Thanks again, antivaccine activists. Thanks for the measles. Again:
Last year was the worst year for measles in the U.S. in 15 years, health officials said Thursday.
There were 222 cases of measles, a large jump from the 60 or so seen in a typical year. Most of the cases last year were imported -- either by foreign visitors or by U.S. residents who picked up the virus overseas.
U.S. children have been getting vaccinated against the measles for about 50 years. But low vaccination rates in Europe and other places resulted in large outbreaks overseas last year.
One notes that this appears to be a disturbing trend over the last few years.
And, yes, Virginia, it was the unvaccinated who were mostly responsible for this uptick in measles cases last year:
Generally, the Americans who got measles last year were not vaccinated. At least two-thirds of the U.S. cases fell into that category, including 50 children whose parents got philosophical, religious or medical exemptions to skip the school vaccinations required by most states, CDC officials said.
Given the news stories, I decided to go to the source, Friday's MMWR from the CDC, which was published yesterday:
In 2000, the United States achieved measles elimination (defined as interruption of year-round endemic measles transmission) (1). However, importations of measles into the United States continue to occur, posing risks for measles outbreaks and sustained measles transmission. During 2011, a total of 222 measles cases (incidence rate: 0.7 per 1 million population) and 17 measles outbreaks (defined as three or more cases linked in time or place) were reported to CDC, compared with a median of 60 (range: 37-140) cases and four (range: 2-10) outbreaks reported annually during 2001-2010. This report updates an earlier report on measles in the United States during the first 5 months of 2011 (2). Of the 222 cases, 112 (50%) were associated with 17 outbreaks, and 200 (90%) were associated with importations from other countries, including 52 (26%) cases in U.S. residents returning from abroad and 20 (10%) cases in foreign visitors. Other cases associated with importations included 67 (34%) linked epidemiologically to importations, 39 (20%) with virologic evidence suggesting recent importation, and 22 (11%) linked to cases with virologic evidence of recent importation. Most patients (86%) were unvaccinated or had unknown vaccination status. The increased numbers of outbreaks and measles importations into the United States underscore the ongoing risk for measles among unvaccinated persons and the importance of vaccination against measles (3).
We've been fortunate thus far in the U.S. in that we haven't had any really huge outbreaks. Yet. Europe, however, has not been so lucky. In 2011, more than 30,000 cases were reported in Europe, 90% of of which occurred in France, Italy, Romania, Spain, and Germany.
Antivaccinationists will frequently ask why they should vaccinate their children with the MMR vaccine when measles is currently uncommon in the U.S. Of course, the primary reason that measles is so uncommon in the U.S. is because over the last few decades we have been able to maintain a generally high level of vaccine coverage. I would remind them that the U.K. had also achieved measles elimination back in the 1990s. Then Andrew Wakefield came along. With the willing help of sensationalistic British tabloids, he spread the myth that the MMR vaccine causes autism. Within less than a decade, measles came roaring back in the U.K.. It's now endemic again in the U.K., thanks to plummeting MMR uptake rates. They'll also ask why it matters to those whose children are vaccinated if they don't vaccinate their kids. It's true that vaccination against measles is very good, but it's not 100% effective. That means that, because measles is such a contagious disease, even a certain percentage of the vaccinated are put at risk by the unvaccinated. Then there are children too young to be vaccinated or who have a medical condition that precludes vaccination. They rely on herd immunity for protection.
Another thing that antivaccine zealots frequently forget is that, like it or not, we live in a global society with a highly mobile population. A highly infectious disease like measles is only a plane ride away, and, in fact, that's a common way that outbreaks in the U.S. get started. The oceans that we used to look to to isolate us from the rest of the world are no longer any protection against infectious diseases, and, unfortunately, Europe and other areas where antivaccinationists have succeeded in frightening parents to refuse vaccination for their children are now helping to spread the disease globally, including to the U.S. Is Europe a warning for the U.S. regarding measles? It could be. I worry that the U.S. is on the same path as the U.K. and Europe, just five to ten years behind them. If we allow vaccination rates to fall too much, in 2020 it's not too far-fetched to imagine 30,000 cases a year in North America.
So, once again in light of this sort of news, I have to repeat a sentiment I've repeated a few times in the past: Rejoice, Jenny McCarthy, J.B. Handley, Jake Crosby, Kim Stagliano, Dan Olmsted, Barbara Loe Fisher, Dr. Jay Gordon, Dr. Bob Sears, and all the other antivaccine activists (or their willing dupes who oh-so-piously claim they are really and truly "not antivaccine") spreading misinformation, pseudoscience, and fear about vaccines! You appear to be winning. You're succeeding in casting doubt on the safety of vaccines to the point that it's causing real problems for our public health system every time an unvaccinated person travels. And let's not forget antivaccinationists in other countries, such as John Stone and Jackie Fletcher in the U.K. and Meryl Dorey in Australia. Because this is a global economy and society, it takes a global effort to degrade herd immunity in multiple countries around the world to make sure that measles.
Unfortunately for children, that's just what we have.
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One wonders what Dr Jay's current hot autism treatment recommendations are?
One wonders the same about Orac? Does he have a favourite autism treatment? Can't seem to find it through the site search...
It is my opinion (and not necessarily that of my employers) that we're much closer behind Europe than we think. I'm thinking 3 to 5 years behind. But that's just the epidemiologist and biostatistician in me looking at the data. As we all know, the singular of data is not an anecdote... Or something like that.
The measles hardly roars.
Hey look everybody is Sid, the guy who thinks that 220 cases is not a lot, even though usually ther is only 60 cases. So we now know that Sid thinks that measles isn't important unless it cases are overs 220. How many cases do there have to be for you to consider measles important Sid?
I hadn't heard anything more about the whooping cough outbreak in McHenry County, Illinois, so I did a little searching. It's up to 273 cases now. Hmph.
http://www.nwherald.com/mobile/article.xml/articles/2012/01/06/r_2lt7k1yxsfunzrniz6ni3w/index.xml
Hey look everybody is Sid, the guy who thinks that 220 cases is not a lot, even though usually ther is only 60 cases. So we now know that Sid thinks that measles isn't important unless it cases are overs 220. How many cases do there have to be for you to consider measles important Sid?
I wonder how many preventable cases it'll take. I have a feeling anti-vaxxers would continue to deny the seriousness of measles even after preventable disabilities and fatalities become expected, like they were in the Bad Old Days of my grandparents.
Before one of the usual innumerate suspects crows about how 14% of the measles victims were vaccinated, let me "run the numbers" for you.
In 2010 (the most recent year for which full data are available from the CDC), the percentage of people in the US who had received full (one dose for children, two doses for teens) measles vaccination was:
Children (19 - 35 months): 91.5%
Teens (13 - 17 years): 90.5%
Since almost all of the measles victims were under 18 years old, these numbers should be sufficient to calculate the odds ratio.
If the 222 victims had been randomly distributed (i.e. not dependent on vaccination status), we would expect that somewhere around 91% of them would have been vaccinated - just about the opposite of what was found. In fact, the odds ratio for getting measles in this outbreak was a bit over 62, meaning that the chances of getting measles was 62 times greater if the person wasn't vaccinated.
This illustrates two useful and important facts about vaccination:
[1] Vaccination works.
[2] Vaccination isn't 100% effective, which is why it is so important that we vaccinate everybody who can be vaccinated.
Prometheus
This side of the pond it is the same. In Liverpool, for example, there have been around 136 cases of measles in the first 3 months of this year.
http://www.hpa.org.uk/hpr/archives/2012/hpr1512.pdf
And guess who is most affected?
1) Those too young to be vaccinated (who will also be the illest potentially) 26 cases were in infants under 1 year of age.
2) Those who are adolescents/teens (ie those who missed out on MMR when Wakefield's MMR scare was at its height and vaccination levels dropped). Theis group can also be pretty ill, since measles in the "adult" can be severe.
So far there have been 28 hospitalisations from the first 113 cases in Liverpool (ie 25%).
http://www.hpa.org.uk/ProductsServices/LocalServices/NorthWest/NorthWes…
On the plus side, the current England and Wales MMR uptake rates are 92% for 1st dose and 87% for the second dose (having been under 80% post Wakefield)
On the down side, pertussis cases are up - with 665 cases in the first 3 months of the year (with 65 in those under 3 months of age and 3 deaths).
Yes, 3 deaths.
"On the down side, pertussis cases are up - with 665 cases in the first 3 months of the year (with 65 in those under 3 months of age and 3 deaths).
Yes, 3 deaths."
3 babies dead- I don't know how these fanatics can sleep at night. (Oh I know, they have no trouble- it's just the rest of us who can't)
Here's an article about the 2012 measles outbreak in Ukraine (more than 5,000 cases, YTD, according to Ukraine public health officials.)
http://www.vaccinestoday.eu/diseases/measles-crisis-5000-new-cases-in-u…
Uptake in Ukraine, for the first measles vaccine is 56 %; uptake for the second measles vaccine is 41 %.
There is widespread *suspicion* that Ukraine has actually under reported cases of measles. The risks for unimmunized visitors to acquire the disease, while attending the European Football Championship in June, is "high", according to the European Centre for Disease Prevention:
http://ecdc.europa.eu/en/publications/Publications/20120314_RA_Measles_…
It is beyond belief that American Airlines is featuring an interview with Meryl Dorey of the Australian Vaccination Network on all domestic and international flights during July/August. Transcript of interview can be read here http://www.antivaxxers.com/?p=4668
Between the Euro Cup and the Olympics, public health officials must be getting nervous. The current measles outbreak in the Ukraine is of real concern http://www.healthcanal.com/public-health-safety/28466-Measles-outbreak-…
Quote of the day from an antivaxer on another board:
"I'm hoping the measles "epidemic" comes to my area. I'd LOVE for my son to get it. Measles is the only known cure for his vaccine induced autoimmune disorder."
I briefly hoped this person might be parodying a bizarrely clueless antivaxer, but it seems not.
Speaking of clueless - hi Sid!
@ dt, if the parents are even aware, they get to look forward to worrying about SSPE which is 100% fatal and a horrible neurological sequelae of measles infection in approximately 1/10,000 cases although in children under 2 years old, the risk goes up to about 1/2000.
Sounds like someone's been listening to Thomas Cowan, who asserts that "all the pediatric textbooks tell us that a child who has nephrotic syndrome ... will most likely be cured if he simultaneously contracts measles." This seems to rather drastically overstate the case.
RE: 3 deaths from pertussis.
I am dumbfounded by the anti-vax belief that measles, vericella, and influenza are mild illnesses that no one should really worry about. Of course this belief can only be propagated in a generation of parents who have no personal or community experience with the dangers these diseases pose. It is deeply ironic that the fear of vaccines, rather than fear of the infections they prevent, has flourished only because the vaccines have been so effective. It seem we are doomed to suffer from contagion; either the encapsulated viral particle type, or the psychological mass hysteria type.
I had a futile argument on the GaiaHealth web site in the comments after an anti-measles blog post a couple weeks ago (after watching The Refusers First Do No Harm video, .. thanks a lot Orac, deep sarcasm intended). Of course my final and definitive post, complete with citations, links and brilliant and witty argument was deleted by the moderator. The debate equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and saying "LALALALALALALA I CANT HEAR YOU, LALALALALAA"
Link here if you want to take up the fight:
http://gaia-health.com/gaia-blog/2012-04-07/measles-outbreaks-centered-…
It got me thinking about two approaches to combat the anti-vax massage.
First is that a central online repository for information/links/studies/refined arguments would be helpful for those of us deluded enough to think that combating the blogosphere is a worthwhile effort. All cataloged by vaccine and also by Trope.
Second is that my non-legal mind wants to sue the stupid right out of these people. If you are publicly trashing vaccines and vaccine rates fall, then it seem to me you aught to be financially and criminally liable when the inevitable happens: disease rates will/have rise/risen and innocents will/have die/died. If I was a parent and my kid died from measles, H.FLU, etc, then I would want the Terminator for my lawyer. Finding a lawyer to sue someone shouldn't be too hard in this country, right?
Perhaps such efforts are already underway.
Next time I copy my post for easy retrieval.
