The "toxin gambit" on steroids and more

Oh, well, I suppose I should be grateful Moore didn't pull the "aborted fetal tissue" gambit.

Oh, give her time, Orac. I'm sure she just forgot about the aborted fetal tissue and will put that into her next edifying post.

I honestly take my (figurative) hat off to you. How on earth do you read this stuff without your eyes crossing and your brain melting?

We are the victims of our own success. My grandfather and mother made sure we had all available vaccines because they knew all too well about the diseases. Too many people our age and younger have NO clue.

They didn't see the people with bad outcomes because those people either were dead or hidden away. I don't know if my elementary school was odd that the "special education" room was visible and the students were known (although generally avoided). But we DID see the retarded, the autistic, the deaf all wearhoused into one small room.

I also saw friends who had "no problems" with chicken pox. OK, so they have scars all over (I still have a few visible, myself). But who cares? Chicken pox isn't deadly. Oops...tell that to the woman in ICU who lost her baby at 8 months and nearly died herself from her 2nd infection of chicken pox. But you only get it once, right? Right?

Blech. Too early in the morning to deal with the stupidity. Again, I stand in awe of your ability to read and analyze this junk.

The side effects are autism, diabetes, asthma, MS, SIDS, and more.

I'd like to put forward a hypothesis. The problem is I don't know if it is original.
My hypothesis is that before vaccinations, people with cancer, asthma etc. would be less healthy. So when they became infected, the infection (Measles, Whooping Cough diphtheria) was more likely to kill them than somebody who didn't have these conditions. When mass vaccination occurred, the people with these conditions were more likely to survive the infection, but would be done in by their underlying condition.

Can I just say that "feces of three healthy children in Cleveland" would be an AWESOME name for a band!

Vaccines all contain large amounts of Dihydrogen Monoxide which can cause death if inhaled.

Orac -- I am amazed you can read this stuff and still maintain your sanity (assuming you are, in fact, staying sane).

It's rather surprising that none of the antivax folks have yet made the connection between KCl and teh radiation that I pointed out a few days ago -- but that would require their stupid to go to 12!

Umm! That banana sure tasted good.

