus Catholic Ministries. The university's rules prohibit any campus organization from forcing students to consume any food against their wills as part of their anti-hazing prohibitions. It brings up some interesting questions.

The application of the phrase "magic cracker" to something in Florida has special connotations in itself that ought to make those who know the significance of the term "cracker" in that state giggle just a bit.

#624:

Bible quotes are not effective arguments here. Would you be convinced of something by quotes from the Koran, or from the Bhagavad Gita? Do you really think that the people here are ignorant of the bible?

Your knowledge of the bible is relatively weak, going by the quotes you give. You speak as if you have been indoctrinated by bible studies that single out a verse or two, followed by discussion about the meaning of these verses in relative isolation.

Assuming, for your sake, that the NT is an accurate reflection of real people of two thousand years ago, and is applicable today, lets look at that quote from Romans 6:23 "The wages of Sin is death". Read all of Romans, not just the one line. You will see that Paul is trying to convince his readers that the Law is not only not needed any more, but is almost evil, since it is impossible to lead a sinless life, and therefore by attempting to follow the law, the righteous (meaning those trying to do the right thing) get an automatic fail. The wages of sin is death means that trying to follow the Law leads to death. Don't fall into the trap of reading the word "righteous" to mean "arrogant and hypocritical", which is how Paul would have you read it. It means, as Jesus means it, to please God by your actions in accordance with His Law.

Paul clearly had no intention of following Jesus, for whom not one jot or iota of the law would pass away. His notion of Jesus has nothing to do with a real historical Jewish leader.

I challenge you to read the bible cover to cover. Try to read the deuterocanonical books as well - you will see in Wisdom that thinking and learning is a good thing (Paul tries to make out that people shouldn't think about their faith), and in Maccabees that the idea of a spiritual heaven is necessary when invading forces wipe out entire families in such a way that earthly rewards for good behaviour (even if left to succeeding generations) are no longer possible.

Good luck with your spiritual and intellectual journey. You may realise that the god of the NT is the product of smoke and mirrors and the natural desire to believe just as the people around you do.

JeffreyD,

I agree,it all smells like Kenny.Then again,"Kenny" at the same time is probably a meme for the state of mind of large parts of the catholic folks,so maybe htey are different people after all LOL

Good to see da boyz play with their new toys btw hehehe

#704: I know, I live in Florida. My mom didn't realize what I meant when I said, "Holy shit! Stupidest thing ever... or rather, stupidest thing yet: Some guy is receiving death threats for INSULTING A CRACKER!"

Yes, I do talk like that with my parents. Thanks for asking.

Wow. An estimated 700 comments in, like, 15 hours. Please, PZ, post on some arcane detail of a science topic so I can return to my habit of reading entire threads!

How many school shootings would happen if all the teachers had guns? Not many.

The teachers would just be shot first.

You are asking a completely wrong question. What you should be asking is why almost all school massacres so far have happened in the US of A.

You are new here. You might want to read the zillion gun control threads we've had so far. :-)

I can give them the reasons why but they won't believe them and they will bash whatever reasons I give.

How do you know?

For example I could say that Early Christians were not just killed for believing what the did they were torchured for something they felt strongly about. So many of them were torchured. Now it seems illogical that they would not just be killed (which is the easy way out) but they were torchured.

What utter nonsense. They were tortured to make them betray all their friends. The idea was to take the whole organization out at once.

Paul who was called Saul used to kill and torchure Christians himself but he was turned and did a 180 and became one of the most known Christians in history. How could that happen like that if it was not real?

You aren't really saying that it's impossible to become deeply convinced of something that is not true, are you?

There are people that have died and seen God and saw that there is an afterlife. Some of them used to be Atheists.

Near-death experiences can be induced even under conditions that are nowhere near life-threatening. Most importantly, the bright light is inevitable from the way vertebrate eyes work.

There was a stone tablet that just came out in the news a week ago and it was from the Jews and they have said it was about a messiah who would die and rise up again after 3 days.

And? Since there's such a prophecy in the Bible, we already know the idea is older.

Besides, "after 3 days" or "on the 3rd day"?

There are lots of reasons why I believe. I could keep going but nobody here is going to believe anything that has not been scientifically tested with science. It's like a blind person who has been blind from birth and a person who can see trying to describe what the color red is. He isn't going to get it and neither are these blind people on here.

If we are incapable of believing, why do you waste your time telling us we should believe?

Lots of people in lots of religions have martyred themselves for their beliefs.

Not only in religions!!! Political ideologies suffice entirely. Communism abounds in martyrs. The Stalinist PKK even had suicide bombers -- let me repeat it: these were people who were convinced that death was The End™, that there was no afterlife whatsoever, so, in their opinion, they made a greater sacrifice than any martyr of a religion. National Socialism, too, has a couple martyrs.

Please let's not have a gun control debate? Pretty please? It ends up going nowhere, and people who aren't citizens of the US aren't really bothered.

1) This thread is already so long that we might as well add a gun control debate. 2) Kobra is actually intelligent to the point of being capable of appreciating evidence. 3) The rest of the world cares deeply about the proportion of dangerous madmen in the population of the most powerful country on Earth.

Hasn't anyone yet worked out that "KKing" is our most feared and respected adversary, Kenny? "It is what it is". NDEs... And just the unfathomable depth of stupidity, the gut-wrenching reek of stupid beyond stupid, emanating from every sentence.

Some of the participants in this thread makes me want to lobby Congress to take the warning labels off everything.

@704:

nice followup.

I also noticed an interesting link in the article:

http://www.hindu.com/2008/07/14/stories/2008071450360100.htm

HYDERABAD: Christians across the State strongly protested the publication of an objectionable picture of Jesus in a Telugu daily on Sunday.

Publication of the picture triggered an attack on the office of Sakshi daily in Chirala town in Prakasam district and demonstrations in Nandyal, Guntakal, Anantapur, Guntur, Ongole and Bhimavaram. Copies of the daily were set ablaze in some places.

uh huh.

xianity: the peaceful religion.

LOL

#708: It will just get in the way of the current discussion.

I'm not very well-read on the controversy surrounding gun control, so I can't argue facts. The only thing I could bring to the discussion is biased logic. And I know this, and I plan on educating myself to change this. You are correct, though; the question should be why most happen in the USA.

Goldstein's clone, yet ironically it is you damned xians that are the ones sending us death threats, not us atheists sending you death threats.

Try again, your projection is showing.

echidna,

very well done !

One of my favourites about this blog is that there are people here that know so much more about the whole bible stuff than me and the christians whose holy book it is meant to be,like Etha Williams,David M or others,and it is with great pleasure that I see christians disemboweled about their lack of knowledge of their own holy book !!

JeffreyD@696 - I see you had worked it out! I didn't scan the rest of the thread carefully enough.

YAY! Kenny's back with the NDEs! Let us all bask in the glow of his spectacular stupidity!

Please, PZ, post on some arcane detail of a science topic

I'll second that one! Man, I remember when PZ could threaten to piss on a Bible and still only get about 50 comments total (this was back in the day when I used to walk to school in the snow uphill both ways). Now somebody sockpuppets and bam! it's 1000 comments.

And that's Kenny all right.

Wow, I estimated the speed with which new comments are added almost correctly!

That is not how God works. You have to be willing to submit to his will. He will not submit to yours.

Except if you're a priest and tell him to turn a bunch of wafers into himself. Then he obliges every single time.

Also at marriages: divorce is forbidden because "what God has connected man shall not separate" -- every single time a priest says "I declare you man and wife", God obliges and makes them man and wife, unless of course the marriage is annulled afterwards.

This is Catholic, and not only Catholic, dogma.

And are you saying that atheists don't do that at Christian sites?

now all you have to do is post the death threats, sent by email, to a xian by an atheist because the xian threatened to piss on a cracker.

btw, aren't you banned here (see entry re: Kansas Troll in the dungeon)?

#708 "3) The rest of the world cares deeply about the proportion of dangerous madmen in the population of the most powerful country on Earth."

Case in point being that I don't lve in the USA. But am particularly worried by the seemingly violent extremes of opinion that seem to occur in the USA (see this thread). Whether its emailed death threats or gun control laws, the whole world has to live with the fact that your American president, has his fundamentalist, gun toting finger on the most destructive arsenal ever seen, and we can all see exactly how much power your Congress has in trying to reign him in.

Your ideas of enforcing politeness through implied threat may have their roots in your gun culture, but it's not working for you nationally. I'd hate to see the logical consequences of a "School Shooting" played out on a Global scale.

Goldstein's clone, look at the beginning of this thread and the other e-mail threads a few back on this same subject where PZ has posted some of the other e-mails he has received from xians.

Now show us some death threats from atheist you claim to have, unless of course you are just another liar for cheeses and crackers.

And are you saying that atheists don't do that at Christian sites?

Show me examples.

And don't you agree that communism is basically just another religion? Keep in mind that, while most communists are atheists, most atheists are not communists. There are two or three communists (in some wide sense of the word at least) among the regular commenters here, but that's it. I, for one, am not one.

Re #716, Morning Nick Gotts, how be thou? Yeah, I had worked it out, but had an advantage. Not been sleeping well so I was reading from top to bottom since early morn.

Pax Nabisco

Oops, should have closed the tag after the first "most".

Listen you motherfuckers. Stop harping on [the religion of your choice]! [the religion of your choice] is all about peace and love you fucking atheist ass wipes! And I'll kill anyone who says it isn't!

David Marjanović,

You could also have mentioned Liberation Theology which borrow quite a bit from communism and socialism.

Ah, feel the Christian love.
** Brought to you by the Ministry of Love **

smonte19's threat or curse

may your insides rot, may your neck be snapped by an iron boot against a curb

somehow reminds me of Blackadder:

Dear Enemy: May the Lord hate you and all your kind, may you be turned orange in hue, and may your head fall off at an awkward moment.

KKing is defintely the one and only Kenny.

Same writing style

Same format (note the double blank lines between paragraphs typical of the Kenny)

And of course, NDEs, and the K in KKing

Not difficult to spot a Kenny when we find one !

#727:
I call Poe's Law!

I don't know whether the florist email is faked (doesn't look like it from the comments above)... but I decided that the best course of action was the contact the company (hey, they even have a handy 'contact us' page on their site) and ask them whether it was something that they approved of.

If it isn't a fake then I expect that MK Rolls will be in for a very difficult day today... :o)

for privacy's sake let's call him... Kenny K. No wait, that's too obvious...uh, let's say K.King.

you are just another liar for cheeses and crackers.

oh that's goldstein in a nutshell, alrighty.

he's an infamous xian troll, tossed out of almost every blog he visits his insanity upon.

the "original" Larry Farfarman.

Kenny ain't got nothing on Goldstein.

he's always recognizable by that trademark:

Who ya kiddin?

ending to many of his posts, when he thinks he has some irrefutable point that really is nothing but projection.

Sven and David,

I think Im going to have to sue PZ for all this,I havent had a social life for nearly a week and even spent half of my time at work going thru thousands of posts,to keep up lol...

And there is of course the rest of the blogosphere to check on,that picked up on the issue...

And then there is WYD here in Oz,and the Pope on national TV all the time.

Its all too much !!!
Over a cracker !!!

BTW,
I reckon Webster Cook is a cool guy,he had this planned to protest the donations of public money to this catholic group on his campus just as PZ planned his satire reply to it !
Well done Mr Cook !

for privacy's sake let's call him... Kenny K. No wait, that's too obvious...uh, let's say K.King.

How's about K-K-Kenny.

I can give them the reasons why but they won't believe them and they will bash whatever reasons I give.

For example I could say that Early Christians were not just killed for believing what the did they were torchured for something they felt strongly about. So many of them were torchured. Now it seems illogical that they would not just be killed (which is the easy way out) but they were torchured.

Paul who was called Saul used to kill and torchure Christians himself but he was turned and did a 180 and became one of the most known Christians in history. How could that happen like that if it was not real?

There are people that have died and seen God and saw that there is an afterlife. Some of them used to be Atheists.

There was a stone tablet that just came out in the news a week ago and it was from the Jews and they have said it was about a messiah who would die and rise up again after 3 days.