CWatkins
#8 dt
Liverpool and North Wales. With the Eisteddfod starting the potential for the Porthmadog measles outbreak to spread to South Wales, which is far more densely populated and with much better transport links, it seems unlikely measles will stay localised to Liverpool and its immediate neighbours (even with dirty great mountains in the way).
http://www.wales.nhs.uk/sitesplus/888/news/22245
It's not easy to prove negligence for conditions that are contagious before they are symptomatic. There's no legal duty to vaccinate, so you'd have to at a minimum demonstrate, in addition to the chain of transmission that you're suing over, that a reasonable person would have known that they needed to quarantine their child or at least warn before coming into contact. And no, IANAL.
#11 AuntyFuzz
Reads more like a "paid presentation".
As the AV's maintain that vaccines are ineffective and the reduction of infectious disease is due to better hygiene. Are they now going to argue we're getting dirtier?
@ CWAtkins: If only...we could sue parents. I myself, would be looking into ways to sue Dr. Bob Sears, if I had an infant who got infected with measles, during the 2008 San Diego Measles outbreak (Thanks to Science Mom and Caterina):
http://justthevax.blogspot.com/2011/04/2008-measles-in-dr-bob-sears-wai…
No, IANAL...but we have proof all over the internet about Dr. Bob Sears' "alternative vaccine schedule". I would love to see a successful lawsuit against Dr. Bob...based on Dr. Sears' deviating from the American Academy of Pediatrics "Standards of Care" for complete and timely immunizations.
My daughter is seven months old, and I live in a high-woo area (Ann Arbor, MI.) One of my biggest fears is that some anti-vaxxer will get my daughter killed before she's old enough for these vaccinations. It's 2012. I shouldn't have to worry about these things.
RE legal approach
Parents may not have he legal obligation to vaccinate, although that is an issue that should be debated, but health care providers do have a legal responsibility to provide accurate advise and I think a valid argument could be made that chiropracters and the Dr. Sears of this world are liable for falling vaccine rates and ergo for resultant cases.
Anti-vaccine Web sites and bloggers are spewing a fire hose of misinformation that represents a very real threat to public health. How is that different than yelling fire in a crowded theater? Free speech has its limits. Logic and facts are not winning the battle, time to bring in the lawyers. We should at least try.
CWatkins
Not getting your child vaccinated against measles and mumps is absurd and irresponsible. These two diseases have life changing consequences. I grew up in the time before there were vaccines for these diseases and got both. Measles ruined my eyes. Mumps may have ruined my chances to have children. A parent that doesn't believe they should get their child vaccinated against these diseases should talk to someone who actually had the diseases. How soon we forget...
re Ukraine:
as they say, it's only a flight away.
As a matter of fact: I played tennis early yesterday am with someone whose house-mate just flew in from.... Ukraine.
Twenty-odd years ago, I had a very different life- family obligations and my ex's *interesting* career had me flying around quite a bit, most of it North America, Western Europe and semi-tropical island er... paradises.. but oddly enough, vaccine-preventable illnesses were not amongst my many worries. Things have changed, I guess. Thanks, Andy!
@ CWatkins:
If only. If only. If only.
Altho' I entirely share your sentiment it is far more likely that those who *spew* anti-vaccine- and other alt med poppycock- will sue people who publicise and de-construct their prevarication. The Grand Poobah of Woo has a stable full of lawyers at the ready as we speak just itching for a chance and then there is expat boy in Texas...
Thus I attempt to air as many dirty linens ( mis-information) as I can, leaving off my second last name and locus.
"I'm hoping the measles "epidemic" comes to my area. I'd LOVE for my son to get it. Measles is the only known cure for his vaccine induced autoimmune disorder."
WTF!
I would love to see the peer-reviewed papers backing up that statement...
CWatkins: "I am dumbfounded by the anti-vax belief that measles, vericella, and influenza are mild illnesses that no one should really worry about. Of course this belief can only be propagated in a generation of parents who have no personal or community experience with the dangers these diseases pose."
The lack of personal experience is probably because their own parents were smart enough to have them vaccinated.
Unfortunately, even retarded children were used as guinea pigs without fail. Cue Enders.
If you're a vaccinator, then you're an infection promoter. So yes, vaccinators are dirty little pigs. Get a clue.
I first realized how poorly the US was doing in measles vaccination last semester during my epi class. we had group project where each member of the group had an area (country or US state) and we had to gather and correlate disease and health data on each area. For my 6 member group the data (for area and measles vaccination rate(>18yrs))was as follows:
The Gambia 91.5%
Mongolia 94.0%
Idaho 70.5%
Niger 73.0%
Guatemala 93.05
Lebanon 53.0%
When I saw that Idaho was second to last, behind only Lebanon, and getting it ass kicked by The Gambia, Mongolia and Guatemala I was floored.
I should proofread my posts for grammar, also I should mention that we were told in that class that 90% is though to be the level at which herd immunity starts to have a significant effect so all those Idaho parents counting on herd immunity to save their un-vaccinated children should probably think again.
You're right. You are not a lawyer, you're an infection promoter. Vaccinated children can also become "contagious before they are symptomatic."
A further bit of evidence that childhood diseases were mass killers: The Baltic SD (now called Pioneer) cemetery opened in 1871. In the first ten years 131 people were buried there, 80 of them younger than 2 years old. You can see tombstones where families lost several children within a weeks time (probably diphtheria epidemics).
Has anyone made a count of how many deaths Andrew Wakefield is responsible for? I know Jenny has one.
Something people do not factor into account is that disease transmission can move both ways. Even in an area where measles is endemic does not mean there is an outbreak going on all the time. It is possible that an outbreak in Europe or the US can be carried back by the same channels and create a significant outbreak in a lesser developed country. The moral issue here is that the mortality rate there is >10%. Just so people can remember, we are trying to eradicate Measles all over the world. It has no non human reservoir. We are not just trying to stop it here, but everywhere. It can be done. In the last 150 years it has been responsible for 200 million deaths. It currently causes 45 million cases and 800,000 deaths a year. It may have only 1 per 1000 death rate in the US, but in the rest of the world it is 10+ percent. If you don't have a valid medical reason for not being immunized you should be. If you have a philosophical objection, then you are an ignorant, philosophically, selfish, child killer.
While you're thanking people for the spike in measles, be sure and add extra special thanks to the Johnson & Johnson heirs, whose generous millions in donations helped further the spread of the anti-vaccine message, including funding the work of our friend, Andrew Wakefield during his time at Thoughtful House.
A few approaches that may be worth trying:
= Lawyer letters to bloggers dispensing anti-vax nonsense. Basically threaten to sue them 'til they're blue, over anyone who gets ill or dies as a result of their advice. This may only scare off a few, but each one we take down is progress.
= Sic the Postal Inspection Service on blogs and Facebook pages that blab about sending infectious material through the mail (e.g. chicken pox contaminated items). Sending biohazards through the mail without appropriate paperwork and proper containers, is a felony. The Postal Inspectors are ferociously capable law enforcement, highly respected by the FBI, and they will swing into action if you provide them with evidence (links, date/time-stamped screenshots, etc.).
= Explore the possibility of writing legislation based on the model of "agricultural disparagement" laws that exist in many agricultural states. These laws penalize individuals who make statements against agricultural products without scientific evidence. Now frankly I detest these laws and any other attempts to protect private sector entities from even asinine speech, but as long as they remain on the books, they are a potential model. The goal would be laws that penalize individuals who make statements against vaccination without scientific evidence. Be sure to define scientific evidence in a manner that excludes papers such as Wakefield's that got yanked, and anecdotal "stuff" that hasn't been published in reputable journals.
= Also on the legislative front, explore discontinuing "religious objections" to vaccines or making them so strict as to be almost unobtainable, like getting conscientious objector status in World War Two. Various "speed bumps on the road to outbreak" might be tried as well, such as: =Parents who obtain religious objector status, are required to self-quarantine their entire families at the first sign of illness, and can be held civilly-liable if they do not. =Children of religious objectors ineligible for public school, parents must provide evidence of private or home schooling ("freedom isn't free").
= Develop religious counter-arguements to religious objections. For example the whole "render unto Caesar" principle is worth trying: "God won't send you to hell for obeying the law against your will." This is going to require input from comparative religion scholars.
= Fight woo with woo if necessary. OK, put on your rubber gloves and swamp boots first, but none the less: When someone claims that "vaccines aren't 100% effective," trot out the quantum woo and claim that "since the universe is fundamentally uncertain, there are exceptions to everything including the so-called law of gravity, but none the less, getting your shots is as smart as not leaping off ladders." Devoted students of the sociology of woo ought to be able to come up with some good examples.
= Use emotional warfare on anti-vax blogs. Tell emotional stories full of tears and sobbing and unbearable grief and terror, about people in your own family or people you read about, who were sick with or died of terrible diseases. Don't hold back details about bodily fluids and suchlike: the more gross the better. This stuff has a way of infiltrating the minds of readers and subtly influencing their decisions, in a manner similar to advertising.
= "Prescribe the symptom," also on anti-vax blogs. Go in there and "agree with them" and then say things that appear thoroughly delusional, overtly nuts, blatantly and obviously wrong even to nincompoops, etc. Occasional spelling and grammar errors are also useful but don't over-do. The point of this exercise is to create an impression that drives away undecideds who may come in to check out these sites. It helps to do this as a group effort and begin gradually, so the sites appear to be "going downhill slowly."
There are plenty of other possible tactics along these lines.
I have worked with children under 5 for 35 years. I remember when the whole class/group would be absent because of a measles outbreak.
Two weeks ago I saw the first case of measles I have seen for almost 20 years. The parents of the child are against vaccinations.
Thank goodness all other children in the setting had had the MMR vaccine - though some of them at a little over a year had only just had it, and none had had the second jab.
I think many young parents, because they don't remember the devastation caused by vaccine preventable diseases, think that they are trivial childhood diseases; others think they no longer exist so are no longer a problem, not realising that it's because of vaccines that they are no longer a problem.
It's all best summed up in the words of a colleague: 'Measles?! In this day and age?!'
CDC authorities 1967 (when measles was very common) :"For centuries the measles virus has maintained a remarkably stable ecological relationship with man. The clinical disease is a characteristic syndrome of notable constancy and only moderate severity. Complications are infrequent, and, with adequate medical care, fatality is rare."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1919891/pdf/pubhealthrepori…
Orac, the atheistic Skeptic Society agenda Member, measles alarmist, slippery slope logical fallacy user:
"If we allow vaccination rates to fall too much, in 2020 it's not too far-fetched to imagine 30,000 cases a year in North America."
How many deaths do you predict from your breast surgery position? So do you think there will be 3,000 deaths in 2020 because of the often quoted 1 in a 1000 measles death rate?
More so than the prevaccine era? So much projection. So little actual science.
Do you agree that there are risk factors for measles death or do you think it's homogenous?
Hmm.....
Very interesting-
h_ttp://www.ageofautism.com/2010/06/david-gorskis-financial-pharma-ties-what-he…
Hmmm....
Very interesting-
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/about.php
@anon:
Wow. I mean just wow.
The contortions in that article are reminiscent of Mike Adams' conspiracy paranoia at Natural News. Jake is really stretching.
Well, in the sense that it's a glimpse into just how credulous Jake has been. Has he trotted out that EPA line recently? I don't subscribe to Tedium Digest.
The "conflict of interest" which Jake Crosby claims is this:
1) The university at which Orac is an associate professor has received funding from Sanofi-Aventis.
2) Orac is doing research into using a Sanofi-Aventis drug as treatment for breast cancer.
3) There is research being done into using the same drug as a treatment for autism.
And that's it. Neither the university nor Sanofi-Aventis is funding Orac's research. He isn't even getting the drug for free from Sanofi-Aventis. He doesn't stand to make any money if the drug sells well or lose any money if it sells poorly. While it's conceivable that a university employee might fear that the university would lose Sanofi-Aventis's funding if they publicly anti-vaccine, it beggars the imagination that Sanofi-Aventis would make their funding contingent upon one of the university's employees writing pro-vaccine blog posts.
@anon
Thanks for the link. Did not realise how completely paranoid the anti vexers are.
By that logic, if you have an investment in a mutual fund that has some pharma shares you are a Pharma shill and need to disclose Conflict of interest.
Real Crazy
Fair warning - much gratuitous profanity to be had at this (very timely and on-topic) link, but it's worth it for the punchline at the end:
http://memebaseafterdark.com/2012/04/20/naughty-memes-dont-take-no-crap…
@g724
Bravo. That was quite a lengthy, well thought out list of possible attacks against disease promotion by the anti-vax crowd.
augustine @39 :
I see augustine is having difficulty with that pesky arithmetic thing again.