What is the obsession with diploid cells? Is it just that there are so many horrible chromosomes, or do they think a diploid is some sort of nasty organ?
~~~
...
Mutilated monkey meat, itty bitty birdie feet,
...
And me without a spoon.

Your post is great it's one of the best I have seen, hope to see more, so keep up the good work.

@ Julian:

A theory in search of a rationale, really. If it were the case that vaccination were associated with said conditions, then that could be a reason for it. In the absence of such an association, there's no cause to suppose any such explanation is necessary.

I saw this list posted on another blog:

Chick Kidney Cells, Calf Skin, African Green Monkeys:) Mouse Brain, Human Fetal Lung Tissue, Formaldehyde, Eagle Tissue, MSG, Green Dye, Aluminum, GMOs, and lots more fun stuff!

I thought it was amusing, especially the "Eagle Tissue."

"infamous cloned human diploid cells"?

So... dividing cells with a normal set of chromosomes are scary now?

The problem with "human diploid cells" is their relationship to the fetuses that were aborted back in the 1960s from which cell lines were derived after-the-fact for use in producing some vaccines.

Non-biologist or medical professional here. Sounds disgusting. Also sounds like when they give your baby a shot, what they do is wheel in a bubbling cauldron with an opaque disease stew with bits of brain and chicken feet floating around in it and hand your kid a bowlful.

What baffles me is that these people are ALSO the same who are all about their homeopathic duck hearts and other "natural" remedies. But when animals bits are used for vaccines in trace amounts, it's somehow appalling?

Would these people also object to a syringe of anti-venin made from the blood serum of poisoned horses were they to suffer from snakebite?

@evilDoug - I thought of that song too.:)

What a pile of steaming idiocy. She's playing to the purity fetish of the alties - the same people who think it's a good idea to pump huge quantities of water into their colons regularly but freak at the idea of getting a shot to prevent genuine illnesses.

I love the totally unsubtle way she implies that Jonas Salk was only in it for the money and the "mad scientist brew" reference. What an evil man! Didn't he realize everyone was better off getting their immunity from polio naturally - if they survived, of course. And so what if you ended up with permanent paralysis and/or malformed limbs? "Natural" immunity is still superior to getting it from a vaccine!

But seriously, when you're starting from a monstrously stupid and dangerous idea - that protecting people from diseases is a bad thing - there's nowhere to go but down.

Forget about how it's not uncommon to inject significant quantities of KCl directly into patients' veins when using solutions like half normal saline with 20 mEq/L KCl.

I see what the problem is. Orac knows nothing about bedside Medicine. I can't wait to see you try this on a newborn.

But seriously, when you're starting from a monstrously stupid and dangerous idea - that protecting inoculating people from with diseases is a bad thing - there's nowhere to go but down.

Do not feed the delusional disease-promoting troll.

Orac knows nothing about bedside Medicine. I can't wait to see you try this on a newborn.

Who said anything about a newborn? Being an physician who cares for adults, I was referring to a typical adult IV fluid. I do note, however, that newborns do have potassium requirements:

At age 24 hours, assuming that urine production is adequate, the infant needs 1-2 mEq/kg/d of potassium and 1-3 mEq/kg/d of sodium. Extremely premature infants who develop metabolic acidosis may benefit from sodium acetate administration instead of sodium chloride.[9] Some evidence suggests that metabolic acidosis in preterm infants is primarily due to inadequate urinary acidification by NH4+ excretion and loss of bicarbonate.[10]

During the active growth period after the first week, the need for potassium may increase to 2-3 mEq/kg/d, and the need for sodium and chloride may increase to 3-5 mEq/kg/d.

One notes that this is far more K+ than one will find in any vaccine.

Shut this thread down now before a newborn gets killed with a "not uncommon injection of significant quantities of KCl". Anyway, this thread is another "toxin gambit" gambit and Orac will do everything he can to stay away from fire. Like KCl---it burns.

Janine Roberts is well-known amongst HIV/AIDS denialists and major league woo-meisters and those who track them for her... uh.. book .*Quelle piece of work*!( both it and her)

-btw- studies about vitamin E and increased risk of prostate cancer have supplement-providers up in arms... must be another plot by BigPharma in league with BigGovernment...

also, I am currently working on a project that I should have refused and while my brain is not actually fried it is mildly toasted.
However, I shall continue nevertheless because woo ( like rust) never sleeps.

Antivaccinationists know this and take advantage of it by finding scary-sounding names of chemicals and strange or disgusting-sounding cells, animal extracts, or whatever and making them sound even more disgusting.

Unfortunately I think what you are dealing with here is the fear of the unknown. When it's the other side's turn to talk they are likely to try, with concerted effort, to conjure up the scariest, (or mysterious), words possible. And many times any term that has more syllables than people have fingers on one hand is easy to transform into weird, bizarre and suspect.

Sorry you are having to deal with it!
Dave Briggs :~)

You forgot this:

For the first 24 hours, supplemental sodium, potassium, and chloride are not usually required.

I wonder whatever happened to the "not uncommon injection of sufficient quantities of KCl" you're saying. And even if this is an adult case, I don't think a KCl mixture is a "not uncommon" let alone a primary IVF. Of course, you explicitly said "inject" not infuse.

The dreaded KCl is actually in vaccines. And, they actually infuse newborns on Digitalis with KCl in NICUs...wow.

As I recall, my newborn son was on Digitalis due to a huge atrial septal defect and was also tachypniac, which was not TTN (Transient Tachypnea-Newborn), required KCl in a peripheral IV at the rate of 0.5 - 1 mEq/kg/hour. Hypokalemia in the newborn who is in respiratory distress and is on Digitalis is quite common in the NICU.

Doh...there really is a difference in the dilution of 20 mEq KCl in half normal saline and the actual infusion rate of KCl per hour based on the infant's weight in kilograms.

Denialist Th1Th2 troll is denialist.

http://www.utmb.edu/pedi_ed/CORE/Fluids&Electyrolytes/page_10.htm

Note that half normal saline or 0.2 N saline plus 20 mEq/L KCl is an acceptable maintenance IV fluid in children.

Half normal saline plus 10-20 mEq/L KCl is also used as maintenance IV fluids in adults who are NPO.

Doh...there really is a difference in the dilution of 20 mEq KCl in half normal saline and the actual infusion rate of KCl per hour based on the infant's weight in kilograms.

Dr. Orac's order is to inject 20mEqs KCl. This is supposed to be a "not uncommon" practice. You being a nurse, are you going to carry out the said order?

Of course, Orac never said inject 20 mEq KCl. That's Thingy's massive straw man. Tell ya what. Calculate how much KCl is present in a typical 1 cc volume of the typical vaccine injection.

Is there anything Th1Th2 does not have hopelessly mixed up in her head?

@ Denice Walter:

"-btw- studies about vitamin E and increased risk of prostate cancer have supplement-providers up in arms... must be another plot by BigPharma in league with BigGovernment..."

There is also a new large study of vitamin usage in older women published in the Archives of Internal Medicine. Steve Novella on the SBM website blogged about the study yesterday:

Vitamins and Mortality

It seems that there is a small but significant increase in mortality in women who take multi-vitamins and other common OTC vitamins. There is a slight decrease in mortality for post-menopausal women who take calcium supplements.

Hmmm...I wonder if and when the internet "nutrition" experts and internet vitamin pushers will feature this study on their blogs?

I wonder if the people who freak out about potassium chloride also stay away from pomegranates (666 mg/fruit - the devil's fruit!!eleventyone!!ZOMG!!), grapefruits (318 mg/fruit), apples (195 mg/fruit), milk (617 mg/1-cup serving), not to mention bananas (as mentioned before), oranges, coconuts, cherries, strawberries, melons, kiwis, mangoes, papayas and other food sources. I mean, they should, since nearly all ingested KCl is absorbed.

(Potassium contents from NutritionData.self.com.)

Vanderbilt University just broke the world record for the number of flu shots administered in an eight-hour period: 44 healthcare workers and 300 volunteers vaccinated over 12,000 people yesterday in the schoolâs âFlulapalooza.â

http://www.newschannel5.com/story/15675922/vanderbilt-breaks-world-reco…

I suppose they had to stop when the toxins in the flu vaccine caused many of the students to walk backwards and speak in unrecognizable accents.

Delusional, uneducated, unemployable troll with an imaginary health care career needs to be "terminally disinfected" and ignored.

I declare this thread is still open.

Of course, Orac never said inject 20 mEq KCl. That's Thingy's massive straw man. Tell ya what. Calculate how much KCl is present in a typical 1 cc volume of the typical vaccine injection

Nurse lilady is quiet. Let her read the order back to you.

Dr. Orac's order is to inject 20mEqs KCl.

Wrong. He said 20mEqs KCl per liter - huge difference, especially since potassium is consumed at a fairly high rate (I battle with mild hypokalemia due to allergies - I have to track my daily intake). Note that for the few vaccines that do have KCl, it is present at a concentration of about 5 mEq/L.

Ignoring delusional uneducated, unemployable troll who is clueless about calculating the amount of KCl in a 1 cc volume of the typical vaccine injection.

Note that half normal saline or 0.2 N saline plus 20 mEq/L KCl is an acceptable maintenance IV fluid in children.

Maintennance for what? Only if you're really honest without ill motives, you'd be listing down all indications of KCl and why it is NOT a "not uncommon" practice. Of course, you will always find it convenient to use your infamous "toxin gambit" gambit.

Half normal saline plus 10-20 mEq/L KCl is also used as maintenance IV fluids in adults who are NPO.

Of course for curiosity sake, I'd ask who are those people who would be placed on NPO and why KCl is warranted. But I still don't think that a KCl mixture is the standard IVF even for those on NPO.

Somehow, Orac easily forgets being diligent that he ignores any implications for every medical intervention.

One wonders what medical credentials Thingy has. Has she ever ordered IV fluids or managed the fluid and electrolyte status of adults or children?

He said 20mEqs KCl per liter - huge difference,

Precisely and that was his order. The only thing you need to do is to find a healthy newborn and inject it with that since Orac claimed it is "not uncommon".

Now I am confused about this KCl stuff. I am sure that back in the 90s, when my beloved used to drag me round health food stores and Mind-Body-Spirit exhibitions, there were numerous old-school health-food types insisting that we must stop pouring that unhealthy salt onto our chips and switch to healthy "No-Salt"*. Which in the small print turned out to be be KCL. So is it good vibes or bad vibes, man?

* Official Disclaimer: Other crank condiments are also available.

One wonders what medical credentials Thingy has. Has she ever ordered IV fluids or managed the fluid and electrolyte status of adults or children?

No sane doctor would order an IVF to a patient where it is not warranted not to mention KCl. Do you dispute this?

One wonders, one does, how a "healthy newborn" fits the definition of "patient" in the context of Orac's original post.

Remember, this is the same Th1Th2 who believes she can determine the cause of death without ever seeing the patient.

Thingy's comments remind me of an old joke.
A speeding driver is stopped by a police officer.
Police Officer: "You were driving at 80km an hour in a 60 zone!"
Driver: "Not possible. I've only been driving for 40 minutes."
Apologies for feeding the troll.

@ Orac: I questioned Thingy many times about its education, its professional licensing and its employment in any of the health care professions. Thingy finally replied "it is none of your business".

No sane doctor would order an IVF to a patient where it is not warranted not to mention KCl. Do you dispute this?

Obvious dodge duly noted.

One wonders what medical credentials Thingy has. Has she ever ordered IV fluids or managed the fluid and electrolyte status of adults or children?

Re the Vitamins and Mortality study: Wasn't the increased mortality rate amongst supplement-takers put down to the fact that such people generally think that popping pills is a viable alternative to a sensible diet and a healthy lifestyle?
Or did I read it wrong?

One wonders, one does, how a "healthy newborn" fits the definition of "patient" in the context of Orac's original post.

To make Orac realize his own subjects (patients). It seems though he's not aware.

To make Orac realize his own subjects (patients).

This also makes one wonder how Orac, a breast cancer surgeon, would have any newborn children as patients. Truly there are curious medical practice on Htrae.

Now, Thingy, about your medical credentials...

Obvious dodge duly noted.

As I said before Orac, I am no stranger to Medicine because I am in this system.

So next time, be diligent.

I am no stranger to Medicine because I am in this system.

Such a tempting, tantalizing statement, ripe for ridicule. I'll resist and let others have the fun.

This also makes one wonder how Orac, a breast cancer surgeon, would have any newborn children as patients. Truly there are curious medical practice on

Obviously I was referring to the subject of the matter me and Orac are discussing dunce. And those are the newborns, children and adult receiving KCl and that it is "not uncommon".
Do you mind?

@ sophia8: Dr. Novella who blogged about this study yesterday stated:

The strength of this study is that it is large with a long term follow up. There are many weaknesses, however. Vitamin use was self-reported. Further, this is a correlational study only. Therefore possible confounding factors could not be controlled for. For example, it is possible that women who have an underlying health issue that increases their mortality were more likely to take vitamins or to report taking vitamins.In fact, other studies suggest there is such a âsick-user effectâ with vitamins.

IMO, people who take supplemental vitamins are concerned about their health and don't take the vitamins in lieu of a balanced diet...they are merely going to other "sources" on the internet that sell vitamins.

Do you mind?

Why, yes, I do mind how you torture and abuse simple logic, medicine, definitions and reading comprehension. But, hey, you want to keep showing off what a fool you are, who am I to stop you?

Now, about those credentials? Being "in this system" is meaningless, since it could refer to being a patient, nurse, doctor, administrator, janitor at a hospital, etc.

In Th1Th2's mind, there are only two possibilities for a foreign substance entering a human body: Necessary or dangerous. The idea that any other possibility exists never occurred to her, or the concept of the middle ground in any area.

Out of curiosity, I took a look at that nutrition data site I linked to before. Those afraid of KCl must also avoid breast feeding their newborns, since human milk contains about 15.7mg/floz.

Why, yes, I do mind how you torture and abuse simple logic, medicine, definitions and reading comprehension. But, hey, you want to keep showing off what a fool you are, who am I to stop you?

It is not polite that you are trying to move the goalpost, do you think?

Now, about those credentials? Being "in this system" is meaningless, since it could refer to being a patient, nurse, doctor, administrator, janitor at a hospital, etc.

No can do.

Th1Th2, what do you hope to gain by hiding things from us?

No can do.

Why not? What horrors will befall you if you reveal your medical credentials?

Out of curiosity, I took a look at that nutrition data site I linked to before. Those afraid of KCl must also avoid breast feeding their newborns, since human milk contains about 15.7mg/floz.

Breast milk is good. Straw man, not. You know what I'm talking about.

Oh wait. Don't tell me this is another joke.

Let's do some quick math. An infant requires 100 mL/kg/d of water and, per Orac's source, 1-2 mEq/kg/d of potassium. That means that an infant receiving KCl via IV would require (1-2 mEq KCl)/(0.1 L) = 10-20 mEq/L KCl. In the active growth period, this increases to 20-30 mEq/L KCl.

Just as the doctor ordered.

Let's do some quick math. An infant requires 100 mL/kg/d of water and, per Orac's source, 1-2 mEq/kg/d of potassium. That means that an infant receiving KCl via IV would require (1-2 mEq KCl)/(0.1 L) = 10-20 mEq/L KCl. In the active growth period, this increases to 20-30 mEq/L KCl.
Just as the doctor ordered.

One question you should have asked yourself before posting therefore avoiding getting humiliated.

Who are these infants that require IVF/KCl maintenance?

"Now, about those credentials? Being "in this system" is meaningless, since it could refer to being a patient, nurse, doctor, administrator, janitor at a hospital, etc."

Thingy is definitely "in the (mental health) system". We analyzed its imaginary education and imaginary health care career just last week and in our collective expert opinions it cycles in and out of the mental health system. It, I believe, is "back in" and has access to the internet as it refuses psychotropic medication and is need of three square meals a day and a bed to sleep in...cardboard box on the street and begging are poor substitutes for institutional protective care.

It also has a narcissistic borderline personality disorder as evidenced by its delusional self importance and pathological lying.

Who are these infants that require IVF/KCl maintenance?

From the Overview section of Orac's source:

Fluid, electrolyte, and nutrition management is important because most infants in a neonatal intensive care unit (NICU) require intravenous fluids (IVFs) and have shifts of fluids between intracellular, extracellular, and vascular compartments.

Th1Th2 is hopelessly confused yet again. Having measured literally thousands of plasma potassium levels on neonates, I can confirm that hypokalemia requiring IV KCl is not at all uncommon. In fact IV KCl is very commonly given to lots of different patients, neonates included, in amounts orders of magnitude higher than in any vaccine. You will find KCl for injection in every ICU, neonatal unit, pediatric ward and emergency room.

I am curious about one thing: Thingy, you are a liar; a proven, malicious, not very bright, not well educated liar. You lie constantly about pretty much everything.

Why should anyone treat you seriously? Why should anyone engage a stupid, hate-filled, ignorant liar?

Just curious.

You know those North Korean comic books? The ones that show the Evil American Doctor with the face mask injecting the screaming North Korean infant? I think somebody here has read one too many of them.

Hmph.

From the Overview section of Orac's source:

Thank you. No further question.

Thank you. No further question.

You could have avoided getting humiliated like this if you had bothered to read Orac's source, Thingy.

Of course, one wonders why Thingy was focusing on newborns when there are no vaccines containing KCl that are normally injected before 6 weeks (Rotarix @ 6-24 weeks).

I think Th1Th2 was trying to say that if it wasn't needed, injecting the trace amounts of KCl in a vaccine would be harmful. Because we humans would die instantly if we were taken out of a hermetically seal plastic bag.

You could have avoided getting humiliated like this if you had bothered to read Orac's source, Thingy.

You're barking up the wrong tree. Tell that to Orac instead, hence #43.

Of course, one wonders why Thingy was focusing on newborns when there are no vaccines containing KCl that are normally injected before 6 weeks (Rotarix @ 6-24 weeks).

Neither there are newborns normally injected with KCl, you're saying?

"Of course, one wonders why Thingy was focusing on newborns when there are no vaccines containing KCl that are normally injected before 6 weeks (Rotarix @ 6-24 weeks)."

Thingy just thought it would throw newborns "out there" to insult Orac...I gave an instance (my newborn son) of a neonate who needed KCl IV in the NICU because of prescribed Digitalis for his ASD.

