MMS (a.k.a., bleach) for autism: Just when I thought I was out...

OMG, Its Bleach!

OMG, it's made of people!

OMG, it's full of stars!

OMG, it's a trap!

Yeah, no reason to worry, none at all. Ever used bleach to decontaminate your hands because your microbiology lab ran out of soap? Give it a try and come back telling me that ordinary, low concentration bleach is harmless to human's skin.

Move on, we are an hedge. No, really.

Are corrosive substances the latest fad in woo land?

You have MMS, and I saw Blackcats mentions of 'Black Salve' (Zinc Chloride) in prior posts (and the awful images of its effects).

I wonder how long before they start on battery acid (it re-energises the cells!) or peroxides (kill the autism germs!).

Here's one for Orac ( to get his mind off bleach):
today's *belles lettres de mamans pensant* airs the interesting hypothesis that increases in aggression and un-ruliness by her autistic child co-vary with the phases of the moon.

Full moon's the worst time.

I swear, I'm not making this up!

@ Heliantus: Have you ever tried to avoid excoriating your hands, while scrubbing the green moss off outdoor deck railings with a bleach solution, by using...and ruining...a perfectly good pair of thick latex gloves?

If the solution burns holes in the gloves...just imagine the damage to a child's digestive tract. Ouch!

"the remnants of the old neurodiversity movement..."

Remnants? Does the poster mean the *majority* of parents of autistic children who live in the real world and have chosen proven methods of speech, OT, and other therapies to help their children adapt and thrive?

One thing I have observed of MMS discussions. The probability that an MMS advocate will invoke a conspiracy about the FDA and / or "big pharma" is almost 1.

It's like Godwin's law but with crazy paranoid alt health people.

I don't know about other countries, but around the late 1800's in England, drinking bleach became a popular mode of suicide. A horrible death, with the mucosa of the oesophagus and stomach being sloughed off, it made an aspirin OD seem humane in comparison (and they are bad enough).

This stuff is (typically) a mixture of (roughly) 5% sodium hypochlorite while MMS is 28% sodium chlorite. While the names sound quite similar, they are not the same thing nor do they have the same properties.

This sounds like MJ is trying to repackage the argument that science-based types used to address anti-vaccine claims that vaccines contained antifreeze. He may have figured it worked well to address the antifreeze nonsense, so it must work for this, too!

or peroxides (kill the autism germs!)

Ooh. Now that would be interesting. I wonder what they would do when they find out that hydrogen peroxide, for instance, can act as a mutagen.

** Shilling for Todd W. here...on a *positive note* Texas has lifted Mark Geier's medical license...only three more states still *permit* him to *practice*

http://silencedbyageofautism.blogspot.com/2012/06/mark-castrate-em-geie…

Note to Todd W. If your Quacktion (TM) figures ever get manufactured, I expect my large ** shill discount for the entire set.

One of the points missed in the dismissal of MMS as a viable cure for autism anything, is the delay in getting real, tested protocols to market.

The years and cost required to develop and test real drugs is long and enormous. Parents with a 5 year old severely autistic child will likely see that child grow through adolescence before a treatment proposed today, assuming it works at all, can reach the market.

This is a big reason, in my estimation, for the success of woo, including but clearly not limited to, MMS. You can have it now and feel like you are taking a proactive step to help your kid. If SBM takes too long, warrior moms must act. Or something.

Guess what popped up in the random ad space at the top of the page for me?

MMS MIRACLE 4 OZ MMS $8
J. Humble Approved! Free Shipping Professional Grade MMS & Activator
www.buymms.biz

@lilady

Thanks for the plug!

As to the Quacktion Figures, alas, they will likely never become real toys. Legalities and all that.

It's not really bleach - you know, the kind with a Chlorox label! It's just a potent oxidizer.

Well, I feel better now.

IMO MJ's statement

But which presentation does the remnant of the old neurodiversity movement focus on and hold up as the poster child of the conference? [Emphasis mine]

is of a piece with such claims as:
- the old (science-based) guard of medicine is getting swept away by the 'new paradigm' (of re-branded quackery)
- increasing numbers of scientists question the consensus behind {evolution, global warming, take your pick}

and suffice to say, makes me rather suspicious.

"A lot of familiar arguments are then trotted out, such as how chlorine dioxide is used to purify water and how, if you’ve ever gone swimming in a swimming pool, you’ve gone 'swimming in bleach.'"
I've gone swimming in the Dead Sea. I wouldn't drink a cup of that water and I certainly wouldn't want it shoved up my bum.
If I had ever ordered a bleach enema for a patient, no matter what I thought the indication was, I would have been out of a job, out of a license, and facing assault charges, in very short order.

Someone keep track of which Autism or if ANY alt-med groups repudiate the use of MMS.

I'm somewhat amazed that when it's pointed out that drinking a bleach solution or administering bleach enemas is BAD, no group has said "Well....we need to rethink our all inclusive alt-med philosophy, because this makes us look like dangerous simpletons.".

Someone else seems to have set up a website, or a blog, devoted to MMS and autism.

I found this scathing screed about Todd Drezner and his Hu-Po story last night. The writer not only manages to defend MMS with all the same arguments Orac mentons above, but even worse, attacks Drezner for not trying to "fix" his own son. The post says that MMS would put Drezner and his film out of business, among other sickening comments and personal attacks. Such as:

Drezner’s investigative journalism is suspect. If he has a press badge, it may have come from a Cracker Jack box. His accusations are ulterior and groundless. Does he really think Kerri Rivera has a stake in the sale of sodium chlorite? Does he really think she doesn’t love her son and would pour common household bleach down his throat? Did he speak with her regarding the 38 cases of Autism helped by chlorine dioxide therapy? Did he ask to speak to the parents of those children? Did he write the webmaster of the “MMS Website” (miralcemineral.org) and ask for any evidence of their claims? Did he really do any investigation at all? Nope.

Grant it, MMS and chlorine dioxide may not be an end-all answer to ASD, only courageous parents will know, but Drezner will never know; and sadly, neither will his son. That’s because his Dad puts big profits before little people, even his own little people.

Very few things are more abhorrent than a parent who would exploit their child for fame and fortune. How sobering it might be to one day learn how your own greed and ignorance deprived hundreds of thousands of their right to knowledge that might have given them a fuller life.

Why would anyone want to watch a documentary produced by a hopeless father who’s resigned himself to the status quo? Drezner would have all parents of Autistic children buy his DVD and join him in his march to mediocrity. Drezner’s son deserves his father’s honest inquiry; because if a father won’t fight for his own son, who will?

It's a nasty piece of writing. Here's the part about MMS:

Drezner seems to understand “value, emotion, and urgency”, the three keys to effectively marketing to human nature. And obviously, because he’s published on Huffington Post a whopping 15 times (all adverts for his DVD), readers might assume he knows “bleach” from a hole in the ground.

Unfortunately for Drezner’s readers, this is not the case. First of all, the word “bleach” merely means “to whiten”. In a chemical sense, this is most often done via “oxidation”. If we were all to follow Drezner’s and Willingham’s lead, we might as well stop breathing, since O2 has a higher oxidation potential (1.3v) than chlorine dioxide (.95v).

Drezner and Willingham try to confuse readers into thinking chlorine dioxide, the topic of Rivera’s lecture, is the same as everyday household bleach (sodium hypochlorite). That is exactly the same propaganda recently employed by the Food and Drug Administration to curb public interest in the grassroots sodium chlorite and chlorine dioxide movement.

However, based upon clinical research, a 1993 U.S. Patent (No. 6086922) states the following facts about sodium chlorite and chlorine dioxide:

“It is therefore quite unexpected that, with an intravenous administration of an appropriate chlorite matrix in the appropriate concentration, HIV viruses can be directly combated in the blood… The chlorite matrix solutions of the present invention also do not exhibit adverse effects such as severe cytotoxic damage and the like, typically associated with highly toxic chemicals which are administered intravenously [i.e. vaccines]. The chlorite matrix solutions of the present invention further are capable of inactivating the HIV virus to thereby inhibit infection of undamaged cells.”

The website: http://www.mmsautism.com/

I'm a bit surprised by the application of the term "neurodiversity movement" to SBM. Soi-disant neurodiversity advocates I've encountered have been critical of mainstream medicine, for trying to treat what, according to them, isn't pathological.

@Marc Stephens,
A poster on LBRB with the nym Francesca has a that site linked to her name. Oddly, rather than calling it Miracle, s/he calls it Master Mineral Solution.

S/He started to throw out oxidation potentials but was shot down pretty quickly by Sullivan and others. Also, completely unable to see the value in linking to studies showing efficacy. I wonder why.

@ MikeMa: Good points you raised about alternative *treatments/cures* for autism.

I'm sure when gullible parents brought their children to quacks and DAN! doctors they did some research about the use of chelation, HBOT and Lupron therapies for heavy metals toxicities, treatment of gangrenous limbs and cancers and central precocious puberty. They just *assumed* that their quacks and DAN! doctors opted for *off label* treatments.

The lawyer/scientist/*journalist* at AoA probably did some research into stem cell therapy before he took his daughter offshore for intrathecal infusions of "G-d knows what noxious substance" for *treatment/cure* of her autism.

I just don't see any future for MMS bleach to be used for any *off label* *treatment/cure* of any disease or disorder.

@ Lilady

Actually, yes, I did notice that latex gloves are not much protection against blench and many organic solvents.

If the solution burns holes in the gloves…just imagine the damage to a child’s digestive tract.

I think I can, quite vividly. I was just telling myself I'm over-reacting. Surely these people using MMS will notice it, yes? Yes?

MikeMa,

From my reading I believe the original name Humble came up with was Master Mineral Supplement. He ran into some legal issues calling it a supplement (implying it was intended for human consumption) so he tweaked the name to Miracle Mineral Solution. Because anything with the word "miracle" of course gives it more credibility.

Maybe some older believers still mix up the two names.

By the way, i was reading the spam ad that pops up here for sodium chlorite powder ("best prices!"). It takes one pound of sodium chlorite mixed with one pound of citirc acid to create 32 fluid oz. of MMS. That seems like a lot of solids suspended in a relatively low amount of water.One supporter claims it tastes like oranges.

Did mj just turn his comments at LB/RB into a blog post despite being totally shown up by Sullivan, Science Mom and others?

@ Marc Stephens: Oh Cripes, she has a diary up and it appears the is bathing her child in bleach and may have taken her child off anticonvulsant medication, as well.

I think I've encountered and tangled with this *mother* on other blogs.

Meanwhile, Todd Drezner's blog is still going strong at the Ho-Po The overwhelming majority of posters are labeling MMS for what it is; child abuse. The usual deranged crank posters are trolling there as well...more fun for the RI Regulars to call them out for their off-topic inanities.

Good job misrepresenting what I wrote.

If anyone here actually cares what I did say , I would suggest that you click on the link in the post and read the original for yourself.

Has anyone noticed Humble is now promoting a "new and improved" MMS 2? The best news is, according to Humble, you can make it yourself by buying swimming pool shock granules and putting them in capsules. Pool shock is about 70% calcium hypochlorite. One pound per 10,000 gallons water. What's the concentration when used as MMS?