Perhaps as penance for my last link, I believe I've discovered Orac's secret identity:
http://memebase.com/2012/04/16/internet-memes-hes-in-credible/
Oh dear. Is Jake being stupid enough to push "Orac is a Phama Shill" again? That went so well last time he tried. I sincerely doubt his employer is very worried. But then, it's one more way that Jake is writing himself onto the unemployable list once he graduates.... I certainly wouldn't hire him.
Oops..that's what I get for reading blogs before coffee has sunk in. Jake's attack is from 2010, when he tried (and failed) to get the doctor fired. So "anon" is almost 2 years out of the loop... such a Brave Sir Robin!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but 1 in a 1,000 would mean that you would expect to see 30 deaths from 30,000 cases, right? Not 3,000. I do wonder when the troll will learn math and, consequently, how to make a reasoned argument?
Oh how cute, Augie manages to cherry-pick quotes from a decades-old article, demonstrate piss poor maths and set up a massive red herring all in one post. Hey Augie, the current measles fatality rate in the EU is the same as the pre-vaccine era.
Over at AoA Kim posted an article that compares pro-vacciners to Timothy McVeigh. Classy Kim.... Real classy.
@ RTContracting: I knew it, I just knew it...I'm not the only one who goes *slumming* at AoA.
Must the *journalists* at AoA, turn every sad day of reflection and every joyful holiday, into a device to bemoan their plight of having a developmentally disabled child?
We're approaching Mother's Day and Father's Day, when Stagmom and her colleagues will be cranking out multiple articles about their *stolen-by-autism* children.
Hey Kim, Arbor Day is April 27th. Are you busy planting seeds or busy composing another mournful article?
"their *stolen-by-autism* children."
Would they rather their children were really stolen by disease. This is a quote from an old Australian poet, Henry Lawson
I found it in this NSW report from 2003. The charts at the top of pages 2 and 4 are worth looking at. http://www.health.nsw.gov.au/resources/publichealth/surveys/phb_hepb_im…
@ g724:
As a devotee of the psychology of woo:
we could use the homeopathetic argument in support of vaccines.
They are "contaminated" with 'toxins' at vanishingly small levels thus- **because like-cures-like- they are their own cure! Hg causes and simultaneously cures autism! The measles virus in the MMR also causes and cures autism ( AJW).
Actually, because hardly anything in the wide world is pristinely free of other substances, we could probably assert that everything is its own cause and cure. So why take supplements to replace nutrients because the paucity of nutrients in bad food actually makes the products more nutritious! Less is more. More or less.
** I am writing as though I were one of them and I am not.
@ RTContracting:
@ lilady:
That place gets worse and worse! The ingeniously inappropriatedly-named Thinking Moms' Revolution is however, giving it a run for its money.
Here's what worries me: if SBM and consensus psychology/ education are portrayed as the very devil, could that prevent *some* of the most adamantly committed from allowing their kids standard therapies and school-based intervention? I hope not. I know that some at AoA do both standard therapy and woo.
@ adelady: Sometimes I wonder if secretly (and not so secretly), in their minds, "stolen by the actual disease", would be a better alternative for them.
I classify all their articles as Me, Me, Me, Me articles.
-Pity Me...my life has been ruined and, I cannot move on since my child was diagnosed as being on "the spectrum".
-Why Me and Why Me/Religion Variant...I'm a good person, so why did THIS (my child), happen to me.
-Martyr Me...I care for my child, not for the sake of caring (and loving), but because I achieve martyrdom.
-Angry Me...I'll stay in this state of blazing white anger forever. It justifies why I can lash out at my child(ren), the world of science and individuals who are not in lockstep with the group-think at AoA.
LW quotes Orac:
"If we allow vaccination rates to fall too much, in 2020 it's not too far-fetched to imagine 30,000 cases a year in North America."
...and then augustine:
"How many deaths do you predict from your breast surgery position? So do you think there will be 3,000 deaths in 2020 because of the often quoted 1 in a 1000 measles death rate?
C'mon, no fair making fun of augustine just because he overlooked a couple of silly little zeros.
It's the thought that counts. ;)
I guess if we're going to play the conflict of interest game, Jake and his task masters have a huge conflict of interest. If they're able to lie their way into successfully blaming drug companies, they'll be able to financially benefit.
Orac, are you still rethinking your policy on banning?
in the spirit of fighting fire with fire -
a testimonial from a member of the herd for Th1Th2
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/measles/unprotected-story.htm
"Megan now knows that her son was exposed to measles during his 10-month check-up, when another mother brought her ill son into the pediatricianâs waiting room. An investigation found that the boy and his siblings had gotten measles overseas and brought it back to the United States. They had not been vaccinated.
"People who choose not to vaccinate their children actually make a choice for other children and put them at risk," Megan explains. "At 10 months, my son was too young to get measles, mumps, rubella (MMR) vaccine. But when he was 12 months old, we got him the vaccineâeven though he wasnât susceptible to measles anymore. This way, he wonât suffer from mumps or rubella, or spread them to anyone else."
more here
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/unprotected-stories.htm
I am so sick of parents telling me they're "terrified this rash might be measles" because of the unscientific, hyperbolic crap you and others like like you promulgate.
There are far more important medical issues--like autism, for instance.
Yet you hyper-focus, obsess, perseverate and exaggerate until you've convinced people that measles is the biggest medical threat we have ever faced. Nothing could be further from the truth and you know it.
It is disgusting that you have latched on to this and beat it to death. You should be ashamed of yourselves for this.
Nice straw man ya got there. No one here has claimed that measles is the biggest medical threat we have ever faced.
Feeling the heat a bit, Dr. Jay?
David, the MMWR tells us there's been no measles in the USA for six weeks.
I haven't seen measles in my office for at least a decade. Probably longer.
Millions of people should be worrying about nutrition to prevent chronic diseases in children, toxin exposure to prevent disease and so much more.
Instead, you enable demagoguery about measles. I am feeling no heat. Just anger at your lack of candor in discussions of real health care crises in favor of leading the mob.
Jay Gordon - "There are far more important medical issues--like autism, for instance."
Really? Is autism more important than anything else? (talk about hyper-focused)
Have you even looked at the NSW chart lilady provided?
http://www.health.nsw.gov.au/resources/publichealth/surveys/phb_hepb_im…
DEATHS FROM DISEASES COMMONLY VACCINATED AGAINST, AUSTRALIA 1926â2000
1 9 2 6 â 1 9 3 5 -1 1 0 2 deaths from measles
1 9 6 6 â 1 9 7 5 -1 4 6 deaths from measles
1 9 9 6 â 2 0 0 0 - 0 deaths from measles
(personally, I'd take a sick child - even a really sick one, over a dead one any day.)
So Dr. Jay, how many measles cases with accompanying disability and death are acceptable? Is it 500? Or almost 30000, with half occurring in California just a bit over twenty years ago. Over twenty children died, with millions of dollars spent on hospital care (the brunt of which was paid by Medi-Cal, using your state tax dollars).
Fixed it for you.
And you now owe us all irony meters. You could just tell us exactly how much more dangerous the MMR vaccine is compared to measles. Just post the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers to support your statements. You might also give us the cites that show autism started to increase substantially in the USA between 1971 to 1985, coinciding to the introduction of the MMR.
you are welcome. We did it so thank the secular depressives would have something to complain about.
Dr Jay:
Texas Sharpshooter, are you?
How far is your office from San Diego, where an unvaccinated child sparked a measles outbreak just over 4 years ago (within the decade)?
About 135 miles, is it?
Less than a three hour drive, if you can avoid peak traffic.
When are you going to admit that you've just been lucky?
I have read this blog for a long time, but rarely comment. Dear old Dr. Jay has compelled me to do so.
I suppose that you of all people would know "unscientific, hyperbolic crap" since that's all that you're capable of citing as "evidence" for your position. Thanks to people like you, I get to worry about whether or not my very-soon to be born son will contract pertussis or measles before he is old enough to be vaccinated. I do not want to see my baby hospitalized or killed because of whooping cough! You're the one who should be ashamed. You are a vile man who puts the lives of children and immunocompromised adults at risk for the purpose of your agenda. Shame on you!
"NJ" aka Rob Hood, the mentally ill denizen of the SB:
Gee, Rob, posting in the afternoon with my 'nym now? You know that Orac will dump your posts as soon as he discovers them, since you can't represent yourself honestly, let alone intelligently.
Isn't Dr. Gordon the one who admitted that he'd had a patient with symptoms of pertussis but never tested them to see if that's what it was?
Dr. Gordon @61:
I wonder what parents those would be? Parents of his patients, maybe? Perhaps they wouldn't be terrified that any rash might be measles if their children were, you know, vaccinated.
Drinking Water, Sanitation, Health and Disease
About 2.6 billion people â half the developing world â lack even a simple âimprovedâ latrine and 1.1 billion people has no access to any type of improved drinking source of water. As a direct consequence:
1.6 million people die every year from diarrhoeal diseases (including cholera) attributable to lack of access to safe drinking water and basic sanitation and 90% of these are children under 5, mostly in developing countries;
h_ttp://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/mdg1/en/index.html
Well said, Dr. Jay.
@moto_librarian
Other people don't exist to alleviate your paranoia. Worried? Get YOUR shots and keep YOUR kids home.
"David, the MMWR tells us there's been no measles in the USA for six weeks."
Right Dr. Jay. I'm sure you checked the recent MMWR-Notifiable Diseases and Mortality Tables, and located the one case of measles reported from Florida, in the March 16, 2012 issue:
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/mmwr_wk/wk_cvol.html
You do know, don't you Dr. Jay, that there is a "lag time" between a laboratory-confirmed case/or cases of measles that a local health department has identified, and the time it is reported on the MMWR-Notifiable Diseases and Mortality Tables?:
http://vaccinenewsdaily.com/medical_countermeasures/318090-seventeenth-…
Feeling the heat a lot, Dr. Jay?
Dr. Gordon - And what explains the massive reduction in measles in the United States since the 1950s? Assuming people were to stop measles immunizations in large numbers, what would prevent the incidence of measles from increasing to its historic levels? If it would, how quickly would that happen? If not, how do we know it wouldn't?
@ phfire...great post, but you attributed "adelady's" statistics to me (blushing and wishing I could take credit).
@ moto-librarian: Just ignore Offal's nasty remarks; he's just a self-identified real estate/commodities investor with a degree in *fire science* from a fourth tier college.
Offal should be keeping his unimmunized kids at home and away from vulnerable kids and adults.
Congratulations on the pending birth of your little librarian!
Yeah, Sid, I won't leave the house for the next 18 months. But by all means, make it seem like I'm the problem, you enormous tool.
Leaving invective aside I recommend F Edward Yazbak's 'Measles in the United Kingdom: The Wakefield Factor' in which the actual UK data - and other - is carefully examined.
http://www.vaccinationnews.com/measles-united-kingdom-wakefield-factor
Mr. Stone, Yazbak was one of those who got child murderer Alan Yurko out of jail by falsely claiming it was the vaccines and not him shaking the life out of his girlfriend's infant. That is despicable, and automatically makes him and his friends (like you) not to be trusted.
Also, Mr. Stone, the MMR vaccine with the Jeryl Lynn mumps strain was introduced in the USA in 1971. Please post the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers that show an increase in autism in the USA between 1971 and 1985, and make sure none of them are dated after 1997.
I find it rather odd that Dr. Jay is so upset at me for pointing out that measles cases have reached a 15 year high in the U.S. and that in Europe, because of low vaccine uptake, they're having tens of thousands of cases a year. Particularly odd is Dr. Jay's outrage at all the parents coming to see him to ask about rashes because they're worried about measles. One wonders whether he now understands what science-based pediatricians have been experiencing for years, thanks to misinformation spread by his patient's mother Jenny McCarthy, her fellow antivaccine activists, and antivaccine apologists like himself, namely parents coming in with all sorts of erroneous fears about vaccines causing autism and all sorts of other conditions and diseases that science shows vaccines almost certainly do not, in fact, cause. It's also hard to resist pointing out (so I won't) that measles wouldn't be such a concern these days were it not for the "success" of antivaccinationists and their willing accomplices like Dr. Jay. Indeed, Dr. Jay appears only to be reaping what he has helped to sow.
Yes, I think Dr. Jay might actually be feeling some heat. He seems rather...upset. So much pressure. He can't back down from his statements questioning vaccine safety, lest he risk losing all his patients with antivaccine parents and his Hollywood clientele. Yet he clearly wants to be viewed as a scientist and science-based, something that can never happen as long as he aligns himself with the pseudoscience and antiscience of the antivaccine movement.