Thingy, now using major earth moving equipment, dug itself in deeper by confusing the dilution of KCl in IV half normal saline with the infusion rate based on an infants weight in kilograms/per hour of infusion for treatment of hypokalemia.

"No further question(s)" I was wondering when it was going to hit the sidewalks again after it is released from custodial care.

Where is Thingy bot?

Th1Th2 is hopelessly confused yet again. Having measured literally thousands of plasma potassium levels on neonates, I can confirm that hypokalemia requiring IV KCl is not at all uncommon.

Straw man. Next.

In fact IV KCl is very commonly given to lots of different patients, neonates included, in amounts orders of magnitude higher than in any vaccine.

Again, straw man. KCl should only be used when indicated.

You will find KCl for injection in every ICU, neonatal unit, pediatric ward and emergency room.

Ahhh straw man and nonsense. I can also find Magnesium sulfate but it does not mean every patient is a case of ETOH.

"Neither there are newborns normally injected with KCl, you're saying?"

Is that you bot?

KCl should only be used when indicated.

Such as when someone is due for a vaccine that contains trace amounts of KCl?

That's fascinating, like a slow-motion train crash. Well, it's still about derailing.

The initial question, fully on-topic with the post, was, "is the amount of KCl injected with vaccine safe for human babies?". One argument was that it is known how much KCl a baby needs per day, and that vaccines provide less than this. So, logically, the newborn body should be able to manage the KCl amount in vaccine without any issue.
The KCl composition of a typical IV fluid for babies was quoted as extra argument. The KCl content of breast milk was also quoted, to keep the reality checks rolling.

We are now arguing (well, one of us is) about when a baby needs IV infusion. It's not anymore, "is KCl in vaccine safe?", but "is KCl in vaccine needed by the baby?".

I guess that, eventually, we will be told that babies are always born healthy, except when they are not (but in this case, it's the physician's fault, or the parents'), and, like about vaccines, healthy babies never need no KCl. Just use due diligence, whatever that means.
Oh, already done. Never mind.

As a sidenote, I did got IVF when a newborn. And a blood transfusion. Obviously, I was not an healthy baby (born too early + bacterial infection). I guess my mom should not have gone on this countryside walk on the seven month and she and the hospital staff should have spent one hour or two boiling themselves in the autoclave before delivering me. I'm sure I would have waited.

"Ahhh straw man and nonsense. I can also find Magnesium sulfate but it does not mean every patient is a case of ETOH."

Very funny Thingy bot! Would that ETOH case be a six-pack of beer...or a case of vodka, gin or whiskey?

Bot, are you inferring that Thingy's delusions are organic brain syndrome due to Korsakoff's Dementia?

Such as when someone is due for a vaccine that contains trace amounts of KCl?

Straw man unless you can convince everyone that vaccination is one method of KCl maintenance.

The interesting thing I have noted about the troll's recent posts is it's complete inability to get a joke, even sarcasm seems beyond its ability. This tells me that Thing has Aspergers. This fits in well with all of its posts and its complete failure at comprehending what it reads.

KCl should only be used when indicated.

Like with my French fries (about 1% of table salt is potassium) or my daily hot milk chocolate (see milk composition, above)?
I don't like banananana much, but these are another case of massive KCl ingestion. Are fruits not indicated in a balanced diet?

More seriously, well, yes, ideally, any medical procedure should only be used when appropriate. Who said otherwise?

Having measured literally thousands of plasma potassium levels on neonates, I can confirm that hypokalemia requiring IV KCl is not at all uncommon.

Straw man. Next.

Liar, as usual. From one of your first posts:

I wonder whatever happened to the "not uncommon injection of sufficient quantities of KCl" you're saying. And even if this is an adult case, I don't think a KCl mixture is a "not uncommon" let alone a primary IVF.

You obviously questioned Orac's assertion that KCl in IV was not uncommon. Krebiozen answered your question. Where is the strawman?

The initial question, fully on-topic with the post, was, "is the amount of KCl injected with vaccine safe for human babies?". One argument was that it is known how much KCl a baby needs per day, and that vaccines provide less than this. So, logically, the newborn body should be able to manage the KCl amount in vaccine without any issue.

Know your subjects first before you post.

The KCl composition of a typical IV fluid for babies was quoted as extra argument. The KCl content of breast milk was also quoted, to keep the reality checks rolling.

It was pretty obvious the breast milk case scenario was a straw man unless Orac uses that primarily for KCl maintenance.

@ delurked: Definitely not Asperger Syndrome. I know people with Asperger and sick troll does not have that syndrome:

-It is a pathological liar

-It cycles in and out of the mental health system

-It is delusional with grandiose delusions manifested by an imaginary career in the health care field

-It has a narcissistic personality disorder

-It gets its "jollies" by being nasty and posting here

-It may have organic brain disease from substance abuse and it has no intention of ever getting treatment

Like with my French fries (about 1% of table salt is potassium) or my daily hot milk chocolate (see milk composition, above)?
I don't like banananana much, but these are another case of massive KCl ingestion. Are fruits not indicated in a balanced diet?

That's one massive straw man you got there. Injection not ingestion. Try again.

anyone mention that 0.01% of the K in bananas is RADIOACTIVE!1!!!

(oh, palindrom did)

PLUS: i got my toxic injection 15 minutes ago--the flu shot!

no flu yet, and no autism. WIN!

Wait a minute, didn't Thingy say once in the past anything that winds up in the veins is intravenous? So how come ingesting and injecting are suddenly different now?

Who are these infants that require IVF/KCl maintenance?

Dehydrated ones. The ones that would have died in the past and still do in a lot of third world countries, where diarrheal conditions are a common cause of death in infants.

Ahhh straw man and nonsense. I can also find Magnesium sulfate but it does not mean every patient is a case of ETOH.

Mag sulfate is also used to slow labor.

KCl should only be used when indicated.

When do you think KCl is indicated?

Th1Th2, are you suggesting that unless something is strictly necessary, then it is should not be given? Why, then, are humans not killed from all the other things we get exposed to?

rob @79 -- Not only is it radioactive, but it will take many BILLIONS of years before it's not radioactive any more!

I think we should all completely avoid potassium.

Oh, wait ...

You obviously questioned Orac's assertion that KCl in IV was not uncommon. Krebiozen answered your question. Where is the strawman?

This: "it's not uncommon to inject significant quantities of KCl directly into patients' veins when using solutions like half normal saline with 20 mEq/L KCl."---Orac

@ rob: I don't think anyone mentioned prescribed potassium taken every day when non-potassium-sparing diuretics are prescribed for hypertension.

Of course KCl in IV fluids are used for electrolyte imbalances in the preterm neonate, infants with respiratory distress syndrome, patent ductus arteriosus, necrotizing enterocolitis and metabolic acidosis.

When is the troll going to calculate the amount of KCl in a 1 cc vaccine injection given to children...Orac requested that Thingy provide that calculation. Oh, I forgot when it is called out about its "knowledge" base, education, professional licenses, employment in the health care field, it changes the subject, states "it's none of your business" or simply states "no more question(s)".

Thingy should try to get a "guest columnist" spot on an internet anti-vax site where its circular reasoning, irrational "theories" and its grammar mangling skills would be an asset.

"This: "it's not uncommon to inject significant quantities of KCl directly into patients' veins when using solutions like half normal saline with 20 mEq/L KCl."---Orac"

Troll is deliberately being obtuse here...by interpreting Orac's plainly written statement of KCl IN SOLUTION as being IV Push.

Try again Troll!

I have to say, I really liked it better when the troll was being ignored effectively. She has nothing useful to add to this discussion and clearly doesn't know what she's talking about (and the obfuscation about her knowledge makes that especially clear; an intellectually honest person would declare any relevant education or a lack thereof).

A Christian Cynic: You are of course correct and I will not address any more of the Troll's comments....but I was having so much fun with the Thing.

Once again, this just proves that he/she/it is too far gone to have anything even approaching a rational discussion.

The KCl composition of a typical IV fluid for babies was quoted as extra argument. The KCl content of breast milk was also quoted, to keep the reality checks rolling.

It was pretty obvious the breast milk case scenario was a straw man unless Orac uses that primarily for KCl maintenance.

One of the primary functions of breast milk, formula, and KCl via IVF is to provide K+ maintenance in infants. So it's not a strawman.

Original vaccinations were contrived by using the infected matter from another human being and introducing it into the body.

No, Ms. moore, the original vaccinations (20 years before Jennings) "transferred pustular material from the cow".

@ lilady: yes, *l'idiot sans pareil* also ranted about the women / vitamin study (see progressiveradionetwork;10/13/11; noon): all part of woo-meisters' plan to fight any legislation that makes it harder to shill supplements US/UK/EU. Expect to hear more.

@ All: It might be productive to simultaneously disregard the you-know-what and use these opportunities to address people who interested and capable of learning. You know of whom I speak...

Oh, unseen and unheard lurkers
Silent and mysterious are your secret ways
You glimmer and shine in the deepening darkness
That lurks behind the glowing screen
In the icy labyrinthine caves of cyberspace
Forever watching, listening, knowing:
Let me sing your praise and be your Champion
For you are worthy!

As usual I can't resist playing around with a few numbers. Having dug around a number of vaccine package inserts, the largest amount of KCl I can find in any vaccine is 0.1 mg per shot. This is equivalent to 1.13 microEq, or about the same amount as you would find in 0.25 ml of serum from a living person, even a newborn (normal serum potassium is about 4 mEq/L or 4 µEq/ml).

Clearly claiming that injecting someone with that much KCl is somehow damaging is idiotic. That doesn't stop people from claiming just this on several websites.

One of the primary functions of breast milk, formula, and KCl via IVF is to provide K+ maintenance in infants. So it's not a strawman.

Again, it's an outright straw man. The gist of the argument is for Orac to prove that KCl IV administration is a "not uncommon" routine amongst newborns, children and adults. And please, don't move the goalpost.

Insane troll - you are a complete idiot.

Troll is deliberately being obtuse here...by interpreting Orac's plainly written statement of KCl IN SOLUTION as being IV Push.
Try again Troll!

Now the nurse is talking. The question is will you carry out Orac's order? I'd like to hear about your nursing implications, if any, in the administration of KCl.

Hah, Kreb! I was just doing the same thing. My numbers are substantially similar - 0.2 mg of KCL per shot of Rotarix, which I worked out as about 5 microEq (conversion for KCl: 1 mEq = 39.1 mg). Thus, a shot of Rotarix given to a typical 6-week-old infant (5 kg) would represent no more than 0.1% of the RDA of potassium.

How about this - you answer the question on your credentials & educational background, then we might entertain a question from you.

Until then, consider this a blanket ban on responding to this & anything else you have to say about anything.

Thus, a shot of Rotarix given to a typical 6-week-old infant (5 kg) would represent no more than 0.1% of the RDA of potassium.

Of course that would be a straw man since you're implying that vaccines contain sub-optimal RDA of potassium. But who does inject KCl to meet their RDA via vaccination? You tell me.

"Fear of the Invisible" is a great book title. I think it would make an excellent title for, say, a book written by a psychologist about unsubstantiated fears, scare tactics, and risk assessment. Partnered with an MD for medicine/health specific stuff, maybe.

Remember: you can't copyright titles...

With all the,switching, baiting and dodging our dokkta thing does here, it must get awfully dizzy. Is it any wonder its posts are so confused,incomprehensible and, for the majority, irrelevant.

I am just amused at how she uses terms of logic without any clue as to what the terms actually mean.

Take, for instance, my breast milk example. The original post discussed how some who invoke the toxin gambit portray potassium chloride as something used for evil, something that causes all manner of harm, implying that any exposure must therefore be bad. My comment on breast milk was addressing that approach. It logically follows, that if someone thinks that the potassium chloride in a vaccine is harmful, then they must also think that breast feeding is harmful, due to the much higher levels of potassium chloride in human milk. No straw man argument at all.

I really don't get why Thingy abuses logic and language so. I mean, what did they ever do to her? There should be some sort of protective relocation program to save them from the regular thrashings Thingy dishes out.

I am wondering if anyone else is reminded of ultra-femininsts from a few (well quite a few) years ago who were of the opinion that all acts of intercourse between men and women were rape. It didn't matter if it was consensual, the thought of the man inserting into to the woman was de facto rape. Thingy's objection to all substances administered reminds me of this over the top view. Any 'breach' of the skin is tantamount to soiling the whole body. It doesn't matter if it is a neonate with multiple problems or a routine vaccination. You have broken the barrier and therefore ruined the child/adult but mostly the child. In 'le fou's' world that must never happen........

Thingy uses the term "straw man" an awful lot without truly understanding what it means. She must have absorbed those seven letters in Oracs blogs enough to think that it sounded smart, and would be a great way to shut down critics.

Her insane rambling would be funny if the obvious lack of education wasn't so pitiful.

lilady @80: Thank you for the checklist but it is not needed. A few minutes (seconds) reading this person's comments shows she need not be taken seriously.

Hi Lilady :)

You have failed to convince me that Thing does not suffer from asperger syndrome. Narcissistic personality disorder does not seem to fit the picture. I think Thing knows it has asperger syndrome and blames vaccines after all autism spectrum disorders and vaccines are all the rage in Woomania. That would explain its obsession. It also would explain its inability to see humor. Apart from that schizophrenia could be an explanation.

I think we should leave Thing alone as this is not fair. It reminds me of the school bullies picking on the kid with a disability in the schoolyard :(

Yes I know Things remarks on disability but I consider that denial. Lets ignore it again it seems the ethical thing to do.

I wonder if Thingy knows what the functions of the kidney are. One of them being the regulation of electrolyte balance in our body. 0.1% of the RDA of potassium extra in our body isn't going to cause a system-wide crash - it'll just be filtered out by the kidney.
The "K+ can cause heart failure" bit is true - but only if a large amount of Kcl is administered as a bolus dose. At the same time what these morons fail to mention is how important Kcl is to the body. Hypokalaemia can itself be fatal.
Following this ridiculous logic, I guess dihydrogenmonoxide too is a dangerous chemical considering that inhalation of it can lead to death. It is also found in large amounts in inflammed tissue and fills up in the peritoneal cavity when a patient has liver cirrhosis. Oh the horror!

@T-reg

Don't forget that ingesting large amounts of DHMO can lead to hyponatremia. I recall hearing of at least one death from DHMO toxicity due to hyponatremia.

Wait a minute, didn't Thingy say once in the past anything that winds up in the veins is intravenous?

[Citation needed]

Who are these infants that require IVF/KCl maintenance?

Dehydrated ones. The ones that would have died in the past and still do in a lot of third world countries, where diarrheal conditions are a common cause of death in infants.

In short, only as indicated, no? I know what you're thinking. If we are dealing with a diarrhea vaccine, you'll be singing a different tune. Like this,

Dehydrated Unvaccinated ones. The ones that would have died in the past and still do in a lot of third world countries, where diarrheal conditions are a common cause of death in infants.

And it fits, doesn't it? I've heard that song before. But this time a different version.

Mag sulfate is also used to slow labor.

Again, as needed.

KCl should only be used when indicated.

When do you think KCl is indicated?

When you have evidence to support its need.

Wait a minute, didn't Thingy say once in the past anything that winds up in the veins is intravenous?

[citation needed]

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/04/stop_cbs_from_airing_anti-vac…Also, this just proves something about Th1Th2's derangement: She still believes that if it isn't needed, it must be dangerous. The concept of "harmless" eludes her.

@ Delurked:

While we shouldn't try to diagnose anyone- especially over the internet- sometimes more serious problems display symptoms similar to autism's: this is noted in the DSM along the lines of "autism- *if not* explained by SMI". SMI also has a variable course. I suspect *that* or (much less likely) someone playing around ( altho' if the latter, wouldn't the perseveration point to some sort of problem? Really, who would keep up like this? Come on!) At any rate, we wouldn't want to reinforce its activity either way.

And thank you for de-lurking: saying something of value and illustrating my point about lurkers.

My comment on breast milk was addressing that approach. It logically follows, that if someone thinks that the potassium chloride in a vaccine is harmful, then they must also think that breast feeding is harmful, due to the much higher levels of potassium chloride in human milk. No straw man argument at all.

Straw man. The last time I checked vaccines were not classified as baby foods.

Th1Th2, why do you keep using the words "straw man"? Here's a simply self-test. When you want to use a word or phrase, ask yourself "Do I know what this word or phrase means?" If the answer is no, then you do not know what that word or phrase means.

The interesting thing I have noted about the troll's recent posts is it's complete inability to get a joke, even sarcasm seems beyond its ability.

You mean this?

Don't forget that ingesting large amounts of DHMO can lead to hyponatremia. I recall hearing of at least one death from DHMO toxicity due to hyponatremia.

Could we please ignore the most idiotic troll in the world? It gets tiresome scrolling past its inanity.

Gray Falcon,

As usual, did you even read what you just posted? Where is the word "intravenous" from that link? I might have missed that.

Take note on Th1Th2's dishonesty. It said "injected directly into the bloodstream", which is the same thing as "intravenous": http://www.thefreedictionary.com/intravenous. Th1Th2 uses whatever definitions she thinks of, it never occurs to her to check to make sure she's right.

Take note on Th1Th2's dishonesty. It said "injected directly into the bloodstream", which is the same thing as "intravenous":

The question being asked was this,

Thingy: What vaccines are injected directly into the bloodstream? Please provide citations.

I gave two examples at that time with citations of course, namely:

1. Intravenous pertussis vaccine
2. Intravenous typhoid vaccine

Well, there's another one coming soon,

3. Intravenous malaria vaccine.

So what's bothering you Gray Falcon? Failure to thrive?

Now it's pretty obvious that you're too dishonest to have a discussion with. Goodbye.

@ Denice Walter: Actually I nailed this troll for the nasty useless, uneducated, unemployable delusional, semantics-playing troll it is.