There are lots of reasons why I believe. I could keep going but nobody here is going to believe anything that has not been scientifically tested with science. It's like a blind person who has been blind from birth and a person who can see trying to describe what the color red is. He isn't going to get it and neither are these blind people on here.

kking, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it.

yes, kobra, you managed to insert images via background tags.

we've already congratulated you.

don't overdo it, or none of us will ever get to do it.

seriously.

The IT department and management can sort it out.
Or they can destroy evidence before the police obtain a warrant.

Posted by: Dr Benway | July 14, 2008 1:39 AM

Which is a crime. And while you may not realize it, I suspect the IT guys do.

Plus, the Company is big enough that there are laws governing the preservation of its e-mail. So, I doubt they'd scrub it. Especially when it's likely been archived automatically.

You have two choices my fucked up friend, first you can quit your job for the good of the
children. Or you can get your brains beat in.

...may your neck be snapped by an iron boot against a curb...

What was that about only picking on Catholics because they're peaceful? Although the second bugger seems more upset that PZ's a liberal. I have wondered, since I didn't notice if PZ has said anything... These e-mails are being sent through phone lines, making threats of violence a federal crime by FCC regulations. You know, a real hate crime against a real person, not a virtual hate crime against a cracker.

Also, I award you no points and may everyone not show mercy to your intelligence.

And it's your responsibility, because....?

Are you under the impression that PZ isn't capable of handling this himself? After all, how does this, in any way, concern you?

Posted by: Capital Dan | July 14, 2008 12:40 AM

You just don't get it, do you? First, why is it your business, by your logic, what other people do? Hmmmmm...?

Second, it's people like you, willing to do nothing, that preserve injustice and inequity in the world. In short, if the world can be made a better place, it sure as fuck won't be you helping. Which sort of makes you pathetic.

Sorry, but Jesus Christ and the Holy Father are not recognized citizens of the US by our government. - Neural T.

Wellllllll, they're getting close. Familiar with House Resolution 847?

Glad to see our fine government hard at work...

The valid question of course is Kenny-King of what ?

He must be King of something, we must grant him that.

King of the Kretins ? Is that ok Kenny ?

*Senses fresh breeze of rationality and reason*

Thank dog,its the morning in the US,and the reasonable people are coming to reclaim the thread,man it was dark and gloomy in here for a while there LOL
Hello MAJeff,Moses,RevBig,David M and others !

I think these posts give theists a good idea of what atheists would like to do to them if the atheists had political control. Goldstein's Clone

The very idea of "atheists" having political control is absurd: atheists are not an organised body, and their views range over the entire political spectrum. There might, of course, be particular political groups who are also atheists who would want to seize power and suppress both theists and other atheists, just as there are undoubtedly groups of theists who want to seize power and oppress both atheists, and other theists.

Incidentally, internal evidence suggests that "Goldstein" in 1984 was simply an invention of the Inner Party; certainly Orwell leaves this option open. So anyone using the handle "Goldstein's clone" is almost certainly either ignorant, or dishonest. (Or indeed both.)

JeffreyD,
btw, very sorry to hear about your loss, which I only learned of yesterday.

So, let me get this straight...these nutjobs think that death threats (extremely violent death threats) and foul language is an appropriate response to you threatening to profane a cracker?

What the hell is this, the Middle Ages?

It's also hilarious that some of these people want you to insult a Muslim icon. Apparently they're suffering under the delusion that we're all pro-Islam, Catholic hating 'liberals' (whatever that means these days). I think someone needs a big dose of reality...

It is a political philosphy which, as developed in the past century, is based on dialectical materialism.

Look its Legion AKA The Kansas Troll.

We've been through this legion. You don't know what you are talking about. You need to bone up on dialectical materialism. It does not mean what you think it does.

We've been through this many times.

I'm not trying to overdo it (nor do I care for congratulations). I'm trying to add a little bit of humor, that's all.

Hello MAJeff,Moses,RevBig,David M and others !

Goede morgen!

Can't stick around long. Teaching statement and dissertation are calling.

I was thinking yesterday, with all of the calls for desecration of muslim things, we should have spezio square off with a few of the radical catholics. that could be very entertaining, in a sort of "watch the illiterate who claim they are geniuses try to read Proust" kind of way.

Thank dog,its the morning in the US,and the reasonable people are coming to reclaim the thread,man it was dark and gloomy in here for a while there LOL

Yep, it was also dark and gloomy in the Bastille jail, and they also did reclaim it on this very day !

Vive la prise de la bastille. Aux armes citoyens !

It's also hilarious that some of these people want you to insult a Muslim icon...

The good news for them is that the wait is over. Christians are committing acts of violence over an image in a newspaper of Jesus with a beer mug.

See? They are every bit as good at attacking the infidels as their competition. Grab your pitchfork and join up today!

Jeff, if anyone does not embrace the homosexual lifestyle then they must be guilty of a hate crime right? They must also be homophobic, stupid, and they deserve to die.

Blah.... Blah... Blah... Yeah, nobody has ever heard that ignorance before. I thought that we would have evolved after millions of years and be smarter. I guess we need another few millions of years. LOL right, we won't make it another 100 years, let alone a few millions of years.

Posted by: KKing | July 14, 2008 4:32 AM

Does your mind actually work this shabbily? Or is it that you're just stuck in 3rd-grade logic as critical thinking and logic skills are not part of the American educational process?

Seriously, is it (as it appears) cognitive, or are you just ignorant?

Because you don't have to "endorse the homosexual lifestyle" (which is anything but a singular lifestyle) to not be a fucking, gay-bashing asshole. Really. Try it some day. You'll feel better when you put away the hate.

"Does your mind actually work this shabbily? Or is it that you're just stuck in 3rd-grade logic as critical thinking and logic skills are not part of the American educational process?"

Is that rhetorical questioning?

they must be guilty of a hate crime right? They must also be homophobic, stupid, and they deserve to die.

Goddamn you're a fucking idiot. Where did I say deserve to die? Indeed, it seems to be you that are obsessed with condemning people to die. After all, your fairy tale buddy (YOU) would torture me for eternity because I'm gay.

Yup, you're a loving creature. Fuckwit.

Now, if you don't want to be called a stupid bigot, stop acting like one.

Judeo-Christian ideology, in a nutshell: Love thy neighbor, unless he's black, Jewish, gay, liberal, from a different country, speaks a different language, dresses differently, has different tastes, listens to different music, expresses his opinions, or (God forbid) is a woman.

Does your mind actually work this shabbily?

C'mon Moses. You already know the answer to that.

I used to work at 1-800-Flowers and I am pretty surprised to say the least. In fact there were quite a few gay guys there. One was name Mike too. Well at least I thought he was gay, it's not like I ever asked of course. He bleached his hair, wore earrings, was super nice. Anyway, from my experience as an ex-employee, this is the typical employee and it certainly doesn't speak for the company. I do apologize. If you call Dave the owner, I'm sure Mike will lose his job as internet surfing on work hours is a no go and leaves one eligible for automatic separation.

*isn't the typical employee ...sorry

Now this is maybe the one thing in all of this that I really do not get,the call from all these cathofascists for PZ to desecrate something non-catholic,I dont get it,whats the point with that?

Clearly the catholics have shown that they can be just as murderous as the muslims or any other bunch of cultists,and not only in the last few days,but throughout history.

. I'm trying to add a little bit of humor, that's all.

irrelevant. we've been using standard links to accomplish the same thing for years, and so were you up until very recently.

I'm not saying it's guaranteed, and I might just be overreacting, but I can see sciblogs getting concerned about bandwidth issues (espcially on THIS blog) if they start seeing a bunch of images in threads where there aren't supposed to be any.

If it comes though the pipes that utilizing in-line style tags to post images is okedokee, then fine and dandy. You will have started a revolution on this blog, singlehandedly!

somehow, though, I rather think there must be a reason that Sciblogs disabled posting images in comments to begin with.

All I'm saying, is that you might want to reserve that "feature" for something important.

#765: Gotcha. Special occasions only. ;)

That first threat was made from a work email account. I'd forward that to their administrator... see if they like their job threatened.

#766:

Just to follow-up: goatse.cx is probably the reason it was disabled.

As a Catholic, I'm ashamed that someone would think so little of my religion as to promote thoughtless violence in this way.

Matt: I notice you said, "As a Catholic, I'm ashamed that someone would think so little of my religion as to promote thoughtless violence in this way."

Have you ever said, "As a Democrat, I'm ashamed that someone would think so little of my politics as to promote thoughtless violence in this way," by any chance? Why should religion be immune to criticism?

One was name Mike too. Well at least I thought he was gay, it's not like I ever asked of course. He bleached his hair, wore earrings, was super nice.

Is that what homosexuals all look and act like? I'll have to keep my eye out.

Nick at #749, thank you. Mine is not a pleasant blog, but you are welcome to drop bye and say hello. (smile)

Ciao

Matt,No 769 :

One of our best here,JeffreyD,has written on this and other misconceptions here,its very much worth a read :

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/fyi.php#comment-980398

#591

Yeah, because atheists do not burn churches down or anything. Thanks for proving how mentally challenged you are.

Posted by: KKing | July 14, 2008 5:08 AM

Put on proof.

#745

Sorry, but Jesus Christ and the Holy Father are not recognized citizens of the US by our government. - Neural T.

Wellllllll, they're getting close. Familiar with House Resolution 847?

I hope they do make Jesus a citizen, then we can round his ass up with the rest of them goddam trouble-makin' anti-war liberal loud-mouthed jews, and ship 'em all back to Africa with the Mexicans.

God Bless America!!!

You Tube EUCHARIST Challenge

Just to follow-up: goatse.cx is probably the reason it was disabled.

could be, or more generally they don't want to hassle with image rights issues.

I'm actually trying to find out why standard image tags themselves were disabled in comments on all sciblogs right now.

If it turns out it's not really a bandwidth issue, I'd be curious to see if they actually would try to curtail all in-line style tags if people started posting image links via that technique.

I certainly would love to be able to post some of the images I link to on an almost daily basis around here, and the threads would certainly become more, uh, colorful.

I just have a suspicion that they won't go for it.

I hope I'm wrong.

#776: I just sent the webmaster an email. I hope to hear back soon.

So wait, if I sent an email that basically said (except more long winded) "Read my blog or die", he would be able to post that based on the disclaimer?

#778:

You'd get a lot of negative press, if there is such a thing. :P

clinteas at #773, you are far to kind to my stream of consciousness scriblings, but thank you for the compliment. (smile)

Pax Nabisco

Clarissa: Atheism is not communism.

And the big macho albeit semi-literate sender of this email delivers flowers for a living?
Hmmmm... methinks you should report it to 1800Flowers

Clarissa: We heard you the first time.

So wait, if I sent an email that basically said (except more long winded) "Read my blog or die", he would be able to post that based on the disclaimer?

I'm pretty sure that he could put any disclaimer he wants on the blog and post email addresses and IP addresss as he chooses. I don't think there is any privacy. implied or not, when you post on someone's blog. But I could be wrong, it happens a lot.

Goldstein, strange that all of them take him to task for his post with regard the cracker if they are not xian for nobody else would be interested. Additionally, if you read the ones in the other thread a few back you will see very obviously that they are xians. So try again.

As to iggy and his threats, the closest I could come to a threat was "when I unleash the full wrath of the Trinity of Hannibal Lector, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and the Noodle Appendage" at the end of one of his posts. If that is a threat, it is strange one, though I can well imagine that the thought of our FSM descending on xians might well frighten them with thoughts of beer volcanoes, strippers and pasta. But interestingly, I noticed in other posts by apparent regulars that your presence and reason for being there was being questioned giving the impression as if you were messing around with various names. So who is the real problem here, as the posts that could be gleaned as from iggy (critical thinker, though he may have been using other names, I am not familiar enough with the regulars to glean it on a short visit) were mainly arguing about the stupidity of belief in god or gods and apart from that quote, if even that one, none could be seen as threatening. So more of your lying for cheeses and crackers.

Re #781 and #784, we have Godwin's Law for mention of Nazis, can we get one for the equation of atheist with Communist? A named law makes for a neat shorthand in writing.

I think we need one for fatwa envy as well.

Suggestions?

Pax Nabisco

clarissa is part of legion.