Poor Dr. Jay: Caught in a trap of his own making.
Pardon the cancer surgeon, he has never treated a child.
@ Dr. Jay: Shouldn't you be updating your website soon...especially your view on the MMR vaccine and the prevalence of measles in North America and in Europe?
http://drjaygordon.com/vaccinations/mmrnote.html
Oh, and Dr. Jay...I checked all the issues of the MMWR-Notifiable Diseases and Mortality Tables, back to January 1, 2012 and none of the 17 cases of Measles in Indiana that I linked to, have been reported in the MMWR (the "lag time" that I referenced in my post # 75 upthread)
http://vaccinenewsdaily.com/medical_countermeasures/318090-seventeenth-…
I'll take my 11-year-old daughter to England (my country of birth) in the Summer. Although she's fully up to date on her vaccines, and I had measles as a child, I've emailed both her pediatrician and my GP for their recommendations. If Emma needs to get an MMR booster she'll put up a fight (she's not big on needles) but I hold the ultimate trump card: no shot, no trip to Downton Abbey :-)
Yazbak trying to perform retrospective desktop epidemiology is like you thinking your competent to comment on topics you have no education in. Here is my response to Dr. Jay from another thread who asked about this rubbish:
@lilady/adelady
The 'my child has been stolen' theory just hurts me for the concept it's true.
My older sister is severely mentally disabled (not physically at all) due to a chromosomal defect. My mother did notice it at 3-6 months, though the doctors told her she was making it up - this was 1970, and she did have 7 previous children to compare her to.
I once asked her how she handled the (eventual) diagnosis. We're Catholic, and my mother deeply so, and her response, I think, was beautiful. 'This child is a gift from God, I will take her as she comes.' Some may say that's Church doctrine talking, but knowing how my mother has accepted her, looked after her, and what my parents have done for her, my mother believes and lives that.
Last Christmas, I was in a bad way, feeling depressed and generally cranky. Mum told me to take my sister into the pool for a swim - she loves swimming. Her giggling and kicking and splashing made me understand what Mum meant. I felt better just from being with her.
There is so little correspondence between reported cases and confirmed cases in the UK figures (apples and oranges) that there is no real point in comparison, on the other confirmed cases were rising in a period of improved uptake perhaps because the DH were desperately looking for them (no doubt as a stick to beat Wakefield, which is pretty much the way "science" works these days).
Second point, I don't take childhood illness lightly which is why I want active reporting of adverse vaccine events and long term follow ups, not retrospective statistics where these thing can be dismissed and buried.
http://www.ageofautism.com/2011/10/the-naked-cdc-the-truth-about-mmr-or…
http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500690_162-4086809.html
It is very easy to walk away having not collected the data and pretend that you know nothing has happened.
If Dr. Jay wanted to be viewed as a scientist, he'd act like one instead of the pandering suck up he is.
Face it, Jay - thanks to decisions like yours not to give a vaccine that spares kids from getting sick (sometimes seriously so) you decided that being the crunchy doc paid better and got you more notoriety. So Orac's right. Jay Gordon made his bed, and now he's got to lie in it, right next to Bob Sears, J.B. Handley, and the trove of anti-vaccination zealots who are helping to bring back measles - measles - to the U.S.
What's next, geniuses? Polio?
Pertussis is already back, so I'm guessing their next goal is bringing back diphtheria.
@ meg and your "mum": My precious son was born in 1976 and we knew immediately that he had "problems". He had a rare genetic disorder that caused profound and multiple physical, intellectual and medical disabilities.
I went through a period of grief and loss, in the very beginning, but then I reached out to family and friends to share my feelings. He enabled me, my husband and my daughter to look beyond our situation to find an inner strength and closeness as a family unit. Perhaps my experiences during the twenty-eight years he was in our lives, have "colored" my attitude toward parents who only see the negative and parents who use their "situtation" to justify their atrocious attitudes toward their child(ren) and society.
I really and sincerely feel sorry for them. They are unable to get past their grief and loss.
@lilady - I'm Aussie, that's how it's spelt :)
But yes, in not being able to move on (and I suspect there was a period of grief for my parents, but it was before my time) they miss the real gift - people who make you see the world in it's beautiful simplicity.
And also, help you recognise others for what they are. There's an 18 yr old cousin on the other side of the family, technically not a blood relative to us, who is worrying his mother because 'he's gone atheist'. But the way he is with my sister, making her give him hugs, making her laugh, being comfortable giving her attention and love, I tell his mother it doesn't matter, (I and personally think it doesn't, but, dealing with the old school here) he's a good kid. I know because he's good to her.
All we can hope is maybe one day they realise there is no 'blame' here. It happens sometimes. And that maybe they can see it as a chance to grow.
Don't forget, Dr. Gordon thinks measles outbreaks that hospitalize kids in Minnesota are a big joke so I can see why he's being Dr. Grumbles about this.
scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/03/dr_jay_and_argumentum_ad_populum.php
That thread is also home to the multi-level fail comment about "millions of years old symbiotic measles".
I recommend reading it for the lulz.
@ meg: I was raised as a *traditional* Lutheran with a Roman Catholic mother, who taught her three children to be compassionate and giving. Looking back on my early years, I think she was basically a humanist.
I in turn, brought my daughter up as a Lutheran. She was exposed to her dad's Roman Catholic faith and our collective humanism. She learned early on, that life may not be "fair", but she also learned not to blame anyone or anything. (*"Life is what happens to you while you are busy making other plans").
I prefer to remember all the good things that my son brought into our lives...and into the lives of all the people who knew him and loved him. I still miss him, but he is as close to me as my next thought.
* http://thinkexist.com/quotation/life_is_what_happens_to_you_while_you-r…
Don't be so daft. "Little correspondence between reported and confirmed cases"? You really don't know how this works do you and yet here you are commenting authoritatively. Show the data where vaccinated were responsible for a sizeable portion of cases because that's what you are inferring anyhow. And no, science doesn't "work" that way; it's a fallacy that you choose to believe because the facts don't fit with your biases.
Second point, I don't take childhood illness lightly which is why I want active reporting of adverse vaccine events and long term follow ups, not retrospective statistics where these thing can be dismissed and buried.
What a load of bollocks; if that was true then you wouldn't be spreading the blatant misinformation you do. There IS active reporting and follow-up of vaccine adverse events; you just don't like that most aren't related to vaccines.
If you aren't capable of citing valid sources for your horse shit then you will never be taken seriously. It must be positively exhausting to see conspiracy theories round every corner the way your lot do. Keep pissing in the wind Stone; you're a joke.
@a-non
I agree with your sentiments. I cannot get over the fact that these supposedly scientifically literate doctors have created a niche market based on unscientific principles. Worse, they promote these principles on their websites and in interviews, etc. They are in the privileged position of holding high credibility for most non-SBM literate people. With that privilege comes responsibility - at least I thought so. It stinks.
Should clarify that my comment above was for a-non at #87, not drive-by-troller "anon".
g274@37 "A few approaches that may be worth trying: "
Or this fantastic comic strip approach to informing the general population. The link is to the final chapter of the book so it summarises everything. But homeopathy, Andrew Wakefield and chiropractic get a whole chapter each as well as a mention at the end. http://darryl-cunningham.blogspot.co.uk/2011/09/science-denial.html
Apparently the evolution chapter has provoked the most comment and disputation on the writer's blog because he crowd sources editing and reviewing as he goes along releasing drafts of each chapter. I'm off to find the chapters I'm interested in.
Heads up guys; friends of mine just had a baby, got presented with an outrageous anti-vax booklet from some gullible Wakefraud-believer, were almost persuaded by all the standard tropes like 'disease rates were dropping anyway', etc (they'd heard none of them before).
After a few hours immersion in this blog (aka 'facts'), they were convinced - mainly by the postings of Th1Th2 - that anti-vaxxers are in fact nuts.
One more protected baby.
@ Science Mom:
Well, at the very least we can all be thankful that Mr Stone did not misuse Orac's hospitality to re-iterate his tired musings on the state of the media, pharmaceutical companies and the intricacies of the Murdoch matrix.
Be that as it may, any interested readers may find them listed chronologically @ Age of Autism under his name.
And -btw- conspiracies are an absolute necessity if you don't have the data: it enables bold maverick geniuses to explain why their pardigm-shifting discoveries never became part of the mainstream. I'm sure that my insight into this situation will guarantee a label of *insider* for yours truly. Such is life.
"And let's not forget antivaccinationists in other countries, such as John Stone and Jackie Fletcher in the U.K. and Meryl Dorey in Australia.....
Darwin knows we Australians wish we could.
scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/03/dr_jay_and_argumentum_ad_populum.php
That thread is also home to the multi-level fail comment about "millions of years old symbiotic measles".
I had forgotten the highlights of that thread, such as Dr Gordon simultaneously insisting that (a) the vaccination program is an unwarranted heavy-handed extension of government powers into private life and (b) breastfeeding should be made compulsory for the mothers of infants.
herr doktor bimler, we mustn't forget Dr. Gordon's famous eugenics argument:
As long as we're collected Dr. Gordon's greatest hits, I'm fond of the comments on this post, wherein Dr. Gordon states that "tetanus isn't everywhere" and, when corrected that yes, in fact, the spores *are* everywhere, he argues that since tetanus mortality in America is low, tetanus vaccines shouldn't be used here. Repeated attempts to get him to quantify the acceptable level of mortality or to explain his plan for bringing mortality up to par were unsuccessful. The hilarity continues from there.
Remember this gem from Dr. Jay? http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/06/dr_sears_lets_his_flag_fly.php
#104: He essentially argues that "judicious use" of the Hib vaccine should be instituted since it's a thirty year-old vaccine and it's worked with mass administration.
Damn, Orac could fill an entire blogpost with Dr. Jay's bollocks using just his quotes.
@ LW: Dr. Jay makes that same/or similar comment about all the Recommended Childhood Immunizations (See at the bottom of the page "Vaccinations, An Overview Through Childhood")
http://drjaygordon.com/vaccinations/vaccination-schedule.html
Denice Walter
Well, actually I cited a CDC paper where:-
(1) Approx 1 in 17 infants had a temperature of 39.5C or greater following MMR vaccination, but with no long term monitoring for health outcomes.
(2) Unwell infants were routinely vaccinated.
However, even if I hadn't there would still be a problem about the absence of active monitoring being cited as evidence of safety, as opposed to negligence.
lilady #103, oh, I know, but the comment thread is entertaining as Dr. Gordon eels around in response to knowledgeable commenters. I expect his site is all his pontifications plus a lot of "ooh, doctor, you're so wonderful."
I don't go to his site because, unlike you, I have a very weak stomach.
@ John Stone: Regarding your study that you quote about "unwell infants were routinely vaccinated". See this section which poses those questions. (Which, are consistent with the ACIP, the CDC and the American Academy of Pediatrics recommendations)
What if my baby has a cold or fever or is taking antibiotics?
Can he or she still be vaccinated?
http://www.immunize.org/catg.d/p4025.pdf
And, "no long term monitoring for health outcomes"
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Activities/VSD.html
"However, even if I hadn't there would still be a problem about the absence of active monitoring being cited as evidence of safety, as opposed to negligence."
Would you care to explain that, Mr. Stone? What do you mean by the nebulous "active monitoring...."
I see that Stone's comments are devoid of any data supporting his argument that the UK's Department of Health fixed stats to hoist Wakefield by the petard. Hell, any data for that matter.
@ John Stone: We are still waiting for you to provide the citations to Chris' posting directed at you (# 80 above):
"Also, Mr. Stone, the MMR vaccine with the Jeryl Lynn mumps strain was introduced in the USA in 1971. Please post the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers that show an increase in autism in the USA between 1971 and 1985, and make sure none of them are dated after 1997."
Mr. Stone, you have neglected to answer my question. Here it is again:
I'm allowing myself 10 minutes a day here. (I used to waste hours!)
Invective and anger have replaced honest discourse to a far greater degree than I recall when I was regular visitor a while back. That's tragic.
If you want to cherry-pick my quotes, here's a good one:
"But, of course, I certainly agree that abandoning measles vaccination would lead to unacceptable morbidity and mortality. I do not support that reversal of public policy. I support individual parentsâ right to participate in the discussion."