MMS2 is composed of calcium hypochlorite - which turns into hypochlorous acid in the body, which is something our body usually makes in very small quantities and is used by the immune system to fight disease. For various reasons, someone might be deficient in the myeloperoxidase that the body needs to make the hypochlorous acid. MMS2 is commonly sold OTC as "pool shock" (and it doesn't have chlorine, not to worry, but it smells so strongly, it is usually dosed in a capsule with water before and after). The water is also necessary to change the calcium hypochlorite into hypochlorous acid. BTW, there are a number of products sold as "pool shock" - you would want to get only the calcium hypochlorite. It's going to come in various "percents" - and traditionally we use the 65% or more calcium hypochlorite.

Both MMS1 and 2 work on an oxidation principle. For most people, MMS1 is sufficient to handle whatever is going on. MMS2 is usually added in life threatening situations.

This just keeps getting more and more depressing.

Lil: off topic, but I only just ventured to the Ho-Po for the first time due to the Drezner piece. Is that "Sharon" woman for real? Has she been posting stuff like that for a long time? She ranks up there with rustichealthy from Orac's "friend's" blog for sheer lunacy.

Blimey, MJ didn't get enough of an education at LB/RB about his innane pedantry, he had to write his own post whining about it? His carping amounts to his usual defense of biomeddlers whilst trying to appear the 'rational impartial' spokesperson for something and trying to deflect attention away from the crankfest of AoA and their 'offerings' .

Heliantus:

I think I can, quite vividly. I was just telling myself I’m over-reacting. Surely these people using MMS will notice it, yes? Yes?

I fear not, Heliantus. Remember: folks using black salve (which causes severe chemical burns) think it's doing only good things, even when they get it somewhere else on their bodies and see it do its nastiness there. I hope some will figure it out, but if you're far enough down the rabbit hole try try MMS, you probably aren't seeing properly anymore.

Chelation and Lupron were bad enough, but being approved pharmaceuticals used off-label probably stopped criminal prosecution. MMS is not approved anywhere as a medical treatment for anything, and it's patently obvious it's doing harm; surely it's only a matter of time before CPS intervenes in one of these cases? I can only hope. I put it on a par with the vegan couple who fed their baby a vegan formula that they'd come up with themselves, even as the baby starved to death; they did face criminal prosecution, and they should. They think they're doing what's right, and they're living by their beliefs, and most likely doing it all out of love, but that doesn't change that what they're doing is horrible for the child. They go after parents who use prayer to treat meningitis; they should go after these parents too.

@ Marc Stephens: Did you happen to read the MMS *Fact Sheet* on that link you provided? It's a hoot!

The MMS *Fact Sheet* mentions the support of an MMS supplier whose operation was shut down by the FDA and whose *cause* has been taken up by the "U.S. Observer"

The "U.S. Observer" is, as yet, an untapped goldmine for any science blogger:

http://www.usobserver.com/archive/may-12/MMS-targeted.htm

Someone else seems to have set up a website, or a blog, devoted to MMS and autism.

It's registered to one Guillermo Rivera, "Mano a Mano," with a Verisign contact. The PayPal donation link sends money to kerririvera@yahoo.com. I'll skip the rest.

@ Marc Stephens:

"Lil: off topic, but I only just ventured to the Ho-Po for the first time due to the Drezner piece. Is that “Sharon” woman for real? Has she been posting stuff like that for a long time? She ranks up there with rustichealthy from Orac’s “friend’s” blog for sheer lunacy."

I nailed that "Sharon" woman months ago on the Ho-Po, when she posted one of her many rants against vaccines and against *Big Pharma*

That "Sharon" woman claimed to have her *illustrious* career as a "bookkeeper and whistle blower at HHS" cut short because of damage from a contrast material used during a medical procedure. She's a proven pathological liar, science illiterate, and an egocentric resident troll. Kelly M. Bray, Autismum and I, have had some great fun poking fun at her and informing her that her brain droppings are off-topic and offensive.

The folks promoting MMS would fail an introductory chemistry course.

My personal favorite line was (paraphrasing) "The ClO2 ion is able to rip up to 5 electrons..."

Which type of ion? There's a cation and an anion.

ClO2- is called chlorite, not the 'chlorine dioxide ion'.
ClO2+ is called chloryl. Cl here is indeed +5, however the 'ripping of up to 5 electrons' isn't going to happen quite as they wish, since it reacts VIOLENTLY with water and other organic compunds (blood, the lining of your intestines, etc).

These idiots are poisoning their kids.

@MJ

How, specifically, have I "misrepresented" you? Note that I did provide a link to your original post so that people could judge for themselves if my assessment of your pedantic picking of nits and verbal prestidigitation was fair.

What really gets me is that you can buy MMS, black salve etc. from Amazon.

@ Calli

surely it’s only a matter of time before CPS intervenes in one of these cases?

Oh yeah. The earlier the better.
Unless our woo-loving Libertarian politicians get their utopia of freedom for all, responsibilities for no-one.
I didn't realize until now, but since Dingo199 described the damage of MMS to the children's bowels (to quote him from the previous MMS thread):

Pictures of “parasites/worms” emerging after MMS purging are nothing more than strips of fibrinous material and bits of intestinal mucosal lining that has been stripped away from the bowel

I went from merely concerned to outright horrified. I think I'm in shock, actually.
These idiots of caricature of parents are skinning their children alive.
I'm trying to usually cut some slack at people which are acting out of ignorance or misguidance, but not here, not anymore.
If you are so far down the un-reality hole that you will only wake-up if someone slap you hard, and you are abusing your children in the process, then someone has to slap you hard. Repeatedly.

They go after parents who use prayer to treat meningitis; they should go after these parents too.

They are already not going often enough, and harsh enough, at these other parents, in my opinion.
And if a party touting "family values" and/or strong support of religion come to power, they will no longer go at anyone.

MJ made a large number of comments at Left Brain/Right Brain, so I think I've got the gist of his argument without reading his blog.

When given the chance to stand up for what is right. When given the chance to stand up against dosing disabled children with a chemical with no biological plausibility that it might help, and evidence that it is making them sick.

When given the chance to have his voice heard, he chose to defend his own unique definition of the word "bleach".

@MJ
You said MMS was not bleach. By any reasonable measure, that statement is bullshit.

You were asked repeatedly to lay off the nits and show solid, scientific evidence that MMS is helping anyone outside a laundry. You failed to do so.

You want to try again?

Some of those claims made me want to put my head through my monitor, and my mental reaction was to curse a blue streak.

Again - I want to see the how many autism alt med groups denounce this garbage for what it is. Or be labeled enablers, because truthfully that's what they are.

IV chlorite solution? That sounds lethal, or something a heroin addict would accidentally do.

From Humble

MMS2 is usually added in life threatening situations.

Situations which are going to happen after a few cycles of MMS 1. Nice idea, to create an even more dangerous form for the coup de grace.

and it doesn’t have chlorine, not to worry

Yeah, it just has hypochlorite.
Mr Humble, would you like to drink some prussic acid I happen to have nearby? Not to worry, it doesn't have any cyanide.
(disclosure: no, I don't have any)

which turns into hypochlorous acid in the body, which is something our body usually makes in very small quantities

Inside specialized vacuoles of our white cells, you frecking lying sleazy shitbag.
Fair warning: Never come next to me, Mr Humble, or any of your associates. I would not be able to guarantee your security.

@ Marc...Sharon is insane.

She posted this....
"
The keyboard skeptics main goal is to discredit and spin. Here are some tools you might find useful.

1. Never get into an argument over science with a keyboard skeptic they make things up as they go along and consume an enormous amount of your time. It's best not to engage with them.

2. Put them on the defensive by constantly attacking the reasons they are posting. After all they have anointed themselves judge, jury and executioner of anything that isn't "con med".

3. Don't back down ever; most good doctors appreciate us shining a light on them.

4. Turn the debate around to benefit society. They are trying desperately to dominate the debate on healthcare but there is no debate, our system is broken and needs to be fixed and you are doing society a favor by pointing out the waste, fraud and abuse in the status quo. "

I posted this.........

"Let me help you Sharon. I will translate your tools for you so they are easier to understand.

1. Never get into an argument over science. We would not know science if it bit us on the butt. If confronted with scientific evidence that we are wrong change the subject or go to another thread. We have the power of slogans, anecdote, truthiness, and factoids. Use them.

2. Put them on the defensive by attacking them personally. An ad hominum attack is perfect when we are caught looking stupid and desperate.

3. Don't back down ever, even when we are shown to be completely wrong. That is the best time to double down on the stupid. Make up things as you go.

4. Change the subject as often as you can. If they show we are completely wrong about biology, chemistry and immunology as they always do, run. Get philosophical, get off topic.

Hope that helps SH. "

It’s a nasty piece of writing....

If we were all to follow Drezner’s and Willingham’s lead, we might as well stop breathing, since O2 has a higher oxidation potential (1.3v) than chlorine dioxide (.95v).

Not that Kerri isn't also down with ozone, of course.

At least the autism/MMS boosters haven't caught on to MMS 2 yet.

Maybe as suppositories? To supplement the enemas? As if that area of their child's posterior isn't already raw and irritated enough. That's just proof that the MMS is working!

Hey, I'm onto something here. See you all in Mexico.

@ OMG MJ...have you forgotten your good manners and not thanked Orac for plugging your blog? It is considered "good form" to thank a fellow blogger or poster for plugging your blog (See Todd W's post back at me, above.)

Try to remember that you should be thanking Orac for the "plug" and for giving you the forum to "clarify" your statements about the properties of MMS. We are all awaiting your clarification.

BTW MJ, I find the tone of your blog somewhat offensive...

-Your ability to straddle the fence when it comes to MMS *treatments/cures* for autism.

-Your pretense of concern for division within the autism community

-Your non-empathy for the hapless children who are subjected to oral bleach doses, bleach enemas and bleach baths.

-Your feeble attempts to defend child abusers

So...give it your best *shot* MJ. Prove to us, that Orac and o posters on this thread have wrongly accused you of pandering to the quacks, the parents who do these *treatments* and the MMS *treatment* apologists.

Kelly and lil,

Thanks for the update on Sharon. I pretty much figured her out just by reading her MMS comments. I presume she spews on other health-related boards, but it's always one message repeated ad nauseum.

I'm surprised people like Sharon haven't discovered RI or SBM--they'd have a field day. Even that deluded shotgun-packing vitamin shill rustichealthy has never discovered Orac's blog, and there's certainly enough cross-posting that a Google search would bring her here.

@ Marc Stephens:

"I’m surprised people like Sharon haven’t discovered RI or SBM–they’d have a field day."

Au contraire...have you any idea how carefully (easy on the snark and sarcasm), I chose my words to get past "moderation" on the hive? (How did my advice to her to stick the MMS solution into her own place "where the sun don't shine, make it past the censors?)

It would be a "field day" for me, if she came posting here with her drivel.

@Anj - found an interesting post on Gaia Health about MMS. The gist of it is that it's obviously poison, but it just goes to show how the REAL enemy is still the FDA, since they don't do anything about it. Not really what you're looking for, but interesting just the same.

http://www.gaia-health.com/articles301/000308-mms-is-pure-poison-but-th…

*Yet another "health freedom" site about sticking it to the man, nature good and science evil, etc.

@Marc Stephens:

I certainly wasn't happy to read that blog about me. But I was comforted that it appears to be appout a bizarro fantasy person who shares my name, but nothing else. It also takes place in a world where the economics of independent documentary filmmaking are very different than they are here in the real world.

I'm working, semi-successfully, to develop a thick skin and move on. Thanks for the support.