I also provided ample examples why a newborn might require KCl in IV solution, including a very personal experience with my newborn son during the 10 weeks he was in the NICU.

Orac's statement is straightforward:

"Forget about how it's not uncommon to inject significant quantities of KCl directly into patients' veins when using solutions like half normal (0.45 %) saline with 20 mEq/L KCl."

Yet the troll, playing its sick game of semantics fixates on the word "inject", conveniently omitting the rest of Orac's statement about half normal (0.45) saline solution.

Further along it deliberately or accidentally confuses the rate of infusion with the amount of (20 mEq/L) of KCl...all for the purpose of derailing this blog.

Orac is not a neonatologist nor a pediatrician...he is a cancer surgeon. I am not a pediatrics or a NICU nurse specialist. We both had rotations through the pediatrics department as part of our education and training in our professions. We both are able to understand the use of isotonic, hypotonic and hypertonic solutions in the clinical area as well as serum electrolyte imbalances such hypokalemia.

Other posters here who are well-versed in human physiology and lab technology have weighed in as well about electrolyte imbalances...and yet troll deliberately fixates on its "derailing word of the day" "inject".

It is a sick game played by this delusional troll who cycles in and out of the mental health system and is on the dole as it is totally anti-social, devoid of any work ethic and devoid of any skills for the most menial job. It is a scam artist of the first order.

I will end this posting the same way I ended another posting at the Ugh Troll months ago:

"If your mommy told you that the reason for your lack of education, your lack of skills, your lack of gainful employment in any field, your lack of any social skills and your totally useless life is because you were "vaccine injured"....she lied."

Okay insano-troll, if I remember correctly, both of those examples were proven to be demonstratably false (either not for humans or from about 80 years ago).

So - anything current (and by current, I mean right now)?

PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT:

Ladies and gentlemen,

Please be advised that the railway bridge on the Orac's Blog line has a confirmed infestation of trolls.

Passengers are reminded not to feed or otherwise engage with the trolls under any circumstance. Trolls are a minor annoyance left to themselves but can grow to be a serious nuisance if fed, up to the point of derailing passing trains of commentary.

Thank you and enjoy your trip.

Since I can't comment on public health issues...

On the other hand, minced monkey kidney and mashed bird embryo sure do sound tasty.

I have it on good authority that Lord Draconis ordered several of these on pita bread duiring his His last visit to Cafe Del Sol.

Thingy should check the wikipedia article on "straw man". But then again, given how little it comprehends without a twisted interpretation of facts, this recommendation is futile. Nevertheless, it'll be interesting to see if the irony dawns upon it or not. Straw man is how you would class it's own arguments.
The other irony is: thingy assumes the name Th1 Th2 which are important arms of the adaptive immune system and yet this troll understands naught regarding immunization and vaccines. After all, they are firmly rooted in concepts of immunology.

"last time I checked, vaccines were not classified as baby food". This is "straw man" because you are presenting an argument which resembles the original to some extent but is definitely an entirely different topic, altogether.

You are questioning the safety Kcl in vaccines.

It has been addressed as follows:
The diet of a healthy child, and IV fluids given to a sick child (to maintain potassium levels), have a much higher content of potassium but it does no harm.
Hence if a VERY small fraction of that potassium is injected as a part of the vaccine administered, it is but a drop in the ocean and really DOES NOTHING TO UPSET the balance.
I added to that saying that the kidney takes care of those minor fluctuations.
Thus, WHETHER REQUIRED OR NOT, the Kcl present in vaccines is too little to cause any harm.
The last statement, logically derived from all the preceding statements, answers your ORIGINAL concerns regarding safety of KCl in vaccines.
I don't see how the statement,"vaccines not being baby food" has anything to do with that. Thereby making it a straw man (by the definition of the phrase).

Addressing a delusion that you sCAMsters and anti-vaxxers have - you keep quoting nonsense about how natural remedies are better for your system. But, where the "natural" system matters the most, you tend to forget about "natural".
In this case, you just can't consider that the body has an amazing "Natural" system to maintain its own balance, i.e. Homoeostasis. A drop-in-the-ocean amount of extra KCl aint gonna kill anyone because of the body's "Natural" mechanisms to deal with it. Very convenient to forget about "Natural" where it ACTUALLY matters.

@delurked - I've worked with unmedicated schizophrenic inpatients.

Thing's inability to gauge tone, her habit of inferring things that are never said, and complete lack of awareness of how delusional she is are all staggeringly familiar. She seems to be engaging in the fairly common SMI habit of running everything. through her own internal translation metric, and then raging at everyone else because the translation makes no sense.

It's sad really, but where I'm from we can't force people to stay medicated unless they're on a Section 2/initial three months of a Section 3 for being a danger to themselves or others. At least if she's playing here she's not harassing anyone in person.

As annoying as it is to us, it must be far worse for her if she has any lucidity at all. I knew plenty of people who were fine while undergoing treatment, fine if they were completely delusional, but suffered terribly when they were straddling the two states. I hope she has a good support system.

Also, thingy, does it occur to you that the toxicity of a substance is dose dependent? The dose of KCl in a vaccine is NOT toxic.

Regarding you ban on administering substances (KCl, in particular) without indication:

When you swallow pills (even the herbal kind), is water indicated? Why do you take a gulp of water along with it? You can just as easily swallow without the water.
Do you actually check your serum potassium levels before you eat bananas or pomegranate (fruits high in potassium)? Why do you take that potassium when there is no indication for it?

The answer to that is:
they are harmless, especially at that dose, and if you don't have hyperkalaemia or renal failure. So it doesn't matter if you receive that extra, tiny amount of UNINDICATED KCl. The same goes for a tiny amount of (otherwise) unindicated KCl in vaccines.

And, before you start nonsense about ingested vs injected - as far as potassium is concerned, it really doesn't matter because
a) it is not metabloized in the liver
b) and neither is the intestine impermeable to it.
Thus, whether injected or ingested, the whole amount ends up in your blood and from there in the intracellular compartment.
The only difference possible is the rate at which it enters your blood. However, considering the extremely small dose present in vaccines, even a bolus IV dose CANNOT produce any SIGNIFICANT electrolyte imbalances. The very very small amount of fluctuation that it will produce will almost immediately be neutralized by the kidneys.

@ Composer 99: I have some comments stuck in moderation about this particularly odious troll, its "game" and its word semantics...today's blog derailing fixation is on the word "inject".

@ Rene Najera: I expect that Lord Draconis will be weighing in shortly to discuss meal planning and preparation using vaccine culture media. I actually like my minced monkey kidney and mashed bird embryo served as hors d'oevrves...and my entree of choice is baked spinal columns served with a side of chopped aborted fetuses..."organically" grown of course.

It is difficult to find these "organic" ingredients...I even looked into Joe Mercola's organic food website. I'll have to ask my daughter who shops at the Whole Foods/Whole Paycheck market for availability of these ingredients

"last time I checked, vaccines were not classified as baby food". This is "straw man" because you are presenting an argument which resembles the original to some extent but is definitely an entirely different topic, altogether.

The original argument is about the indication of KCl found in vaccines ( which Orac failed to support) as a necessary requirement for newborns, children and adults. Arguing and comparing this using food sources is a straw man.

@ Rene:

Surely that fellow has some interesting food choices ( I wonder what natural foods nutritionists would comment about His Lordship's diet?)- reminds me a bit of those menus where the English trans of the Chinese is something like "Big Leg", "Gizzards Deluxe", or "Beef Penis Stew" ( actual items @ NYC place).
Chez Draconis, I had to pass on the "ladies fingers with zabaglione".....don't ask

Sincerely,
DW

Okay insano-troll, if I remember correctly, both of those examples were proven to be demonstratably false (either not for humans or from about 80 years ago).

You must be referring to smallpox and cowpox.

The initial argument was that the trace amounts of KCl found in vaccines would not cause any harm. Comparing it to the larger quantities found in food is a perfectly valid comparison. "The indication of KCl found in vaccines ( which Orac failed to support) as a necessary requirement for newborns, children and adults" is a strawman argument.
@DW: Now I'm thinking of going out for Malaysian sometime. They actually have "Crispy Pork Intestines" on the menu, but I don't think any Anglo has had the courage to order them.

@th1th2:
"Shut this thread down now before a newborn gets killed with a "not uncommon injection of significant quantities of KCl". Anyway, this thread is another "toxin gambit" gambit and Orac will do everything he can to stay away from fire. Like KCl---it burns."
That was your first clear statement regarding your concerns about KCl. (your first post on this thread was just a vague comment doubting Orac's clinical knowledge).
Nowhere in that statement do you express your concern for the indication of KCl found in vaccines. It rather betrays a concern regarding its safety in vaccines - "shut this thread before a new born gets killed....."

Your concern nonsense comes in response to the replies against the above fallacy. That "concern" just comes across as a diversion from your original fallacious statement. This by definition is again "straw man".

You are having a written debate with people. Do you even fail to realize that every word you express is chronologically recorded here?

The diet of a healthy child, and IV fluids given to a sick child (to maintain potassium levels), have a much higher content of potassium but it does no harm.

Again, it's a straw man since you're implying that the KCl found in vaccines is a physiologic need and is of equal importance at least based from your examples.

Again, it's a straw man since you're implying that the KCl found in vaccines is a physiologic need and is of equal importance at least based from your examples.

No, we're implying that it's completely harmless based from our examples. Do you know what "harmless" means?

You are basically quote-mining, you idiot. Read that WHOLE paragraph and understand the context.
Even for a non-native speaker of English who has reasonable intelligence, what I have written can not be interpreted the way in which you have.
Forget about a basic science education. You seem to lack even basic comprehension skills.

Hence if a VERY small fraction of that potassium is injected as a part of the vaccine administered, it is but a drop in the ocean and really DOES NOTHING TO UPSET the balance.

You did nothing to justify the need for KCl found in vaccines. That's why you're using other exogenous sources to make a point.

@Thingy:
Read the WHOLE thing. Wow! you don't even understand the meaning of the word "WHOLE"!

My husband has tried many of these ethnic "exotic" foods including the "Jewish soul food" stuffed derma a/k/a "Kishka" (gut,intestine, sausage in Yiddish) which is kosher beef intestine. The stuffing varies but it is basically matzo cracker meal with celery, carrots and onions mixed with rendered kosher chicken fat and a variety of spices...heavy on the paprika for eastern European tastes. Other versions now use an edible cellulose or collagen for the casing.

The mucosal tissue of porcine intestine and bovine lungs are used to manufacture heparin used in the hospital for treatment of DVTs and during interventional cardiac procedures (ablations, stent placement). LMWH (low molecular weight heparin) a longer-acting heparin is self-injected by the patient at home while transitioning to Coumadin anti-coagulant maintenance medication.

@ DW: Surely you have heard of "prairie oysters" available and considered a delicacy in the western United States?

No, we're implying that it's completely harmless based from our examples. Do you know what "harmless" means?

You're basically arguing from ignorance and you know that, don't you?

@thingy:
"You're basically arguing from ignorance and you know that, don't you?"
Ha ha ha... Do you see the irony in that statement? "Ignorance"! That along with a "lack of comprehension" and "no credentials" pretty much sums you up.

@T-reg: Not to mention "extreme arrogance". Remember what I pointed out in #41, where she diagnosed a death as iatrogenic from a short video clip she saw online. If one is to believe her, nobody ever died before modern medicine was developed.

You did nothing to justify the need for KCl found in vaccines.

Straw man. The issue was not whether the presence of KCl in the vaccine was justified but whether it would cause harm.

However, I will address your straw man. The presence of KCl in certain live attenuated vaccines (Rotarix, one flu vaccine and the various chicken-pox/shingles vaccines) are for K+ "maintenance" of the vaccine itself. More accurately, the attenuated viruses require certain environmental conditions, one of which is the right pH balance. KCl is chosen because it makes the composition of the vaccine very similar to the composition of human blood serum.

Note that this is also why KCl is used in eye drops.

Now I'm thinking of going out for Malaysian sometime. They actually have "Crispy Pork Intestines" on the menu, but I don't think any Anglo has had the courage to order them.

Sounds like sausage without the stuffing. I readily eat sausages with natural casing, how much worse could "crisp pork intestines" be?

Straw man. The issue was not whether the presence of KCl in the vaccine was justified but whether it would cause harm.

You're late. Someone already claimed that the KCl found in vaccines is harmless. Do you dispute this?

The presence of KCl in certain live attenuated vaccines (Rotarix, one flu vaccine and the various chicken-pox/shingles vaccines) are for K+ "maintenance" of the vaccine itself.

You are by far worse than Orac's fallacy in #17.

Th1Th2, could you please clarify what you're trying to say?

Th1Th2, could you please clarify what you're trying to say?

You're asking me for clarification? May be it's you who needs to explain your claim that the KCl found in vaccines is "completely harmless".

My comments about Thingy are still in moderation, but for anyone who thinks this is a harmless misinformed person suffering from some sort of developmental disability (Asperger Syndrome)...it isn't.

Here is a "memorable" Thingy posting from Orac's blog reporting the death of an infant from pertussis "The cost of the anti-vaccine movement" (June 13, 2011):

For the cretin who calls Kailis' death "iatrogenic". I happen to know that that poor little baby boy was on an ECMO for 3 weeks, you cruel, callous bastard. Roslynd and Jay cried by his side that whole time. Still they weep.

Oh the ECMO, I know that. That's the last Hail Mary to fix, no not the child's life, but this horrible medical blunder. Yup, these stupid doctors couldn't even make a proper diagnosis, couldn't even treat a cold yet they intervene with tons of procedures so what would you expect, a sour broth. In short they know NOTHING. They are the modern-day barbarians. Yeah, make ECMO the first line of treatment for anyone who has cold. Stupidity kills.

Posted by: Th1Th2 | June 15, 2011 4:19 PM

Thingy is a pathetic delusional, uneducated, unemployable, devoid of any human compassion, troll.

Someone already claimed that the KCl found in vaccines is harmless. Do you dispute this?

Of course I don't dispute that someone - namely Orac in the original post - claimed that the KCl found in vaccines is harmless. In fact, as anyone who reads my comment can see, I was specifically pointing that out. Why were you disputing that he claimed this? Why were you claiming that he said something he never said?

@lilady: In case anyone's wondering, Th1Th2 thought the child had a cold because of a five-second section of a video clip on that same page.@W. Kevin Vicklund: I can only guess, but Th1Th2 is probably trying to claim that by keeping the attenuated virus stable, the KCl is responsible for "infecting" the child. And by "infecting", she means "breaking her standards of ritual purity."

Of course I don't dispute that someone - namely Orac in the original post - claimed that the KCl found in vaccines is harmless.

And at what basis do you support this claim?

@Grey Falcon:
Ignorance actually breeds this arrogance.

@Thingy:
" May be it's you who needs to explain your claim that the KCl found in vaccines is "completely harmless"."

So thingy, you still couldn't read my "WHOLE" comment? Still trying to figure out what "WHOLE" means? Once you figure out that insurmountable step, you will have to figure out how you are going to read all what I have written. Then comprehension. Whoa! your fingers will be too sweaty (from all the effort) to be able to type.
All your "Concerns" over KCl in vaccines have pretty much been answered. It's all out there in plain sight.

Too bad you don't understand what "WHOLE" means. Too bad comprehension is not one of your strong points. Too bad you don't have a basic education in science. And too bad you have no credentials.

Let's see you stop trying to use your smoke and mirrors (which, unsurprisingly, are way too clumsy) tactics.

But then again, outside of your attempted smoke and mirrors, there isn't any substance left of you.

@ Gray Falcon:

"In case anyone's wondering, Th1Th2 thought the child had a cold because of a five-second section of a video clip on that same page."

In case anyone's wondering, Th1Th2 hung its arguments on the child having a cold because of a five-second section of the full 15 minute video clip on that same page. The video showed pictures of the beautiful infant whose death was senseless and due to the anti-vaxers in Australia. The video also contained interviews with the leaders of the anti-vax movement and showed their activities of harassing the parents of the baby, after he died.

T-reg,

For someone who's arguing from ignorance you sure have a lot to say.

The idea that injecting tiny quantities of an essential nutrient is harmful is mind-bogglingly stupid. I am surprised that even Th1Th2 is trying to support it.

@Thingy:
I can back up my statements from sound and established principles in physics, chemistry, physiology, biochemistry, pharmacology, toxicology.

I can give my credentials.

You can do neither of these.
You on the other hand can only claim that I am ignorant. You are constantly avoiding my asking you to read what I have posted in entirety. You are quote mining and using my statements out of context to prove yourself - not really the mark of a well informed person.

Start with grade school, chum. When you get the required comprehension skills, move up.

The idea that injecting tiny quantities of an essential nutrient is harmful is mind-bogglingly stupid. I am surprised that even Th1Th2 is trying to support it.

Straw man. You're implying that tiny quantities of KCl found in vaccines are an essential source of potassium therefore vaccine use is justifiable. Orac fell hard on that same assumption.

@Thingy:
I can back up my statements from sound and established principles in physics, chemistry, physiology, biochemistry, pharmacology, toxicology.

I've been waiting for that since Orac's infamous fallacy.

OK, why didn't you just say in the first place that you think vaccines are unneccessary and therefore any ingredient in it as well????? Holy crap, you are the most mind boggling stupid example of a troll that I have ever had the misfortune of reading. Really, you just can't say anything simply and directly.
Oh, except for 'straw man' and 'infection promoter'.

OK, why didn't you just say in the first place that you think vaccines are unneccessary and therefore any ingredient in it as well?????