The fear of measles and the invented terror hurts more than it helps. As you all know, Wakefield's article--with which I disagree, btw--did not lead to an increase in reported measles in the UK. Inventing that "fact" is wrong:
http://apps.who.int/immunization_monitoring/en/globalsummary/timeseries…
There are just a lot more important public health issues. That's all. My time to waste here is up.
Have a great Sunday. Take a break. Do some good. Get fresh air. Play some ball. Tell as much truth as you can.
Jay
Dr. Jay, what exactly do you mean by "I support individual parentsâ right to participate in the discussion."? Because how many parents are qualified to participate in the discussion beyond, "I don't wanna"? Should their concerns be addressed? Absolutely but with facts and not the misinformation that you and your colleagues disseminate and not with elevating parental rights above facts, protection for their children and their social responsibility.
The fear of measles and the invented terror hurts more than it helps. As you all know, Wakefield's article--with which I disagree, btw--did not lead to an increase in reported measles in the UK. Inventing that "fact" is wrong:
You are making the same error John Stone is; you don't seem to understand disease epidemiology enough to figure out why there would be a lag between a particular event like Wakefield's Lancet paper, subsequent media hype, MMR vaccine coverage decrease and disease incidence increase.
Of course you would want the focus to be off of topics like VPD increases because they reflect rather poorly on you. It's not as though every other public health issue is dropped into the rubbish bin so cut the strawman argument.
Did somebody mention Wakefield? The word from Austin is he is half way towards a quarter million dollar attorneys bill from the BMJ magazine after he lost a run of three separate motions to attempt to stall his libel case.
Much talk among the clerks after he filed two motions to be heard simultaneously in front of two different judges, one of whom realized something was up and phoned the other from the bench to find out what the hell was going on.
Bottom line is three different Texas judges have so far ruled against his maneuvers. I believe something of this nature happened in England some years ago.
Dr. Jay, you are cherry picking again. It was the media that peaked in 2004. And as you can see from your numbers that after the introduction in 1988 measles rates plummeted, only to rise again after Wakefield's press release. You are just playing off that the numbers were still smaller than they were before 1988 when the MMR came to the UK. It doesn't work that way.
Also, you can answer my question I posed above to you, first the numbers of measles cases you think are okay dokay and...:
And who says that parents don't have the right to participate in the discussion? No one.
Dr. Jay appears to be confusing "participating in the discussion" with "being free from having pseudoscientific antivaccine views questioned or refuted."
Dr. Gordon @61, addressing Orac:
Yep, Dr. Gordon, "Invective and anger have replaced honest discourse".
Dr. Jay, I have always provided a link to your website, so that posters here can see for themselves what your public stance is on vaccines (in general) and on each specific vaccine.
BTW, It has been 12 years since the Prevnar 7 valent vaccine was licensed...how many more years do you need to offer up an opinion...or is it "still too new...."?
lilady
You seem to be going round in circles. So, you can cite the CDC advice to parents that it is alright to vaccinate unwell infants, but what is it based on? In times past people were more circumspect about vaccinating unwell children but now the schedule so is tight and overloaded that you can't even stop. In the words of the famous song of the First World War "We're here because we're here because we're here".
Secondly, we are dealing with a situation in which as many as one in 17 children get a severe reaction to MMR: it is utterly routine but we don't know what it means and unfortunately the existence of the VSD tells us nothing because it has been placed outside public scrutiny. But one other thing that strikes me about this is that if you actually followed the 1 in 17 cases where there is a high fever (LeBaron study) you might get statistically much more significant results.
Of course, I am not impressed by the fact that CDC is left to monitor it's own policy. What makes them different from from any other bureaucracy that we can put so much trust in them? You may say that that is a conspiracy theory, and I would say it is just ordinary political scepticism about an ultimately unaccountable organisation.
San Antonio @112, do you have a link for more details about that? It sounds like a fascinating story.
Mr. Stone, answer the question: post the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers that showed that autism increased in the USA when the MMR vaccine with Jeryl Lynn mumps component was introduced in 1971. Be sure the papers are dated between 1971 and 1997.
You said:
I just checked all your posts, none of them start with www.cdc.gov, please post the actual CDC document that you quoted.
Mr. Stone...There are degrees of "Adverse Reactions"...and a fever that is monitored by parents at home is not a Severe Adverse Reaction...just like pain at the injection site is not a severe reaction.
Should we be taking your *advice* to not immunize if a child has a low grade fever or a mild upper respiratory infection? You know, the guidelines are merely that. A doctor in consultation with the parent, can wait until the child's mild fever and URI are resolved.
Which agency/which group has the expertise to undertake the monumental task of monitoring vaccine safety? Who would you prefer to have the responsibilities of monitoring safety, Mr. Stone?
And Mr. Stone, why won't you provide the citations that Chris has asked for?
I see Mr. Stone, that Mark Blaxill's Editor's Note about this particular blog of ORAC's, has been wiped off the AoA website...why?:
From the Editor: Thanks, Orac! - AGE OF AUTISM
www.ageofautism.com/2012/04/from-the-editor.html?cid...
You +1'd this publicly. Undo
Apr 9, 2012 â Some Web dude named Orac says we're winning (a propos more measly measles): "So, once again in light of this sort of news, I have to repeat ...
@ John Stone:
I was alluding to a more generic problem at Age of Autism ( and similar websites): many who write there support a position** that is not supported by data whilst spinning tales of skulduggery and intrigue to *explain away* any research, consensus opinion or investigation that opposes that position.
I read the original Lancet paper early on and it just seemed 'odd' to me- not at all consonant with my own studies. I hardly thought about it until my own relative consulted me about vaccination for his newborn child because he was afraid of autism: I told him that I personally wouldn't have any fears. That was in 2001.
As a psychologist, I can certainly understand why some parents and grandparents of children with autism would like to believe the vaccine-autism theory: it would be caused by something external - medical, corporate or governmental malfeasance- not genetics, an interaction of genes and environment or even the play of blind chance. However, in order to disregard medical consensus and governmental data- as well as the media- from both the UK and the US, we would need to believe in a massive conspiracy involving thousands of people held in place for *decades*. How likely is that?
I find the alternate explanation more reasonable: a single person - who had financial conflicts of interest- fixed data to ensure his own rise to fame and fortune.Case closed.
** that vaccines cause autism
Chris, if you go to Stone's link to ageofautism (post #90), in that post, he links to the cdc paper he is currently referring to.
Jarrad, if Mr. Stone wished to use a citation then he must post it in a comment here. I see no reason to go to AoA, there is a reason I want to see primary sources and not wade through excess verbiage.
Lead author Le Baron gives his address as the CDC. I see a statement which I did not notice before saying the views are not necesarily those of the CDC but it doesn't really change my main point, moreover it is bothersome that no funding is disclosed. I also read the statement "The authors indicate that they have no financial relationships relevant to this article to disclose" which seems silly if you work for the institution responsible for the policy.
With regard to the other point that Chris is trying to make I suspect that early uptake for MMR was rather patchy - was autism incidence stable during this period? I doubt it but do we have reliable figures? Nor is it comparable with period of the mandated vaccine schedule for all sorts of obvious reasons.
Finally, I am not suggesting that vaccines or MMR are the sole cause of autism, but I would suggest a little less arrogance when addressing parents who have seen their children become sick or regress after vaccination: it does not engender trust. When people with vested interests start listening and stop lecturing they main begin to become credible.
Chris asked those questions at # 83...in reply to Mr. Stone's post at # 82 above:
"Leaving invective aside I recommend F Edward Yazbak's 'Measles in the United Kingdom: The Wakefield Factor' in which the actual UK data - and other - is carefully examined.
http://www.vaccinationnews.com/measles-united-kingdom-wakefield-factor
Posted by: John Stone | April 21, 2012 3:45 PM"
Yazbak's paper is not reliable and offers no citations to the questions posed.
Lilady
Yazbak's paper is based entirely on offically published data. Can you cite anything he has misquoted?
Dr Jay used to have an easy life, where mere parents never questioned him; now that Orac and others have spilled the beans, the poor doctor is being asked questions! It must be awful for him.
How in God's name is this not a public health hazard? These jackasses choosing to be Typhoid Mary should be held responsible for any serious outbreaks. You can't bring peanuts into school due to serious allergies, but I can have no vaccines and sit next to the same kid who may have some serious immune system issues?? This is sheer insanity. If my kid was in school I would want to know what kids were not vaccinated so if and when he got sick I could sue the shit out of the family for negligence. This makes my blood boil. When does it all stop??
Mr. Stone:
Not so fast, pardner! The level of measles dropped quite a bit after the introduction of the MMR in 1971, and even more so after the Measles Elimination Program was initiated in 1978. From the CDC Pink Book Appendix G:
Disease: Measles in the USA
Year__Cases____Deaths
1970___47,351___89
1971___75,290___90
(^^^ MMR licensed)
1972___32,275___24
1973___26,690___23
1974___22,690___20
1975___24,374___20
1976___41,126___12
1977___57,245___15
1978___26,871___11
(^^^ Measles Elimination Program started)
1979___13,597____6
1980___13,506___11
1981____2,124____2
1982____1,714____4
1983____1,497____1
1984____2,587____1
1985____2,822____2
1986____6,282____2
1987____3,655____2
1988____3,396____3
1989___18,193___32 (this is what happens when
1990___27,786___64 measles vaccine coverage
1991____9,643___27 is reduced)
1992____2,237____4
1993______312____0 (vaccine coverage returns)
1994______963____0
1995______309____2
On the 1978 program:
No more excuses, Mr. Stone. The MMR vaccine was used safely in the USA a full seventeen years before Wakefield published his fraudulent paper. Show what evidence he had from the use of the MMR elsewhere that there was an issue with autism. Show us the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers published before 1997 that caused Wakefield to make a connection between the MMR and autism.
Ooops, I have a mistake in
The seventeen years is how long before the UK introduced several versions of an MMR vaccine. Wakefield published his fraudulent paper a full twenty seven years after the MMR with Jeryl Lynn mumps strain was used in the USA and elsewhere, and at least six years after the UK switched all MMR vaccines to those with the Jeryl Lynn strain (no more Urabe mumps).
Which brings up another question: Exactly which MMR vaccine was Wakefield thinking he was studying? One of the two that had the Urabe mumps strain, or the one with Jeryl Lynn?
It won't end. Those among us who hate vaccines and science and the guv'ment will never ever admit that vaccines are anything but poison, and will use our children, real or rhetorical, as our defense. If you disagree with us, you don't only attack us, you are launching ad hominem attacks on our broken, useless, vaccine-injured children, again real or imagined injury, real or imagined children. It doesn't matter to us. You don't care about nature, what's natural. You only care about what scientists and big Pharma tells you to care about. Those of us who hate vaccines will never believe that they have any value for anything, even if all the measles come back, it will never be the fault of vaccine haters. You can't win. If anything the voices whispering or shouting malfeasance or conspiracy on the Pharma/ Guv'ment side will grow shrill. Measles will become something that was intentionally launched against those who question vaccines. Maybe measles will become something that big Pharma invented and then retconned human history to pretend it hand been there all along. It's not about facts. It's not about saving children. It's about felling that you are right and can win the debate. Or if not win, rationalize and declare victory. For our precious, damaged children.
Meryl Dorey, the head of the ant-vaccination outfit the Australian Vaccination Network, has managed to get a 3-minute interview on the in-flight programming for American Airlines.
An analysis of the lies and misrepresentations in her interview is available at Altitude Media and American Airlines Allow Meryl Dorey to Lie About Vaccines and Autism.
There's a petition to American Airlines at Ask American Airlines to Cancel Anti-vaccination Message.
And you do recall that the San Diego measles outbreak started with an unvaccinated child who acquired the infection overseas, and was further transported to Hawaii by more air travel?
@ MissFiFi:
Although I heartily agree with you, I think it might be too difficult to prove a chain of infection: they could argue that *others* exposed your child because people are infectious prior to showing symptoms- it must have been some *other* kid at a store you visited. However, I think we can show how bad ideas spread.
I suggest reading today's entry @ Age of Autism in which a Ms Jameson expresses a rather different point of view than ours. Read it and weep, as they say.
Get a grip people- How about SBM cleaning up this mess-
99,000 Die Yearly From Preventable Hospital Infections
As some 99,000 Americans die yearly from hospital-acquired infections, state laws are finally forcing hospitals to report the infections.
h_ttp://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/722645
@ John Stone...You posed this question...
"Yazbak's paper is based entirely on offically published data. Can you cite anything he has misquoted?"