OT: just something more lighthearted to take our mind away from MMS, but still inside alt-med world.

PZ Myers just reported being "expelled" by the organizer of the Canary party national convention, about 12 minutes after he registered.
As he said, that was fast.

@Orac,

The main misrepresentation was that you missed the entire point. Nowhere do I suggest that MMS is a good thing or defend its use, quite the opposite in fact. I think I quite clear that using MMS is a bad idea, a fact that you failed to even mention in your rant.

You also misrepresented me, personally, with statement such as "MJ also has no understanding of clinical trial ethics and science-based medicine". You don't know anything about me or what my background is, nor have you apparently bothered to take the time to find out what I understand or don't understand, you simply go straight for the personal attacks.

No, the main point - the one that you missed - was that the use of hyperbolic rhetoric is counter productive. But since your writing style is almost defined by its hyperbolic and rhetorical nature, I don't really expect you to agree with or understand that point.

Read the post again. Your reading comprehension obviously isn't so good. I said that you conceded that MMS was a bad idea. I also said that you used pedantry and bad arguments to argue that, even though MMS for autism a bad idea, apparently it's not nearly as bad as its critics are making it sound.

As for my style being full of "hyperbolic rhetoric," well, that's only true when I want it to be. MMS quackery rises (or falls, depending on how you want to look at it) to the level where I want it to be. Dosing autistic children with MMS is "worthy" of such rhetoric. In fact, I actually rather held back a bit.

@mj
I don't see any personal attacks mj. All I see from Orac is fundamentaly flaws in your "arguments".

All that has been pointed out was how terribly weak your argument was.

So point out where Orac has "attacked you", because I don't see it. I'll be waiting, but I don't see anything that proves your point.

And yes, I have read your "article", and it was full of pseudoscience and outright quackery.

As an aside, I do find it humorous that every time quacks and trolls have their arguments pointed out as flaws, they usually say that they've been personally attacked while at the same time, they throw invective and ad hominems.

Funny how a quack's mind work.

MJ, are you going to correct the most serious error you made on your blog? As Orac points out, you wrote:

The target number that you are supposed to get to with MMS is 1 ppm (part per million) of chlorine dioxide.

That is simply not true. Humble recommends slowly increasing the dose to 15 drops, that is 150 milligrams of sodium chlorite, or about 120 milligrams of chlorine dioxide. Rivera recommends up to 24 drops a day, which is 240 milligrams of chlorine dioxide or 190 milligrams of chlorine dioxide. You would have to dilute that in 190 liters of water to get a concentration of 1 part per million (1 milligram per liter). Clearly drinking that much water during the course of one day would be fatal in itself.

To echo some of the comments on MJ's blog, how is it that the same people who thought that a dose of mercury as thimerosal in vaccines that was approaching but not exceeding the EPA daily safety limit was incredibly toxic, yet dosing a child with an amount of chlorine dioxide that exceeds the EPA daily safety limits by a factor of over a hundred is somehow OK?

I meant "240 milligrams of sodium chlorite".

MJ @ 5:21 pm 21Jun12

Nowhere do I suggest that MMS is a good thing or defend its use, quite the opposite in fact.

But in fact you do defend it. Maybe you don’t see it that way – allow me to explain. Your complaints about the misuse of the word “bleach” align you with MMS supporters, not MMS critics. If you are rebutting the critics, you are defending the practice. Because that's what rebutting does.

If defending MMS was not your intention, you should not have dedicated nearly 50% of your blogpost (about 1480 out of 3000 words) to regurgitating its defenders’ claims.

And adding the concluding line “So, how about we all turn down the rhetoric a little?” doesn’t meant that’s what your post is about. The body of the post says otherwise.

Almost completely OT, but so funny I just couldn't help sharing. This message recently posted to the yahoo group EoHarm:

Posted by: "Rts Ahrens" rtss55@yahoo.com rtss55
Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:09 am (PDT)

Just want to relate an experience I had yesterday. Fortunately, I am under the care of a homeopath.

Upon walking past a big-box store group of employees de-boxing clothes, I realized that I probably needed to take my chemical allergy remedy when I returned home. Well, I was distracted with something else and awoke the next morning with no memory of the prior year..... I mean a new freind's children who I had just met days earlier, password for an email account a changed six weeks ago and had constantly used, etc. This was very scary. My spouse had the good sense to contact my doc and proceeded to drive me to the office.

I had been hit with formaldyde and it took an hour to clear me of this toxic chemical.

In conclusion, not only can we blame aluminum in vaccines for the nightmare of alzheimers or dementia, but you can add formaldehyde to that list (also in some vaccines).

Be careful where you walk with your chemically- sensitive children ..... and yourself for that matter. The only doctor who can help you detox this is going to be a homeopath.

Weeks ago an emergency room doctor put me on an intravenous feed of a saline solution as a treatment for dehydration. Got a whole bottle. That tell you anything about dehydration?

(Absent minded, and I'm prone to diarrhea thanks to my SSRI.)

Broken Link,

Her homeopath can help her forget the formaldehyde?

"If defending MMS was not your intention, you should not have dedicated nearly 50% of your blogpost (about 1480 out of 3000 words) to regurgitating its defenders’ claims."

The regurgitation would make sense, if he's been sampling the wares...

@Mu: I contacted Amazon and asked them to remove MMS from their sales offerings. Maybe if more people contacted them, they would actually do it.

Hang on, I"m confused again.

So, the same people who don't/can't differentiate between different types of mercury in vaccines, can tell the difference between types of chlorine? And are arguing one form's safe?

And as someone who swims 4-5 times a week - you swallow too much chlorinated water, and you do start to feel a little ill. God forbid it wasn't diluted, whatever the form. (pool at my gym was once shut down for a few days when someone used too much chlorine in it - apparently it's a health risk or something. Who knew?)

MJ, the "can't we all just get along," ploy is offensive. You are, essentially, imploring those rightly outraged by the fact that people will force bleach (yes it is) into their autistic child to ignore it and play nice. I, for one, can't and won't.

It's "hyperbolic" to call a bleach a bleach.

Chlorine dioxide is more toxic than the active ingredient in household bleach.

The oral LD(50) in rats is 292 mg/kg
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguidelines/chlorinedioxide/recognition.h…

Assume a half-kilogram rat (typical weights are between 250-500gm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laboratory_rat)

So, from "This means giving children between 64 and 192 mg of chlorine dioxide per day, depending on the child’s weight. ". At 192mg dose would be 384mg/kg, or enough to kill a big rat.

Sodium Hypochlorite (what we can call bleach without being hyperbolic) has an LD50 of 8910 mg/kg. 384mg/kg is notable (about 5%) of the LD50 for a rat (www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9925001).

So, how, exactly, is referring to this substance as Bleach hyperbolic?

A similar dose of "bleach" would likely make the rat ill, but of Chlorine Dioxide, this will kill the rat.

Calling "MMS" bleach *downplays* the substance.

I suppose if you put calcium hypochlorite into capsules that would survive through the stomach, you might get hypochlorous acid further down the gut. I don't have info for calcium hypochlorite but sodium hypochlorite at a pH below about 3 will decompose to water and free chlorine. Chlorine isn't very soluble in water. Given the pH in the stomach, I would expect to be belching clouds of chlorine if I consumed calcium hypochlorite. (My grandfather would have had something to say on the wisdom of that - he was repeatedly exposed to chlorine as a chemical weapon in WWI.)
~~~
"Sodium hypocchlorite, sodium chlorite and hydrogen peroxide are the three oxidants predominantly used for bleaching cellulosic fibres." Cellulosics Dyeing, Shore, ed, SDC, 1995

Sodium chlorite is used to produce chlorine dioxide which can't be transported as a gas, given its propensity for, uh, coming apart rather violently. Chlorine dioxide is also extemely corrosive to most metals.
~~~
When I was trying to find info on sodium chlorite, I did get the impression that there may be legitimate use for it as a mouthwash for certain conditions.

So, do I read your post correctly MJ...that you are not pleased with Orac's plugging of your blog? Too bad.

Have you ever seen a chemical burn on human skin, MJ? You do understand that the epithelial tissue lining the digestion tract is more delicate and prone to injury from bleach...and from having catheters shoved up your rectum, repeatedly to deliver MMS bleach enemas, don't you?

Oh, and your analogy about chemicals using to bleach flour is bogus, as well.

Did you know that lye is used to in the process for dried cod? So do you agree that because of that cod processing practice, that this would be a harmless *treatment/cure* for autism?...

http://www.rbnainfo.com/MSDS/US/EASY-OFF-Oven-Cleaner-Heavy-Duty-US-Eng…

A friend of mine makes his own pretzels and swears by food-grade lye to create a deep-brown, crisp crust. You need to jack the pH as high as you can, and nothing works like lye. But it has to be handled very carefully, because it's highly caustic despite being "food grade". None of the lye remains in the final product or the prestzels would be deadly (and not taste very good!)

t have baked using ammonia instead of baking powder. It makes the house smell awful for a while but it burns off in the oven.

Both chemicals are safe for some food applications but dangerous when handled or used incorrectly. Bleach and pool shock, on the other hand, have no safe food applications ever.

@ Marc Stephens: Didn't I see lye (food grade or industrial grade), cited on the PubMed website, when I searched for clinical indications for MMS *treatments*?

Certain people also seem to be misreading the "industrial" word as meaning extremely strong instead of meaning the more literal meaning of used in industry. Another example of the "industrial" uses of this product is making white flour - in some cases, flour is literally sprayed into the air in a room full of chlorine dioxide to remove the color (and all of the nutrients) from the flour. If you ever wondered how flour turns white or why it has to be enriched after the fact it is because it was bleached. So, if you eat white flour, you are possibly eating a food that has been bleached by the same bleach in MMS.

This is so wrong for two reasons: bleached and unbleached flour have identical nutritional profiles. The nutrient-stripping stage occurs before bleaching, and both bleached and unbleached flour is enriched. (Maybe MJ is comparing bleached vs. whole wheat flour, but even ww flour is enriched.)

Secondly, most commercial flour producers use benzoyl peroxide to bleach flour. Sometimes chlorine gas is used, but that is not the same as chlorine dioxide. And definitely not the same as MMS. In fact chlorine dioxide is never used in US flour factories because it is too unstable and not worth the risk. A flour mill is already a powderkeg waiting to go up in flames, and when you add an unstable combustible agent like chlorine dioxide, it's asking for trouble.

And all bleach agents are now banned in flour in Europe, so it's a moot point.

lilady,

Only when applied anally. Or via IV drip.

I was wrong about whole wheat flour--it is not enriched. The whole point of enriching is to restore the elements contained in ww flour but stripped out of all-purpose (bleached or unbleached) flour.

Actually, "industrial" also means not pure enough for human consumption. For instance, there is a drug I use in my experiments that's an FDA-approved drug. However, what I buy is research grade, which is not sufficiently pure and hasn't been manufactured using processes used to make drugs for humans. I use it in cell culture and in mice. Industrial grade is even less pure than research grade.

As a former hiomebrewer I had to seek out medical-grade oxygen because industrial-grade wasn't pure enough to inject into the fermenting wort. Industrial-grade is allowed to contain more impurities, including toxic gases, and the cylinders it's shipped in are held to a lower standard.

Just an FYI. The Gaia health article linked above has a lot of burning stupid in the comments. I an going over later to mess with some heads. I would appreciate a bit of company.