#788:
Tixx's Law?

Mike O'Risal = mychorrizal. I'll be damned. No, wait, I'm already damned. Oh, snap. :)

#790: Nevermind, I thought there was a space. Damned blogspot!

But interestingly, I noticed in other posts by apparent regulars that your presence and reason for being there was being questioned giving the impression as if you were messing around with various names.

The impression is true. That moniker is one of many legion uses.

Clarissa: Atheism is not communism.

More to the point communism wasn't even communism.

Never underestimate the capacity of one group of humans to dehumanise and massacre any other group of humans, for the most trivial and absurd of reasons.

That this happens in both "atheist" societies and "religious" societies merely serves to underscore the point that neither group is perfect, plugged into divine wisdom or morally "complete" in any meaningful sense. However, the atheists aren't the ones claiming that this can happen.

Ok,
I name atheism=communism Anges law,after the girl Id really like to date......
It goes like that:
In any given internet blog,usenet or similar forum discussion,the longer the discussion goes,the probability for someone bringing up the atheism=communism argument approaches 1.

John, feel free to contact Iggy at www.kcfreethought.org

He won't deny it.

Sure, he will say he is kidding, or its all a joke. But how are we to KNOW that?

In the meantime, I am still waiting for proof that the original posts that gave rise to this thread even came from a Christian.

As to iggy and his threats, the closest I could come to a threat was "when I unleash the full wrath of the Trinity of Hannibal Lector, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and the Noodle Appendage" at the end of one of his posts.

Goldstein was lying?

shocker.

*yawn*

I've seen his spiel so many times, on so many blogs now, that I can hardly manage to rise to the bait any more.

Anges Law? Sounds good to me.

In the meantime, I am still waiting for proof that the original posts that gave rise to this thread even came from a Christian.

Liar. Your history shows that you ignore any evidence that contradicts your narrow thin version of reality. You post such things merely to try and rile up some troglodyte base that you and your type appeals to.

#799:

Atheism isn't foundational to anything. Atheism isn't a political movement; it's a lack of a belief.

I think we need one for fatwa envy as well.

I rather think Fatwa Envy is clever and snappy enough on it's own. Regarding the other, how about Papal Bull? After all Pope Pius XI started this nonsense way back in the 30's :

http://www.ewtn.com/library/encyc/p11divin.htm

Oh,this just in:

Alabama's attorney general was caught with his pants down,with a male aide,by his wife.Oh,he's a conservative christian btw,and supported bills to outlaw sex toys,and loves the death penalty....
Shamelessly stolen from here:

http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/07/verily_homosexuality_is_the_d…

#788

The Virgin Marx Fallacy

Posted by: Whatever...

...and there goes Legion, rapidly sockpuppeting like the mad fool he is.

get lost, freak.

The argument was that atheims is foundational to communism...and of course its POLITICAL expression takes many forms.

Communal property of means of production is foundational to communism. Its atheism is a historical contingence. Accident, not substance.

The argument was that atheims is foundational to communism...and of course its POLITICAL expression takes many forms.

In a small part yes. Class struggle and economics are much more relevant. But even those are pushed to the side when we talk about the practice of communism in the 20th c.

As practiced, paranoia, totalitarianism, power grab and control of the population is much more relevant. Atheism is as much as fault as is the fact that they needed to eat and drink.

Who cares? look, it's the liar for cheeses and crackers again. I can well imagine that you would automatically see anything an atheist would write as threatening. After all, it just might make you question your beliefs if you weren't so stupid and dishonest. However, all the other regulars didn't appear threatened by iggy, only possibly puzzled by such as the quote I pasted in my last post, and apparently annoyed or irritated at him knocking religion and xianity in general by sometimes referring to him as a troll and questioning why he was blocked by the spam filter.

As to the source of PZ's threats, go back to this thread and read;

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/i_get_email_special_cracker_…

then go away, you nasty bit of slime.

Kobra (re post 770):

I'm not sure I understand you. I was attempting to say that I was ashamed of the person writing this email. I wasn't intending to say that religion should be immune to criticism; indeed it should. (Thoughtful and reasonable criticism, that is.) I felt angry at the writer of the email because he apparently thinks so little of his religion that he can ignore one of its basic teachings.

If atheism caused communism, then a decrease in the population of pirates caused global warming:

http://www.venganza.org/piratesarecool4.gif

"There was a stone tablet that just came out in the news a week ago and it was from the Jews and they have said it was about a messiah who would die and rise up again after 3 days."

....Oh dear, sounds like someone should read the artual news article. http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1820685,00.html?cnn=yes

To quote the part that is actually interesting:
"Israel Knohl, an expert in Talmudic and biblical language at Jerusalem's Hebrew University who was not involved in the first research on the artifact, claims that it refers to a historic 1st-century Jewish rebel named Simon who was killed by the Romans in 4 B.C., and should read "In three days, you shall live. I Gabriel command you." If so, Jesus-era Judaism had begun to explore the idea of a three-day resurrection before Jesus was born.

This, in turn, undermines one of the strongest literary arguments employed by Christians over centuries to support the historicity of the Resurrection (in which they believe on faith): the specificity and novelty of the idea that the Messiah would die on a Friday and rise on a Sunday. Who could make such stuff up? But, as Knohl told TIME, maybe the Christians had a model to work from. The idea of a "dying and rising messiah appears in some Jewish texts, but until now, everyone thought that was the impact of Christianity on Judaism," he says. "But for the first time, we have proof that it was the other way around. The concept was there before Jesus." If so, he goes on, "this should shake our basic view of Christianity. ... What happens in the New Testament [could have been] adopted by Jesus and his followers based on an earlier messiah story.""

In other words: Jesus' ressurrection is copyright infringement.
Nevertheless, the article itself already suggests that this line is just one interpretation, and people really cannot tell whether the whole messiah raising in 3 days thing is actually on the stone.
IF true however, it is massive evidence AGAINST Christianity.

Funny how people fail to read stuff properly. Even from something as simple as an article in Time.

#810:

I might have misread your post.

John, where is the proof that this came from a Christian?

And you are good at name calling. I bet you have short one.

#794

More to the point communism wasn't even communism.

Yup, they get to State Capitalism and that's as far as totalitarianism goes, no matter which direction they came from

Right meets Left, the masses lose BigTime.

Stay tuned and pay close attention
-----------
You Tube Eucharist Challenge

@681:

Check out Ghastly at http://www.ghastlycomic.com/

**WARNING** That site is seriously not safe for work. Wrong, blasphemous, and absolutely hilarious.

PZ has a job at a "collage." When does he find the time?

John, where is the proof that this came from a Christian?

And you are good at name calling. I bet you have short one.

well there goes another irony meter

#765
There is no bandwidth issue unless the image itself is hosted on a scienceblogs server, which wouldn't generally be the case. A ban would be for aesthetic reasons only, and quite reasonable if the place starts to turn into FARK.

@775:
I hope they do make Jesus a citizen, then we can round his ass up with the rest of them goddam trouble-makin' anti-war liberal loud-mouthed jews, and ship 'em all back to Africa with the Mexicans.

Not to mention making him pay taxes!

Cheeses and crackers can't even read now, what a surprise. You really are a sad specimen. One can only feel sorrow for you and wonder in amzement how you manage to survive outside an institute.

Still waiting for that PROOF that the sender was a Christian.

Do you know them personally?

Rev. BigDumbChimp, you should do what I do, get them by the container load about once a week at the moment. Though I might have to increase that to once a day at this rate :)

Communism is atheistic, alright.

As are Libertarianism, Capitalism, Representative Republics, Democracies, blah blah blah.

Now how about a nice godly poitical form? How about...DICTATORSHIP!

idjits.

#821, I think it would be a holy mess. He would have to be issued a death certificate and then an un-death certificate... I don't know if it's worth.

Still waiting for that PROOF that the sender was a Christian.

We're still waiting for PROOF of God. Maybe we can do a trade...

"Atheists" burning churchs in the Soviet Union was done mainly by government sanction and resulted, as anyone could have predicted, in driving the Russian Orthodox Church, et al., underground. In the main, it is theists that burn the churchs of other theists for no better reasons than a difference in doctrine or a different race, or indeed, sometimes just for the hell of it.

We atheists should be happy that we require no churchs because of the likelyhood that someone would piously torch them even before the varnish dried on the pews.

doov

Egad,

I'd immediately share all of this with the FBI. Please take it at least half-way seriously.

What we should really worry about is the NOTORIOUS Jewish Lobby mentioned twice by Richard Dawkins in his Delusional book.

(Pages 4 and 44 of the hardback.)

They are the most powerful in the world!

Dawkins, the atheists, SAYS SO!

Still waiting for that PROOF that the sender was a Christian.

No you aren't.

Damn, the new books are coming in early. Gotta get to the warehouse and get set up for shelving.
I am sick of manual labor, and I can't wait for classes to start this fall.

On a side note, Barnes and Nobel is starting an athiesim section, so I will get to see the new shit by Loftus FIRST.

Can't wait to post some reviews at Amazon. He can't delete them there.

Later, boys.

Duvenoy, I am sure you know, but for the sake of the mouth-breathing legion, I want to add that Stalin's paranoid INTENT was to suppress the influence of the church, as opposed to spreading the "ideology" of atheism.

I just got an e-mail from Melanie Kroll, and she disavows the threatening message sent from her computer. She thanked me for bringing it to her attention.

The lesson here is, be careful about who has access to your computer.

-jcr

To be honest, I'm pretty amazed at the poor education in the US on things like communism, you'd think people would study the history and motivations of the big enemy of decades past with a bit more accuracy and attention to detail.

On the other hand, if Iraq is anything to go by...

Barnes and Nobel are starting an athiesim section? Shit,Im sacred new.....

No JCR,

the lesson is,dont post IP addresses on the net if people might try to go all Gordon Ramsay about them and send emails to people we do not know are actually the ones that sent the offending messages in the first place.
Ive tried to get this message across all day,and shouldnt have needed to,because PZ said it himself and asked for restraint.There were some rather inspired people in here before tho who just wouldnt pause for a rational thought.

you really can't make something like this up - death threats coming from a 1-800-FLOWERS email address. has anybody considered the possibility that the guy is just an amateur performance artist or freelance comedian?

Posted by: Cottage Cheese

Dawkins, the atheists, SAYS SO!

It's funny how religionists walk into their own traps. By assuming atheism functions as a religion Cottage automatically assumed RD is some kind of authority figure for atheists who can rule by decree.

The cheap attempt at quote mining makes it complete. RD is simply right in saying that the Jewish lobby in the US is notorious for having a lot of political influence when looking at their actual numbers. Nothing strange about it.

New lies please, these are old and stale.

Here's that song in its entirety:

I don't believe in Jahweh, Buddha, Ganesh, Zeus or Allah
And I don't believe in Limbo, Hades, Heaven or Valhalla
I don't believe in Brahma, karma, Rama, Thor or Jupiter
I've studied both the Testaments but can't say which is stupiter

I've got no time for Odin, Ceres, Poseidon or Kingu
They're as fictional as Sherlock Homes or Arthur Dent or Pingu
Venus, Saturn, Mercury and Mars provoke my laughter
The one thing gods are good for is to name the planets after

I think that Christianity, Islam and Scientology
Are all a scam that preys upon a quirk of our psychology
I care not if you curse me by the name of Baal or Shiva,
For I am the very model of a fervent unbeliever.

I don't believe in Atlas, Balder, Freia, Yam or Hester
Or in reincarnation, because when you die you fester
I think the Holy Spirit as nonsensical as Frigg is
And I'll happily eat lobsters, cows and tasty little piggies (yum yum!)

I thoroughly despise the likes of Donohue and Bakker.
I posit that the Eucharist is just a frackin' cracker.
Though many people call me an insufferable know-it-all
They're equally dismissive when it comes to Quetzlcoatl.

I don't need any mantra, tantra, deity or deva
For I am the very model of a fervent unbeliever.

Whatever... (Comment #799):

The argument was that atheims [sic] is foundational to communism

Actually, the most you could plausibly argue is that atheism is a consequence of certain assumptions of Marxist theory, which makes Marxism at best a sufficient condition for atheism, but not a necessary one. That falls way short of being foundational to communism, which would require the order of dependence to be the other way round.