Don't blame me instead blame Orac for his disingenuous attempt in #17 by asserting the KCl found in vaccines is an essential requirement for newborns, children and adults.

Straw man.

Liar.

You're implying that tiny quantities of KCl found in vaccines are an essential source of potassium therefore vaccine use is justifiable.

Liar.

Orac fell hard on that same assumption.

Liar.

chris@9: My first thought with "Eagle tissues" was perhaps "Eagle Medium" as in Dulbeccoâs modiï¬ed Eagle's medium (DMEM), a common cell-culture media. Which is not, of course, made *of* eagles, but rather was made by a guy *named* Eagle. If that were the derivation of "eagle tissue", it would just emphasise how rediculous the whole "scary things!" argument is.

The idea that injecting tiny quantities of an essential nutrient is harmful is mind-bogglingly stupid. I am surprised that even Th1Th2 is trying to support it.

Why, has anything else he/she argued in the past gave you an impression that there is some sort of stupidity ceiling? I recall Thing claiming that infants do not require tetanus vaccination because they instinctively avoid soil in favor of concrete sidewalks. I'm surprised after all this time people still engage him/her, but I suspect that is for others' benefit.

Insano-troll didn't even understand what Orac wrote in #17.

I recall Thing claiming that infants do not require tetanus vaccination because they instinctively avoid soil in favor of concrete sidewalks.

[Citation needed]

Insano-troll didn't even understand what Orac wrote in #17.

Like?

What do you mean, blame Orac? You're the one saying it is completely unnecessary (but omit to state that you think all vaccines at any time and all of the ingredients in the vaccine are completely unneccessary). I don't have any idea why you are blaming Orac for anything you say. Own up to your own ideas, lady. Lay them out nice and clear so all us infection promoters can understand just how awesome you are
x(

@166

like the whole bloody post stupid

whoops look who is stupid now :) Must get some glasses.

I meant

@165

Like the whole bloody post stupid.

I recall Thing claiming that infants do not require tetanus vaccination because they instinctively avoid soil in favor of concrete sidewalks.

[Citation needed]

The interwebz remember all:

Why should I let the child walk on the dirt when there is a dry concrete pavement next to it? A toddler would readily know which is the safe path to take even without the knowledge of C. tetani, but I am just fascinated how parents are offering very poor choices (or lack thereof).

@ Gray Falcon
@ lilady
I have heard of all of these... uh, *delicacies* you mention, and in my case, "hearing" is about as far as I want it to go.
But to be perfectly fair, people who have ancestors/ relatives from the British Isles *and* Mittel- and Eastern Europe shouldn't speak too loudly as they like to make sausages with blood. Norwegians eat lutefisk- cured in lye; Southern Europeans like to eat tentacle-y things that many might consider bait.
Come to think of it, those sound *worse* than that Chinese menu.

I recall Thing claiming that infants do not require tetanus vaccination because they instinctively avoid soil in favor of concrete sidewalks.

[Citation needed]

The interwebz remember all:

So it's down to just repeating random phrases that it's picked up, eh? Once it obsessively latched onto "hypotheticals," I got the sense that this was coming--out of ideas for sweet, sweet attention? Just pull down your pants.

Igor,

Why, has anything else he/she argued in the past gave you an impression that there is some sort of stupidity ceiling?

Not really, but something in me rebels at the thought that she is beyond reason completely, despite evidence to the contrary.

DW:

Norwegians eat lutefisk- cured in lye;

After soaking and rinsing, lutefisk really does not have much taste. I kind of like it.

By the way, we call cooked pig intestines: chitlins. I have mostly seen them fried.

[Citation needed]

Interestingly, I was going to link to the applicable blog post (possibly blog posts), but naively thought that statements based on personal knowledge will not be challenged by the one who rarely cites any authority at all for many ridiculous claims. This will have be the first and the last time I waste any effort on such nonsense. Ask and ye shall receive:

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/some-flu-vaccine-updates/…

Th1Th2: Why should I let the child walk on the dirt when there is a dry concrete pavement next to it? A toddler would readily know which is the safe path to take even without the knowledge of C. tetani, but I am just fascinated how parents are offering very poor choices (or lack thereof).

Kevin beat me to it. Unfortunately, I just realized that Th1Th2 never said this precise word sequence, "Infants do not require tetanus vaccination because they instinctively avoid soil in favor of concrete sidewalks." Moreover, given Thing's penchant for redefining certain words, it is possible everything Thing states has some alternate interpretation imperceptible to most people. So, technically Thing never said anything of sorts. Silly me.

The "toxin gambit gambit." That's about it. LMAO.

a- nonymous, I'm still waiting for you to actually answer some questions, but you keep running away!

@Thingy:
"I've been waiting for that since Orac's infamous fallacy."

Seriously? Cuz the explanations based on the said principles has already been given. Just go back and read my comment - the "WHOLE" of it.
Interesting how you ask for an explanation and when given an explanation you can not refute, you just pretend that the explanation does not exist.
It's a written argument and it's still up there.
Ha ha..... moron.

The idea that injecting tiny quantities of an essential nutrient is harmful is mind-bogglingly stupid. I am surprised that even Th1Th2 is trying to support it.

Straw man. You're implying that tiny quantities of KCl found in vaccines are an essential source of potassium therefore vaccine use is justifiable. Orac fell hard on that same assumption.

Get some basic comprehension skills, chum. Like I said, even a non-native speaker of English with a little intelligence will not interpret those statements the way in which you have.

And since KCl in vaccines is not an essential source of potassium, I will stick to eating bananas. And since the potassium in bananas is not an essential source of conferred immunity, i will stick to vaccines.

I really tried to find a reference to KCl used and deemed safe in vaccines as an essential source. And to avoid future confusion, any H2O in vaccines is also safe despite the fact that it's not there as an essential source of hydration. In fact, I have never received a vaccine to cure my thirst.

"Mashed monkey kidneys and bird embryos"

Sounds like some kind of English breakfast!

If I understand it correctly, thingy thinks:
a. KCl is harmfull, and thus doesn't belong in vaccines.
or
b. KCl is not needed in vaccines.
a. Is not true, because several people mentioned food containing KCl and the fact people need it.
b. Kevin Vicklund addressed to this in post 142.

So what does thingy not understand?

So what does thingy not understand?

How long have you got?

I have to admit, I gave Thingy a lot of credit for the "'toxin gambit' gambit," at least until she made use of the "'straw man fallacy' fallacy."

Here is a relevant anecdote ( totally true):
T has an adult child (P) with an SMI: T has spent huge amounts of time trying to disabuse P of his "set ideas" (so have MDs, MSWs, et al) to no avail. T also is friends with a guy (M) who has "odd" beliefs: ESP, reincarnation, astrology, aliens. M is not MI, has a good education, work history, and lives independently. T has tried to convnce M that none of these beliefs have any basis in reality. T is really frustrated with both fellows. This has gone on for many years. " How do you change their minds?", I am asked.

Well, people believe unreasonable things for reasons: P has an SMI, accompanied by a particular family history of MI (maternal), and life experiences filtred through this lens. M's parents were well-educated for their cohort but his mother had mystical leanings; he identified more with her than with his father. He has met many women he dated via the new age mystique network.

I point out that T is vaguely Christian: could I, an atheist, get very far in convincing him to come on over to the dark side? So T:P,M :: D:T. And sure, my beliefs come with their own history. Counselling people deals with changing unrealistic beliefs that hurt the client in some way; this doesn't work with SMI. P's delusions get quieter if he has the right meds; M if questioned will admit that perhaps there really are *no* aliens- no movement on astrology though. His beliefs come infused with emotional power of his good relationship with his mother.

If we try to change woo-ish beliefs in the *general* public we should keep in mind that they may be based on a lack of education but may be fuelled by some highly charged emotion- while this is not impossible like arguing down delusions/ *idees fixees*, it's still no piece of cake.

Seriously? Cuz the explanations based on the said principles has already been given. Just go back and read my comment - the "WHOLE" of it.

Two things. First, you have not given any indication why the KCl found in vaccines is a human need and thus beneficial to humans.

Interesting how you ask for an explanation and when given an explanation you can not refute, you just pretend that the explanation does not exist. It's a written argument and it's still up there.

Second, I am still waiting for someone to prove that the KCl found in vaccines is " completely harmless"

And since KCl in vaccines is not an essential source of potassium, I will stick to eating bananas. And since the potassium in bananas is not an essential source of conferred immunity, i will stick to vaccines.

OK before I comment can someone tell me if this is a joke?

I really tried to find a reference to KCl used and deemed safe in vaccines as an essential source. And to avoid future confusion, any H2O in vaccines is also safe despite the fact that it's not there as an essential source of hydration. In fact, I have never received a vaccine to cure my thirst.

Nevermind. The comment above is deemed a joke.

Thingy, did you really read this thing and did you really understand it? The reason for KCl in vaccines was given in post 142. Read it, read it again and read it just till you understand it.
The reasons for KCl in vaccines being completely harmless were given in too many posts to mention. So read and read again. If I, with my limited knowledge of English, can understand it, you could understand it as well.
Ignorance isn't always a bliss.

a. Is not true, because several people mentioned food containing KCl

Strawman. Food vs non-food.

and the fact people need it.

Which one? The potassium found in food or the KCl in vaccines?

b. Kevin Vicklund addressed to this in post 142.

Yeah but Kevin missed the target. As usual he didn't say anything if the KCl found in vaccines could cause harm in humans.

OK before I comment can someone tell me if this is a joke?

Nevermind. The comment above is deemed a joke.

I bet Th was joking too when he/she asked for a citation of his/her claim of an innate preference for sidewalks among toddlers. Or was that also a joke? Cause digging through Th's inane comments, definitions of infection, methods for avoiding contacting diseases from others, etc. wasn't fun at all. I can't even figure out if Th was just mindlessly asking for citations to everything or if he/she genuinely doesn't remember half of the claims he/she makes?

One thing is clear, Thing is not an essential source of laughter and as such it's attempts at humor pose a distinct danger to our mental health.

(slow dull clap) Bravo you have figured it out, but unfortunately the princess is in another castle. Now please explain yourself or go away. By that I mean explain your methods for keeping all of mankind (including babies) safe and disease free and don't assume you can just attack someone elses ideas. You need to present your own unique ideas. Stop hiding behind what your perceive to be other people's mistakes. Tell us what you KNOW to be the truth. (yeah right, I know you never will because all you've got is anger and picking out what you think others have gotten wrong. Show us what you know to be right)

Get some basic comprehension skills, chum. Like I said, even a non-native speaker of English with a little intelligence will not interpret those statements the way in which you have.

I see what the problem is. Non-native + less intelligence = herd. That thing speaks for itself.

Counselling people deals with changing unrealistic beliefs that hurt the client in some way; this doesn't work with SMI. P's delusions get quieter if he has the right meds; M if questioned will admit that perhaps there really are *no* aliens- no movement on astrology though.

I bet Th was joking too when he/she asked for a citation of his/her claim of an innate preference for sidewalks among toddlers.

You're confused. I wasn't joking in #186, instead I was simply asking if the commenter in #179 was joking. Paragraph 2 of #179 shows that commenter Igor was only joking therefore should not be taken seriously.

I'm going to keep asking until you answer (I know, I am a sucker for punishment) Thing-ding what do you actually KNOW!! and I am not asking for your (non-existent) credentials. I want you to explain what you world view is......if you can. All I know is you think everyone else is wrong. This doesn't tell me what you think you KNOW to be right.

Thingy has yet to answer the questions I asked it months ago.

1. Where did you go to university?

2. What licensing do you have in the health care field?

3. Where in the health care field/science field are you employed?

Until and unless Thingy answers these questions, we will have to assume it is a delusional disease-promoting troll.

@Thingy:

Read my WHOLE comment. All that you keep bringing up again and again has already been addressed there. Nevertheless, since such detail isn't what you can handle I'll summarise it in very short points. For detail: read my WHOLE comment and understand it in the context.

1. Your original comment was regarding SAFETY OF KCl in vaccines.

2. I explained how it is safe. Go back and read it... the WHOLE of it.

3. I have not said that KCl IN VACCINES is essential to the child's needs. Please point out to me where I have said this.

Non-native speaker of english: it implies some one who would be less proficient in English than some one who is a native speaker.
A little intelligence: the minimum requirement for basic comprehension.

Thus the implications of what I said are that your understanding of your native language (I'm assuming that your native language is English) is even less than that of someone who speaks english as a second language.

@ 184 above, I presented 4 real people who place at different points on a bell curve that measures a hypothetical factor : T & M are closer to the "average" than are P & D ( extremes). ( non-work related)

Agashem, lilady, and T-reg illustrate how difficult interacting with a certain extreme truly is. We can learn through observing.

@Denice: A sound observation.
Just curious - what can you interpret about
1. a person who keeps asking a question, but looks the other way when the answer is not to her/his liking?
2. a person who, when answered, pretends that the answer was not given?
3. one who changes the question when the answer was not to her/his liking?

1. Your original comment was regarding SAFETY OF KCl in vaccines.

[Citation needed]

2. I explained how it is safe. Go back and read it... the WHOLE of it.

By your use of straw man, you have asserted that the KCl found in vaccines is safe.

3. I have not said that KCl IN VACCINES is essential to the child's needs. Please point out to me where I have said this.

Of course, if you will let go of straw man, that will be your point. However, you'vee fallaciously compared the use of KCl in vaccine as akin to and I quote:

The diet of a healthy child, and IV fluids given to a sick child (to maintain potassium levels), have a much higher content of potassium but it does no harm.

Therefore, vaccine use is justifiable thus "essential".
Do you deny this?

For crying out loud, justifiable â  essential. As you have been told probably hundreds of times before, words have meanings.

Insano-troll, are IV's considered vaccines on your planet?

For crying out loud, justifiable â  essential. As you have been told probably hundreds of times before, words have meanings.

Why the whine? I didn't start this WHOLE straw man fiasco. For example, this:

The diet of a healthy child, and IV fluids given to a sick child (to maintain potassium levels), have a much higher content of potassium but it does no harm.

There were two case scenarios given. Kindly identify which is essential. Next, which one is justifiable.

@197: I resent that assumption. Despite being a non-native speaker, my command of the English language probably exceeds that of most natives. I can only credit Th with constructing grammatically complete sentences. As to their meaning, I'm still working on compiling delusional to English dictionary.

@193: I was being sardonic, rather than merely joking. And I thought I was laying it on thick enough from the very start. I'd hate resorting to a header announcing an upcoming joke. That will certainly dampen my success as a professional funnyman.

@thingy:
citation: #18

How is it "straw man"? Stop using this term. You obviously don't understand what it means.

My comments regarding diet and IV fluids were to establish KCl is given at doses (whether indirectly in diet or directly as IV fluids) which are magnitudes higher than the amount of KCl present in a vaccine. If you know ANYTHING about toxicology that itself should be sufficient to establish the safety of KCl in vaccines.

I don't see how you are interpreting that the KCl in vaccines is essential to the child.

KCl is essential. Its essential source being diet (in a healthy person) and IV fluids or KCl syrup in a patient (as required).

A vaccine is not given as a KCl supplement. A vaccine is given to confer immunity.
I did mention that the amount of KCl in a vaccine is too small (1/1000th of RDA as calculated in #99). Thus a vaccine can never be used as an essential source of KCl.

In Thingy's "world" (the streets and its hiatuses in custodial care) there is no science. It lives by its wits on the street and now with the onset of cooler weather, it will stay in custodial care in a psychiatric facility.

It is a scam artist on public assistance and is a parasite. It has no education, no job in any field and its only connection to the real world is through posting its brain droppings here. It also has a psycho-sexual masochistic mental disorder by deriving its "jollies" from the derision heaped upon it...each and every time it posts here.

Just a nasty, warped, delusional, uneducated, disease-promoting troll which needs "terminal disinfection".

Once again Thing-ding what do you believe?? Stop nit-picking at others' ideas. Tell us your own.

For crying out loud, justifiable â  essential. As you have been told probably hundreds of times before, words have meanings.

You're in over your head here, even if Th concedes a non-essential KCl in vaccines does not mean the use is unjustifiable (see justification above), you'll have to contend with the next revolutionary discovery that a vaccine actually infect recipients with the disease it seeks to prevent. Fear not, infectious individuals exhibiting no symptoms at the outset can still be avoided, probably through some bubble enclosure.

@Igor: I'm sorry. I was just trying to drive home the point that a non-native speaker of English MAY be excused from incomprehension of a simple logic presented in a language he MAY not be very familiar with; but not a person whose first language is English.
By the way, English isn't my first language either... :)

@Thingy:

The diet of a healthy child, and IV fluids given to a sick child (to maintain potassium levels), have a much higher content of potassium but it does no harm.

Quote mining again? The statement that follows:

Hence if a VERY small fraction of that potassium is injected as a part of the vaccine administered, it is but a drop in the ocean and really DOES NOTHING TO UPSET the balance.

BTW, NO ONE is saying that a vaccine is an essential source of KCl. Given that a vaccine contains 1/1000th of the RDA of KCl (calculated in #99) it can NEVER be an essential source of KCl.

A vaccine is given to confer immunity, NOT as a source of KCl.
KCl in a vaccine is neccessary to maintain the vaccine (#142). I.e. KCl in a vaccine is necessary FOR THE VACCINE, not the child.
It however, is not toxic to the child.
at that dose: Not essential to the child neither toxic to the child. But essential for the vaccine. Totally harmless.