Kelly,

Don't bother--that piece is almost two years old. It was still being referred to as "supplement" back then.

Damn Marc....I must say in two years the stupid has not improved much. Funny, we learn over time, the alties keep making the same mistakes over and over for years.

Lye is used in processing rather a large number of food products (e.g. canned tomatos, hominy). It is also part of the reason that household bleach is so corrosive - most bleaches contain free sodium hydroxide, deliberately left from the manufacturing process (passing chlorine through an NaOH solution) to keep the bleach stable and maintain the pH high enough during use to prevent it from destroying cotton.

Research grade chemicals may well be of higher purity than those used in pharmaceuticals. "USP" (or "BP") grades are usually considerably cheaper than "reagent" grades. Partly it is a matter of what impurities are important and the ratio of paper to product. For the oxygen that MSIS mentioned, small amounts of air or nitrogen in medical oxygen would be quite acceptable, but would be be unacceptable in high purity oxygen for some lab or industrial use.
[My 1978 BDH Pharmaceutical and Fine Industrial Chemicals catalog lists Cocaine hydrochloride BP at $202.10 for 100 grams, and morphine sulfate for $1450/kg Modern lab suppliers like Fisher are robber barons, unless you have a purchasing contract with them, which can net HUGE discounts.]

Back to MMS (I am reminded by the two ads for it at the top of this page) ...
Arguing that MMS shouldn't be condemned while admitting itis likely ineffective is grossly absurd. It isn't like hanging a horseshoe over the door. It's pretty much impossible to make the case that the horseshoe will do any good, but it is pretty hard to make the case that it will do any harm (issues with fasteners and gravity notwithstanding). Want a horseshoe? Go ahead. MMS can do real harm. It does no good. Don't do it!

Considering that lye has an even higher pH than baking soda, I'm surprised the "alkalize your body" crowd hasn't latched onto lye yet. After all, it's natural: our grannies used it a century ago to make soap.

That can be the second "treatment" I offer at my clinic in Mexico: MMS 2 suppository therapy and lye alkalization purification.

evilDoug:

Lye is used in processing rather a large number of food products (e.g. canned tomatos, hominy).

Lutefisk! Uff da!

(now, if only I can get it to stop turning into goo)

@Sialis - on the Amazon suggestions - we can hope, but these are "affiliate marketers" and not Amazon itself. Not sure if they push too hard on what can be sold on Amazon, except for things that are illegal. Amazon is my favorite department store. If I can't get it within ten miles of my house I go to Amazon. That being said, I can get everything but my photography gear and the really good timothy hay for my son's guinea pig shopping locally and keeping the stores in town in business. Okay and MP3 downloads...

I could have sworn I suggested MMS and MMS2 write-ups ages ago after hubby got sick on the stuff. I'm glad that the current recommended protocols finally made more skeptics aware of Humble and his cures for everything that ails mankind. I found out when googling "MMS Scam" and "MMS danger" when hubby was happily telling me how healthy it was going to make him that it killed a woman in Australia or New Zealand and was believed responsible for many other hospitalizations, etc. (first thing I do with anything hubby tells me something new he has learned about from his alternative friends is google the supplement, etc. with danger and scam after it).

@MJ - I read your blog. It actually seemed to insist that there was no real danger inherent in MMS and that those who are criticizing it are just being alarmists. A defense? To me, yes. If I were to paraphrase and condense your blog I would say "MMS is not harmful, is not abusive, but probably doesn't work. Skeptics are blowing it out of proportion and demonizing it even though it is no more dangerous than prescription medications because they only want people to keep big pharma in business and don't want to heal autistic children."

If it isn't what you intended to say perhaps you can write a second installment?

You know, even if the solution were sugar water, I'd still think these shills are dangerous lunatics. And the parents- ugh. Isn't committing sexual assault on your child one of the definitions of bad parenting? (I believe anal penetration is classed as a sexual assualt- or at least, an assault.)
I'm not a parent, and even I can tell how many degrees of wrong this MMS thing is.
Why the hell can't these parents just leave their kids' asses alone?

Considering that lye has an even higher pH than baking soda, I’m surprised the “alkalize your body” crowd hasn’t latched onto lye yet. After all, it’s natural: our grannies used it a century ago to make soap.

I'm tempted to list other hazardous substances used domestically a century ago, but I guess I shouldn't give the alties any ideas ...

@lilady 21st June

That “Sharon” woman claimed to have her *illustrious* career as a “bookkeeper and whistle blower at HHS” cut short because of damage from a contrast material used during a medical procedure. She’s a proven pathological liar, science illiterate, and an egocentric resident troll. Kelly M. Bray, Autismum and I, have had some great fun poking fun at her and informing her that her brain droppings are off-topic and offensive.

Hey, don't forget about "dyson" would you?
;)

What really gets me is that you can buy MMS, black salve etc. from Amazon.

There seems to be no MMS available from amazon.co.uk nor amazon.co.jp. There are books about it, yes, but no MMS itself. It might be US thing.

Regardless, you can buy even chainsaws from Amazon these days. But even if you can buy it, doesn't mean that applying it either topically or per rectum to your children is good idea. Sigh.

@MJ - seems to ignore the fact that this "treatment" is being forced on children. A treatment with 0% positive benefits, but with 100% negative side-effects that could ultimately lead to the destruction of the child's digestive track....if that's not something to be universally condemned, I don't know what should be.

@Chris

Just say 'NO" to lutefisk.

...and if anyone ever gives you a can of surstrømming, I advise you to watch the following instructional videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRAoSGvmwGA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-bgqR8Gke8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbRIpTUMNi0&feature=related

I'm going to pile on MJ a bit more and note the last paragraph cited by Orac:

So, the side effects of MMS are very similar to those that can happen when using other common treatments. Does that mean giving Aripiprazole to your child when it isn’t clear that there will be benefits “child abuse”? Does the medical profession’s constant overuse of antibiotics qualify as torture?

In this paragraph, MJ seems to ignore that there's rather a large difference between

(1) administering medication in a good-faith effort to resolve symptoms or cure disease, given uncertainty of success and the possibility of error, and

(2) administering harmful nostrums which have no demonstrated therapeutic benefit, however well-intentioned the effort.

I do not think a reasonable person can conclude (1) is child abuse when practiced on children and adolescents; whereas I expect (2) would be child abuse almost any circumstances.