Atheism and communism have a similar relationship to each other as opposition to smoking and Nazism - in each case the former is at best an incidental consequence of the ideological presuppositions of the latter.

Communism as practiced during the 20th Century was, and often still is, anti-religious (although not consistently so), but a lot of that was down to anti-clericalism, since the clergy were typically seen as part and parcel of the old political order. Where religion is seen as a political threat (and to the totalitarian mindset the "threat" need amount to no more than people thinking differently from those in power), it's going to get stomped on. And if at any stage it turns out to be useful, those in power will co-opt it for as long as it remains useful (e.g., Stalin's co-option of the Orthodox Church during WW2). It's politics and power at work here, not disbelief in a deity.

"Looks like Melanie is about to learn important lessons in computer security.
Posted by: Julie K | July 13, 2008 6:36 PM
Oh boy, Monday is not going to be her day.
Posted by: mayhempix | July 13, 2008 6:47 PM"

Our friend Melanie Kroll should be explaining to her boss just about now about that email to PZ from her account. Too bad we can't be flies on the wall and listen in...

Barnes and Nobel is starting an athiesim section - Cottage Cheese

An athiesim section? A whole section on how to simulate athies? Well, admittedly there's the photographer Oscar Athie, the artist Marco Athie, and two places in France - Athie, Côte-d'Or, and Athie, Yonne - but it still seems rather specialised, even for such a big bookstore. Are you sure you've got this right, CC?

You have two choices my fucked up friend, first you can quit your job for the good of the children. Or you can get your brains beat in.

... I love the 'for the good of the children' thing. Yer basic, standard-issue demagoguery (it's always for the children, see), coupled with hilariously inverted priorities--and a level of beyond the pale irony thrown in for good measure. See, ridicule of an absurdity (in response, remember, in the first place, to threats to a young adult), well, that's a danger 'to the children'. The raving homicidal rage of the nutter who wrote this and the folk he's not so tacitly endorsing in doing so? Apparently, we can assume that's no hazard.

It's funny 'cos it's batshit insane. So much that just about the only thing that might make it funnier for me would have to be seein' said writer have to explain his reasoning here to a judge in a criminal trial.

that's just fantastic. i wonder how this will develop... has anyone contacted the hater's employer?

"Yeah, because atheists do not burn churches down or anything"

Are you mistaking us with Satanists, genius? Why would we burn down your churches?

Frankly I think churches need to be preserved... Then turned into libraries or restaurants. We did it a couple times here! These are COOL buildings, man!

I can't wait to hear about the MKroll/1-800-FLOWERS brouhaha. Surely a shitstorm is swirling this Monday morning at her office. If MKroll did not send the message, I wish her the best.
********
Cottgage Cheese? (notice his own misspelling) It's Kevin. Ignore the little petulant troll.

Also, I trust everyone's seen today's Jesus and mo?

I can't wait to hear about the MKroll/1-800-FLOWERS brouhaha. Surely a shitstorm is swirling this Monday morning at her office. If MKroll did not send the message, I wish her the best.
********
Cottgage Cheese? (notice his own misspelling) It's Kevin. Ignore the little petulant troll.

Oops, There's an echo in here.

"I just got an e-mail from Melanie Kroll, and she disavows the threatening message sent from her computer. She thanked me for bringing it to her attention.
The lesson here is, be careful about who has access to your computer.
-jcr
Posted by: John C. Randolph | July 14, 2008 9:38 AM"

I wonder if 1800flowers will try and determine who did send it.

that's just fantastic. i wonder how this will develop... has anyone contacted the hater's employer?

/headdesk

Anges Law sounds good to me, hope it gets you laid, clinteas.

Kobra, Tixx's Law sounds incredibly ugly, more like a discussion on parasites. (grin)

Pax Nabisco

Somewhat OT, but good for a laugh: the Vatican made a loss last year, because of the weak dollar.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7501486.stm

Wasn't there something in the original company prospectus about not laying up your treasures on Earth, where moth, rust, and credit crunches do corrupt? Time to crank up the sale of indulgences again?

Hmmm... it looks like the florist is getting a lot of attention here, but I think everyone is doing the second writer a disservice. In fact, I'd say we're doing ourselves a disservice by ignoring the possibilities inherent in the second note.
Actually, I hesitate to call it a "note". It's more like a poem. Almost lyrical in its' vitriol; it flows, (to coin a phrase), trippingly from the tongue.
If I were the editor of a right-wing hate-poem magazine, (although, Gawd knows the market is really saturated with them right now), I would hire this person in a heartbeat.
So, everyone - let's hear it for smonte19.

the original company prospectus

Ruined me. I 'm glad I wasn't drinking coffee.

"I just got an e-mail from Melanie Kroll, and she disavows the threatening message sent from her computer. She thanked me for bringing it to her attention.

The lesson here is, be careful about who has access to your computer.

-jcr"

Poor girl. This totally sucks to be stuck in this. Some folks are so cowardly and so low, hiding like that behind someone else's identity. COWARD. PUSSY!

I guess their mail accounts are pretty easy to hack. Or her password was too easy...

I love this ironic little missive tagged to the second email:

"Making the world a better place one message at a time."

Superlols.

"Yeah, because atheists do not burn churches down or anything"

You're thinking of Odinists, my friend, Odinists.

An athiesim section? A whole section on how to simulate athies?

It would seem to me that "athies" is the singular form and "athiesim" the plural. You know, like in cherub/cherubim. That would make athiesim... Atheist angels? Now that is an appealing notion.

I guess their mail accounts are pretty easy to hack. Or her password was too easy...

Or she's lying.

You're probably right that she's getting screwed here, but we just don't know.

And we likely will never know.

I guess their mail accounts are pretty easy to hack. Or her password was too easy...

You'd be surprised how simple people make their passwords. Chances are though that 800-flowers has a strong password policy (which doesn't mean it can't be cracked just takes longer). If, and I say If, the email did actually come from her account, it could be as simple as someone walked into her office when she went to lunch and her computer was unlocked.

So I hope it's clear: emails sources can be spoofed.

Even when there's no spoof, I'd advise against reacting to criminal threats before consulting with police. The destruction of evidence can be both intentional and unintentional.

Investigators and neuroscientists know that the truth is in the first interview. Not the second, not the fifth, but the first. Why? Because language destroys memory.

Once you talk about some event, other aspects of your memory for the event will rapidly fade. Language coding is like taking a vector-format representation of a bitmap image: what's lost in detail is gained in storage space.

Surprise is the investigator's friend. When people know the investigator is coming, they rehearse and sanitize their story. They clean their desks. They wash their clothes. They hide the bong. They put away the pipe bomb materials laid out on the kitchen table.

Why might a large corporation cover up evidence of some worker's crime? Employers with deep pockets can become the target of civil suits on the order of hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars.

The damages that arise from criminal threatening can be more costly than you might think. Just ask Ayan Hirsi Ali. Security systems, investigations, and attorneys are not cheap.

When you interview someone who doesn't expect you and you fail to find evidence of guilt, you can enjoy a greater confidence in that person's innocence - saves time when you've got a dozen or so death threats to wade through.

Oh geez,20 hours later,and we seem to start at basecamp again,with people commenting on the IP addresses.....

Im going to bed,wake me if there is any new development,or Melanie sues any of the jerks that thought a whois query will unveil her role in the great death threat conspiracy !

I sent the following article to PZ yesterday and I recieved a notice saying it wasn't deliverable. Either there are too many messages or he closed the account.

You gotta love Oklahoma... a church giving away a semi-automatic rifle. But I guess someone has to arm those Christian avengers.

http://www.koco.com/news/16860079/detail.html

OKLAHOMA CITY -- An Oklahoma church canceled a controversial gun giveaway for teenagers at a weekend youth conference.

Windsor Hills Baptist had planned to give away a semiautomatic assault rifle until one of the event's organizers was unable to attend.

The church's youth pastor, Bob Ross, said it's a way of trying to encourage young people to attend the event. The church expected hundreds of teenagers from as far away as Canada.
"We have 21 hours of preaching and teaching throughout the week," Ross said.

A video on the church Web site shows the shooting competition from last year's conference. A gun giveaway was part of the event last year. This year, organizers included it in their marketing.

"I don't want people thinking 'My goodness, we're putting a weapon in the hand of somebody that doesn't respect it who are then going to go out and kill,'" said Ross. "That's not at all what we're trying to do."

Ross said the conference isn't all about guns, but rather about teens finding faith.

"You make a lot of new friends down here," said Vikki Goncharenko, who attended the conference. "You get to meet new people. There's a bunch of things that are going on. It's just, you have a wonderful time."

Friday evening, Ross said the gun giveaway had been canceled. Pastor emeritus Jim Vineyard, who ran the event, injured his foot and wouldn't be able to attend. The gun giveaway was also removed from the church Web site.

Ross said the church would give the gun away next year instead. He said the church spent $800 buying the gun for the promotion.

Work crew member, Office intern...the possibilities are not endless. What do you bet her password is MKROLL1?

That would make athiesim... Atheist angels? Now that is an appealing notion. - Andrés Diplotti
See Philip Pullman's The Subtle Knife! Gay atheist angels, no less!

check out his comment - "what I would like to know is how did you even
get a job at a collage"

Yeah, right. This guy can't spell college and he wants you to quit your job? Conversation should go along the lines of "How did you get into a collage?" "Why, it was a pretty project my niece did for the art project."

Religion attacking science = Dark Ages.

You could also have mentioned Liberation Theology

It is mentioned in the Wikipedia article on Christian Communism that I linked to.

David, no I don't agree that Communism is basically just another religion.

It is a political philosphy which, as developed in the past century, is based on dialectical materialism.

Atheism is basic to its system.

I think what you want to say is that atheism more or less necessarily leads to communism. That is wrong.

"Political philosophy"... sure, but damn similar to a religion. Let's see. Infallible prophets: check (Marx, Engels; usually Lenin; often others in addition -- notably different ones in different denominations). Infallible scripture: check (works of the above). Supernatural forces: check (inevitable progress of society: slaveholder society to feudalism to capitalism to socialism to communism). Complete set of guidelines on how to live: check. Belief that doubt is, well, heresy: check. Martyrs: check. Miracles: lots of them in Maoism at least.

All that's missing is an afterlife -- except for Kim Il-Sung. (Mao has passed into "Chinese folk religion"; they sacrifice oranges to him in temples these days.)

This is no more rationalistic than, say, Calvinism. Communism has basic principles that are simply held on faith in the absence or even against the presence of evidence.

And John, I see no EVIDENCE that the threats you mention were made by Christians.

So you really think it's a simpler hypothesis that we are looking at a VAST conspiracy of Southern Baptists that try to make the poor Catholics look bad?

Didn't think so. You seem to have a lot of practice in wanting to believe.

Thank dog,its the morning in the US,and the reasonable people are coming to reclaim the thread,man it was dark and gloomy in here for a while there LOL
Hello MAJeff,Moses,RevBig,David M and others !

I'm in the "Central" European time zone and have nothing to do with either the US or any mornings :o)

He really tried to fill the KC Star blog with rants signed "Yum Yum, Christian Brains are delish" and talked about visting the "wrath of Hannibal Lector" on people.

That's an obvious joke. A tasteless one (pardon the tasteless pun), one that I wouldn't have made, but still an obvious one.

It looks like a case of "fine, I'm whatever you're afraid of".

Catholic League FIRST TENET listed:

"When slanderous assaults are made against the Catholic Church, the Catholic League hits the newspapers, television, and radio talk shows defending the right of the Church to promote its teachings with as much verve as any other institution in society.

Gotta feel bad for PZ Myers, yet
"Don't wrestle with pigs, because you just get dirty and the pigs like it."

Methinks PZ made this a banner week for Catholic League donations.

I'm the sole IT manager / admin for a multistate company that has 500 or so employees.

When I joined the company there was no strong password policy.

I'd say that 70% of the people had some variation of "password" or their name as their password.

The other 30% weren't much better.

The latest on the original controversy: An Orlando local news station has published an update.

UCF Catholic Group Faces Hazing Charges for Protecting 'Body of Christ'

http://www.wftv.com/news/16872192/detail.html

Apparently, "forced consumption of food" is forbidden by university policy.