@193: I was being sardonic, rather than merely joking. And I thought I was laying it on thick enough from the very start. I'd hate resorting to a header announcing an upcoming joke. That will certainly dampen my success as a professional funnyman.

So you've only come to realize that it was only a joke because your "point" (which happen to be a joke) did not fit in. I see. And when non-native English speakers and the less intelligent understand your "point" and agree with you then your "point" is no longer a joke. How nice.

@thingy:
Do you realize what "Sardonic" means? It is to joke or be humorous in criticism of someone or something while driving home a point.

Fear not, infectious individuals exhibiting no symptoms at the outset can still be avoided, probably through some bubble enclosure.

How would you know that individual is infectious?

@thingy:
Do you realize what "Sardonic" means? It is to joke or be humorous in criticism of someone or something while driving home a point.

The ultimate question is, did he make a point?

yes, he pretty much did:

While being sardonic, the point he made was that just as Water in the vaccine is not administered to cure thirst, KCl in the vaccine is not given as an essential requirement.

The problem is you fail to comprehend anything which is a little more complex than simple statements made. Sometimes, you even exhibit difficulty in understanding simple statements.

Hence if a VERY small fraction of that potassium is injected as a part of the vaccine administered, it is but a drop in the ocean and really DOES NOTHING TO UPSET the balance.

You do realize that you are merely arguing from ignorance ( no evidence, just sheer assumption), don't you?

BTW, NO ONE is saying that a vaccine is an essential source of KCl.

But you claimed the KCl in vaccines is needed thus essential to humans, no?

A vaccine is given to confer immunity,

OK, this time you're joking.

KCl in a vaccine is necessary FOR THE VACCINE, not the child.

Therefore, the KCl found in vaccines is NOT indicated whatsoever to benefit of the child, thus, it is not needed, right?

It however, is not toxic to the child.
at that dose: Not essential to the child neither toxic to the child. But essential for the vaccine. Totally harmless.

So for you it's OK to give KCl (from the vaccine) to a child even though not needed and indicated for as long as it wouldn't cause harm. This, despite the fact, that you don't have any evidence to support that the KCl (from the vaccine) can cause harm.

I want to hear from a doctor's point of view if this is even justifiable. Calling Orac.

How would you know that individual is infectious?

Depends on the disease. If it's tetanus, then anyone wandering off the sidewalk should be avoided. Staying on sidewalk is so easy even a toddler could do it.

For everything else, I will ask from afar if they were vaccinated and therefore all infectious carriers. Then, I can either walk in the opposite direction, or beat them with a bat before I also catch the zombie plague.

How would you avoid whatever you mean by "infection." And remember to cover the mutated zombie virus.

While being sardonic, the point he made was that just as Water in the vaccine is not administered to cure thirst, KCl in the vaccine is not given as an essential requirement.

He uses water as a cure for thirst. Valid. But since vaccines contain water but not an an essential source of hydration therefore the water in vaccines are not a cure for thirst. Valid.

But here's the problem and the straw man. He also assumed that the KCl in vaccine is a cure. For what?

Who assumed what now? Thing-dong, you still need to say something of substance. KCl has been outlined, described, delineated and explained. Move on and make a point and explain yourself.

Jokester Igor,

That's all I have to say.

Really? That's it? You are going to run off and avoid the rest of the arguments here? By Darwin's beard, how I hate a coward, especially a female one.

Never in my wildest dreams did I imagine someone would one day so painfully scrutinize a contention that water in vaccines serves some other purpose than treating dehydration. I would also like to point out that even though most foods contain some amount of water. Not an essential source, but eating a few stakes will stave off dehydrating to death. Drinking too much water from an essential source of water, whatever that is, may result hyponatremia diluting both essential and non0esential K and other electrolytes. Apparently, whether something is non-essential has little to do with its safety.

Really? That's it? You are going to run off and avoid the rest of the arguments here? By Darwin's beard, how I hate a coward, especially a female one.

Let's just say I don't have any time for jokes. Take your talents somewhere else.

Thingy first brought up its "theory" about KCl in an IV solution being detrimental and playing its semantics game with Orac's statement:

"Forget about how it's not uncommon to inject significant quantities of KCl directly into patients' veins when using solutions like half normal saline with 20 mEq/L KCl."

In order to stir up the sh**, it throws out this inane posting:

"I see what the problem is. Orac knows nothing about bedside Medicine. I can't wait to see you try this on a newborn."

Posted by: Th1Th2 | October 13, 2011 11:37 AM

As yet we have seen no proof of its sh** "theory".

So, Thingy why is KCl in one half normal saline IV solution detrimental?

Also please inform us of:

1. Your education

2. Your professional licensing

3. Your employment in any health care field

See Thingy, the posters here are educated about electrolyte balances, isotonic, hypertonic and hypotonic IV solutions and the normal lab ranges for all the electrolytes. We all are in agreement about the appropriate use of KCl in vaccines and IV solutions.

You on the other hand, fling sh** and are unwilling to back up your sh** theories. So you should be able to provide at least one citation to prove your sh**.

We know your games troll and how you twist words and phrases for your own "jollies"...and you have been called out on your behavior. Time to put up or shut up.

What in my post could ever lead you to believe I was joking? I am adamant. Please, you obviously do not understand humour, sarcasm or when someone is being sardonic or ironic. Should we now add you also have no idea when someone is serious?

Could we please ignore the most idiotic troll in the world? She is a manipulative delusional liar, and no amount of reason will penetrate her Htrae skull of welded steel that covers a vacuum.

@224: I was unable to completely ignore him/her. I did however manage to avoid reasoning with him/her. When you can't even agree on settled word definitions, ridicule trumps futile reason.

Making up definitions for words is one of her favorite tactics. It is just one of the reasons she is a manipulative delusional liar. Please just ignore her.

Alright, I will try. I don't post much on here but I am really fed up with the Thing-a-ling and the fact that she won't dilineate what she thinks. It is the worst sort of arguing so far as I am concerned. But I will ignore.

Most of this comment string is basically a cautionary tale about what happens when you feed the troll.

Thingy first brought up its "theory" about KCl in an IV solution being detrimental

First off, [citation needed] before you can proceed with:

As yet we have seen no proof of its sh** "theory".
So, Thingy why is KCl in one half normal saline IV solution detrimental?

Post #18 on this very thread:

Shut this thread down now before a newborn gets killed with a "not uncommon injection of significant quantities of KCl". Anyway, this thread is another "toxin gambit" gambit and Orac will do everything he can to stay away from fire. Like KCl---it burns.

This is why Th1Th2 cannot be reasoned with. If definitively shown she is in error, she will simply respond by declaring she never made that statement in the first place.

#159 Th1Th2

blame Orac for his disingenuous attempt in #17 by asserting the KCl found in vaccines is an essential requirement for newborns, children and adults.

#17 Orac

I do note, however, that newborns do have potassium requirements:

Does the deceit of this painfully clueless troll know no limit?

#188

Food vs non-food

The potassium found in food or the KCl in vaccines?/blockquote>

As usual he didn't say anything if the KCl found in vaccines could cause harm in humans.

As usual the troll has not provided any evidence that the KCl from the vaccine can cause harm in humans.

Does anyone really believe that it even knows that the chemical structure of KCl used in vaccines is identical to that of KCl found in food sources?

#214
You do realize that you are merely arguing from ignorance ( no evidence, just sheer assumption), don't you?

Does Science Blogs have any sort of compensation scheme for damage to irony meters?

Does kaitlyn moore know anything about dosage?

Heck, does she even know basic biology?

Does kaitlyn moore know anything about dosage?

I screwed up the formatting of my post above (it needed more coffee) and was just about to add a bit that I left off...

"This troll continues to show that it is completely ignorant dose/response relationships and yet it claims some sort of medical credential?
Oh and my dog just told me that it's really a neurosurgeon so I guess I'll have to just take its word for that."

Oh and my dog just told me that it's really a neurosurgeon so I guess I'll have to just take its word for that.

Oooops..
Reading over my shoulder, my dog now says "I did not say that! I don't lie about my abilities. What I really said was...I want to go for a walk and now would be good"

@ Gray Falcon: Thank you for pointing out to the Thing that its statements need to be backed up by citations.

Just another of its word semantics gambits, bogus sh** theories gambits and avoidance gambits...and we are all waiting for its information about its education, professional licensing and employment in the health care field.

Has you seen the SaneVax website page where they have the results of that bogus internet survey that Orac wrote about:

A survey administered by a German anti-vaccine homeopath (August 31, 2011)

This is the "survey" I "participated in" by filling in data for imaginary children...one who received all his vaccines and was very healthy and one who received no vaccines and for whom I "ticked off" all the boxes for disturbing disruptive behaviors and many childhood illness. There is quite a difference in how they are presenting the survey and I don't see any mentioning of the self-selecting biases of it being touted on anti-vax internet sites to parents of autistic children:

New Study: Vaccinated Children Have More Than Twice the Diseases and Disorders Than Unvaccinated Children
October 15, 2011 By Leslie Carol Botha Leave a Comment
Journal of Natural Food and Health

By Augie
October 9, 2011

Preventable Vaccine-induced Diseases

A German study released in September 2011 of about 8000 UNVACCINATED children, newborn to 19 years, show vaccinated children have more than twice the diseases and disorders than unvaccinated children, and perhaps five times more of certain disorders.

The results are presented in the bar chart below; the complete data and study results are here. The data is compared to the national German KIGGS health study of the children in the general population. Most of the respondents to the survey were from the U.S. (Click on the chart to see it better)

(Notice that the article written on October 9, 2011 is authored by "Augie".)

@ Sauceress: I have more faith in your pooch's abilities who may or may not be a neurosurgeon, than I have in the troll's sanity, honesty, education or ability.

This is why Th1Th2 cannot be reasoned with. If definitively shown she is in error, she will simply respond by declaring she never made that statement in the first place.

If you're going to "inject significant quantities of KCl directly into patients' veins when using solutions like half normal saline with 20 mEq/L KCl" and there is no indication then that constitutes a medical malpractice. As I said, I'd like to see Orac doing that on newborns.

Does the deceit of this painfully clueless troll know no limit?

Do you know Orac might be suffering from "first-paragraph syndrome"?

For the first 24 hours, supplemental sodium, potassium, and chloride are not usually required.

Thingy you've been busted for your "games" of semantics...why don't you provide the citations for NOT infusing KCl in half normal saline in a newborn or an adult...you might want to look up KVO infusion.

How about answering my questions about your education, professional licensing and employment in a health care profession?

Thanks for playing the game of semantics Thingy.

For the first 24 hours, supplemental sodium, potassium, and chloride are not usually required.

Which accords nicely with what W. Kevin Vicklund said before:

Of course, one wonders why Thingy was focusing on newborns when there are no vaccines containing KCl that are normally injected before 6 weeks (Rotarix @ 6-24 weeks).

Talking about newborns is clearly a red herring. (I'll happily await accusations of using the "'red herring fallacy' fallacy.")

Which accords nicely with what W. Kevin Vicklund said before:

Read #69. Thank you.

Read the rest of #240. Thank you.

Th1Th2, do you know what the phrase "not usually" means? It doesn't mean "never".

1. Orac said:

I do note, however, that newborns do have potassium requirements:

2. Red herring

Wiki-

A red herring is a deliberate attempt to divert a process of enquiry by changing the subject.

3. Orac's fallacy

For the first 24 hours, supplemental sodium, potassium, and chloride are not usually required.

At age 24 hours, assuming that urine production is adequate, the infant needs 1-2 mEq/kg/d of potassium and 1-3 mEq/kg/d of sodium. Extremely premature infants who develop metabolic acidosis may benefit from sodium acetate administration instead of sodium chloride.[9] Some evidence suggests that metabolic acidosis in preterm infants is primarily due to inadequate urinary acidification by NH4+ excretion and loss of bicarbonate.[...]

Thank you.

So this means that newborns do need potassium, just that supplementation by IV is not usually needed. Nowhere does it say that it is never required.

Thingy, I hate to feed you, but as a teacher, I have this everlasting hope for the ignorant to learn, so let me explain syllogistically (I know you hate them):

1. Orac originally referred to "patients" generically, without reference to age.
2. You were the first person to bring newborns and direct the conversation toward the potassium requirements of that group.
3. The conversation then (at least for a time) became about newborns, and Orac responded to your allegation that he knows nothing about treatment of newborns (which is what you quoted in #244).
4. Ergo, you diverted the conversation to a different subject altogether, which is a red herring.

See how logic is done?

So this means that newborns do need potassium, just that supplementation by IV is not usually needed. Nowhere does it say that it is never required.

And who are these newborns who require KCl supplementation? If you can answer this then you will recognize your fallacious argument.

And who are these newborns who require KCl supplementation? If you can answer this then you will recognize your fallacious argument.

One that is severely premature, most likely. Again, though, this isn't important. Your attempts to cast aspersions on Orac's competence do nothing to change the fact that the KCl in a vaccine is not enough to cause harm in any way.

Neither there are newborns normally injected with KCl, you're saying?

Idjit!

Urban Dictioary-

Idiot
Person with an intellectual barrier blocking them from obtaining average intelligence

1. Orac originally referred to "patients" generically, without reference to age.

True.

2. You were the first person to bring newborns and direct the conversation toward the potassium requirements of that group.

Yes I started off with the youngest "patient". Do you have any problem with that? Orac didn't think so. He responded.

One correction though, I did not "direct the conversation toward the potassium requirements of that group." Orac did.

3. The conversation then (at least for a time) became about newborns, and Orac responded to your allegation that he knows nothing about treatment of newborns (which is what you quoted in #244).

My argument is on Orac's lack of knowledge in bedside Medicine after he claimed that injection of "significant quantities of KCl directly into patients' veins when using solutions like half normal saline with 20 mEq/L KCl" is something "not uncommon" because he implied that adults, like newborns, also have potassium requirements.

4. Ergo, you diverted the conversation to a different subject altogether, which is a red herring.

No. You forgot to mention that Orac expanded his "patient" group to children and adults as well. I followed him there. Yet he still failed to support his claim that "injection of KCl", regardless of age group, is "not uncommon".

@ T-reg:

In response to your questions: the easiest way to look at it is that people can focus upon the external or internal world. Occasionally, the internal focus sheds light upon the external which is then elucidated through language and symbols and then communicated to other people in that world- a great artist like James Joyce did this. Meanings and symbols can be shared.

Mostly however, focus towards the internal world with its topical chimerae and idiosyncratic word meanings is not art but disability. Internal thoughts might be magnified and mis-identified as external; speech from others could be mis-interpretted or recalled to fit the internal pattern. Who can say what degree is volitional if the entire system is unreliable- all information is filtred through the internal template, distorting the original to fit an internal mold or definition. Meanings and symbols are idiosyncratic and difficult to interpret by others.

After Thingy took Orac's original statement about adult KCl IV and switched it in its sick mind to a newborn to accuse Orac of incompetence, I provided an actual case at # 22 above...that of my newborn son, who required KCl in solution infusion while in the NICU.

"The dreaded KCl is actually in vaccines. And, they actually infuse newborns on Digitalis with KCl in NICUs...wow.

As I recall, my newborn son was on Digitalis due to a huge atrial septal defect and was also tachypniac, which was not TTN (Transient Tachypnea-Newborn), required KCl in a peripheral IV at the rate of 0.5 - 1 mEq/kg/hour. Hypokalemia in the newborn who is in respiratory distress and is on Digitalis is quite common in the NICU.

Doh...there really is a difference in the dilution of 20 mEq KCl in half normal saline and the actual infusion rate of KCl per hour based on the infant's weight in kilograms.

Posted by: lilady | October 13, 2011 12:56 PM"

I also posted above about other medical conditions in the neonate that would require KCl in solution infusions...as did other posters here.

Why should we believe anything that this uneducated, unemployable, delusional says?

Why doesn't the pathological lying delusional troll provided us with its education, professional licensing and employment in the health care field?

One that is severely premature, most likely. Again, though, this isn't important.

See? It's either you will treat every newborn as severely premature to justify the use of KCl or that your self-recognition of your own mistake and fallacy is something not important.

Your attempts to cast aspersions on Orac's competence do nothing to change the fact that the KCl in a vaccine is not enough to cause harm in any way.

You have no evidence to suggest that the KCl found in vaccines is "completely harmless". Nada.

See? It's either you will treat every newborn as severely premature to justify the use of KCl or that your self-recognition of your own mistake and fallacy is something not important.

You were told repeatedly the KCl was not meant as a supplement, but as a way of preserving the vaccine. Do you really think you can just ignore that?

You have no evidence to suggest that the KCl found in vaccines is "completely harmless". Nada.

We have a huge piece of evidence: the fact that a child would take in far more from other sources, and wouldn't be harmed.

This thread has been completely derailed by the troll. I enjoy lurking here on a daily basis, but having to parse thingy's comments is starting to get tiring.

Can we please ban him for the sake of polite, intelligent discourse. Nothing new can be learned from feeding the troll.

What happened to the citations about the deleterious effects of KCl in IV infusions and the deleterious effects of KCl in vaccines that the Thing should be providing. After it accused our host Orac of incompetence, it would be "appropriate" to provide those citations

Thingy must realize (after thousands of its brain droppings postings) that it needs to provide citations.