"Considering that lye has an even higher pH than baking soda..."
Back when Orac slapped some insolence on water alkalizers, I calculated how much lye would be required to adjust the pH of water by the same amount as the expensive machines. I don't remember the numbers, but a 25kg bag of food grade sodium hydroxide is pretty cheap and will "treat" a zillion litres of water. And it doesn't just go to 10 or 11 - you can crank it all the way up to 14!
~~~
There are lots of drugs (especially, it seems, among those used for mental illnesses) that are somewhat unpredicable in terms of efficacy and have rather extensive lists of side effects. When these drugs are prescribed and/or adminsistered by responsible physicians, the results are monitored and action taken if the drugs fail to produce the intended results or if the side effects are beyond tolerance.
MMS doesn't have any side effects. There is no useful main effect for anything to be beside. All of the effects are the body's response to a poisonous, corrosive substance. But quacks like Rivera, in her dangerous ignorance, proclaims they are signs the poison is doing its job.

Composer 99,
Also, with real medications side effects are usually a signal to reduce the dose or try a different drug. With MMS side effects are supposed to be a sign it is doing its job (which is damaging the GI tract, not killing pathogens as is falsely claimed)..

evilDoug beat me to it...

@ dingo199

Hey, don’t forget about “dyson” would you?

I actually was referring to the "RI Regulars" who I can identify who post at the Ho-Po.

I often wondered if Dyson is a RI Regular who posts under a different nym' here...it would be nice if that is the case :-)

Wonder no more....

So it's Victim Mom vs Warrior Mom

-btw-
AoA is hawking an ASD-GI study by Walker, Fortunato and KRIGSMAN.

Enjoy. I have other work.

Now, I don’t know about you, but when I think of bleach, this is the stuff that comes to mind.

That's a really strange argument. "Sodium chlorite is not really bleach because my ignorance and assumptions associate that name with one specific product".
Even the manufacturers of Chlorox don't claim that their product is 'THE bleach'. Their advertisements describe it as "the most trusted brand of bleach".

@Politicalguineapig,
I've wondered why quacks are so fascinated with inserting things into the bottoms of autistic children. Frankly, it is abuse and assault.
Trying to do something as simple as getting my son dressed can be a process fraught with physical danger (and that's no exaggeration - he's bloodied my nose more than once and bangs his head on the floor). I can't and don't want to imagine the levels of restraint the children being subjected to this abuse must be put under. Bleach or not (but MMS most definitely is) the risk of serious injury to the child from the method of administration alone is unacceptable.

and if anyone ever gives you a can of surstrømming, I advise you to watch the following instructional videos

The guys in the last one seem to have erred by choosing milk rather than some variety of bäsk.

Please to everyone out there, do not drink sodium chlorite and especially the conversion to chlorine dioxide for any reason. This should make the MMS question immediately moot. (Using credible water purification tablets for purifying water from specifically bacterial endospores is ok)

I have ten years of experience in R&D and delivery of chlorine dioxide into the air and surface for disinfection. Yes, it’s a miracle chemical compound but only for specific uses. There are over 120 years of peer publications that overwhelmingly support the power of Clo2 disinfection with very noticeable under-whelmingly kindredness for internal application. A great website to gather published information for any discussion re: chlorine dioxide is http://www.odorscience.net/Technology.html.

Chlorine Dioxide and Sodium Chlorite are very powerful oxidizers. That’s why they work. There is no educated chemical engineer or chemist that would ever endorse using an oxidizer of this magnitude internally. Yes, it does burn on the way down.

@ Dingo....Thanks

@ Roger Kulp: Oh Yes...it works. Let's see if I can get it past moderation on the Ho-Po...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jess-wilson/autism_b_1607631.html

@Narad

My husband's family decided to try it one day; thankfully they didn't open the can inside the house.

It stank so bad even the dogs left the area. They buried it in the backyard and could still smell it.

@ Denice Walter: Oh Krigsman...again:

http://www.autismgi.com/

NYS has his license registration address as Woodbury, New York...but he practices in another town. Notice he doesn't take any medical insurance...strictly cash up front...let the parents try to get reimbursement.

Oh Krigsman...again:

http://reg.tmb.state.tx.us/OnLineVerif/Phys_ReportVerif.asp?ID_NUM=5118…

I have been following his career t
r
a
j
e
c
t
o
r
y ..for you, Denice.

("trajectory" should have be shown in a downward slope.)

@ Narad...
@ Darwy...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surstr%C3%B6mming

How do you tell the difference between fermentation and botulism...if the can swells?

"It's been banned aboard certain airlines"

autismum @3:51 pm

UGH.You bring back too many ugly memories of childhood enemas,without bleach.Don't forget all the sensory issues around wearing clothes.I hope you let your kid go naked around the house as much as he wants.

Do you know I only stopped head banging a few months ago,after I started on the leucovorin?

Amazon was sent the following information in a chat session, along with the link to the FDA information about MMS. Here is the conversation:

Me:Thank you. Here is the FDA link:
http://www.fda.gov/Safety/MedWatch/SafetyInformation/SafetyAlertsforHum…
Ricky:Thanks for the information.
Can you please help me with the link on the item page on Amazon?
Me:http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B005XRNJ30/ref=dp_olp_new_mbc?ie…
Ricky:Thanks.
Please give me a moment to check on this for you.
Me:Thank you.
Ricky:I am still checking on the best option that I can do. Please give me more time.
Me:Thanks. I'm hoping that the option is to remove the product from Amazon sales.
Ricky:Don't worry. I'll do my best to fixed this.
Me:Thanks.
Ricky:Thanks for waiting.
Me:Actually, MMS is sold by several retailers on Amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/Sodium-Chlorite-Solution-Water-Purification/dp/B0…
Ricky:I've research on this for you. What I can do is to submit a Product Safety to our higher department so this will be removed on our website. We appreciate that you let us know about this.
Me:Please do that. There may be other retailers listed on Amazon that sell the same product. They are using different names: Miracle Mineral Supplement, Water Purification Supplement, etc. Thank you
One second, I'll send you a link to an article in Science.
Ricky:Yes. I have also included the other one on my report. Don't worry, I'll make sure that Amazon will fixed this.
Me:Here is an article about it.
http://www.science20.com/countering_tackling_woo/humbles_miracle_indust…
Thank you.
Ricky:You're most welcome. Thanks too for bringing this to our attention.
Me:Thank you. I appreciate your help.Have a good night.
Ricky:Thanks. You too and take care.

@ lilady

Botulism doesn't cause swelling in cans, foul oders, discoloration or any other signs of spoilages. That's one of the reasons why it's so dangerous.

Back up a second. . .make your own MMS with POOL SHOCK?!? The same stuff you need to don protective gear even to open the package? The same stuff you need to put into water >just so< to keep it from EXPLODING? You're going to put that stuff into your child's body?

I don't think you even need to specify which orifice is being used to introduce this stuff in order for it to qualify as child abuse.

Autismum: Yeeks, my sympathies. I'm glad your son has a kind, understanding mom, and I'm glad that you have a good support system.
My working theory is that suppositories/enemas operate on two levels. The quacks have noticed that suppositories were good enough for ancients, and they believe anything ancient must be good. (Never mind that most people in the ancient world were old by the time they reached thirty.)
The mothers are taking out their percieved humilation on their disabled children- even though the 'refrigerator mum' theory is debunked, a lot of women take it really personally when they produce imperfect children. And unlike the fathers of the children, they don't have the option to walk away, so they subject the children to increasingly dangerous cures in hopes of erasing their 'mistake.' Or, at least, that's my take on it. Again, not a parent, just appalled.

@lilady 6:50 pm

Surstromming + durian, which has been banned from certain hotels and public transportation in Southeast Asia...

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durian

It would probably be safer for bleach loving imbeciles to feed themselves Giardia parasites from a contaminated stream (does a bear $hit in the woods?) than to buy all those chemicals, but that would mean that might have to tear themselves away from their precious blogs/phones for longer than it takes to do the whole enema thing. Yuk.

How do you tell the difference between fermentation and botulism…if the can swells?

Given that they don't even fool around with sterilizing the cans, I suspect this would have detected by now. The fermentation is lactic, so I presume the pH is low enough. And now I really want a copy of these proceedings.

@ Bad Poet: I've heard of durian...what a dreadful combination for a recipe.

There's a cook that appears on TV (her grandfather was a famous Italian movie director); her first name is Giada and her "classic" Italian dishes are so-so. Husband rolls on the floor when I refer to her as Giardia.

@ Narad: I expect that "Chris" will be checking in to provide us with a scrumptious way to prepare the herring...

"In concluding his presentation on the science of fermentation, Mr. McGee quoted Alan Davidson, one of the founders of the Oxford Symposium, who had actually gone to Sweden to observe the opening of the surströmming barrels and the transfer of the partially fermented fish into cans:

As the smell billowed upwards, birds began to drop dead from the sky."

lilady, badpoet: I've had durian chips. Tasted like gasoline with a dash of salt. Also, durians have been known to kill people. Some unlucky person walks under a tree with ripe durians and.. squish. Also, thanks for the thing on surstomming. I'm usually game for anything but I think I'll pass on that.

lilady:

@ Narad: I expect that “Chris” will be checking in to provide us with a scrumptious way to prepare the herring

Lutefisk are cod, not herring! This is exactly how the Internets is not accurate!

Though I do like a tasty un-fermented pickled herring.

Chris...I know the difference between lutefisk and herring...my Scandinavian heritage.

There's nothing better than FRESH cod simmered slowly, drained, topped with butter and fresh dill. I never met a lutefisk that I could *appreciate* :-)

http://www.hymnsandcarolsofchristmas.com/Hymns_and_Carols/o_lutefisk_o_…

My mom used to pickle herring around the holidays; it was a *tradition* to have it first thing into the New Year. I *heard* it was the best pickled herring, but I'm not a raw fish...or raw seafood foodie.

“It’s been banned aboard certain airlines”

On the whole I would feel safer traveling on an airline that had *not* banned Surstromming, because none of the other passengers had ever been tempted to carry some aboard.

herr doktor bimler:

“It’s been banned aboard certain airlines” And, the banning of Surstromming on foreign carriers, has created an international hoo-hah...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4867024.stm

What if the tin leaks, while in checked luggage? Think of the consequences! The pungent smell could corrode the insulation on the miles of wiring within the cargo space! Think of the poor small pets in carriers being transported in the heated section of the cargo space!

There’s nothing better than FRESH cod simmered slowly, drained, topped with butter and fresh dill.

Great, I get complaints about tarragon in tuna casserole, and now this. I cannot begin to express my antipathy toward dill.

Narad: How could you ever make your own gravalox without dill? I make it, but don't eat it. Simple recipe, cured in the fridge, with handfuls of dill weed, gin, some sugar and juniper berries.

You're missing a treat if you don't try a wee bit of dill (fresh or dried) in chicken salad, preferably with freshly made mayonnaise.

I prefer my herrings raw and unpickled.

I make it, but don’t eat it.

Oho! I once was crazy about a woman who endorsed herring but did not endorse me, but that's all I'll say in that regard. No dill.

@Lilady

Nothing could survive the stench in the can, I'm rather confident about that.

I had a friend down in Australia who asked me to send him 'something weird' from Scandinavia for Christmas.

So I sent him a can of Surstrømming in the mail. Just imagine... the can was slightly bulged when I bought it, and then after two weeks in the mail down to Australia....where it's SUMMER.

He said the can was nearly round like a ball when it arrived....

Who knew that fermented fish would be the ultimate red herring? :)

"Great, I get complaints about tarragon in tuna casserole, and now this. I cannot begin to express my antipathy toward dill."

As long as we don't have to hear endless weenie complaints about cilantro, you can diss dill to your heart's content.

@roger my boy swears little but a t-shirt in the house which can get messy so we've made him loose one piece pjs. And on the topic of fish my son lives the smell of fish counters

Notice when the blinking plexiglass box is in sleep mode, how the foodies and weird foodies come out to play? And...all because I posited that Easy-Off Oven Cleaner might be the alties next *treatment/cure* for autism.

Last food comment from me (for a while). Husband treats every holiday as a food foray and found some new food in Umbria, for me to try and duplicate at home. I said "no" to the wild boar, but agreed to try my skills on porchetta...a delectable stuffed pork shoulder.

Sorry to drag y'all back from culinary bliss, but I wanted to report that I've seen at least one altmed post denouncing MMS.

A little internet peer pressure at work?

Oh my! There were several people ( now deceased) in my family who used to rhapsodise endlessy about gravlox and various ( awful) fish in jars. I prefer regular, normal, cooked/ baked salmon myself: none of this ancient Viking fish-burial or such like. I really shouldn't diss the Norske tradition because my own ancestry includes folks who prefer blood as a prime ingredient in cuisine. My Irish friend mentions horrible blood cuisine as well- which her father liked. We both find that abhorrent.

I'm not sure whether the following is Scandinavian or German Jewish but I have seen smoked whole carp (?) that look like giant, gutted goldfish. Not on my list of food preferences either.

@ Anj: I've seen several altmed posts that condemn MMS.

I'd like to think that some of them have a conscience, but I think the likely reason is because they don't stock and sell bleach for autism *treatment/cures*. They have *far more effective autism *treatments/cures*...as contained in their new books...and available for purchase on their websites.