For a time I was getting a few emails from myself offering sweet deals on some penis enlargement drug.

I can VNC to a corporate computer in another state and send email from there. The person using Melanie's computer (if not Melanie herself) to send death threats might not be in the building.

#867: I lol'd hard when I read The Subtle Knife for that very reason.

Methinks PZ made this a banner week for Catholic League donations. Posted by: marcia | July 14, 2008 10:40 AM

He also made it a banner week for his blog. Besides, "a pox on both their houses" plays to atheist strengths rather than theistic ones. Simply making people tired of religious argument works in our favour, in a few weeks all people are likely to remember about this issue is that catholics freak out about cracker abuse.

For example, what can you remember about the cartoons and teddy bear fiasco? These are exactly the kind of productive, corrosive memes we need out there.

By the way, if PZ does actually "desecrate" the crackers, he'll be demonstrating the opposite of his claim that they're "just crackers." Smash the idol, and you're agreeing with your opponents that it's more than an "ordinary chunk of matter", even if hardly what it is claimed to be. Glen D
-

The liberation of the human mind has rarely been furthered by men of solemnity, but rather by the freeliving people who heaved dead cats into religious sanctuaries, and happily went on with their business; proving to all men that doubt, after all, was safe - that the god in the sanctuary was a fraud. One laugh is worth ten thousand syllogisms. ~H.L. Mencken

That's a laugh, not taking up the tactics that rival religions use. As in, your average Satanist is one who thinks that desecrating the "holy symbols" of Xianity means something, precisely because they do think that such symbols have power (if possibly only psychologically).

Mencken didn't go around "desecrating" the "holy objects." He satirized and skewered. Nietzsche deconstructed, and labeled religion unclean. These were a whole lot more meaningful than slashing a Jesus picture, or "desecrating" what one has repeatedly labeled as "just a cracker."

Give me "the host" to eat, and I'll simply eat it to see what it's like. That's the only "desecration" that someone who says that these are merely tasteless charms has any business doing (soliciting tasteless crackers also makes no sense, if it's "just a cracker").

IOW, don't compare the intelligent criticisms of religion by someone like Mencken with the lackwit juvenile tactic of "violating" some worthless chunk of processed wheat. Mencken's writings were wit, the threat to "just a cracker" is vulgar grandstanding, and intellectual bankruptcy.

Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7

Re: strong passwords.

I hate them. If it's a site I plan to access regularly, I can be bothered to memorise a password like 7yh8*J%2, and I suppose that for a work account that you log into every day it would be doable; my work unfortunately not only wants strong passwords, but insists that you change your password regularly (4 times a year).

That's a bit much. I just get ReT!s4!d memorised, and now I have to change it? It just results in people writing their passwords down, creating a new weakness. Strong passwords=look for a sticky note on the back of the monitor.

PZ MYers is the best argument I can find against tenure.

Here we have a liberal who wants to confiscate what he can't legitimately earn and silence those he disagrees with.

You can't make this stuff up.

It's time to end the public funding of education.

See the latest Jesus and Mo cartoon at:

http://www.jesusandmo.net/2008/07/14/mass/

Paul Zachary Myers, an athiest college professor

My emphasis above.

So who's the athiest professor of them all? Who's more athiey than anyone else?

hate them. If it's a site I plan to access regularly, I can be bothered to memorise a password like 7yh8*J%2, and I suppose that for a work account that you log into every day it would be doable; my work unfortunately not only wants strong passwords, but insists that you change your password regularly (4 times a year).

Trust me. You want the company that supplies you with your paycheck to be secure. And we insist they change every 3 months too( What do you base "a bit much" on?). And not repeat the same password. And lock you out if you type the wrong password 5 times. And a bunch of other things. More secure places require you have an ID token that uses an algorithm to sync a constantly changing password with the account servers at your office. You have to enter your user id, password AND the code on the ID at that time.

Sticky notes are a problem but really, once a person has physical access to the machine, the password is merely a small road block, if one at all. We have policy against that too. Sure not everyone follows it, but their are things that to you if you don't. The strong passwords . security is for those that do not have physical access to your computer.

Re: James (#869)

No thanks. I really would prefer not to descend back into another Dark Ages.

#862 "someone walked into her office when she went to lunch and her computer was unlocked."

What kind of network manager allows machines under his control to have accounts remain open indefinitely at times when no one is at the machine? Perhaps '1800flowers' should be looking to replace some-one in their computer admin.

More importantly, let's not have a witch hunt for the guilty party. Disgruntled ex-employees often buy guns and seek revenge - it could be PZ on the receiving end this time.

From the article linked to by Orlando:

Cook said his hazing complaint cited a UCF anti-hazing policy banning the forced consumption of any food in which the initiation or admission into or affiliation with a University of Central Florida organization may be directly or indirectly conditioned.

That is one big decision to lay on the shoulders of the UCF administration.

Cook also filed charges accusing the Catholic club of violating the school's underage alcohol policy by serving communal wine to underage students.

:)

Paul Zachary Myers, an athiest college professor at the University of Minnesota Morris who saw our story has since pledged to desecrate the Eucharist and post photographic evidence on the Internet in protest of Cook's treatment.

!!!

It's time to end the public funding of education.

Well, whatever money was spent on your education was clearly wasted, since you apparently don't even know that tenure is granted by private universities as well.

Here we have a liberal who wants to confiscate what he can't legitimately earn and silence those he disagrees with.

You can't make this stuff up. - James

Yes you can - as you just proved. Liar.

#869: "Here we have a liberal who wants to confiscate what he can't legitimately earn and silence those he disagrees with."

Confiscate what and silence who? Last time I checked, this blog had a policy that allows for free posting, just as you are doing right now. So no silencing, except when the person is extremely rude, sock-puppeting or uses similar strategies.

I mean, your words sound nicely eloquent, but when you fail to give accurate examples, they are nothing less than covered-up bitching.

grrrr hit submit instead of preview. but you get my point

#872/#873 - 800flowers uses RSA security tokens for remote users - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_token - they are reasonably state of the art.

#869: Let me repeat this: HE IS GETTING DEATH THREATS OVER A HYPOTHETICAL 'HOLY' CRACKER! He's not using the Bible as toilet paper. He's not gluing clay breasts to a statue of Jesus. He's not gluing the pope's head to old man porn. HE IS THREATENING A CRACKER. Most Catholics I've met understand that it's symbolic. It's the extra-loony Catholics(who are apparently quite vocal) that believe that the cracker literally becomes the Body of Christ.

Besides, didn't someone in the Bible say something about idolatry?

What kind of network manager allows machines under his control to have accounts remain open indefinitely at times when no one is at the machine? Perhaps '1800flowers' should be looking to replace some-one in their computer admin.

Not a good one. But how long does it take to send an email? 2 mins?

Sweet, headers and all. Maybe I should flood their email accounts...

Okay, am I the only one lame enough to admit that the only reason I'm here this morning is to find out what the hell happened with mkroll?

800flowers uses RSA security tokens for remote users -

Not that I don't believe you, I'm just curious how you know that.

And that is an extra layer that you'd expect a large company like 1-800-flowers would use.

No, no, say it ain't so! Here I am, eating crackers with cheese and wine (all cheese-eating surrender monkey of course, being there and it's their national day), giggling until I read Miss Prism @634 rudely saying:

[The gods are] as fictional as Sherlock Homes or Arthur Dent or Pingu

Arthur Dent is not fiction!!!1!!11! The proof is the mice. A real planet wouldn't evolved anything as mindbogglingly cute as a mouse. They'd all be stuffen and ate.

And, and, if he wasn't real, we woudln't have bistromathematics! Resturant bills would make sense. That's so obviousely crazy its' clear your not even rong.

#855 - I was at the home of an 800flowers remote employee once. I'm a geek - I notice such things.

Personally, I am more curious why there's no new Pharyngula loving from PZ going on. I know he is busy, but I cannot help but wonder whether or not he is still alive.

I was at the home of an 800flowers remote employee once. I'm a geek - I notice such things.

Yeah me too.

There's been a weird development in this story. Apparently "kidnapping" the host constitutes "hazing":

Catholics consider the consecrated wafer, the Eucharist, among the most sacred objects in the world and believe it becomes the 'Body of Christ' through transubstantiation.

Student Government Senator Webster Cook filed the hazing charges with University of Central Florida administrators shortly after he admitted violating church rules by bringing the Eucharist home from Mass on June 29, then holding it hostage for one week in a plastic bag before returning it.

Cook said his hazing complaint cited a UCF anti-hazing policy banning the forced consumption of any food in which the initiation or admission into or affiliation with a University of Central Florida organization may be directly or indirectly conditioned.

The rule, presumably, was intended to prevent fraternities from force-feeding pledges disgusting food, but Cook said the rule is clear and applies to all UCF clubs, including the Catholic Campus Ministries religious group. He insists the group is guilty because members ordered him to consume the Eucharist to remain at Mass.

The Diocese of Orlando declined to comment about the charges.

"Appropriate officials of the University of Central Florida are investigating the matter and due process is occurring," said a spokesperson.

Nearly two weeks after the incident, UCF spokesman Grant Heston confirmed the school was still reviewing the charges and had not yet decided whether they would be dismissed or brought through a formal trial conducted by administrators with UCF's Office of Student Conduct. Recent groups convicted of hazing charges at UCF were fraternities, which faced several years of suspension as punishment.

Cook also filed charges accusing the Catholic club of violating the school's underage alcohol policy by serving communal wine to underage students.

Previously, Diocese of Orlando Spokesperson Carol Brinati confirmed Catholic students filed charges of disruptive conduct with UCF administrators against Cook and a friend of his attending Mass with him on June 29 for their "disrespectful" behavior. Privacy laws prohibit UCF from discussing details of that case, but Cook's friend told Channel 9 he checked with school officials, who told him to expect his charges to move through the system soon.

Cook is also facing a more public set of charges filed by one of his peers in UCF's Student Government Association. SGA Officer Anthony Furbush filed an impeachment affidavit against Cook claiming Cook violated SGA ethics when he announced he was an SGA official during Mass and cited that reason, along with the fact Mass was held in a public campus hall, as why he didn't have to leave when asked.

Cook denied that allegation. Hearings on the impeachment charge could begin Wednesday. If convicted, Cook would be stripped of his SGA position.

SGA officials at UCF are responsible for allocating and overseeing a more than $13 million annual budget, which comes from student fees. The spots are coveted by students, with some candidates spending $10,000 in private funds to win elections for the highest positions in SGA.

The SGA impeachment, overseen by students, is separate from the pending Office of Student Conduct case overseen by UCF administrators. The administrative court could issue punishments ranging from probation to an outright expulsion from school.

Cook, who said he decided to return the Eucharist after receiving threats against his life and afterlife from angry Catholics, maintains he did nothing wrong and says he still deserves an apology for being "attacked" during Mass. Cook also denied he apologized for his actions, as UCF officials claimed he did in a statement.

However, Cook said he would be open to meeting with the student church members, who filed the disruptive conduct charges against him, in hopes of working out a deal for both sides to drop the charges before they end up in administrators' hands, where suspension and expulsion would be on the table.

Since Channel 9 broke the story it's grabbed national headlines. Paul Zachary Myers, an athiest college professor at the University of Minnesota Morris who saw the story, has since pledged to desecrate the Eucharist and post photographic evidence on the Internet in protest of Cook's treatment. The pledge attracted condemnation from the Catholic League, a Catholic civil rights group whose leader, Bill Donohue, suggested that UCF President John Hitt should expel Cook from school even after he returned the Eucharist.

Cook's friend, who asked to have his identied shielded out of fear, hopes the controversy will end soon.

"I think it has gotten way out of hand, and it's all based on a misunderstanding," he said.

www.wftv.com/irresistible/16872192/detail.html

Leaving behind the current circus, the older circus still has its entertainments, it appears.

"Hazing" seems to be the term that is the result of straining to find something, anything, to throw at the silly boy. Good grief, if there were any sense to this all, they'd slap him with some religious sanction, then let it all die down. Obviously none of the secular rules were actually made to deal with the horror of "kidnapping the body of Christ", which seems oddly unable to defend itself, since it's supposedly part and parcel of a risen God.