From the Yazbak paper (regarding Wakefield's position):
"His position on the relative paucity of good safety data for MMR compared with the single measles vaccine has since been endorsed by the Cochrane Collaboration.[2]"
Here's the Cochrane Citation that Yazbak provided:
http://summaries.cochrane.org/CD004407/using-the-combined-vaccine-for-p…
"Measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) are three very dangerous infectious diseases which cause severe morbidity, disability and death in low-income countries.
Based on the evidence provided by three cohort studies (3104 participants), vaccination with one dose of MMR vaccine is at least 95% effective in preventing clinical measles among preschool children; in schoolchildren and adolescents at least one dose of MMR vaccine was 98% effective in preventing laboratory-confirmed measles cases; one or two MMR doses were respectively 92% and 95% effective in preventing secondary measles cases.
At least one dose of MMR vaccine is effective in preventing clinical mumps among children and adolescents when prepared with Jeryl Lynn strains (vaccine effectiveness = 69% to 81%, one cohort and one case-control study, 1656 participants), as well as when prepared with Urabe strain (vaccine effectiveness = 70% to 75%, one cohort and one case-control study, 1964 participants). Effectiveness against laboratory-confirmed mumps in children and adolescents was estimated to be between 64% to 66% for one and 83% to 88% for two doses of Jeryl Lynn MMR (two case-control studies, 1664 participants) and 87% for Urabe-containing MMR (one cohort study, 48 participants). Vaccination with Urabe MMR confers protection against secondary mumps infection (vaccine effectiveness = 73%, one cohort study, 147 participants).
We identified no studies assessing the effectiveness of MMR vaccine against clinical or laboratory-confirmed rubella.
Results from two very large case series studies involving about 1,500,000 children who were given the MMR vaccine containing Urabe or Leningrad-Zagreb strains show this vaccine to be associated with aseptic meningitis; whereas administration of the vaccine containing Moraten, Jeryl Lynn, Wistar RA, RIT 4385 strains is associated with febrile convulsion in children aged below five years (one person-time cohort study, 537,171 participants; two self controlled case series studies, 1001 participants). The MMR vaccine could also be associated with idiopathic thrombocytopaenic purpura (two case-controls, 2450 participants, one self controlled case series, 63 participants).
We could assess no significant association between MMR immunisation and the following conditions: autism, asthma, leukaemia, hay fever, type 1 diabetes, gait disturbance, Crohn's disease, demyelinating diseases, or bacterial or viral infections. The methodological quality of many of the included studies made it difficult to generalise their results.
The glossary of study designs is available in the full-text review."
Mr. Stone, where in the Cochrane citation did Dr. Yazbak locate any mention of the single antigen measles vaccine?
Mr. Stone, where in the Cochrane citation did Yazbak find any word, phrase or sentence to justify Yazbak's statement (in defense of Wakefield, that), "His position on the relative paucity of good safety data for MMR compared with the single measles vaccine has since been endorsed by the Cochrane Collaboration."
Mr. Stone, the first "citation" in Yazbak's screed is:
Wakefield AJ in Callous Disregard: Autism and Vaccines â the Truth Behind a Tragedy. 2010.
Since the author, Wakefield, is a fraudulent liar, it is not a valid source of data. It pretty much shows that the entire Yazbak screed cannot be trusted.
I hope to hear soon the official word on Wakefield's time in the Texas legal system. It should be very amusing.
Jay Gordon: "(Orac's) lack of candor...leading the mob"
Jay Gordon: "Invective and anger have replaced honest discourse to a far greater degree than I recall when I was regular visitor a while back. That's tragic."
Jay sees nothing wrong with invective and insults, as long as they're his own. Jay, if you want an improvement in "tone" here, perhaps you could spend even less time posting on RI (though of course you do your part to keep our irony meters tuned up).
Jay:"But, of course, I certainly agree that abandoning measles vaccination would lead to unacceptable morbidity and mortality."
Aren't you the same guy who once told us he gave no routine early childhood vaccinations except "maybe a DTP", and had to be talked into giving shots by concerned parents? Are you saying that your own abandonment of measles vaccine is fine, but you have some worries about pediatricians doing it en masse? That would actually make a degree of sense, since your select patient population would no longer be able to leach off the herd immunity of others.
Jay: "The fear of measles and the invented terror hurts more than it helps...There are just a lot more important public health issues."
Grossly inflated strawman aside (there is no "terror", Jay), this is an example of one of the hoariest old dodges going - "don't be concerned about X - pay attention to Y and Z instead!!!" How come you're even bothering to respond here, Jay, when the economy is doing poorly, climate change threatens and Middle East conflicts threaten to spiral out of control? Shame on you!
anon:
So why do you want more to be hospitalized with measles?
Especially when it is easily preventable by two doses of the MMR vaccine? There is presently a measles outbreak in Europe, with over seven thousand ending up in the hospital. Tell us exactly why it it better to not vaccinate and have people end up in the hospital. Give us some real citations that getting measles is a good thing.
Because I had wild measles and my titers are high -I'm in my 40's and a tri-athlete.
BTW Mr. Stone, you wrote articles about a hearing (or several hearings) that took place in Austin Texas On April 12th regarding the Wakefield-vs-The BMJ, Godlee and Deer. What was/were the purposes of the hearing(s)? Were any decisions rendered...and what were they?
http://www.ageofautism.com/2012/04/bmjs-godlee-swears-she-did-not-know-…
"On Thursday 12 April 2012 British Medical Journal's appeal against Andrew Wakefield's libel suit being heard in Texas goes before Travis County Court in Austin. John Stone, AoA's UK editor, reports on developments in the case."
anon
And because you are a self-centered asshole who doesn't give a shit about other people. I should add self righteous as well in light of the tri-athlete claim. I also had wild measles, but I don't believe that makes me special and superior.
Yes, and how many are in there because of A) quakery, B) science denialism, and/or C) a vaccine-preventable disease?
A) The people who took a remedy instead of something that works and are now in worse shape. Or the people who took a remedy and it interfered with the function of something that works.
B) The people who continue to smoke despite all the science that shows that smoking causes cancer and heart disease. Or the people who think that all-natural raw milk, organic sprouts, or unpasteurized anything is better than foodstuffs treated to eliminate pathogens.
C) The grandparent who caught whooping cough from a grandchild. The same grandparent with shingles. The college kid with meningitis or the flu. The older adult with strep pneumonia. The occasional person with tetanus. Or the immune compromised cancer treatment patient who caught (insert vaccine-preventable disease here) because some jerk in their community decided to not vaccinate.
anon:
So this is why you want more kids to get hospitalized with measles? Wow. I knew lots of anti-vax folks were cruel and evil to want kids to suffer from vaccine preventable diseases, but you are also vindictive along with evil.
Roald Dahl's book The BFG has the following dedication:
For Olivia
20 April 1955 - 17 November 1962
Can you tell us why?
Ren, and you need to add:
D) The patients who became infected from a nurse who refused to get the influenza vaccine.
The story of that happening is related at the end of Dr. Crislip's article Drinking from the Fire Hose: Odds and Ends on the Gasping Oppression. It also included in his most recent Quackcast, that I just listened while weeding out a planting bed.
Militant Agnostic,
You don't have to because you are an infection promoter. Geez. Talk about delusion of grandeur.
Here take your SBM pill and lay down that pipe.
Re: "Get a grip - preventable hospital infections"
I agree, that is quite unacceptable, and hospitals everywhere are striving to reduce the risks. In some cases these infections are unavoidable, but people must still do better for all those that aren't.
The argument is clearly a straw man, but it is actually a useful way of pointing out the obvious - that medics do acknowledge the death toll from infections in hospital and are actively tackling it. You don't find the internet full of hospital infection-denialist propaganda sites trying to pretend that deaths don't occur, or that they happen for some other reason. Were that to be the case, then SBM might well take up the fight against them, in the same way it tries to counter the denial of the antivaccine/pro-disease groups who want all our kids to die from vaccine-preventable infections.
PS: I noticed this comment on Age of Autism:
"Her head also became unusually large after this shot [MMR]"
@Chris-
Stop stupid questions. I was lucky- I do not advocate against vaccinations-my
children were vaccinated on a delayed schedule-they are school aged, up to date and not exempted.
More evidence-free claims from Stone. I know you think you are going for low-hanging fruit Stone but it's pretty obvious that you can't shine anyone here on. One in seventeen severe MMR reactions eh? Surely you have some data that would support that. It is also completely false that the VSD is outside of public scrutiny. These are only recent publications: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/library/index.html Your own charlatans the Geier Boyz even had access to the VSD, until of course they were caught trying to access identifying information. So again, please tell me how you support such a ridiculous statement?
Yea, it's a conspiracy theory. And oh look, Stone is full of shite again: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/acip/members.htm Helluva conspiracy to get all of those outside experts to be in on the "cover-up" right Stone? Additionally, we have the IOM which is an impeccable group that is tasked with gathering information from all interested parties and scientific literature to monitor adverse vaccine outcomes and reports on vaccine safety. Many of your "experts" have been granted an audience with IOM vaccine safety monitoring meetings. Did you forget about that?
Can't you people Ever argue with any integrity? What makes you think that these issues are mutually exclusive anon?
anon, then stop posting stupid articles that have nothing to do with measles and replying with idiotic answers ("Oh, I had measles and I am okay"). We can only go by what you say, and if you leave out information then we can only assume your intention.
So, what does the rate of hospitalization infections have to do with measles returning? Be specific and clear, or risk being accused of lack of integrity, scholarship and intelligence.
@ dt:
As shocking as this might seem, at the post wherein Ms Stagliano creates a metaphor involving a terrorist attack ( so what else is new? I've already heard holocaust), several critical comments by *qwerty*- a scientist whose child has autism- which make a great deal of sense are allowed through moderation. Will wonders ever cease?
For some reason, qwerty seems familar.. I think we may know him under another 'nym.
I've been asking the cancer surgeon the same way. "It must be awful for him" since he always put my comments up in moderation.
@ Denice Walter..."qwerty" was not the only one who took a swipe at Stagmom. Another poster who says (s)he has autism takes great offense at Kim's analogy to having a child on the "spectrum", is like the bomb that terrorist Timothy McVeigh used, that destroyed the Oklahoma City building.
A few of the (somewhat) saner posters at AoA, have taken on Stagmom in the past, for her coarse and vulgar analogies and her vitriol.
Where's John Stone? Why hasn't he replied to specific questions that Chris and I posed to him?
Now that Natural News has picked up on the "high fructose corn syrup causes autism" story, any chance the anti-vaxxers will move on to rally against HFCS and leave vaccines alone? At least that won't endanger public safety...
Dr. Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP wrote:
I agree with Dr. Jay.
Over the last few years the tone in the comments section of RI has gotten more invective. This is a disappointing trend.
You won't see the same trend in articles written on the other side.
A few years ago AoA portrayed some on the pro-science side as baby-murdering cannibals. Yet, this morning the first article there portrayed the same group as baby-murdering terrorists.
Yes, we are still a bunch of baby murderers, but we no longer eat our victims. I am certainly encouraged by this positive trend over at AoA and their efforts to be less invective. We should follow their good example.
What is Th1Th2 doing here? I thought Thingy had been sent to the farm.
@RTC#158
AoA is basically an antivaccine echo chamber. Their invective is usually impersonal and rages against the machine and gubmint conspiracies, rather than directed against individual posters (since dissenting opinion is usually not allowed by their ultrastrict moderation policy), but is quite distasteful for all that, and I see no trend it has become less so over the years.
AoA's commenters and its posters often resort to baseless invective. What do you call the article by their founding member likening scientists to terrorist maniacs like McVey? A pleasant discourse on the science of autism?
At RI anyone can and does post, which will include antivax trolls and wingnuts (who will unfortunately eventually succeed sometimes in provoking a respopnse in kind).
Here the focus is on facts and evidence, but in a more conversational way, and the RI responses do not carry the science torch to the same extent that other blogs such as Sciencebased Medicine do. If you want discussions on the abtruse scientific aspects of the debate, I suggest you go there. Dr Jay does, but somehow he still prefers posting here, I see. His own posts are pretty trite and fact-free, you will notice. Perhaps he prefers it here because he can moan that he is being bullied by "invective" as a way of avoiding answering pertinent questions, but on RI his evasiveness would lack even that lame excuse?
That should be for RTC @160 (why do the post numbers keep changing?)
dt @ 163 (for now):
The post numbers keep changing because the moderation filter holds up some comments but remembers where in the sequence of comments they were submitted. Once they're approved they take the place they would have if they'd been approved right away, and all comments that came after are shifted down.