Why doesn't Thingy provide information about its education, professional licensing and employment experience in the health care field?

Just a pathological lying uneducated, unemployable delusion troll in need of "terminal disinfection".

Th1Th2, you have a fascinating inability to reason about this topic.

My expertise is in computer science, not biology or chemistry, and yet the idea that the tiny quantities of KCl in solution in these vaccines could pose any danger is foolish to me, and easily disproved, based on the sort of knowledge I learned in junior high science classes.

Perhaps my experience with A.I. might come in handy here. As some of you know, Apple just released a new model of iPhone yesterday which includes an intelligent agent program named Siri that is based on technology originally developed at DARPA. It contains a fairly conventional voice recognition engine that converts speech to text, and then the agent software takes the English sentences and tries to figure out the meaning and perform the appropriate actions on behalf of the user's commands.

People have been trying to do this since the 1960's, and the difficulty has always been loading enough information about the nature of reality and human society into the system in order for it to be able to understand sentences like, "My mother's name is Ellen Jones. Call mom." In that example, it has to know that "mother" and "mom" are synonyms, that they represent a relation between the speaker and another human being, and that the command "Call" means that the speaker wants to initiate a phone call with a person who is probably in the user's phone book whose name matches (or is sufficiently similar to) "Ellen Jones".

That's an extremely simple example, and even then there are ambiguities. What if there are two Helen Jones's in the contact list? What if there's one person with multiple phone numbers? In some cases, the probability is high and the agent doesn't have to ask for more context. In other cases, it might ask for clarification from the user. This is all based on chains of probabilities, information learned from the user, and information about reality and human social concepts built into the software, which is known as an "ontology".

Back to the vaccine example. Th1th2, you seem to be incapable of parsing a chain of reasoning that the AI software in a new smartphone could probably figure out with just a few more rules in its knowledge base. So here is how I would explain this to that AI. For each of the early points, please assume that the normal human connotations of words like "liquid", "substance", "atom", and so on have already been programmed in.

1. There is a substance called water that is essential to all life on this planet.
2. Water is a molecule.
3. Molecules are composed of atoms.
4. The composition of the water molecule is two atoms of hydrogen bonded to one atom of oxygen.
5. Water is a liquid at room temperature.
6. Salt is another molecule. It is a solid at room temperature.
7. Salt is composed of one atom of sodium bonded to one atom of chlorine.
8. Elemental sodium is a soft metal at room temperature that reacts violently with water.
9. Elemental chlorine is a poisonous gas at room temperature.
10. Salt dissolves in water into two electrically charged ions, a sodium ion and a chloride ion.
11. When water containing salt is evaporated, the ions electrically bond to each other, leaving behind solid salt (as opposed to sodium metal or chlorine gas).
12. Water is an essential compound for life. Consuming too much or too little can be dangerous to health.
13. Salt is an essential compound for animal life. Consuming too much or too little can be dangerous to health.
14. Potassium chloride is another salt which has similar behavior to sodium chloride.
15. Potassium chloride is also an essential compound for animal life. Consuming too much or too little can be dangerous to health.
16. Animals have built-in mechanisms for regulating the balance of these ions in the blood (which is largely composed of water). These ions are known as electrolytes.
17. When an animal is severely dehydrated, it may be healthier to consume liquids containing electrolytes (e.g. Pedialyte, Gatorade, etc.) as opposed to plain water.
18. In especially severe cases of dehydration, IV solutions containing sodium chloride (saline) and potassium chloride may be administered by medical professionals to reestablish the healthy balance of these electrolytes in the blood, especially if the patient is unconscious and unable to consume water and electrolytes orally.
19. Animals possess a set of highly specialized cells collectively referred to as the immune system, which are capable of fighting off infectious diseases (bacteria, viruses, etc.) that endanger the body.
20. The immune system can sometimes malfunction and attack the body's own cells (autoimmune disorders) or cause symptoms in response to harmless allergens such as pollen or dander (allergies).
21. The immune system can also be trained to respond more quickly and vigorously to dangerous infectious diseases that it might be exposed to in the future, by introducing a vaccine into the body (subcutaneously, intravenously, etc.).
22. Vaccines contain substances that are relatively harmless to the body, but are sufficiently similar to the disease that they confer (full or partial) immunity to the immune system, training it to respond vigorously in the potential event that the patient is exposed to the real disease in the future.
23. The purpose of a vaccine is to protect the patient from the potentially large risks of contracting the actual infectious disease, e.g. flu, polio, measles, whooping cough, smallpox, HPV, etc., which must be weighed against the potential dangers of the vaccine.

Th1th2, I'm curious which of the above-numbered statements you disagree with. If so, why?

If not, then, of all the possible complaints that one could have about the potential risks and benefits of vaccination, why are you arguing over a harmless salt (potassium chloride) that is present in the vaccine for purposes of efficacy of the vaccination, and is also present in the blood. The amount of KCl is small, and the amount of water and NaCl in the vaccine are also small. The balance of electrolytes in the blood wouldn't be disturbed whether the vaccine contained KCl or not.

Would you prefer that people be injected with a broken vaccine that doesn't confer any immunity? You are quick to insult people who disagree with you, yet you are the one who is supremely ignorant of the very foundations of the topics in which you are trying to argue.

What is it you are trying to argue with us, anyway? If you have no specific disagreements with the *long* list of statements that I tallied up for your benefit (and that of the lurkers), then you seem to just be insulting people for no reason. And that makes you look like the fool, not anyone else.

I have a truly Orac-like comment in moderation trying to build up a chain of reasoning, piece by piece, literally as one would explain it to an intelligent agent software such as in the new iPhone, why it is that KCl in vaccines is pointless to argue about.

I think at this point the thread has become about the delusion that KCl is harmful, and so, strangely enough, Th1th2's delusions in this particular thread seem quite on-topic to me.

Maybe I'm rationalizing the time I spent on the monster comment in moderation.

I meant to write Orac-length, not Orac-like...

No. You forgot to mention that Orac expanded his "patient" group to children and adults as well. I followed him there.

You sure do have an odd sense of "following," since you were the first person to even mention newborns (and frankly, Orac's first response makes it clear that he didn't have newborns in mind at all). Face it: you derailed the whole discussion in a failed attempt to cast aspersions on Orac's knowledge, and even if you had managed to prove some point there, you still wouldn't have touched the issue of whether the amount of KCl in vaccines is anything to be concerned about (which it's not).

Just keep asking the troll for its citations and its credentials, and ignore any of its other postings.

Again, has anyone visited the SaneVax website to see the report that I mentioned above:

New Study: Vaccinated Children Have More Than Twice the Diseases and Disorders Than Unvaccinated Children
October 15, 2011 By Leslie Carol Botha Leave a Comment
Journal of Natural Food and Health

Apparently the internet "study" isn't closed yet and they are still soliciting respondents.

You have no evidence to suggest that the KCl found in vaccines is "completely harmless". Nada.

I also have no evidence to suggest that witnessing Th's blatant disregard for basic competence and simple honesty is completely harmless to our well-being. Yet here we are, taking a risk. Nor does Th' have evidence to suggest that typing on her computer is completely harmless. In fact, judging from Th's statements, computer use may correlate to eroding cognitive reasoning skills and recalling or even recognizing own recent statements.

Perhaps one day Th will surprise us all by claiming that he/she never said anything and simply does not exist. Then, inch'Allah, Th will exit, stage right, never to return again.

You were told repeatedly the KCl was not meant as a supplement, but as a way of preserving the vaccine. Do you really think you can just ignore that?

I think since thing reads every second word of any attempt to clearly explain some very basic things, he/she can ignore anything with ease.

@lilady:From the German study

"The data was collected from parents with vaccine-free children via an internet questionnaire by vaccineinjury.info and Andreas Bachmair, a German classical homeopathic practitioner."

and

"On the other hand, I had noticed the results show about a 1% rate for autism in the unvaccinated over 3 years oldâabout the same as vaccinated children. So I asked Bachmair why the data does not show significantly less. He told me he had invited many autism groups and internet autism lists to participate and thus skewed the results accordingly. "

Nuff said. This is a study the same way my email spam aggregate contents are a study.

You have no evidence to suggest that the KCl found in vaccines is "completely harmless". Nada.

Seeing as the humpty troll provides no evidence that the dose of KCl found in vaccines is harmful, the cravings of its insatiable addiction to attention can be its only reason for carrying on with the above line of comment.

@ Igor: This is the study I participated in and I posted my participation on RI. I got raked over the coals at AoA because one of their trolls saw my posting...I figure it was a coup to be castigated there with in the company of Dr. Offit and Orac.

Yes, inch'Allah, Th will exit, stage right, never to return again. Or, as the Italian nonni of my childhood friend used to say, "From your lips to God's ears", Th will exit, stage right, never to return.

I guess the troll missed the whole point:

A very basic concept in toxicology is that of a toxic dose.

A substance is toxic only when it is administered at its toxic dose.

A vaccine contains KCl at levels which are a VERY small fraction of the non-toxic doses of KCl given in IV fluids and diet.
For example 0.005 mg in one vial of a vaccines vs 358 mg in one banana.

A very small fraction of a non-toxic dose is non-toxic.

You DO NOT NEED statistical evidence to prove the validity of a simple phenomenon where all the relevant variables are known and well understood.

Please do not feed the idiotic manipulative lying troll.

You were told repeatedly the KCl was not meant as a supplement, but as a way of preserving the vaccine. Do you really think you can just ignore that?

Why do you keep repeating the same crap? Read #214.

It however, is not toxic to the child. at that dose: Not essential to the child neither toxic to the child. But essential for the vaccine. Totally harmless.

So for you it's OK to give KCl (from the vaccine) to a child even though not needed and indicated for as long as it wouldn't cause harm. This, despite the fact, that you don't have any evidence to support that the KCl (from the vaccine) can cause harm.

Orac knew exactly when to shut up. He eventually did because if he had insisted on something be given to a patient wherein there is no indication for the need whatsoever will constitute medical negligence. In this case, a medical error "whether or not it is evident or harmful to the patient." (Wiki) Be like Orac and shut the hell up!

We have a huge piece of evidence: the fact that a child would take in far more from other sources, and wouldn't be harmed.

That is without a doubt a huge "WHOLE" piece of straw man.

He eventually did because if he had insisted on something be given to a patient wherein there is no indication for the need whatsoever will constitute medical negligence.

Is it really trying to argue that, unless an excipient contained in a medication is also specifically indicated for the condition for which the medication has been prescribed/administered, then administering it amounts to medical negligence? Serioulsy?

Virtually all medications contain ingredients other than the pharmacologically active substance.For example: ph stabilisers, binders, cellulose or gelatin coatings, ingredients which aid absorption (disintegrants), antioxidants such as vitamin A, vitamin E, vitamin C, amino acids cysteine & methionine ect.

So according to this pathetically ignorant troll, any doctor who has ever prescribed/administered any medication containing any form of excipient, where the excipient is not indicated for the condition, could be sued for medical negligence?

And here I was thinking that it couldn't possibly get any more idiotic.

He eventually did because if he had insisted on something be given to a patient wherein there is no indication for the need whatsoever will constitute medical negligence.

Rubbish!

Is it really trying to argue that, unless an excipient in a medication is also specifically indicated for the condition for which the medication containing it is prescribed/administered, then administering it amounts to medical negligence? Serioulsy?

Virtually all medications contain ingredients other than the pharmacologically active substance.For example: ph stabilisers, binders, cellulose or gelatin coatings, ingredients which aid absorption (disintegrants),
antioxidants such vitamin A, vitamin E, vitamin C, the amino acids cysteine and methionine ect.

So according to this pathetically ignorant troll, any doctor that has ever prescribed/administered any medication containing any form of excipient, where the excipient is not indicated for the condition being targeted, could be sued for medical negligence.

Oh and let's not forget the binders, fillers, coatings, and who really knows what else seeing as there is virtually no regulation, making up all those alty "natural" supplements

So Why then is this troll spending all its time here commenting when it should be too busy writing letters of complaint to the relevent regulatory bodies.

And here I was, once again, thinking that it couldn't possibly get any more idiotic.

@thingy:

@ #214:
you want this from a doctor's point of view, right?
Well, I am a doctor. I am an MBBS (that's MD in the US). I have been awarded the degree by the Rajiv Gandhi University of Health Sciences, from the Indian state of Karnataka. My degree is recognized by the Medical Council of India and is considered at par with the MD degree in the US by the "US National Committee on Accreditation" - I've been through Med school.

Now, could you give your qualifications?

The "evidence" that you want has already been given to you. Please take the trouble to read it and understand it.

You do not need a statistical evidence to prove that a baseball bat will accelerate at 9.8 ms-2 in the earth's gravitational field because it is an established fact in science that this holds good for any object with a mass.
This is because all the RELEVANT variables are understood and well accounted for.

Similarly, IT is an established fact in science that a substance is toxic only when it exceeds its toxic dose - regardless of the toxin.
Thus, I DO NOT NEED TO POINT TO STATISTICAL EVIDENCE, calculation of the dose administered and a confirmation that it is below the toxic dose is proof enough. Any one with a BASIC SCIENCE EDUCATION would understand why.

Thus from that fundamental concept of "toxic dose", a substance administered at a fraction of a proven non toxic dose is still non toxic.

Thus for KCl too (refer to "regardless of the toxin" 2 paragraphs up) it holds true that when administered at a fraction of a non toxic dose, it is non-toxic.

@Thingy:

We have already given you enough proof and have countered your arguments time and again.
You consider your self better qualified than us despite the fact that you have a secret educational qualification which you refuse to share with us. So, could YOU kindly enlighten us as to;
1. Why is Potassium a toxin?
2. What should we expect to see when Potassium toxicity occurs?
3. How does the body normally deal with Potassium?
4. How is this toxicity related to Potassium present in vaccines at very low doses when much higher doses of potassium given by other means is not toxic?
5. What evidence do you have that Potassium in vaccines is toxic? (I do not need statistical evidence if you could explain the other questions, nevertheless since keep asking for statistical evidence I guess you might have some interesting piece of evidence to counter us... let's see it).

Not sure what happened to my post...

He eventually did because if he had insisted on something be given to a patient wherein there is no indication for the need whatsoever will constitute medical negligence.

Is it really trying to argue that, unless an excipient in a medication is also specifically indicated for the condition for which the medication containing it is prescribed/administered, then administering it amounts to medical negligence? Serioulsy?

Virtually all medications contain ingredients other than the pharmacologically active substance.For example: ph stabilisers, binders, cellulose or gelatin coatings, ingredients which aid absorption (disintegrants),
antioxidants such vitamin A, vitamin E, vitamin C, the amino acids cysteine and methionine ect.

So according to this pathetically ignorant troll, any doctor that has ever prescribed/administered any medication containing any form of excipient, where the excipient is not indicated for the condition being targeted, could be sued for medical negligence.

Oh and let's not forget the binders, fillers, coatings, and who really knows what else seeing as there is virtually no regulation, making up all those alty "natural" supplements

So Why then is this troll spending all its time here commenting when it should be too busy writing letters of complaint to the relevent regulatory bodies.

And here I was, once again, thinking that it couldn't possibly get any more idiotic.

because if he had insisted on something be given to a patient wherein there is no indication for the need whatsoever will constitute medical negligence

I'm quite sure you don't understand what constitutes medical negligence.
In most of the pills one consumes (SBM prescriptions or herbal extract pills or homeopathy pills - whichever it is that you take when YOU are ill) there is NO INDICATION whatsoever for the gelatin (in capsules) nor for binders (lactose, dibasic calcium phosphate, sucrose, corn starch, microcrystalline cellulose, povidone polyvinylpyrrolidone and modified cellulose) in tablets. Yet, the said pharmacological preparations contains them (gelatin, lactose etc).
Medicated syrups given to children contain (in addition to the active compound) maltitol, sorbitol or glycerol. They (maltitol, sorbitol and glycerol) have no indication in most of the diseases for which the syrups are prescribed. They (maltitol, sorbitol and glycerol) are also not essential to the child as a source of calories. But they are given.
The above are examples of

something be given to a patient wherein there is no indication for the need whatsoever

and yet do not

constitute medical negligence.

because if he had insisted on something be given to a patient wherein there is no indication for the need whatsoever will constitute medical negligence

I'm quite sure you don't understand what constitutes medical negligence.
In most of the pills one consumes (SBM prescriptions or herbal extract pills or homeopathy pills - whichever it is that you take when YOU are ill) there is NO INDICATION whatsoever for the gelatin (in capsules) nor for binders (lactose, dibasic calcium phosphate, sucrose, corn starch, microcrystalline cellulose, povidone polyvinylpyrrolidone and modified cellulose) in tablets. Yet, the said pharmacological preparations contains them (gelatin, lactose etc).