Somehow they appear to think that religion doesn't have the answer to religious issues, however, and have to drag this through venues that actually work, profane human sources of judgment. Is there any way to make religion look more silly than their own shenanigans do?

Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7

(.)(.)

I have come to believe that Woot is a zen master. I feel oddly reassured when I see Woot's boobies...

Glen D,

Did you actually read the article you posted? They're not charging Cook with hazing; he's charging them with hazing for trying to force him to consume the wafer. And someone else linked to the article just above.

Gah, this is an annoying thread.

I know it's simply writing out some Catholic doctrine explicitly, but I found the following wording to be especially hilarious:

Two miracles take place at the consecration. The first is that the substance of the bread and wine change into Jesus Christ. Not His dead Body and Blood but His risen and living Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity - His whole resurrected Self. The second miracle is that the qualities of bread and wine still remain as though no change has occurred. This is necessary so that the Eucharist can be in a foodlike form that we can easily consume.

:)

Did you actually read the article you posted? They're not charging Cook with hazing; he's charging them with hazing for trying to force him to consume the wafer.

Opps, you're right, SC. I didn't read it carefully, because it just looked like some sort of bureaucratic nonsense going on.

Kind of tough to see how he thinks he can make the "hazing" charge stick, though he's like just making a point.

Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7

SC,

well, well, so Webster files his hazing charges ;

Cook said his hazing complaint cited a UCF anti-hazing policy banning the forced consumption of any food in which the initiation or admission into or affiliation with a University of Central Florida organization may be directly or indirectly conditioned.

...and the Catholic students filed disruptive charges ;

Previously, Diocese of Orlando Spokesperson Carol Brinati confirmed Catholic students filed charges of disruptive conduct with UCF administrators against Cook and a friend of his attending Mass with him on June 29 for their "disrespectful" behavior.

I did a search in the Florida statutes (2007) and I did find this;

871.01 (1) Whoever willfully interrupts or disturbs any school or any assembly of people met for the worship of God or for any lawful purpose commits a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

...it doesn't look good for Webster.

My little ditty to Mkroll:

Dear M Kroll,

I am a reader of Dr. Myer's blog and giggled when I read your rather foul email to Dr. Myers.

I love your use of the work cunt. VERY intellectual.

I found the following question particularly funny:

"How would you feel if nice folks starting ranting against Fags, and atheist like yourself."

I guess, as the crudeness of your "writing" indicates, you have not been out much as I am one of those fags you so easily disparage and let me tell you, idiots like you rant at me all day long. In addition, people who are NICE, do not "rant against Fags". I do appreciate the fact that you capitalized the 'f' in fag. Made me feel all warm and fuzzy.

Finally, I am wondering if your colleagues at 1 800 Flowers are interested in the threats you make and nasty language you use during your work hours on your work computer?

Thanks for the laugh.

One HUGE fag,

William
NYC

"The second miracle is that the qualities of bread and wine still remain as though no change has occurred."

No, sadly the second miracle is that hordes of people can accept this as fact.

I think the cracker cops made noise and then put hands on Cook who was just walking back to his seat with the host in his hand. From the articles, I see no evidence that Cook intended to disrupt the Mass.

It's been a while, but I seem to remember walking back to the pew with a host in my hand and putting it in my mouth as I knelt down. Things may have changed.

LordJiro #881:
"Most Catholics I've met understand that it's symbolic. It's the extra-loony Catholics(who are apparently quite vocal) that believe that the cracker literally becomes the Body of Christ."

Heh, I suppose that makes them bad Catholics, since the "Real Presence" is a hugely important part of their doctrine.

I was raised Catholic, and was surprised when I found out they believed it literally, actually. I had simply assumed that it must be symbolic, because I credited the people around me with better judgment than I should have. When I heard what the official dogma was, my opinion of the people who swallowed it whole diminished a bit.

...(It was a) beacon which happened to LOOK like the grail. You must spank us. Yes, You must spank us all. And after the spanking...

Escuerd,

That is just hysterical. As if actual godman flesh and blood are inedible. You show me some, and I'll try some nice messiah tartar.

W,

Are you a total cretin ? Did you not bother to read this thread ? If you had you would have found out that Melanie Kroll very likely had her e-mail account used by someone else.

Now all you have done is provide those who criticise PZ with evidence that some of his ilk are retarded fuckwits.

When he gets fired you should send him flowers.

You said:
"and a very few get very, very nasty -- for some reason, several have launched into profane tirades against my mother -- do Catholics have mommy issues or something?"
------------------------------------------------------
Why are you labelling all Catholics on the basis of what a few dickheads - very few in your own words - and why do you even assume these people even are Catholics?

That sort of thing simply shows up your own prejudices.

Comment #897:

My little ditty to Mkroll:

Great. Another idiot who didn't bother to stop and think.

What part of PZ's requests:

"No! Don't respond by spamming them back! These could very well be fake or phished email addresses (I think you can count on it for the first one)." (#12)

and:

"I really don't like the idea of harassing either of these people. Let this stand as a record, nothing more -- it's just here in case there is an escalation." (#261)

did you not understand?

Actually, I'd LOVE to know how you got a job at a collage. I work at a college, but a collage sounds like much more fun!

...I just sent an email to 1800FLOWER...

...how do you get a job at a collage...

See? This is why we can't have nice things.

#869

You can't make this stuff up.
It's time to end the public funding of education.

And you are a fine example of a welfare swilling commie bum, why don't your third rate steepled Wal-Marts pay taxes like everybody else. I'm tired of building roads to to your whore houses and treating your endless sewage for free. Not to mention honest taxpaying business people who have to compete with freeloaders.

Pay your own way first then whine about public education, you fucking carpetbagger.
---------
You Tube Eucharist Challenge

I really want to get "scientifically tested with science" on a t-shirt. (from #650). Awesome!

Why are you labelling all Catholics on the basis of what a few dickheads - very few in your own words - and why do you even assume these people even are Catholics?

And where did he label all Catholics as these being dickheads like these few?

Did you skip reading comprehension 101?

Why are you labelling all Catholics on the basis of what a few dickheads - very few in your own words - and why do you even assume these people even are Catholics?

That sort of thing simply shows up your own prejudices.

The Catholic League must stop the campaign against Mr. Myers.

"And where did he label all Catholics as these being dickheads like these few?"

ugh

Epinephrine@#868:

4 times a year? Count your blessings: We require changes every 42 days. Anyway, what I advise our users is using a phrase, ex: "My son is turning one year old this year" becomes Msitoyoty. Need some caps and symbols? Add a few obvious substitions: M$it1Yo+y.

I have a couple of comments to make on this:

1) As a non-denominational Christian, I find this hate mail revolting. Jesus did not teach people to threaten others, but Jesus DID say that there was a special place in hell reserved for the hypocrites.

2) That said, I believe that many here are kind of jumping the gun. IMHO, I would let PZ handle this on his own. He can contact the authorities if he wishes, and they can investigate, find the answer, and prosecute accordingly.

3) And yes, this is America, where the law states that people can state their beliefs without being threatened. Some people who threaten others, like this Bozo who threatened PZ, should put their skills to use in a nation that would appreciate those particular talents.... say, Communist China.

Someone might have already put this somewhere else in the thread but her mail was apparently hacked or just used by someone else. This is the response I got this morning:

Hi there

Not sure what this is or who you are. All i know is i have lots of
emails from some unhappy people. I have emailed the original recipient
an apology being an email was sent from my work email address without
my knowledge. The threat is empty nonetheless. I see that this PZ folk
has lots of supporters so he/she must be a good person. I can only
apologize again for this inconvenience.

Have a good day

Melanie

All i know is i have lots of
emails from some unhappy people.

Teh Intartubes strikes again.

I was afraid that would happen.

It's like a blind person who has been blind from birth and a person who can see trying to describe what the color red is.

But one could give the blind a spectroscope with a tactile interface, so that she could convince herself that "red" is a real phenomenon, and not just a figment of sighted people's imaginations.

Can you do the same with religious beliefs?

@916
I can only
apologize again for this inconvenience.

Well, the thing is, and sorry about that, Melanie, that unless you can prove your mailbox was hacked, you are still responsible.

That is why we lock our workstations, dear. That is why we protect our passwords.

Did we check our sent mail file?

If it went out on your login, then you, dear, are responsible for it.

Hope you take more care at your next job.

Steve "There's a reason people have logins and passwords." James

"Teh Intartubes strikes again.

I was afraid that would happen."

It does make it harder to criticise the small number of people who are e-mailing hateful to stuff to PZ when some of his readers are doing much the same.

Doesn't all this just pretty much prove that their imaginary deity is a hypocritical lying son of a bitch? I mean if they're supposed to love one another and their neighbor, what causes them to have so much hatred and anger directed at people with differing opinions? It's either their hateful imaginary deity, or hateful imaginary demon, or their hateful mental processes. These assholes know little beyond their petty imaginary and ignorant world, and sadly, that's all their feeble minds will ever attain. Congratulations religion, you have helped spawn ignorance and wanton lust for the blood of dissenters.

When I contacted:

Locate a 1-800-FLOWERS.COM® store near you
1-800-FLOWERS
Address: One Old Country Road, Suite 110
Carle Place, NY 11514
Cross Streets:
Phone: (516) 739-3083
Hours:

and asked for "M Kroll" the receptionist said "oh Mark" and then began to connect me....

When who gets fired?

Two miracles take place at the consecration. The first is that the substance of the bread and wine change into Jesus Christ. [...] The second miracle is that the qualities of bread and wine still remain as though no change has occurred.

And here is the real deal breaker when it comes to respect. I mean, I respect a religious person the same as a non-religious person, and if the latter came to me with such an utter and transparent idiocy, I'd laugh at him. Why should it be any different with the religious one?

I love this new policy PZ. It only proves my long standing theory that these idiots are both infantile and stupid, the bullies on the elementary school playground who never learned how to put on their big boy pants and take criticism or humor.

Yeah seems to me if you're going to make death threats, don't make them from you place of business.

I was thinking of sending smontel an email with just "Matthew 26:52", but somehow, I don't think it would matter.

How the hell am I supposed get anything done at work when there are thousands of these posts? Stop being so entertaining! All of you!

in a world where we're not supposed to hurt or kill each other, we pathetic humans seem to spend a lot of time wishing death on each other.

I am sure this is just what jesus wanted.

I can't remember which page, but I am sure it's in the bible: people who don't believe what you do, just kill them.

god wanted us to off each other, that's why he invented handguns and Charlton Heston.

Now, be a good little god believer and get out there and increase the hate and separation in the world.

In christ's name!

W,

Weird. The auto-response said Melanie Kroll, and somebody else in these comments confirmed that a Karen M. Kroll worked at 1-800-FLOWERS. Perhaps Mark is related.

I can't wait until some makes me a T-shirt with
"It's a friggin' cracker" on the front.

People, I think it is poor form to be emailing 1-800-flowers. PZ is perfectly capable of handling this himself.

What if you are actually concerned about how the corporation handles this?

Not to generalize, but the original hate mail sounds more male than female to me. I'm betting on Mark.

mayhempix @ #856:

Thanks for the link to the religious gun porn. I laughed so hard I felt I had to pass it on to Gawd, who had a little something to say about it on today's blog.

I declare!

I can't believe y'all are up in arms over a little death threat!

How dare all you atheists/communists denigrate these folk by saying they ain't acting like good Christians!

They are most assuredly following the word of God! A simple perusal of the Old Testament oughta prove to you just how much the Good Lord despises unbelievers.

Why, these here Christian folks oughta be commended for so closely following in the footsteps God has chosen for His People!

I would like to make an addendum, though. I pray that these are both fellas doing all that threatening. God made men dominant, aggressive and violent. It's a woman's job to clean the home, raise babies and stay away from technology. So a woman posting threats is sacrilegious and evil; men posting threats (to non-Christians) is obeying God's word.

-Norma Jean

What if you are actually concerned about how the corporation handles this?

That's fine.

What I was worried about has been shown to have occurred.