@ Denice Walter: I believe "sable" is the Jewish colloquial name for smoked carp...not to be confused with a sable fish...a completely different species of fish:

http://server1.stripersonline.com/t/526565/cold-smoked-fish

Nothing wrong with gravad lax. My mouth starts watering, thinking of it.

As long as we don’t have to hear endless weenie complaints about cilantro, you can diss dill to your heart’s content.

Implying that Julia Child was a "weenie" could be taken as fighting words in certain quarters. (I actually had the "who put soap in this?" reaction the first few times as a lad, but it just went away. The genetic angle I'm not so sure about, but I do think this may be going on with wormwood; at a gathering a year ago involving an hour of free Jeppson's Malört, two out of about 40, myself included, detected nothing objectionable whatever in the flavor.)

Amazon.com: where all the sodium hydroxide- Roto-Rooter/Liquid Plumr type drain-cleaning products Illinois residents used to be able to get at the hardware store went to be repurposed as alt-med cure-alls and enemas.

@ Feddlefew: The presence of Botulism, in rare cases, may cause commercially-packed food cans to swell...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botulism

More commonly, cases of food-borne botulism are caused by improperly home-canned foods and by amateur cooks who chop and store garlic in oil.

You can also buy black salve and Hulda Clark's zappers on Amazon.com:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-k…

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-k…

It seems as if MJ's blog has been taken down. Either that or it's not available due to maintenance. I'll keep checking periodically, since I doubt we'll ever hear from her again here.

Ignore my post above. The blog is back up. I thought maybe for a second MJ had an attack of conscience or common sense and pulled the blog herself. Must have been a temporary glitch.

MJ's "retort" to me is hilarious:

http://autismjabberwocky.blogspot.com/2012/06/smear-blogging.html

I don't know if I'll bother with it or not; it's just too silly and whiny. On the other hand, it might be worth a brief analysis.

@Lilady

Wild boar isn't so bad as long as you remember to brine it. The MIL bought a haunch once and presented it to me one Sunday afternoon because she wasn't sure how to cook it but figured I could do something with it - in 3 hours.

The first idea I had for it wasn't very nice and I won't mention it here...

@Orac it's definitely a whinefest over there. At least he's admitted he's chemically inept.

Thanks Orac! MJ's little smear post just sent another irony meter up in smoke.

@ Darwy OMG...I hope you didn't try to roast the wild boar. It's "best" when prepared as cianghiale (cut in small pieces, simmered for a long time with a spicy sauce).

I posted that MJ referred to my post at him, "honorable mention", I presume...lost in the moderation hopper. MJ's as thick as a plank and is pleading for help to figure out the chemistry of the MMS bleach.

When I clicked orac's link to read the "retort"

Fraudulent Web Page Blocked

You attempted to access:
http://autismjabberwocky.blogspot.com/2012/06/smear-blogging.html

This web page is a known fraudulent web page. It is recommended that you do NOT visit this page.

For your protection, this web page has been blocked. Visit Symantec to learn more about phishing and internet security.

Please pass the gravad lox, smoked salmon, nova lox, smoked trout, smoked sturgeon, a couple of untoasted everything bagels, some cream cheese, some sliced tomatoes and some chopped onions...

This web page is a known fraudulent web page. It is recommended that you do NOT visit this page.

Offhand, I'd guess Symantic is barfing on the JavaScript 'div-3az01wmo7lmj'. It's not in the usual place for an injection.

From MJ’s new post

Another explained to me that because I was having saying inappropriate things about MMS that I am one of its defenders. And another one counted the number of words I wrote and decided that I spent too many words saying the wrong about MMS thing therefore I had to be defending it. That was right before he said that I was "sampling the wares".

Either MJ can’t keep different commenters straight, or MJ has some serious reading comprehension difficulties. I’m the one who did the word count, and I never said anything about “sampling the wares.” And I’d really like to know why MJ thinks someone whose nym incorporates the word “mom” is a “he.”

Yah, I'm just not seeing anything suspicious here upon a bit of further review.

Dangerous Bacon:

As long as we don’t have to hear endless weenie complaints about cilantro, you can diss dill to your heart’s content.

It tastes like soap. But I am a supertaster, something I learned after sampling a piece of test paper that caused me to rinse my mouth several times that evening.

I like dill, I hate tarragon, but that is because I do not like licorice flavors. I also like Australian musk sticks, which oddly enough remind me of bubble gum and not toiletry products. Go figure.

Today I went on an edible garden tour in a neighborhood with a Scandinavian past. So I had lunch at a Scandinavian specialties store (cured salmon open sandwich).

That store sells lutefisk and pickled herring, but I could not find the surstrømming. They sponsor the lutefisk eating contest at that neighborhood's annual summer festival.

on the topic of surstromming, I had no idea as to it's existence until this week. An aussie comedy show which features a comedy duo exploring Europe (among other things) did a segments on it. I looked up the wiki entry and we had a good laugh at some of the stories on their.

But, if anyone's interested in how a first experience of it might go: http://www.hamishandandy.com/2012/whats-that-smell/

I love what happens when in a comment conversation on things not to feed kids, that just mentioning lutefisk would bring on a fun thread hijack!

I like dill, I hate tarragon, but that is because I do not like licorice flavors.

Hmph. I detest licorice (anethole) but delight in tarragon (estragole; also in basil).

(And this all kind of rolls back to Shulgin's ten essential amphetamines.)

One funny answer on MJ's blog by Minority:

"Go against the dogma. Get smeared.

These are the same people who are totally cool with millions of children being dosed with thimerosal in vaccines in the developing world. THAT is not child abuse."

Someone didn't get they idea that poison is in the doses.

If you are defending administering bleach to children, you defenitly shouldn't complain about miniscule amounts of thimerosal in vaccins.

I followed to the link to MJ's follow up piece, but didn't get the Symantec warning. I couldn't comment either, even though there was no indication that comments were closed.

...just over a AOA and they are talking about all the amazing RESEARCH you can do on the internet...

There's just one problem. There really isn't that much actual research done. Studies are expensive. Even the best constructed studies only give a limited amount of new data/information/knowledge.

What the internet does give us is a whole LOTTA soap boxes for people to stand up on and TELL THE WORLD that this study and that study and this other study totally, absolutely and unequivocally supports hundreds of contradictory theories. And products.

I'm all for research. The real deal, not flim flam artists pushing their various wares under the name of "research".

@ Anj: Oh, do you mean this article at AoA?...

http://www.ageofautism.com/2012/06/look-it-up-1.html

"I know that some people don’t appreciate what’s available on the internet to an autism parent, nor do they want those parents anywhere near it. Those answers, that research, these numbers, that cover up. What a parent finds online is likened to a national secret. Looking up their child’s signs, symptoms, diseases or potential diagnoses is just not okay. The internet is not a viable source and its use should never be allowed by parents, especially autism parents. Heaven forbid they stumble across something beneficial for their child! And, they better not think that they can share that information with anyone, especially with the doctor they’ve hired to help them."

Now we are being *accused* of not wanting parents to look up things on the internet...project much, maybe?

@Orac,

if you really are determined to pick a fight and get into a pissing contest then so be it.

@Chemmomo,

Because the first comment that I saw that included the word count when I was reading was by Thomas. Since I couldn't find any other comment with the text that has was quoting I assumed the quotes around the sentence were there accidentally.

Your original comment didn't appear for me until later. If you would like me to properly attribute the novel word count analysis to you, I would be more than willing to do so.

And gender confusion seems to be common around here, there are people who are calling me "her".

@Mimi, Narad,

There is nothing fraudulent that symantec would be flagging on the site nor is there anything but the standard blogger components. The dynamically generated div that you are referring to are being created by one of two components.

If you really are getting a warning then you probably would see the same warning on other blogger sites as well. You might also have something on your machine that is changing the page as it is loaded, so it might be time to scan your machine and/or to update symantec.

@Darwy, actually I said in the original piece that my chemistry was a little weak, so there is no "admission". Although "weak" is really a relative term - unlike present company, I don't pretend to be an expert on everything. If I am unsure then I say so.

@ MJ: I just left another *message* for you, on your blog:

liladyJune 24, 2012 9:26 AM

"You are certainly free to find my alleged ignorance offensive....."

I found your obvious ignorance of chemistry with your first article offensive MJ...and it was not an "alleged ignorance"...as you yourself readily admit...

"But since I do care about accuracy, I will correct one potential mistake that I made in the last post. The dose of chlorine dioxide in a single, uhm, serving of MMS might be higher than I thought it was. I said that I though it was around 1 ppm and I based that on comments that I read around the internet. According to Gorki, that dose is like 80 ppm and while I think that figure is probably wrong (anyone with a good knowledge of chemistry want to chime in?), I also think my figure is an under estimation."

Too bad, in response to your pathetic plea "anyone with a good knowledge of chemistry want to chime in?", some posters have tried to explain some basic chemistry to you. Now do you *get it*?

You chose to call my concern for your inaccuracies and support of quackery and child abusers "toadyism"...I call it advocacy on behalf of defenseless developmentally disabled children whose credulous parents, like you MJ, are clueless about the inherent dangers of forcing an industrial bleach into their children's mouths and rectums.

You're just digging yourself in deeper MJ."

MJ, nice whinge.

@ Thinking Moms' Revolution:

Yesterday's guest writer, David's Daddy, writes of his experiences with autism as his child grows; in the comments section, he mentions that he has just learned of a new way to combat the 'bugs': MMS.

Today's entry speaks about Candida.

These people are on a parasite hunt now that the toxin-hunt has been ( partially) called off.

Their furiously desperate searches for offending chemicals/ parasites and magickal cures/ doctors are merely exercises in distraction to MAKE THEMSELVES FEEL BETTER.

if you really are determined to pick a fight and get into a pissing contest then so be it.

Hmmm. All I did was to criticize your obvious mistakes, ignorance, and tone trolling once and then to mention that I thought your followup post was pure whining. Hardly a fight. Of course, given your science knowledge it's obvious to me that you'd be bringing the proverbial knife to a gun fight.

@mj

Read your blog "article". Had a good laugh at your poor argument skills, plentiful use of ad hominem, and utter lack of actual science.

If you were looking for unintentional comedy, you hit a gold mine. But if your looking to make a cogent argument, much less trying to pick a fight, you've really set yourself up for humiliation.

I've just replied again, to MJ, on his blog. He accused me of toadyism, once again.

He's been given my final advice and invited to come to RI, if he wishes to engage me in a "pissing contest".

MJ is really not worth listening to. Last year, we got in a scrap on Left Brain Right Brain. S/He claimed that when I self advocate, I belittle and dismiss the voice of his/her children. I went ballistic and eventually took the fight over to my blogs. S/He is not prepared to admit when s/he is wrong about something.

MJ is STILL defending MMS in the replies to the comments, both on the original posting and the reply to Orac. The crux of it lies with his belief that if parents "mean well" it's not abuse. All we need to do is simply, calmly and quietly say "hey, that's not right. You might possibly maybe consider stopping that behaviour." And then the MMS parent would pause, say "you know, you're right. Thank you for informing me about the possible harm I might be doing. I'll stop immediately."

I knew a woman whose ex-husband used to beat her because he thought he was "helping" make her into a better person (it's twisted but common in domestic abuse cases). He meant well, in his warped mind, so according to MJ that would not be considered abuse. It's all about the intent.

Chemmomo: Sorry about the confusion that resulted when I quoted you. I was simply noting that your metaphorical use of the word "regurgitation" coincided with a real side-effect of being poisoned with MMS. I did not expect anyone to take that as an accusation - but then again, two weeks ago, I wouldn't have expected to find that anyone was experimenting on children with industrial bleach, so I guess I was wrong twice over.

The crux of it lies with his belief that if parents “mean well” it’s not abuse

Can't even begin to list what's wrong with that statement, but I'll toss out the old "spare the rod and spoil the child" tripe just for starters.

Shay,

Here's one direct quote from MJ:

Yes, these parents may be doing something less than desirable to their child but I really doubt there is a malicious intent there. If anything, most of the people who are using this stuff are trying to help, however misguided their efforts might be. They certainly don't deserve people shouting to the world that they are child abusers.

A more measured and reasonable, hey, that isn't a good idea would have been a better response.

That approach reminds me of this clip from Family Guy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s66vQhar5AI

Because all we need to say to people who are going to great lengths to obtain and administer something they have to conceal because it's so wacky iand illegal is "hey, stop it."

In another reply to a commenter MJ asked what is so degrading about giving MMS to a child. He also downplays the difficulty of restraining an austitic child in order to get the catheter and bleach up there in the first place, not to mention the agony afterwards.

That was me. I've replied that the repeated enemas are degrading and that restraining a child to administer them is an horrendous imposition of a parent's will.