Medicated syrups given to children contain (in addition to the active compound) maltitol, sorbitol or glycerol. They (maltitol, sorbitol and glycerol) have no indication in most of the diseases for which the syrups are prescribed. They (maltitol, sorbitol and glycerol) are also not essential to the child as a source of calories. But they are given.
The above are examples of

something be given to a patient wherein there is no indication for the need whatsoever

and yet do not

constitute medical negligence.

In other anti-vax news:

@ AoA today:

Cathy Jameson writes (" Up Your Nose") about how her 5 children played with kids who had recently received Flumist ( with its *live*- shudder!- virus). She narrates how she banned visits with the offending kids for a fortnight -much to her own kids' consternation and whining.

Her kids got sick! Those horrible disease-spreading virus-shedders... I mean,*vaccinated children*, were *of course* the culprits. Her own unvaccinated children would have been fine if they had not encountered those offensive disease-spreaders. She goes on about how she lectured her own charges about vaccination and its many deleterious effects.

Folks, this is *really* what we're up against: fear-mongering ranting and raving that reaches a large audience of susceptible and largely un-instructed parents. Folks like AoA as well as the woo-meisters I survey, reach large numbers of people via the internet and other media ( radio, public TV pledge drives, documentaries ). Anti-vaxxers have a voice and try to shout down the SB opposition.
Discuss.

@ Dr. T-reg: Your postings are excellent...I suggest we all "sit tight" now...awaiting replies to your questions from the troll.

We have other physicians, chemists and lab technologists who post here, as well.

I'm a retired public health nurse and haven't worked in an acute care setting for years...but you never "lose" your education and training in electrolytes, IV therapy and homeostasis for the hospitalized patient. I mentioned in prior posts that Orac is not a specialist in neonatology, nor am I a nurse-specialist in the NICU and the troll is not qualified to post here.

I also declare that this blog is "not shut down"...just awaiting for replies to your questions addressed to Thingy.

Denice:

Is she noticing at any point that the vaccinated kids did not get sick?

While the vaccine "toxin" ranters continue with their nonsense, it's nice to see intelligent, pro-children's health commentary like this today from John Barnard M.D., director of the Research Institute at Nationwide Children's Hospital.

Dr. Barnard writes of his sorrow about the death of a previously health baby from H. flu meningitis in the days before vaccination, and of the transformation wrought by the vaccine.

"Last week, I asked my colleagues in the microbiology lab how many cases of H. flu infection have been diagnosed in recent years. The answer was stunning.

Since 1997, our physicians have treated one case of H. flu meningitis, which occurred in a child whose parents refused vaccination. Before 1990, more than 100 children were hospitalized with H. Flu infections (including meningitis) at Nationwide Childrenâs Hospital each year. Many of those children died.

It is remarkable that during my relatively short medical career, a killer disease has been all but eradicated by biomedical research that led to a simple, safe vaccine strategy."

This is the sort of writing that, while not likely to eradicate antivax fearmongering, will at least help prevent it from spreading into an epidemic that threatens our children's health.

@ Denice Walter: I see you beat me to it...by "slumming at AoA" for that article about Flumist.

I notice that the mommy warrior/reporter didn't state that her children actually have doctor-diagnosed cases of flu...but then truth never interfered with the opportunity to be published in AoA.

Mommy warrior expects that she can keep her unvaccinated children safe from the disease-bearing playmates of her kids, yet feels justified in exposing her unvaccinated rug rats to whole classrooms of other children...some of which may have (real) medical contraindications for one or more of the recommended childhood vaccines. I bet she never thinks that her unvaccinated kids will be exposing infants too young to be fully vaccinated in her child's pediatrician's office. What a sterling character she is.

Oftentimes the comments yield some other inane comments, such as this gem from #2 commenter, regarding the seasonal flu immunization program in her child's school:

"Always the optimist I was hoping for last years formula and perhaps some immunity to it but who can answer that, not the docs, not the health department, noooo, no one knows, yet they scramble to offer "up" ridiculous vaccine facts..such as " No one is going to get sick from this vaccine if they don't receive it"..that's the biggest lie on the flu vaccinated planet!!"

This jerk/mommy warrior is a liar and has never questioned a doctor or called the health department about using "last years formula" of flu vaccine for the 2011-2012 influenza season.

Watch for additional postings on this article and no one will correct the lying jerk about this fallacy...such is life in the echo chamber of the AoA.

@lilady: yup, I could see that the posters know what they are talking about, so i guessed as much.

I had posted on this blog about a month ago on a long buried thread and was called a necromancer (that was funny).
I also had got into an argument with augie over benefit of vaccination from the view point of a developing country, but never got around to replying to him cuz I was busy. Later the thread was too old and I didn't want to reprise my role as a necromancer.
I forgot what I posted under so now its T-reg (that's an irony on the name Th1Th2) :)

Can I just say that "feces of three healthy children in Cleveland" would be an AWESOME name for a band!

Sounds more like an installation in an art gallery to me.

Militant Agnostic @286 ---

Eeeeeew!

@ i can't remember....

For some reason she doesn't mention that. I wonder why?

@ lilady:

Slumming? you want slumming? OK, Mikey @ NaturalNews 'splains those recent supplement studies. Hilarity ensues as per usual.

@ Dangerous Bacon: we have our job cut out for us.

@ Dangerous Bacon: Thanks for the link for the doctor discussing invasive Hib disease. They were amongst the saddest case that we investigated at the health department. I also remember meeting a mommy whose child was seen at the dedicated Pediatric Emergency Department of our County hospital by a specialist-emergency pediatrics. As soon as the doctor examined the child, he intubated him...the youngster had epiglottitis caused by Hib.

Articles such as this appearing in mainstream media go a long way to inform parents about the dangers of childhood diseases when parents "opt out" of immunizations for their kids.

@ T-reg: Your reference to "augie" brings to mind my stalking troll who was quite vicious with his personal attacks. He was put in "moderation purdah" for a short period of time for a particularly nasty racial word. I can only hope that he is permanently banned from this site.

Yes, this blog is officially open...still.

I'm off now for my weekly visit to see "my other son" in his group home.

Please remember no feeding the troll...unless it answers the questions put to it by T-reg.

@ i can't remember....:

There was not mention in the article whether or not if the children who actually received FluMist got ill...but I can bet they did not. Nor did any of the mommy/warriors who have posted since then, who claim their kids got ill with a "flu-like" illness after exposure to the kids who got the vaccine, mention that there was an outbreak of actual influenza in immunized kids.

One additional mommy/warrior has posted about the potential danger of FluMist from what she learned from another of their anti-vacs docs...Dr. Sherry Tenpenny. Because the vaccine is administered via nasal spray, Tenpenny suspects that the proximity of the nasal passages to the base of brain may cause encephalitis.

This is the ninth year that the prevalent seasonal influenza strains have been incorporated into FluMist seasonal influenza vaccine and there has never been an untoward incident with administering the vaccine to mildly or moderately immuno-compromised individuals and there are no contraindications to administering to family members of these immune compromised individuals:

Can contacts of people with weakened immune systems get the nasal-spray flu vaccine LAIV (FluMist®)?

People who are in contact with others with severely weakened immune systems when they are being cared for in a protective environment (for example, people with hematopoietic stem cell transplants), should not get LAIV (FluMist®). People who have contact with others with lesser degrees of immunnosuppression (for example, people with diabetes, people with asthma taking corticosteroids, or people infected with HIV) can get LAIV (FluMist®).

-CDC The Nasal Spray Flu Vaccine (Live Attenuated Influenza Vaccine [LAIV] CDC Updated September 21, 2011

BTW, call me "suspicious"...but this season's influenza seasons is barely getting started. The onslaught of diagnosed influenza cases in the western hemisphere is usually after the New Year. My county has no lab confirmed influenza cases.

278 and 279,

A bunch of straw man. Despite the fact that you've admitted that excipients/gelantins/binders are not indicated for humans whatsoever, you then falsely concluded that they must be "completely harmless" and therefore "safe".

Next.

You sure do have an odd sense of "following," since you were the first person to even mention newborns (and frankly, Orac's first response makes it clear that he didn't have newborns in mind at all).

And neither does Orac have any idea even for adults.

Th1Th2@293, do you know what a "straw man" is? The only arguments they were addressing were the ones you made. You, on the other hand, made a huge one with:

Despite the fact that you've admitted that excipients/gelantins/binders are not indicated for humans whatsoever,

They never said that.

"you then falsely concluded that they must be "completely harmless" and therefore "safe"."

Because something can be completely harmless, yet unsafe?

Th1th2, I'm curious which of the above-numbered statements you disagree with. If so, why?

0.5 This,

My expertise is in computer science, not biology or chemistry,

Why? Murphy's Law.

Th1Th2, please tell me what "Murphy's Law" means, and why you believe it applies, and why you felt that, rather than deal with the basic-level chemistry he tried to explain to you, you chose to insult his qualifications.

Because something can be completely harmless, yet unsafe?

So you're claiming that these excipients, gelatin and binders are completely harmless to humans is because [enter straw man]

Otherwise [enter evidence-based science]

Th1Th2, you want me to prove that lactose, dibasic calcium phosphate, sucrose, corn starch, etc. are harmless? Most of those are common foodstuffs!

The never said that.

How could they missed the CAPS LOCK??

Th1Th2, you want me to prove that lactose, dibasic calcium phosphate, sucrose, corn starch, etc. are harmless? Most of those are common foodstuffs!

Ah you mean they are harmless to the food. I see. Straw man. Next.

You said, "not indicated for humans whatsoever", they said "not indicated for the condition being targeted" and "there is NO INDICATION whatsoever for the gelatin... in tablets." Not that they weren't indicated for humans. Do you really think you can get away with lying like that.

Thingy:

What university did you attend and what university degree do you have?

What is your professional licensing?

Where are you employed in the health care professions?

Where are the citations to prove that KCl in solution and in vaccines are deleterious?

Why should we believe anything that you post?

Th1Th2:

Ah you mean they are harmless to the food. I see. Straw man. Next.

I said foodstuff, as in made from food, not food additives. Try learning what words mean, not guessing at their meaning. It will save you a lot of trouble.

You said, "not indicated for humans whatsoever", they said "not indicated for the condition being targeted" and "there is NO INDICATION whatsoever for the gelatin... in tablets." Not that they weren't indicated for humans. Do you really think you can get away with lying like that.

Then list down the INDICATION of which (excipients, gelatin and binders) to humans.

Please ignore the most idiotic delusional troll from Htrae.

Then list down the INDICATION of which (excipients, gelatin and binders) to humans.

As parts of food.

I said foodstuff, as in made from food, not food additives. Try learning what words mean, not guessing at their meaning. It will save you a lot of trouble.

Ah ok. So, you mean they are harmless to the foodstuff?. I see. Straw man. Next.

Okay, now Th1Th2's just being contrary. I really should have known better than to think I'd get something intelligent out of her.

As parts of food.

I said INDICATION of excipients, gelatin and binders to humans. No moving of goalpost allowed. You've been cheating the whole time.

So if something isn't indicated, you can't consume it at all? Do you eat, Th1Th2? Because most of those substances are found in common food. Not additives, not preservatives, part of the food itself.

Time to ignore delusional, uneducated, unemployable troll.

It is deliberately not answering any questions about its education, licensing, gainful employment and is unable to provide any citations that back up its irrational thinking processes. Just a scamming, on the dole, troll.

So if something isn't indicated, you can't consume it at all? Do you eat, Th1Th2? Because most of those substances are found in common food. Not additives, not preservatives, part of the food itself.

I don't eat foods I don't like.

Well I for one am glad that at least we all agree that my steak is in no danger from the collagen inside. I'll keep it frozen until there is conclusive proof that it's completely safe for safe for human consumption. Although can any foods be completely safe being a choking hazard?

Thingy, even eaten pudding? Most of them contain gelatine. If gelatine in pudding doesn't do any harm, why should it be different in medicines?
It is told you again and again and again and again and again, KCl is harmless in several products, which contain even larger amounts of KCl than a vaccin, so why would KCl in a vaccin not be harmless?

Okay, now Th1Th2's just being contrary.

"Now"?

Okay, more contrary than usual. Which takes some effort.

I believe that it is time for the Thingy bot to start posting...the bot makes more sense.

I continue to be astonished at Orac's forbearance in permitting such a lunatic to continue posting unchecked.

I think we can go ahead and consider Thingy a chemistry denialist, since he seems to think KCl is okay when it's naturally in food, but somehow putting it into a vaccine turns it into not-KCl, with radically different chemical properties despite still being made of potassium and chloride ions. In other words, that A is not equal to A.

As an example of venomous, arrogant, content-free trolling, Thing serves well. Why you continue to attempt to engage her is a more interesting question. She is deliberately misunderstanding, misrepresenting, and misdirecting posts.

Does Orac permit colorful language? Th1Th2 is an asshole.

If it wasn't clear by now to the average bystander that Thingy is a raging lunatic, #314 clinched it.

I believe that it is time for the Thingy bot to start posting

Th1Th2bot, having neither a proper front nor back end, is pretty high maintenance. It's going to be in the shed for a while.

@ Narad:

Altho' it's "in the shed", couldn't a person who is rather familiar with its "software" produce a reasonable facsimile ( good enough to pass a reverse Turing test) of its eloquent near-poeticisms? I *do* so miss the bot!

I believe that you are the man** for the job!

** or woman, as the case might be.

@ Denice Walter: Earlier on this thread I thought I was reading the Thingy bot postings...it's difficult to tell the difference lately.

I think twice before not take on your insane assertion,
Therefore not mistaken, the indication
Why the wild when most people make.

You should never be also vaccinated primarily
For no loitering allowed.

Why these ignorant infection?
It's nice: to justify the same;
Assumption, don't have asked.

Was actually the errors you have
Any indication, for example, you: saying?

In time you.

[Entitled] "That the Child, Even for Newborns, Whatsoever to Refute Chad in Infancy"

@ Th1Th2bot: Thank you for the explanation about KCl in vaccines and IV solutions and for information about magnesium for "ETOH cases".

What would be the Mg dosage for a case of vodka, versus a case of whiskey?

I think given the extent of thing's medical knowledge, a haiku was more appropriate. Or a dirty limerick.

I think given the extent of thing's medical knowledge, a haiku was more appropriate.

When it makes a haiku, you'll get a haiku. I only added the formatting and helped it select among titles.

I love limericks...even the dirty ones. I think that would be appropriate.

Thanks again bot, for clarifying electrolytes in IV fluids and KCl in certain vaccines.

Th1Th2bot, having neither a proper front nor back end..

Just like a certain
troll.

@thingy:
Answers to #277 please... Stop trying to dodge the questions.

You claim that I argue from ignorance (this is despite the fact that I'm qualified in the field within the realms of which we are arguing and I am also licensed to practice in the field of health care).

So, why don't you share with us some of your pearls of wisdom and rid me of my ignorance?

@Thingy:
before you respond to this, answer my questions in #277. This is so that you don't hide behind attempts to attack me over this post to avoid answering direct questions put to you.

For the benefit of lurkers:

Try to follow the logical trail here:
1. Let us suppose we have a drug that has to be given at a dose of 5mg.

2. Measuring out and dealing with 5mg of a drug (which is a very very small quantity and is much less than a pinch of the drug) is difficult.

3. Thus, the drug has to be given a volume which makes it easy to hold or administer (i.e. make it easily manipulable) but keeping the dose at the required level.

4. Thus, an inert substance must be added to the drug to make up a manipulable volume at the same time keeping the content of the active drug at an appropriate level.

5. Such an inert substance is one which either does not interact with the body at all (in a biochemical sense) or is one which interacts but does not cause any untoward effects.

6. Such substances added for the above explained purpose (i.e. to carry the drug) are the excipients in the drug.

7. The above problem and its solution are not limited to SBM alone but is a feature of homeopathic "medicines" and any other "medicines".

8. Some excipients are added so as to make the pill dissolve slowly and thus provide a prolonged and sustained plasma concentration of the drug at the required levels rather than have it spike to above the required dose and then rapidly drop to below the effective level.

9. Some excipients (in the form of a coating) are added to prevent the pill from dissolving in the stomach as the low pH there can render it inactive. These pills are designed to dissolve in the small intestine where the pH is higher and enables the drug to be absorbed correctly.

Excipients are added to a pharmacological preparation to provide the preparation certain desirable properties (as illustrated above) or to preserve the drug. The latter being necessary to keep the drug from spoiling and thus becoming inactive.
BUT, bearing in mind that these excipients come in contact with the body, harmless/safe substances are chosen to ensure that while helping the drug preservation and delivery, they do not harm the body. Without excipients, the active drug may prove to be ineffective because of inability to deliver it or spoiling it altogether.

@ Narad:

While I'm not entirely sure if the Turing or reverse Turing test is apropro, I think that the bot has talent as well as serving a useful function in society. I tried reading it aloud and was *very* impressed.

@ Narad: I read the bot's comments aloud as well. It provided good information about electrolytes in solution and KCl in vaccines and the amount in "natural foods" as well as Mg for "ETOH cases".

I was impressed with the bot's immense knowledge compared to the gibberish posted by Thingy.

According to Jeffrey Kluger in Splendid Solution, a history of Salk's work on polio, the "three healthy children" were from Akron. They were siblings who had been exposed to a person with paralytic polio and acquired the virus, but who, themselves, did not develop the disease. This was a Type I virus, which became known as the "Mahoney type." That virus sample had been isolated not by Salk, but by Dr. Thomas Francis, for whom Salk had once worked. There were also samples of Type II and Type III virus, which came from other sources.