Only problem with posting emails with full headers is:
the originating address can be easily spoofed, opening up
Myers to possible lawsuit if some "do-gooding" pharyngula-ists
launch a counter-attack upon the putative sender.

gotta say though (and im sure its already been mentioned):
how funny is the first guy criticizing PZ for his ignorance while spelling "college" wrong?

My work computer is password protected, as is my work email.This is a pain because I have to jump through 2 password hoops before I can send an email - but at least no one can use my computer or email program and say it'm se. There's a trail!

The question is whether Ms. Kroll's work computer and work email programs are password protected or not. If they are... then it's whoever has access to the passwords (not the computer), who is responsible for the email.

PZ MYers is the best argument I can find against tenure.

Here we have a liberal who wants to confiscate what he can't legitimately earn and silence those he disagrees with.

You can't make this stuff up.

It's time to end the public funding of education.

Posted by: James | July 14, 2008 11:08 AM

I'm grateful that PZ silences those he disagrees with so I don't have to read comments from morons like James.

My work computer is password protected, as is my work email.This is a pain because I have to jump through 2 password hoops before I can send an email - but at least no one can use my computer or email program and say it'm se. There's a trail!

The question is whether Ms. Kroll's work computer and work email programs are password protected or not. If they are... then it's whoever has access to the passwords (not the computer), who is responsible for the email.

It's a bit more complicated than that Cathy. They can spoof email servers to thing mail is coming from your account without ever having touched your computer or email client, password protected or not. Plus passwords can and are cracked.

I've really got to stop posting between reboots whiel troubleshooting one of our VMWare servers.

"They can spoof your email so that servers think mail is coming from your account"

Shall we play a game?

1. How many collage-college jokes from now to post 1000?
2. How many posts re: "I sent 1800FLOWERS an email to complain"?

I say 5, 4.

Fake religion hiding a multitude of sins.
The long slide into the dark begins.

@916:

Hi there

Not sure what this is or who you are. All i know is i have lots of
emails from some unhappy people. I have emailed the original recipient
an apology being an email was sent from my work email address without
my knowledge. The threat is empty nonetheless. I see that this PZ folk
has lots of supporters so he/she must be a good person. I can only
apologize again for this inconvenience.

Have a good day

Melanie

Melanie cannot know if the threat is empty or not, unless...

The blockquote thing hates me.

With some justification it's easy for critics to pounce on a perceived instance of intolerance. At the same time it's much, much too easy to ignore the socially dividing, intellectually and morally degrading effect of sustained belief and promotion of something so demonstrably false as the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation.

In a world in which critical and creative thought is always in catastrophically short supply, we should be aiming our rhetorical guns at all times on those beliefs which proudly champion the current sad state of affairs.

"If the reader of this e-mail is
not the intended recipient or his or her authorized agent, the
reader is hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or
copying of this e-mail is prohibited."

That's rich! Let's see him enforce it.

The blockquote thing hates me.

No, HTML hates you. The thing is, html tags do not behave the way my intuition expects. That is, stay in effect until explicetely closed by the "/" version of the tag. So lots of other events will close tags, like "hard" paragraph breaks. So to keep paragraph breaks in a blockquote, you need to use &ltbr&gt instead of a "return" (or "enter" key).

If the reader of this e-mail is
not the intended recipient or his or her authorized agent, the reader is hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is prohibited."
That's rich! Let's see him enforce it.

What's your point. almost all corporate mail systems tack this kind of boilerplate onto their e-mail.

clinteas wrote: pimbok,I pray for you.

---

That explains a lot. You believe in invisible sky monkeys.

As such, it's no wonder that you also believe that you're superior to everyone else (probably because of your invisible friend) and that you don't recognize the hypocrisy and hatred present in your posts.

"I pray for you."

I don't understand why they insist on telling us they're going to talk to themselves about us. Who cares?

Q: How do you say, "fuck you" in Christianese?

A: "I'll pray for you."

Q: How do you say, "fuck you" in Christianese?
A: "I'll pray for you."

Bless their hearts.

#944: "Melanie cannot know if the threat is empty or not, unless..."

...she read the original note either posted here or as quoted in the dozens of retaliatory emails sent her way by the itchy fingers here.

Noentheless, I'm sure some latecomers will still manage to send her some more nastygrams over the next few days, having blithely ignored the information revealed above that she *might* be a victim of a stolen account.

As I predicted earlier, PZ's policy of posting emails will full headers may become short-lived after this round of vigilante 'justice'.

"That explains a lot. You believe in invisible sky monkeys." retort to Clinteas.

Oh, here we go...
At the risk of sounding like a Concern Troll, lets not shit on everyone who doesn't consider themselves atheists. Some very reasonable, rational people will hang onto religious beliefs for a variety of reasons. It's the biblical literalists that deserve scorn, not just anyone who may still hold on to aspects of socially sanctioned mysticism. Scott Hatfield is a theist with an O.M. commendation, if I remember correctly. He's a pretty nice, very smart guy. We (if I may be so presumptuous) like him here at Pharyngula.

We aren't trying to purge the world from theology, we just hope theists will accept reason and rationalism over faith in the supernatural.
Yes, it's hard for me to understand those who can't make that final leap from faith, but who am I to judge. Let's be a little more discerning about whom we scorn, shall we?
(ducks and covers from the shitstorm of insults on the way)

mayhempix @ #856:
Thanks for the link to the religious gun porn. I laughed so hard I felt I had to pass it on to Gawd, who had a little something to say about it on today's blog.
Posted by: Randy | July 14, 2008 1:41 PM

It's good to know Gawd has an opinion on Gun Porn.

lets not shit on everyone who doesn't consider themselves atheists.

clinteas doesn't believe in invisible sky monkeys? I'm confused...

Some very reasonable, rational people will hang onto religious beliefs for a variety of reasons.

For good reasons?

me-"Some very reasonable, rational people will hang onto religious beliefs for a variety of reasons."
Tulse asks "For good reasons?"

Well, perhaps for misplaced altruistic reasons, does that count as good?
And no, I never gathered that Clinteas was a theist. I could be wrong though...

They forgot to sign it, "Jesus loves you!"

Professor Myers, this is sad indeed. I truly am ashamed of these two individuals.

However, this is what I have pointed out previously, that hatred breeds hatred. You may view the Eucharist as "a cracker", but you were fully aware of how serious Catholics are about it when you published your rant and made your threats. The articles about Webster Cook made that very clear and yet you persisted.

Again, I actually condemn the emails you've listed above. They are WAY out of line. But keep in mind that this is what happens when we stop behaving like intelligent human beings. Once you attack a group of individuals for something they believe in very strongly, it's natural for them to respond in this way. It's very wrong, but it's a basic instinct.

Hatred breeds hatred.

At #860, David Marjanović, OM said:
This is no more rationalistic than, say, Calvinism.

I always thought Calvin was one of the more rational contemporary philosophers. I was really quite dismayed when his comic strip ended.

Hatred breeds hatred.

whooooosh!

"Hatred breeds hatred."
Remember the old Chuck Jones/Warner Bros cartoon about the little boy who daydreamed constantly?
My favorite line, as he fantisized saving his father from cannibals, was: "I hated to have to kill them all - but they needed to be taught a lesson".

Does 1800flowers provide a variety of death threats to choose from? I'd like to send something to my boyfriend, we recently had an arguement. I figured flowers weren't a nice enough thought. Is there other businesses that participate in the sending of death threats? I want to choose the death threat that says just what I'm feeling.

Thanks!

"The articles about Webster Cook made that very clear and yet you persisted."

A kid gets threatened by a bunch of homicidal bullies and you think that is a fair enough warning to any that might take a different view to the baying sycophantic trolls...very Christian...actually very Catholic...in the extreme...a typical behaviour of a cult mentality that can only threaten and not think...

"Again, I actually condemn the emails you've listed above"

How could you not...be honest for once...it is disgusting...and a very sad excuse for so called Christians...funny you do not here Donohue calling that effluent a hate crime do you...

"But keep in mind that this is what happens when we stop behaving like intelligent human beings."

It certainly happens when a religious group decide to pleasure themselves...and none better then the Catholic bunnies by the shape of things...

Just because they have an invisible friend or friends...does not excuse the puerile nonsense they love to indulge in to prove some warped sense of.... holier then thou... look at me... I am a righteous believer in a delusional fairy story...tis pseudo machismo clap trap...and unworthy of a human being...

There is no excuse for it ..none...except for the fact that they are obviously religious devotees and that is "wot they do!"...they are nice folks really...yeah right!...they really should not breed...

Actually, the 1800flowers email is most likely not fake. Chances are, that person actually works for the company 1800flowers. I have had to work with some of their corporate folks in my job, and that is how their company email addresses end. You could probably quite easily get that person fired for that comment.

I work as an editor on non-majors Biology textbooks.We dont get the vitrol you get, but we do get some very strange offers to "correct" our books of the theory of evolution.It is amazing to me how someone can ignore science in such a blatantly idiotic way.

RE: AM post #967

I, among others, sent an email to 1800flowers.com notifiying them of this issue with a death threat appearing to be from one of their employees (Yes, I was polite). I received a response today. Here's the copy of what was replied to me:

"Thank you for contacting us.

We sincerely apologize for the inconvenience caused to you. We have filled out a report detailing the troubles you described. This report has been sent to the proper department for further action.

Thank you for bringing this to our attention, and again, we apologize for the inconvenience caused to you.

If you have any other questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to contact us at the address listed below."

300+ and the slider is only about a third of the way down the window. ABSURD!

So much for love your enemies and turn the other cheek...

#944: "Melanie cannot know if the threat is empty or not, unless..."...she read the original note either posted here or as quoted in the dozens of retaliatory emails sent her way by the itchy fingers here.

I'm not sure what you mean. Seems to me there's only one person capable of judging whether the threatening words emailed to PZ are empty or not, and that's the author of the email.

Melanie's reassurance to PZ that the threats are empty tends to implicate herself as their author.

I suppose there's another hypothesis: she's quite daft and confused about what words tend to mean in context.

MH wrote:

"Richard (#581), IT'S JUST A CRACKER!

You know, there was a time when even Christians thought that it was just a cracker; that it only represented Christ metaphorically. What happened to change that?"

It was actually Protestants who changed the belief that Christ was speaking literally (esp. in John 6:52 ff.) to that he was speaking symbolically. Christians started believing en masse that Christ spoke symbolically during the Protestant Reformation in the early 1600's. Even Martin Luther and John Wesley believed in certain variations in the literal sense of the Real Presence. Before the early 1600's, for the first three quarters of Christianity's history, the Eucharist was believed to be the actual body and blood of Christ. These teachings can even be found throughout the first five centuries of Christianity. For citations of such early teachings, see http://www.catholic.com/library/Real_Presence.asp

Wait, so I can call 1-800-FLOWERS and hire a thug to beat someone's bains in?

I need to start using this service.

RE: Santoki post #973

So far there hasn't been any violence, so unfortunately you can't call 1800flowers to "hire a thug to beat someone's brains in"

But apparently you CAN call 1800flowers and they will threaten to beat someones brains in.

I'm considering having a birthday death threat sent to my sister, as she lives far away, and she's not a big fan of flowers.

for FSM's sake, read the previous comments before posting your own. 144* comments into this thread, and probably 100 of them are people expressing the view that the first idiot did, indeed, send his email from 800Flowers, and advising PZ to turn the guy in to HR. At least scan the previous comments. Redundancy lends nothing to the discussion.

/irritated rant

*Of course, here I am admitting that I myself did not read all the comments, and if someone else addressed the redundancy issue post comment #144, I hereby apologize for my own redundancy.

RE: 10,000 maniacs post #975

Who are you responding to?

RE: Dr. Benway post #971

"Melanie's reassurance to PZ that the threats are empty tends to implicate herself as their author."

oooohHHHH! I like your logic!! HAHAHA!! That's a great point!

And if... she... weighs... the same as a duck...

RE: Dlux post #978

SHE'S A WITCH!!!

What I have learned from this thread: 1) Clearly homosapiens evolved from herd (social) animals. 2) Choose your herd memberships carefully. 3) Don't belittle the colors of "other" herds. 4) Homosapiens are in the process of evolution.