Also, I think you missed RTC's sarcasm: although he purported to detect a distasteful "rise" in invective here at RI, he contrasted that with AOA's supposed lowering of invective, where they went from calling us baby-killers who eat babies to calling us baby-killers who don't eat babies. I hardly think he's sincere in comparing RI unfavorably to AOA on the score of "invective".
No thanks to Mercola?
Orac, you forgot to mention Mr. Joe Mercola in your list of antivaxxers we have to thank for the measles.
Thanks Joe! You're a big help to the measles.
anon:
There are many, many messes in the world, some easier to deal with than others. The presence of one mess doesn't give us an excuse not to deal with any of the others. But more importantly, the *existence* of hospital acquired infections is, in my opinion, an excellent argument in favor of vaccination. Do everything in your power to avoid becoming sick enough to wind up in the hospital, and that includes getting vaccinated if possible. And if you are a healthcare worker, it is doubly important to get vaccinated, because some of those hospital- and clinic-acquired infections are, sadly enough, vaccine-preventable.
Some hospital-acquired infections may never be vaccine-preventable. I'm thinking particularly of antibiotic-resistant bacteria, some of which are strains of commensal organisms, where vaccination may end up doing a harm we haven't recognized yet. That's why researchers are working so hard to understand the process of evolving antibiotic resistance, so that they can prevent it from happening. One of my favorite examples of this research is actually happening on the International Space Station, because it turns out that prolonged microgravity greatly accelerates the rate of evolution. That's right -- they're deliberately breeding space superbugs. They're the same as the superbugs on earth; it's just that they develop fast enough to make studying the process more practical. They did experiments aboard Shuttle, but as it was never up more than a few weeks, they were limited in how many generations they could get through. On the ISS, they can run the same experiments for months. It's pretty awesome, and it could end up saving untold numbers of lives.
I had the same fear as @21 before my baby was old enough for her shots. I hate that these idiots are spreading so much disinformation that it actually sounds reasonable to stay inside with your newborn for a year.
As for Dr. Jay Gordon, I'm LOL. Tell you what, doc, I *never* think any random rash my kid has is measles -- know why? Because I got her vaccinated, unlike your patients, thanks to your disingenuous celebrity nonsense.
Your daughter almost got "killed" by the vaccines you gave her at birth, at two, four and at six months. No you shouldn't be worried because you will surely get what you want. And by the time your daughter reaches one year of age, you may also want to enroll her in Shingles Club. And here is how it's done. Just give her the varicella vaccine and she's automatically qualified. Ask your pediatrician for more information and details on how to join.
Calli Arcale,
Hospitals are cesspools. It's where the immune herd dump their crap. What are you smoking?
Ooooh, anon's a triathlete with big, wildmeasle titers. I am simply mad, mad I tell you, about a man with big titers!
And guys with big, fake titers from vaccines, don't even try it. I can spot Big Pharmatiters a mile a way.
I didn't realize until now that this thread is incorrectly titled. It should be "Thanks, vaccinators. Thanks again for the shingles, measles, polio etc etc." There FTFY Orac. Let's begin with shingles, shall we?
Another classic from the annals of antivax cluelessness - this time a forum posting from a woman railing at the stupidity of her (pro-immunization) physician, who failed to recognize a chickenpox rash when the disease first presented in her child.
Gee ma'am...do you think one possibility might be that the incidence of chickenpox has fallen so low thanks to the vaccine (not quite as low as that of other vaccine-preventable diseases like measles, but it still dropped 90% by 2008), that docs are becoming less familiar with it and have less facility with diagnosis? And you consider that a wholly bad thing?
"Vaccines never prevented any disease!"
Uh-huh.
Three things that will prove the stupidity of her (pro-immunization) physician:
1. Primary varicella infection is either caused by natural infection or primary varicella vaccination.
2. Primary varicella infection can be asymptomatic or symptomatic. It is contagious regardless.
3. Primary varicella infection (either by natural infection or vaccination) can lead to shingles.
Therefore pro-varicella vaccine physicians are stupid and dangerous shingles-promoting ignoramuses.
Re the measles outbreak in Liverpool....
Somebody isn't happy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkqrrJBhUcE
@161 Kelly
The usual...looking for attention. Seems RI is, unfortunately, the only place it can get any.
@161 Kelly
The usual...looking for attention. Seems RI is, unfortunately, the only place it can get any.
Hahaha. This thread is dead and so is the infection-promoting agenda of these stupid shingles-loving vaccinators, at least for the varicella vaccine.
Next time pick someone your own size.
@161 kelly
Thing is here because Orac likes us to play with it. I hope Orac is getting bored with this little game as I am sure most of us have had enough already.
Best to avoid attracting attention to it ;)
Dr. Jay Gordon should be absolutely ashamed of himself, as should Dr. Bob Sears. To call yourself a pediatrician and be anti-vaccine is the same as being a pulmonologist who is pro-tobacco or a dentist who is anti-flouride. It's just plain inexcusable and is medical malpractice. I am ashamed that the AAP is too whimpy to actually stand up to these money-grubbing charlatans. So many parents take the silence of the AAP as explicit endorsement of the lies perpetrated by Gordon and Sears, and near as I can tell, the AAP won't denounce their sham schedules and advice because the AAP is afraid of facing a lawsuit from the likes of Sears or Gordon. I guess the AAP would rather be legally safe rather than being medically, morally and ethically right. This so goes against their "for the health of all children" motto that it is disgusting. Prove you really do care for vaccination by publicly standing up to these two dangerous quacks, AAP, and maybe some of us who have left you will come back. But I refuse to be in the same herd (the AAP) that Sears and Gordon hide in, because quite frankly, I can't stand the smell of them anymore.
Chris Hickie, MD, PhD
Shhh! Don't tell Thingy, but Thingy's insane rants repulsed a fence-sitting parent so much she got her child vaccinated!
Per Mark M back at Comment 101:
Take a bow, Thingy: Normal people see you as the lunatic you are, and act accordingly.
Posted by: Mark M | April 21, 2012 10:30 PM[kill]â[hide comment]
Funnily enough, I find that interminable bore on the epigenetics thread much harder to take than thingy (at least while it sticks to silly rather than nasty.)
Don't underestimate the positive effect of Thingy's previous rantings and, er... 'pawnage'.
This blog continually points out how anti-vaxxers are clueless, deceitful conspiracy nutters, but nobody proves it quite like Thingy.
Liz @ 137: I don't know if you heard, but the petition to get American Airlines to drop Meryl Dorey's material was successful. They're not going to air it.
@ Dr. Hickie: I've been wondering as well, why the AAP, doesn't come down hard on Dr. Sears, Dr. Gordon and all the other pediatricians who come up with their own schedules...and never even provide accurate information about immunizations to parents.
I presume you have seen this excellent article written by Dr. Offit that specifically addresses Dr. Sears' alternative schedules. It is a scathing review of Dr. Sears vaccine book:
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/123/1/e164.full
Is it possible that pediatricians who are disgusted with these alternative vaccine schedule doctors, could bring this issue to the attention of their local medical society? When I worked as a public health nurse in the division of communicable disease control in a County health department, we worked very closely with our County's Medical Society. I attended some meetings there and most of our physicians were members, participating in pediatrics and I.D. sub-committees. We had superb relationships with every primary care doctor, who was a member of the County Society. They were very "amenable" toward any public health initiative that we were involved with, especially our Immunization Program.
We all do our share here, even retired public health nurses. *Some of us* even go slumming and posting at the Huffington Post, to confront Dr. Sears and other quacks.
Julian thank you. One good news item for the day.
@ Julian...I already heard, but some of the crazies (Offal, for one) are promoting a *petition* on the Facebook sites, to have the video re-inserted in their on-board PSA schedule. I believe that they don't have a prayer.
Just to make certain however, does anyone have the email address to reach American Airlines Executive Offices? I've saved the emails I sent and the responses I received from the VP-Medical Director at Delta Airlines...when Babs and the NVIC tried that same sh*t with their PSA, last December.
adelady @181 - Seconded - The only difference between the bore and our regular trolls like thingy is the level education. They are equally mentally ill.
Julian - that was quick. I think a corner has been turned. I expect Meryl Dorey will double down on the crazy.
@Militant Agnostic, you were correct. She's accused American Airlines of giving in to blackmail from big pharma.
**eyeroll**
@lilady 80 - thanks, and sorry to make you blush:)
This comment by Sid (@77 -Posted by: Sid Offit | April 21, 2012 3:10 PM ) should be broadcast far and wide..
"Other people don't exist to alleviate your paranoia. Worried? Get YOUR shots and keep YOUR kids home."
These paranoid fanatics believe that every baby under a year old should stay home while they follow their specious theories? ( Sounds rather psychotic to me.. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0002520/)
I doubt the herd would remain complacent if they truly realized the threat.
The APS needs to stand up for children regardless of potential lawsuits.
(A lawsuit may even provide fodder for the FTC - bring it on.)
@ Dr. Hickey, I agree that the AAP has been completely flaccid with regards to some of it's "alternative" members like Sears and Gordon, however, what can you expect from an organisation that actually panders to alternative practitioners? http://www2.aap.org/sections/chim/default.cfm
Common sense in Canada!
From today's Toronto Star: "Pediatricians in Canada discharging unvaccinated children"
http://www.thestar.com/living/article/1167428--pediatricians-in-canada-…
Of course the comments are always the discouraging part of these stories. I didn't know we had so many anti-vax conspiracy nuts up here in Canada. Some of the comments could be right out of AofA.
@ Science Mom: I used the "search" section of that website to search for any pediatricians who have listed themselves as alternative pediatric practitioners:
http://www.healthychildren.org/English/tips-tools/find-pediatrician/Pag…
I located only one pediatrician listed in Santa Monica...the "pediatrician to the stars", Jay Gordon.
I located only one pediatrician in Capistrano Beach...Bob (Alternative Vaccine Schedules) Sears.
Lilady:
Actually, the Capo Beach office address is given for the whole Sears family, all four of them. From their websites, they appear to all be quacks.
The address is on Camino de Estrella, which forms the dividing line between Dana Point (Capo Beach) and San Clemente. One or more of the Sears's gives an address just inland, at 655 Camino de los Mares, which is the same street after crossing the freeway. That building is just across from the San Clemente hospital, which was (last I knew) the San Clemente Campus of Saddleback Hospital. The main Saddleback Hospital location is in Laguna Niguel.
I lived within a mile of there for over twenty years, and never knew about these clowns until I moved away.
@ Bill Price:
"I lived within a mile of there for over twenty years, and never knew about these clowns until I moved away."
Bill...that is why we come to RI...to learn all about the clowns :-)
Science Mom and Lilady-
When I've handed out the Offit & Moser article, I usually get a look of surprise from parents, as in "you want me to read a journal article?"--though I did have one dad read it and change his mind because of it. Part of my frustration is just the pure principle of the AAP not having the courage of its convictions to actually publicly and specifically stand up against at least the untested and dangerous schedules or Sears/Gordon like it at least did with the NVIC and its advertising on the Times Square jumbotron and on airline flights. Why should Sears/Gordon get preferential treatment? Do they have some sort of protective glycoprotein coating that cloaks them from AAP criticism? It's just as sad the AAP really has nothing on its web sites that is easy to find that specifically as a policy statement condemns any/all alternative schedules, including those that delay and skip vaccines.
I've been writing the AAP headquarters directly for 4 years now, and for 3 years never even got a "thank you for your concern" letter back. A few months ago I wrote the state AAP (AzAAP) chapter and they forward my letter to AAP headquarters where I actually did get to talk to their media relations director and then President Block, who was the one who told me of AAP fears of being sued for defamation of character if they publicly denounced Sears or Gordon. I suggested they at least consider denouncing their schedules as a simple matter of fact on their web site and he told me it would be looked into, but that was over 2 mos ago and nothing has happened and no one has contacted me since, so I can mostly assume nothing will happen.
Oh, and my home state, Arizona, just had an infant death from whooping cough (http://azstarnet.com/article_3fca26fe-8fb8-11e1-83c3-001a4bcf887a.html), which worries me we will start to see a death pattern in infants like in California in 2009-2010 from pertussis (the ultimate irony was the national AAP convention was in California during this outbreak yet there was nothing of any substance mentioned about all these infants needlessly dying at that convention, as though the AAP lives in some sort of sensory-deprived vacuum).