It gets my goat that people assume just because I don't have my child in a permanent head lock and do, genuinely, love his company and see him as (for want of a better word) a blessing then I can't possibly have had any of the challenges or he must be high functioning/have Asperger's.
Restraining a child should only ever be used as a last resort and when we've had to fully restrain our little Pwdin it's broken my heart to do so every time (always for his safety).

@lilady,

Yup, that's the one. Of course, on any alt med site that sells anything at all, the list of symptoms is so long that it covers anything from gastric reflux to ovarian cancer. You can look up one symptom, find one hundred possible diagnoses and two hundred products claiming to treat either the symptom or illness.

One stop "research" - diagnosis, treatment and sales all in one place. Often they have forums, support groups and links to sites which agree with the central dogma.

That some alt-medders have objected is not surprising, nor does it indicate that they might actually have a conscience. No, the problem is that if this whole "it's caued by parasites" crap is right, then the "it's the vaccines" folks are wrong. And we couldn't have that.

anti-vaxxers have way too much invested to concede it is due to worms

There is nothing fraudulent that symantec would be flagging on the site nor is there anything but the standard blogger components. The dynamically generated div that you are referring to are being created by one of two components.

Yah, I figured that out. Nonetheless, I assume that the report that Symantec was flagging something was accurate. It's not software I would use were I to be using a Windows box, so I'm not really familiar with how often it might produce false positives.

@ Pablo ( a/k/a MMM):

Perhaps Blax-sted or some other blasted anti-vax theoretician will link the toxins ( or is it the malevolent vapours?) in vaccines to providing the fertile miasmic ground for the spontaneous generation of parasites.

Why not, their style often seems pre-scientific?

Well I'm back online now and not surprised at all that MJ has not come over to RI to engage us in a *pissing contest*. That's the nature of these hit and run crank bloggers.

@ Julian Frost he/she is a *he*...from MJ's blog..

About me
Gender Male
Location United States
Introduction I am the father of three beautiful daughters who unfortunately have to struggle with autism.

Marc Stephens Is Insane

The crux of it lies with his belief that if parents “mean well” it’s not abuse.

... He meant well, in his warped mind, so according to MJ that would not be considered abuse. It’s all about the intent.

That was the angle in MJ's apologetic rant that really got my goat.

Please note that I'm in no way comparing the abuse committed by child rapists to those dosing their kids with MMS, but dedicated paedophiles, namely NAMBLA, employ similar rhetoric. Their twisted attempts at defence claim that they love the children they rape and therefore to these sick minds the atrocities they commit should not be considered paedophilia or child abuse.

MJ has in two consecutive articles, been so off-base on MMS. His *claim* about the rhetoric associated with bleaching kids with industrial strength chemicals...is just *tone blogging*...at its worst.

His second article was even worse than the first...because he played semantics with his words, because of his colossal ego.

Odd, isn't it, that he blogs under "Jabberwocky" about autism?

Orac to MJ:
"Of course, given your science knowledge it’s obvious to me that you’d be bringing the proverbial knife to a gun fight."
It sounds more like going into a battle of wits half-armed.

MJ is just a walking pile of failure.

I'm so sick of abuse apologists (and others) saying (They mean well, their intent was good". Intent is not foxing magic. If I run someone over with a car, killing them in the process, I can't shout "It was. an accident!", and bring them back to life.

Also, the enema thing is making me feel sicker by the day. I'm in my thirties, and have nerve damage in my gut. Sometimes an enema is needed, so that I don't end up in hospital.

I feel violated and traumatised when it's administered to me. I cry, I shake, the abdominal pain is awful. it can take weeks for my distress to resolve.

I'm not an autistic child, being. held down by my mam, and flushed out with bleach. There's a saying, "'Mother' is the name for God, on the lips and hearts of all children"

I've been an abused child, it still affects me, but I can work through it now, express myself. What's an autistic child, especially a seriously affected non-verbal one, supposed to do to counteract their physical and emotional world? If every experience they rate is facilitated through their mother, their abuser, how are they to deal with the betrayal and violation, who can they tell?

I look at kids like Autismum's little Pwd, and wonder how someone could take a child like him, and do such an awful thing. He's a lucky little lad, others... not. so much.

Marc Stephens Is Insane:

MJ is STILL defending MMS in the replies to the comments, both on the original posting and the reply to Orac. The crux of it lies with his belief that if parents “mean well” it’s not abuse. All we need to do is simply, calmly and quietly say “hey, that’s not right. You might possibly maybe consider stopping that behaviour.” And then the MMS parent would pause, say “you know, you’re right. Thank you for informing me about the possible harm I might be doing. I’ll stop immediately.”

Your subsequent example about domestic abuse done out of good intentions is spot on the money. Yes, these parents probably do mean well, and probably do love their children. That's the horror of it, and also why doctors aren't supposed to treat their own children -- love, among other things, makes you lose your sense of perspective. In many ways, that's a very good thing. But we must be ever vigilant for when it's a bad thing. Love can be especially dangerous when it is combined with pride; our zeal to help someone we love combined with a prideful belief that we *must* be able to help them and that we *cannot* be wrong about the means is a recipe for disaster.

The ends don't justify the means, and certainly the intent doesn't justify the means or the end, apart from very narrow cases like killing a person to save your own life (and even then it isn't always as clear as we might wish, as the Trayvon Martin case demonstrates).

With homeopathy, in most cases, I think we can be gentle. It generally isn't harmful (Zicam aside) and most people using it are not seriously ill in the first place; the main damage is to the wallet. (Although that damage can become considerable; there are people who have spent their life savings chasing will-o-the-wisps in this manner, and then suffered terribly as they were left destitute.) But MMS is not like homeopathy. It causes considerable harm. It is, frankly, a miracle that there has not yet been a death, as there has been with chelation. (And yet chelation is still used to treat autism! It has killed children, yet it is still done!)

So we cannot afford to stay silent, or to be wishy-washy. We can be respectful of the humanity of other parents, and we can appeal to their obvious love for their children. But we must stand up for what is right.

And I hope that every parent who uses MMS and also every parent who performs home colonic irrigation (another fad remedy for pretty much everything) would read elburto's post above. They need to understand just what it is they are subjecting their children to.

Parents who may be reading this, and considering MMS: you deserve to have all of the facts, and your children deserve to have you make an informed decision based on them. There is no evidence MMS will help. But it will definitely hurt. Not maybe hurt. Definitely hurt. It has a good chance of maiming your child internally, damaging the digestive tract, stripping away the front line of the immune system and compromising its ability to absorb nutrients properly. And it is causing your child considerable pain. That part isn't a maybe; it's a definite. This stuff is highly reactive. Never mind where you get it from, whether it's Pool Shock or another product; basic chemistry tells us it's gonna hurt and hurt bad. Weigh that definite harm against the absence of evidence that it will help, put your pride aside for a moment, and look at what is best for your child. Is he/she better off autistic and in pain, or autistic and happy? Because that's really what it comes down to.

And if you're actually worried about parasites, there are much better treatments for those; see a doctor, get the specific organism identified, and get a tailored treatment. Not this bludgeon that wouldn't even cure a genuine infestation. (Seriously. There are parasites that will weather this just fine, because you're attacking the wrong part of the lifecycle.)

Go back to Orac's link to Jabberwocky's original article, to see that MJ is back-tracking...only about the chemistry of MMS:

EDITED TO ADD : Ignore the crossed out text above, it is wrong. The bottom line is that even using a single drop of MMS is a standard sized glass is a little over six times stronger than pool water - roughly 32ppm. And it gets worse the more drops that you use at a time or if you take it multiple times per day. See this discussion for more details.

MJ is still defending parents, like himself, who seek to *recovery* their child. Read his other articles where he describes using Curcumin supplements to *recover* his children. He's firmly in the autism pseudoscience camp and firmly an enabler who defends parents willing to *try anything* to *recover* their child(ren) from autism.

What would really bring this home is an endorsement by Yazbak and Buttram, two guys who defended a man who shook his girlfriend's baby to death. Child abuse seems to be a common theme with these folks, like when Roy Kerry strapped a kid to a table to force IV chelation.

But Chris...it's not child abuse, if the treatment is an *effort* to *recover* a child from autism (sarcasm/snort).

"Child abuse seems to be a common theme with these folks, like when Roy Kerry strapped a kid to a table to force IV chelation.

For clarity (and for all the times Chris provided *links* for my posts)

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2006/08/23/one-year-later-the-autopsy…

Why Kerry didn't get the book thrown at him, I'll never understand. Bad enough that quacks get to continue practicing, but after a death?

Yes, these parents probably do mean well, and probably do love their children.

"Yet each man kills the thing he loves" was NOT A RECOMMENDATION.

Nor is John Maynard Keynes' statement "In the long run, we are all dead."

As for Mr "Who put the durian in my surstromming?" Up there, some of the real chemists here ought to dear about making supplements using some of the stinky stuff at Dr Derek Lowe's blog "In the Pipeline", under "Things I Won't Work With". The last post is about selenophenol, which should make alt-woo addicts noticeable by their stench. Now, it's up to us to get "sttp" into IP - as in stinky text transport protocol.

"Yes, these parents probably do mean well, and probably do love their children."

The bastards that shake an infant, so that the baby's brain herniates "mean well and probably do love their children".

@lilady 6:24 pm

Until they get in front of the tv news cameras and turn on the floodgates, moaning and wailing fit to raise the zombies, "b..b..but I loves my chilluns, I'll do anything"...to win the ghetto lottery/stay out of jail/protect the drug or slum lord who's paying them to stay quiet.
At least, that's the way it is here in Chicago.See the "Tiffany Rent" case. If we're lucky, the judge will throw it out and DCFS will give custody of all the kids to t the grandmother. If not, we taxpayers and the police officer are going to be paying the bill for the flamin hots and grape pop for a long time.

@ bad poet: Do you mean this case?

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/13173512-418/story.html

I don't think that the incident and the interaction between Tiffany Rent and the police officer, warranted tasing.

I also think you should reread how you used stereotypical language for your post.

Yes, lilady, they probably do. That's part of what makes it especially horrifying.

I really want people to understand that part. So many people wonder how someone could stay with an abuser; it's because we have this notion in our heads that if he loves me, he can't be hurting me. It isn't true. Love is a wonderful thing, but it doesn't actually conquer all. The hospital where I had my two babies participated in a study, the results of which led them to require all parents watch a video on shaken baby syndrome. The study had found that devotion and love was no indicator of whether or not a parent would shake a child badly enough to injure or even kill. Most of the time, the people who did it were ignorant of two crucial things: 1) how much damage shaking can do and 2) that sooner or later, you will get angry with your child, and you need to be prepared for that so you can stop yourself doing something horrible. Too many parents go into it with a fairy tale mentality. They think "I will love this child, and that will make it all right". After two weeks of sleep deprivation and one too many spit-ups down their shirts, they are suddenly faced with the reality that parenting takes a lot more than love. It takes *work*, and it will not always be sunshine and butterflies.

Note: I'm not saying they mean well when they shake their children; people do that because they're angry. They mean harm. (They probably aren't thinking about the magnitude of the harm that will be inflicted, but they certainly aren't trying to be nice.) I'm saying that their love has failed to stop them doing this horrible thing.

The people who use MMS on their children, the people who try prayer instead of antibiotics, the people who choose herbs over chemo for their child's leukemia, the people who try to treat AIDS with homeopathy . . . . They do mean well. The results in these cases can never be good, though. Meaning well is a totally different thing than doing well. Personally, I think it falls under the heading of medical neglect (though perhaps a stronger term, medical abuse, should be adopted), which is a subset of child abuse.

@ Calli Arcale: The term "Medical Abuse" is often used in lieu of Munchausen-By-Proxy Syndrome, when abusing parents (usually mothers), lie about and/or induce symptoms that prompt physicians to order multiple (sometimes invasive and painful) medical tests and to hospitalize a child. Such parents seek the attention of doctors and nurses, often are very well self-educated in diseases and disorders and the common symptoms associated with the diseases/disorders and how to lie about/evoke those symptoms. Their goal is have the child be hospitalized.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/119/5/1026.full.pdf

Yet, these parents who dose their children with MMS, do not fit those criteria. MMS is an OTC purchase and it is an industrial bleach. The parents abuse their kids behind closed doors and they actually avoid taking their child to a medical doctor.

IMO, they are no different than the stranger/child abuser who grabs a child off the street and who *gets off* by hurting a child.