#968:

You know, this religious fanatic might want to try turning this into how he got fired (if he will) because of atheists disliking his holy cracker. Except, that he'll conveniently forget to mention that he used a company email address to threaten someone.

Posted by: Dr Benway 7:08 PM

Melanie's reassurance to PZ that the threats are empty tends to implicate herself as their author.

Or more likely, being informed that the threat was sent using her mail account, and also knowing that she didn't do it, without thinking it through she wrongly concluded that the threat was empty.

> There are too many of you

No there aren't.
Yes, there are.
But...
Shut up & let me do the talking.

"I work as an editor on non-majors Biology textbooks.We dont get the vitrol you get,"

Oops. Unintended irony, eh, Josh? I always hate trying to make a point and then find I humiliate myself with a typo. (And I do it often, dammit)
(editor -apostrophe, spacing, vitrol vs. vitriol)

Spamming them? How about reporting them to the appropriate authorities?
Posted by: JRY | July 13, 2008 5:02 PM

We did this about 4 posts ago. How many times are the cops going to click on his blog or email his boss ?

Surely you've not seen him post about these same threats half a dozen times and are still wondering whether anything is going on here beyond self promotion are you ?

FFS already, he saw someone get threatened over a minor desecration of a religious object and decided to publically state he'd wanted to get the same threats for threatening worse desecration.
Then he got the threats he solicited.
Then he's been posting about them ever since asking everyone to get behind him.
What is unclear here ?

There hasn't been an example of such a transparently self-serving attention whore since Paris Hilton took over distribution of her own sex tape.

@65

"The paranoia of impending doom coupled with the adrenaline rush of fear could cause him to recycle today's meals all over the floor."

Ooh - let's hope he didn't just have communion, then! Can you imagine? Jesus hurl everywhere! EWW!

I did send an inquiry to 1800flowers.com (see sender's address on first post listed above), as I have used their service from time to time, and I am concered about patronizing a business that would allow an employee (presumably) to use corporate facilities to make death threats. I will await their reply.

I contacted a journalist I used to work with this Monday, after I first read about this. I just got a mail a few minutes ago that Melanie was fired yesterday over her email.
Not sure if there will be a news article about this, or perhaps a generic "don't send threats from your workplace" type article, if anything.

Well, the news article is up...and for the sake of fairness, I find it pretty vile that someone's been convicted in the (Internet) course of public opinion and it's cost them their job. If she sent the threat, there's the FBI's IC3 unit that can look into it, who'll contact the local police. As it stands...where's the proof? Some shaky analysis by Internet posters, little more.

Death threats are vile, make no mistake. I agree with Dr. Meyers on his stance - the Florida reaction was ridiculous. But does it make sense that some posters here are engaging in precisely the same behavior that they claim to stand against?

Take a step back, folks - when you advocate spamming, threatening people for their beliefs, or other idiocy, then you just give the ones you're standing against more ammunition. Make a stance, and make it reasoned.

News article here:
http://www.networkworld.com/news/2008/071608-woman-fired-over-death-thr…

Jim Hague, I just clicked on your link.
It says, in part
After an internal investigation, the Internet retailer decided to terminate Kroll's position, according to Steven Jarmon, the company's vice president of brand communications. "All 1-800-Flowers.com associates are instructed that any misuse of company systems or equipment for personal purposes is potential grounds for dismissal," he wrote in an e-mail.

After reading the above, you then wrote:

I find it pretty vile that someone's been convicted in the (Internet) course of public opinion and it's cost them their job. If she sent the threat, there's the FBI's IC3 unit that can look into it, who'll contact the local police. As it stands...where's the proof? Some shaky analysis by Internet posters, little more.

Am I supposed to take you seriously?

Look what her hubby wrote:

c kroll, on July 16th, 2008 at 12:11 am Said:

Melanie Kroll did not send an email to anyone named Paul. Melanie Kroll did not threaten anyone in an email with death, or as was the case in the email in question, a physical beating.

this email did not come from 1-800-flowers, or anyone connected in anyway shape or form to that company, which happens to provide good paying jobs, for lot's of folks who might otherwise not have them. they also happen to provide a good product at a fair price.

The fact is, that this email to the so called professor, was sent by an angry male catholic, who was very upset after reading that some crazed person in a position of responsibility, charged with teaching children biology, had been encouraging people to steal and desecrate the body of CHRIST, which for Catholics is represented by the Eucharist.
I know this to be true, since I wrote the original email to this so called teacher.
Was the tone of the letter terse, and did I say I would beat his brains in, yes I did.
I wrote this in the same way one does when saying "I'll beat your ass", "or kick I'll kick your butt"

or other such niceties used by members of the unpolished masses, such as myself.
. I live a thousand miles away from this guy. My anger at what he (Myers) was doing, and the fact that there seems to be a double standard used by these so called intellectuals such as Paul Myers to attack the religion of millions of Americans, and to encourage others to do so made me see red. Pardon the pun.

Upon reflection, and reading many of the comments made, I feel that no matter how mad I was, it did not make it right for me to use the language or tone I used. In fact, I think there would have been many more constructive things I could have done, the angry email was just the simplest way.

And I'm sorry.

There are many folks that read, and biog. at this site who are not religious, perhaps you feel it's silly, outdated, or superstition, fine. This is your right, but for people in positions of responsibility and with the power to encourage captive undeveloped minds to attack their neighbors beliefs is just insane, divisive, and maybe even criminal.

I wonder if that university where mr. myers is employed excepts any money from the state? And I wonder if the good people of this state know that they are paying good, hard earned tax dollars on such a disturbing creature as mr. myers.? I know for a fact that the University is aware of mr. myers antics, and have disavowed his statements.
I am going to write to mr. Myers and offer him my apologies for using such childish language, and the threatening way in which I presented myself to him. It is my hope that he will forgive me, or hold me accountable. However, I think it is his duty to repair the damage that he and his associates have
achieved through their concerted and organized campaign to punish both Melanie Kroll, and 1-800-flowers, who were completely blameless in this matter.

However, this whole incident has caused someone who had nothing to do with the email to mr.myers,.a wonderful, sweet person who would never threaten anyone terrible troubles. Great harm has been done to this wonderful lady, without proof or a question asked, you just accuse, and assume. Wow and I thought you liberal folks were supposed to be the open minded ones.

It is my hope that since the mystery is now removed, and now that the Identity of the horrible person who dared write such crude things to the mr. myers is known, that the same people who put so much effort into harming Melanie Kroll, will use as much effort to right the wrong that has been done to her.

If there is responsibility, and any seek revenge or if there is a need for consequence, it should fall on me, and me alone.

The email account used to send the email was used by mistake, I sent the email from what I thought was my private account, not the 1-800 email account that was used. I had simply clicked on the link to the professors email in the article.

. It's somewhat amazing to me, that a guy responding (albeit brutishly) )to
a news article about a crazed professor who was encouraging his students and others to
desecrate the American catholic church, could turn into this orgy of innuendo, and an attack on an innocent, hard working mother of three, and a company that hires many underprivileged people, and single mothers as a matter of policy.

I want to thank some of the level headed people that have posted here. Some who seem so super smart to me, it's almost intimating! My sending mr. myers that wrongheaded stupid email was never the fault of Melanie Kroll, or 1800-flowers, or the pope, or Bill DONAHUE, not even the president. It was just my gut reaction to statements made by mr. myers and his disciples.

In closing I still maintain that if mr. myers. Or anyone, who is encouraging people to desecrate the Eucharist, or if he is doing so himself, I would like to beat his brains in, would I? I don't know.
I've never done so before. Though, at that one moment when I was reading his statements..?

I suppose If I caught him doing it, I would try to stop him.
I wonder if all of you perfectly politically correct folks here, the ones who prefer to stifle any thought, or debate that does not fit into the approved thoughts of the day.
Would find it so interesting, or funny, if mr.myers were attacking the Muslim or Jewish religions, or encouraging others do so?

What many folks don't know, is that mr. myers seems to have a warm spot for the Islamic religion. We know this from his spirited defense of Islam in the past, he insists Islam differs from other religions. It seems that mr.myers can't even be a good atheist.
His thesis is that, it's wrong to attack Islamic houses of worship and symbols, because they are poor and minorities. At least that is what a reasonable person would gather from mr. myers past statements.

That Islam is the largest religion in the world is of no matter to this professor.
why is that? Would not Islam be a fair target for mr.myers disgusting
attacks as well? If you believed that the attacks on Catholics are fair, even correct, then why not

other religions that hold that there is a God. Is Islam less wrong about this then Catholicism or Judaism mr. myers?

My feeling is that mr.myers would never dare attack Muslims, or their beliefs. Even though as an atheist, you think he would. I mean just to be fair. I hate to use a military term here, but my feeling is that Catholics are just easy targets for people like mr. myers.

As mr. myers, should know, and most intellectually honest people do know, attacking the Muslim religion or advocating attacks of it's symbols and traditions would not have resulted in a stupid but boorish email from a "Nutjob whacko, and all-around asshole catholic " as ole ylooshi here, so eloquently posted above.

It may very well have resulted (if the recent 30 or so year past is any indication) with the good professor hearing the words Allah Akbar shouted into his ear, while not so nice things were happening to him, perhaps things like, being shot in the lobby of a travel agency, being thrown overboard of his cruise ship, or being shot at the airport ticket counter at lax, or maybe being driven over by a student in the college parking lot, could be the bus he rides would have been torn to shreds by a homicide bomber, or even being murdered while riding his bicycle to work, or perhaps he would have been sitting at his office computer, when one the offended folks drove an airplane through his window.
Now I ask you, if that's a fact. am I lying.

C. Kroll,
Brookhaven, NY
p.s. it is my prayer that none of these terrible acts that I mentioned above happen to the good professor, or any other American for that matter. Jew, Christen, Muslim, or even atheist."

http://breakingspells.wordpress.com/2008/07/13/employee-of-1800flowersc…

See also:

Woman fired over death threat sent from work e-mail
By Robert McMillan , IDG News Service , 07/16/2008

An employee of 1-800-Flowers.com has been fired after an e-mailed death threat was linked to her account.

http://www.networkworld.com/news/2008/071608-woman-fired-over-death-thr…

Unfortunately, being a 'believer' doesn't mean you have to use your brains.

Now, up to work, Mt. Kroll, and make good for what your wife lost...

A homophobic florist? LOL

"the over-reaction is excessive, and you are not doing our reputation any favor."

ROTFLMU*UO!

You really are *too* funny P.Z.

Has it not occurred to you that *your* over-reaction to the desecrated communion wafer incident is just a tad *excessive*, and that *you* are not doing the reputation of atheists, to say nothing of rabid New Atheists aka Atheist Supremacists, any favor?

Robin Edgar,

Read this; it might help you understand (fingers crossed):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window

Oh, and no matter how many times you use the term 'Atheist Supremacist' it won't change the fact that it's woefully inaccurate and likely to be ignored.

ROTFLMU*UO again!

Maybe I'm just opening an "Overton Window" for the term "fundamentalist atheist" Wowbanger. . . ;-)

OTOH The term "Atheist Supremacist" most certainly is applicable to a certain subset of atheists, albeit a small minority of them. Anyway. . . I am quite gratified, and even a little proud, to see that I am on the cutting edge of pioneering that term.

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=Atheist-Supremacist&btnG=Search&met…

I am reasonably confident that the term "fundamentalist atheist", as well as the plural "fundamentalist atheists", will be considered to be Acceptable, Sensible, and even quite Popular. . . in the coming years.

http://www.google.ca/search?q=%22fundamentalist+atheist%22&btnG=Search&…

http://www.google.ca/search?q=%22fundamentalist+atheists%22&btnG=Search…

I am kind of partial to the term Evangelical Atheist(s) too. It certainly applies well to the "fundamentalist atheist" Richard Dawkins.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=evangelical+atheist&defi…

It's amazing how the Urban Dictionary definition of Evangelical Atheist so closely parallels the atheist evangelicism what can be seen in many of the comments here.

Still ROTFLMU*UO!

Still ROTFLMU*UO!

Posted by: Robin Edgar | July 18, 2008 12:21 AM

Still punching yourself in the groin I see...

Grt pst nd cngrts n rnnng ths grt blg. Jst cm crss t tdy nd sbscrbd t yr fd.