--Chris Hickie, MD, PhD.
Unfortunately, larger organizations like the AAP move slowly - unlike single individuals like Dr. Gordon & Sears, who can pretty much do as they please. They also have the option of acting like the "victim" and pulling the martyr card if the AAP ever came down on them (which plays well with their supporters).
I, too, would love to see more information out there - but I understand the limitations and the time it would take to "turn the battleship."
@ Dr. Hickie:
I see that the infant's death from pertussis is all over the internet and all over local media outlets, as well.
One of the comments on the site you provided had a decidedly vicious comment about "foreigners"...yet others piled on in defense of Hispanic parents being very compliant, when it comes to immunizations. That has been my experience as well, when I worked in public health clinics.
Arizona does have a statewide immunization registry and physicians are "mandated" to report each immunization given to each child 0-18 years of age:
http://www.azdhs.gov/phs/asiis/
Does Arizona review compliance with their Recommendations for School entry and the AAP Recommendations, by each practicing pediatrician, Family Practice doctor and pediatric clinics...or is this registry merely a repository to access individual records?
Tdap vaccine is now recommended for pregnant women prior to their EDC...as well as close family members:
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6041a4.htm
I am wondering if this is being implemented in Arizona?
@ Dr. Hickie, that is because the AAP doesn't condemn alternate vaccine schedules and has a bioethics statement regarding dismissal from a practice should be a last resort: http://neoreviews.aappublications.org/content/pediatrics/127/Supplement…
If they told you that then I believe that's a load of bollocks. They have published Dr. Offit's skewering of Sears in Pediatrics after all. My guess is that they don't want to directly attack "one of their own". Your assumption that nothing will happen is probably correct.
Throw out a family may be a last resort, but when you get to that point it should be used. I don't want unvaccinated kids around mine, especially in the sick waiting area.
Science Mom, My impression is the AAP was happy to publish Offit & Moser because it was Offit & Moser criticizing Sears and the AAP was simply providing the forum for discussion (in which Sears did publish his response(s) to Offit & Moser). I pointed out to the director of media relations for the AAP that they had no problem criticizing Wakefield on their web site, and he corrected me, saying the AAP had not directly criticized Wakefield (using instead other's opinions and findings) and was glad they hadn't, since Wakefield was now suing for libel everyone who publicly criticized him. This hacked me off because the AAP is essentially admitting it hasn't the courage of its convictions and relies on others (such as Offit & Moser) to be surrogates for their unpublished opinions.
I am equally upset given that on the one hand the AAP will not forcefully come out against these alternate schedules, but then on the other tells me I'm not to dismiss families where the parents are barely, if at all, vaccinating their children. It doesn't seem right that they won't support pediatricians at one end but then want us to take the risk (because we're not supposed to dismiss non-vaccinating families) at the other end of an unvaccinated child bringing measles, pertussis or chicken pox into our waiting rooms and infecting the littlest ones with a disease for which they were too young to receive vaccine. I don't think it's right they play this both ways. I haven't dismissed under/non-vaccinating families yet, but given this pertussis death, the consideration of dismissing these families becomes a sad but probably necessary reality to protect the wee ones as vaccination rates continue to plummet.
Admittedly, my personal experiences with non-vaccinating parents when my children were infants (born 1970 and 1976), were quite different, than what is being experienced by new parents today.
Back then, young mothers recalled actually having measles, mumps, rubella and chicken pox infections. Back then, young mothers recalled how they lined up for the Salk polio vaccine. They also recalled the panic experienced by pregnant women who were infected with the rubella virus...during their first trimesters.
A while back, many of us commented on the present situation of parents "opting out" of vaccines thus putting young infants and kids who have medical contraindications to certain vaccines, at risk in doctor's waiting and examination rooms.
At that time, I commented that if I had a very young infant not fully immunized with DTaP vaccine, or a vulnerable medically labile child who could not be immunized with the DTaP MMR or MMR-V vaccines and/or vaccines that protect children against deadly invasive bacterial diseases, I would question the pediatrician intently, about his/her policy regarding non-compliant parents. I also stated that I would "opt out" of any pediatric practice, that deviated from the CDC and the AAP Recommended Childhood Vaccine Schedules...or any pediatric practice that *encouraged* parents to deviate from those Recommendations.
Chris Hickle - it's not surprising to me that the AAP is silent on members like sears and gordon. Jeez, they wouldn't even go on the offensive against Jenny McCarthy and Jim Carey!
I always wondered why the AAP didn't come out with a statement of how their vaccine policy is determined by worldwide recognized experts in immunology, and not by washed up Playboy models or teo-bit actors.
What we they afraid of? Insulting the ex-playboy modelcontingent?
Of course, why do the heavy lifting when you can get the resident lightning rod to do it for you? That isn't a slam on Dr. Offit by the way; quite the opposite. I have grown rather weary of what appears to be the over-use of Dr. Offit as a lightning rod because other authorities are too weasely.
I pointed out to the director of media relations for the AAP that they had no problem criticizing Wakefield on their web site, and he corrected me, saying the AAP had not directly criticized Wakefield (using instead other's opinions and findings) and was glad they hadn't, since Wakefield was now suing for libel everyone who publicly criticized him.
What another load of bollocks. If that was true, every science blogger and academic who has criticised Wakers (and it's a long list including our host) would have been sued and they haven't, just Brian Deer and now BMJ and Dr. Godlee ala Brian Deer.
Exactly. Given that they are blatantly pandering to the "complimentary and integrative medicine" crowd, I don't think it's courage of their convictions that's their problem, it's having decent convictions to begin with.
Take a look at this Wikipedia entry for the IDSA (Infectious Disease Society of America), under "Lyme disease treatment guidelines"...to see how certain doctors who were treating *chronic Lyme disease*...manipulated Richard Blumenthal, Connecticut Attorney General, to bring a lawsuit against the IDSA:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infectious_Diseases_Society_of_America
Doctors who formulated the IDSA Lyme disease treatment guidelines, were threatened by *chronic Lyme disease patients* at their workplace and at public meetings.
The *so-called* LLMDs (Lyme Literate Medical Doctors) who have treated and continue to treat *chronic Lyme disease* patients with long term IV antibiotics, chelation and HBOT, are free to practice...unless there is a patient-generated complaint or if a patient dies from treatment for *chronic Lyme disease*. Here's a real bad ass doctor who was already convicted of manslaughter in the death of a patient, and who faces new criminal charges:
http://cjonline.com/news/state/2010-10-26/ex_physician_convicted_of_fra…
I'm still waiting for the AAP to stand behind their recommendations for timely and complete immunizations according to their own and CDC's Recommended Childhood Immunization Schedule. Shame on them.
Lilady, wow. I looked at the link to the fraudulent doctor. I googled the meds he was using. Bismuth salts and weird homeopathic remedies. I could not even find a straight medical reference on most of them. Scary
Sorry for the rant. I merely wanted to point out that the IDSA stood their ground...in spite of the onslaught of *Lyme Disease Support Groups*, *LLMDs* and a criminal charge brought against the IDSA by Richard Blumenthal. This is in sharp contrast to the AAP, which is aware of certain doctors (Dr. Jay Gordon M.D., FAAP, Dr. Bob Sears M.D., FAAP...and others), who have *alternative schedules*, are listed as *vaccine friendly doctors* and who encourage parents to make up their *own schedules* for immunizations.
Yeah, I'll continue to post on the Ho-Po about childhood immunizations...and if Dr. Bob Sears *allows* my comments to get out of moderation, I'll nail him, again.
Lilady, where is a current vaccination thread on HuffPo?
You just have to Google under the Huffington Post Header...here's a listing of Dr. Bob Sears' articles. See the Sears article about California AB 2109:
http://search.huffingtonpost.com/search?o_q=vaccines&s_it=topsearchbox…
You can also "Google" autism, autism/vaccines, etc.
Some of the RI regulars also post on the Ho-Po and we often "alert" each other through our posts here on RI.
I've been following several scientific blogs recently and have been impressed with the positive and accurate posts published, especially during World Immunization Week. Those posts eventually led me here to read the lively discussion above, which I have thoroughly enjoyed. Then today a friend shared a link on FB to this blog. It baffles me that these individuals believe that pharma companies are vaccinating for financial gain. I know the facts are out there to prove otherwise. I know the science to support vaccinating exists. I also know I'm a nuclear engineer and not a research scientist or physician, so I leave these types of issues to other experts. I was hoping this group could politely point these misinformed moms throwing around anecdotal information in the right direction using the comment section of their post.
@ Ashley @ C is for Cockerham:
I've been alerting readers to them since their inception- which was assisted by Age of Autism. I don't comment on anti-vaccine/ alt med blogs but perhaps someone else here might. I doubt it would do much good- however they may have a few readers who might still be 'on the fence'.
Ashley, we are very familiar with that blog. It would be very nice to show those "moms" the error of their ways, but our experience with these blogs is that comments that go against their beliefs are not approved. Usually it is from the experience with the older "Age of Autism" blog, which is why there are blogs with names like "SilencedByAgeOfAutism."
If you look at this blog you will see several dissenting comments. I checked you link, there are no dissenting comments. There is a reason for that.
Now, there are other things that have been done. The final results turn into:
5497 likes for:
1. The Thinking Person's Guide to Autism
1097 likes for:
2. Thinking Mom's Revolution
687 likes for:
3. Autismum
@ Ashley: That site that you linked to had a chart of "mandatory vaccines"; I enlarged it and "Googled" the web page (drmomma.org), where they got that chart:
Look at this...directions to make placental chocolate truffles:
http://www.drmomma.org/2012/04/chocolate-placenta-truffles.html
Oh yummy...just when you think the TMR can't get any whackier...they ally themselves with a chiropractor who provides this recipe.
"placental chocolate truffles" Just the thought............
Would you believe that you can become a "placental encapsulation specialist"?
http://placentabenefits.info/
For $295...you too, can be *certified* as a "placental encapsulation specialist".
Apparently, you are supposed to ask delivery room staff for your placenta...your partner can then take it home and refrigerate or freeze and call the *certified placental encapsulation specialist* to pick it up. The following day the *CPES* returns with gel capsules filled up with chopped up placenta.
I suspect the above comment is going to fetch the author some Insolence very soon.
I'll also add that linkbacks are really irritating in a flow of comments even if, as in this case, it's amusingly dimwitted. (You can't believe anything on MDC without... what, vetting by a really bad band? If there's one thing they do, it's self-policing, if but of a fashion.)
^ Did someone say something about a newfangled gizmo called "preview"? Bold should be "MDC" alone.
@ Science Mom:
Oh f@ck! I just read the above and really wonder what they're talking about- while I can recall a particular commenter talking about posting wildly outre remarks on anti-vax sites, many others objected, saying that we should stick to reality because it's our strong suit and the best argument. But telling people to claim they or their children have disease injuries when they don't -that's just friggin' ludicrous! There are parents of kids hurt by illness here, IIRC.
-btw- I never got my scheduled measles vax in the '60s because I contracted the measles first - while I can't recall much, my older cousins claim I missed about a month of school - I had to stay in a darkened room, not able to draw, read or write- which I do remember. Awful. I have no idea whether my light sensitivity has anything to do with measles.
It obviously didn't hurt my academic record.
Let me mull over the Refusers' post a while.... I have resisted making a nasty little jibe based on their name--- perhaps I shouldn't have.
Again, denialism relies upon the time-worn strategy of taking quotes and information *out of context*-
in the post, a commenter who makes certain suggestions is quoted BUT those who think that this ISN'T a great idea are left out of the picture ( i.e, Antaeus, lilady, Liz, Vicki and yours truly)- this might give a false impression about RI.
To be fair, they do link to the comments section.
They probably see us as evil faeries, witches, dragons and demons anyway- so what's the difference?
DW, I made a comment there that states what you just did. How much would you like to wager that it doesn't make it out of moderation? Oh and did you get a load of the author Dr. Brownstein? A website full of products to sell you "holistic" health. I doubt any of the followers of that drek would be arsed to read the comments section here.
@ Denice Walter.....
"They probably see us as evil faeries, witches, dragons and demons anyway- so what’s the difference?"
OK. Here is how we see them.....
http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/152/5/4/cletus__the_slack_jawed_…
How they see us.....
http://www.stevebromley.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/evil-scient…
lsm: "Jake is really stretching."
Yes. He's stretching his arsehole. So that he can get every last being of shit out of it for his 'writing'.
comment ... it's a good one... as usual ;)