I would be very careful about assumptions that MMS-inflicting parents have Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy or any other known disorder which results in similar behavior. The results may be strikingly similar but the motivations are not at all similar.

Those who have Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy are gripped by a desperate need for attention. How desperate? Well, we can assume it's comparable to those who suffer Munchausen Syndrome who deliberately inflict painful and sometimes lethal suffering on themselves in order to draw that attention: pretty desperate. Their strategy for getting that attention is to manufacture health crises for their children or other dependents and then present themselves as the noble, brave soul who soldiers on despite more suffering than anyone should have to bear.

For these (thankfully rare) parents, it would be a disaster for them if MMS was a miracle cure. They don't want a miracle cure; they want to be the martyr applauded for bearing up bravely under the strain. They have very little to do with the parents who want so desperately for MMS to be a miracle cure, they ignore the fact that it's freakin' bleach.

In order to stop these parents from doing the awful things they're doing to their children, we need to understand why they're doing them. Lumping them together with parents who do some outwardly similar things, but out of motives that couldn't be more different, won't help us.

(Google is wonderful) I remember this case because of the praise heaped upon the MSBP mother, Kathy Bush...she set herself up as the "public face" representing moms who *lovingly* care for their children who have complicated medical conditions...

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-18559_162-68882.html

Here too, is an update on how the child is doing...and how she wants some limited contact with her mother. See how Kathy Bush's husband has *enabled* his abusing wife, in spite of the overwhelming evidence about her abuse. Poor kid...she is the victim here and remains the victim.

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/07/22/State/_Munchausen__victim_m.shtml

@ Antaeus Feldspar
I would agree that this is MSBP but that parents inflicting MMS upon their disabled children certainly have features in common with the Munchausen's sufferers. I see this as a kind of Morgellon's by proxy as I think another commentator here suggested. These parents truly *believe* what they're seeing are worms coming out of their kids and that their "symptoms" i.e. autistic characteristics, are those of infestation. It is delusional parasitosis by proxy. Moreover, I see this protocol in similar terms to chelation or anti-fungals in that parents are, essentially, trying to purge their children of autism. I also see the obsession with bowl movements and enemas as somewhat fetishistic.

In other, utterly depressing news, related to this and the pathetic "Chalkboard talk"
https://www.facebook.com/RegardingCaroline/posts/440062246012355

Bad Poet: Um seriously? Most of the autism parents that are way down the rabbit hole are white. So please dial down the Klannish rhetoric. You're too intelligent to be racist.

If "medical abuse" is already a real term used to describe Munchausen's Syndrome by Proxy, then I agree it should not be applied in these cases. It would be misleading. These are people who do not intend to hurt their children; they are oblivious to the harm they are in fact causing, but this makes them a different case to tackle than those who intentionally lie and obfuscate. It's more like hypochondria by proxy. With Munchausen's, I think they have to know they're not really sick in order to qualify. I think these parents (like Morgellon's sufferers) genuinely believe the "parasites" are real. It doesn't help a whit that they've had this interpretation planted ahead of time by the charlatans.

Still, my basic point stands that it should be actionable from a CPS standpoint. I wouldn't get CPS involved if a person was using homeopathy to treat autism (as long as they're not also using it to treat, for instance, cancer) but this is pretty serious damage being done with MMS. It seems it might be worth the risk to the parent-child relationship. (Because never forget that a child does suffer when their parent is taken away, even if the parent is abusive, sometimes even if the parent is severely abusive. Children bond to their parents instinctively. Never mind the travesty that is "attachment disorder." You have to balance that hurt against the hurts they suffer if they stay and see which option is less bad.)

I still cannot wrap my brain around the repeated assaults on children who are dosed with MMS by their parent(s).

I try to understand their thinking processes and will agree that they want to *recover* their children from autism...they even brag about their children *losing their ASD diagnoses*.

So, in my mind I could *picture* a parent who is steeped in the belief of vaccine injuries, whose only use for the internet is to get information from anti-vaccine sites and health supplement sites that sell crap like MMS. The parent then purchases the MMS, follows the protocol...titrating the oral and enema doses upward...until the desired *effects* (vomiting, diarrhea), are achieved.

The parents have to restrain the child (just like when a doctor draws blood or when an IV is started). The child then starts gagging and vomits..and vomits, some more. The child's profuse bowel movements become watery acidic stool with frank blood and the child is screaming in pain. This, IMO, is the time when any loving parent with any grasp on reality, would stop these *treatments*...to do some real research on the internet about MMS bleach....but they don't.

Have you seen this top banner ad on the AoA website?

http://www.cellmedicine.com/

They have their executive offices in the United States, offer seminars and make arrangements for stem cell therapy to be done in Panama. These wackos will stop at nothing to *recover* their children from autism.

I think that summarizes it, lilady. Especially your sentence "This, IMO, is the time when any loving parent with any grasp on reality, would stop these *treatments*…" They clearly have no grasp on reality. I don't think these people can be dissuaded. We can try to reach the people who are considering MMS, or who have just started, but the ones this far down the rabbit hole have warped reality to such a degree that anything they see is interpreted in terms of how it can confirm their expectations. A call to CPS seems to be the only option in those cases, because I do worry about what will happen to these kids.

Unfortunately *treatment* of imaginary parasites ("bugs") is not a rare event for these whacky mothers who are trying to *recover* their children from autism. From the TMR website, a blogger associates her child's worsening of symptoms with the lunar cycle..."when the bugs get active"

http://thinkingmomsrevolution.com/bugs-moon-cycles-and-lunacy/#comments

See the six comments from moms who are *treating* their kids for parasitic infestations, including this *gem*:

Mama Wolverine says:
June 28, 2012 at 9:38 am

Years ago, seeking help from a pediatic infectious disease specialist at a childrens hospital, I was laughed out of her office for suggesting a parasite/gut/moon connection. I had explained to her that my child with autism became different when there was a full moon. When I explained to her that I had found information that parasites become active during the full moon cycle, she looked at me like I was a crazy loon. I’ve been dealing with this now, on my own, for the past couple of years because no one would believe me and I became afraid that someone would try to take my child away from me if I brought it up any further.

Why is *Mama Wolverine* doing *treatments* behind closed doors?

What type of *treatment* is she doing, for several years, that makes her afraid that she will have her child taken from her?

Wow--I read a few comments here and couldn't help but posting. This is sad to see. Most of you posting are the type that would rather be cut into by a "doctor" than say, go to a chiropractor, or take a natural herb that can solve your problem without the horrible side-effects of today's "advanced, scientific" drugs.

After learning at at early age that most M.D.s do not truly understand the human body, I found alternative medicine, and my life has been better ever since--and the same applies to others I know who have done the same.

Remember when doctors used to call other doctors who insisted on the washing of hands before delivering a baby to be crazy quacks who were out of touch with "science?" Many of today's medical doctors are no better, and it astounds me that so many well-educated people just can't see it--or at least, for whatever reason, they won't allow themselves to.

Passerby,

What does any of your nonsense have to do with feeding autistic kids BLEACH? And what does it have to do with administering bleach enemas to austistic kids?

What's sad to see is uninformed, ignorant people supporting child abuse. Take all the MMS you want, but stay away from any kids.

Chiropactors are quacks. Some herbal medicine does work, but then it just becomes medicine. See aspirin.

Wow–I read a few comments here and couldn’t help but posting. This is sad to see. Most of you posting are the type that would rather be cut into by a “doctor” than say, go to a chiropractor, or take a natural herb that can solve your problem without the horrible side-effects of today’s “advanced, scientific” drugs.

It's called being reality-based. Yes, we would rather go with real medicine than with chiropractors and herbalists who promise the moon but can't actually deliver on those promises.

And if you think MMS is a natural herb with no side effects, it goes without saying that you're a nutjob.

"After learning at an early age that most M.D.s do not truly understand the human body"

I'll take my chances with someone who has actually studied medicine any day. Not to belabor the analogy, but why would I take my car to a wheelwright for a tune-up?

Remember when doctors used to call other doctors who insisted on the washing of hands before delivering a baby to be crazy quacks who were out of touch with “science?

Ah, the Ignaz Semmelweis defense. It was a long time. Anyone has a Bingo card?

Funny enough, the acceptance of his hygienic methods went faster once he managed to publish his results.

Why, yes, passerby @8:37 am 1 July, I’d rather be “cut into by a “doctor”” than have my spine messed with by a chiropractor whose business model seems to be talk the patient into paying for as many visits as possible while pretending to cure me, or ingesting a mixture of compounds with unknown effects and unknown potency.

This is the 21st century: herbs are for flavoring food.

Oh, and if you are ingesting the herb because you’re trying to treat the symptoms of something that ails you – guess what? That makes it a drug. By definition.

"Remember when doctors used to call other doctors who insisted on the washing of hands before delivering a baby to be crazy quacks who were out of touch with “science?” "

Yes. They were proven wrong by data - just like the current idiots who are trying to use bleach as "medicine" have been.

It's ironic that Semmelweis used "bleach" (no not Clorox, MJ) to wash his hands. I'm surprised the MMS gang hasn't latched onto that yet...

Where ever you go, I'll stick to...Congrats!!!!

Wow - some thread. Orac, I much enjoy your insolence but I often find the comment threads too horrifying to read. There are a lot of good commenters but the bizarre fauna of deluded rubes that are attracted to come here are sometimes just too much to endure. This one is right up there but read every comment up to 3:27 pm. It boggles the mind that actual adults, parents, supposedly functional to the extent that they can reproduce, hold down jobs and so on can be so utterly clueless as to think bleach in any form or concentration should be ingested by or injected into children.

Saddly, I have to wonder if your diligent deconstructions of the weapons grade stupid really has much effect considering the legions of apparently devoid of scruples people who rush to exploit the gullible. I also wonder why more of your colleagues are not engaging in this battle in a meaningful way? Is it not in some sense a duty of their profession?

You and your sane commenters provide an invaluable service, I hope you can keep it up for another couple of decades and that others will follow your lead. Thank you all for your selfless dedication to reason and reality.

We aims to please.

Some of us are commenting about MMS on other science blogs....like I am doing right now.

I don't know where you are posting from, but feel free to link to this blog....it could serve to get the word out there about this terrible abusive practice.

"Most of you posting are the type that would rather [elect to recieve treatments objectively shown to be effective, which possess well characterized safety profiles,] than [rely on treatments either not shown to be safe and effective, or which actually are known to be neither safe nor effective]."

Fixed that for you.

Denice Walter & lilady - Thanks for the acknowledgements. I always feel I should take not when acknowledged even if I am just tossing in an atta/girl comment because I have no relevant knowledge of the topics.

I have and will continue to link to this blog whenever and wherever on the net the context is appropriate. I have told all my friends and associates about it and urged them to take a look and pay attention. I will continue to do that as well, I just sent an email with the link to the supplements post to several friends whom I know use them.

I am actually located in Brazil (here it is spelt Brasil) and though I have few internet correspondents I have shown more than a few people RI to raise their awareness about SBM in general and vaccine issues in particular.

I'm a geologist so I don't have much to say on these subjects though I have personal experience with a long list of exotic maladies, parasites etc. However, I like to think I know good scientific opinion when I see it, it isn't actually all that hard to recognize.

Thanks for being here.

SB - take note when...

In the UK, by and large, the description of 'Fabricated and Induced Illness' has now replaced diagnostic labels aimed at the abusive parent. The idea is that labels like 'Munchausens by Proxy' imply the parent is suffering from a mental illness which diminishes their culpability - apparently the term was originally coined to describe a pattern of abuse rather than a psychiatric illness (I heard this at a recent child protection training conference, so it might not be correct).
'Fabricated & Induced Illness' switches the focus back to the child.
I would tend to agree with those approach - there doesn't seem to be much evidence that parents are suffering from mental illness and the prognosis is bleak - so I think MBP is best though of as a pattern/type of abuse and attempt at explaining the motive for this abuse; rather than an illness in the parent.

I've looked at the NHS website, and they cite one of the reasons for 'Fabricated and Induced Illness' being a preferable term as:

"The term Munchausen syndrome by proxy has been misinterpreted as a psychiatric diagnosis when, in fact, it was designed to describe a particular pattern of abuse"