The clueless cite the ignorant to argue against vaccines

By oracknows on February 2, 2011.

Remember Medical Voices?

It's a group that I first discovered a year and a half ago that represented itself as a group of physicians and medical professionals who wanted to produce the "most comprehensive educational center on the Internet for physicians seeking the truth about vaccines." Of course, it didn't take me long to realize that MV was packed to the gills with the usual characters, antivaccine loons all, people such as Sherri Tenpenny, DO; Mayer Eisenstein, MD, JD, MPH; Harold Buttram, MD; and Leo Rebello, MD, ND, PhD. So copious were the utter nonsense, pseudoscience, misinformation and lies that populated that site, that reading Mark Crislip's deconstruction of just a small portion of it in three classic posts:

As a result of Mark's work, Nick Haas challenged the crew at Science-Based Medicine to a "debate," with hilarious results. I myself couldn't resist having a bit of fun with Medical Voices by asking I know you are, but what am I?

I tell you this not so much to brag, but rather to give you an idea of what I'm about to deal with here. Sometime between a year ago and now, Medical Voices rebranded itself, dropped the "Medical Voices" moniker, and returned to its roots as the International Medical Council on Vaccination (IMCV). It's a new/old name, but the anti-vaccine propaganda is the same. So is the way it's served up on a slick website with people with a lot of letters after their names. This, of course, tells me that MDs and PhDs are no guarantee of critical thinking skills or an understanding of science. To get an idea of the intellectual bankruptcy of IMCV, consider this. Nearly a year ago, I utterly deconstructed a completely deceptive claim that vaccines didn't save us written by one Raymond Obomsawin, PhD. When this dishonesty was pointed out to Dr. Obomsawin, he stated that he had had problems doing the graph correctly in Excel and that he would correct the graphs. He hasn't. They're still there. Not only are they still in their original location, but they've metastasized. Where, you might ask, have they metastasized? Well, if you read the link, you'd know that they've metastasized to the IMCV website in the form of a webinar entitled Graphic Reality: The Charting of Truth. Not only that, but he never changed his graphs.

So much for any pretense of intellectual honesty.

The reason I bring this up is because this week the IMCV appears to have teamed up with another font of anti-vaccine nonsense. With whom has the IMCV teamed up with? I'm half tempted to see if you can guess, but I'll end the suspense and just tell you up front:

Mike Adams:

Today, the International Medical Council on Vaccination (www.VaccinationCouncil.org) has released, exclusively through NaturalNews.com, a groundbreaking document containing the signatures of over 80 family physicians, brain surgeons and professors of pathology, chemistry and immunity, all of which have signed on to a document stating, on the record, that vaccines pose a significant risk of harm to the health of children and that there is no real science backing the "vaccine mythology" which claims that vaccines are somehow good for children.
This groundbreaking document, called Vaccines: Get the Full Story, is available as a free download from NaturalNews.com. Click the report cover image on the right to go directly to the download page, where you'll find downloads available in 9 languages, including Spanish, French, Hebrew and Russian.

You have permission to share this report. Please also share the download page with others so that moms and parents can get educated about the risks associated with vaccines and thereby protect their children from the risk of harm caused by vaccines.

Consider it done, Mike. I'm happy to share this report, because deconstructing anti-vaccine lies is what I do and this report is as big a pack of anti-vaccine lies as I've seen in a long time. Here is the link to download the report. Here is the direct link to the report in English. And, of course, in case Mikey decides to try to make the report disappear down the old memory hole, I'll keep a copy of the PDF for myself.

Before I look at the report itself, I have to ask: What is it with cranks and petitions? I mean, seriously. Cranks promoting pseudoscientific nonsense (as the IMCV is) seem to love various petitions. Creationists, for instance, love them, so much so that the National Center for Science Education (NCSE) produced a list of defenders of evolution named Steve, as a parody of the various lists that evolution denialists produced of scientists who allegedly "doubt Darwin." Despite the fact that limiting the list only to Steves limits the number of potential signers to less than 1% of the population, Project Steve has far more signatories and, among the signatories, far more real scientists than any creationist list. Currently Project Steve is up to 1,153 signatures. Denialists of anthropogenic global warming are also fond of such lists. The most famous such list among AGW denialists is without a doubt U.S. Senator James Inhofe's list of scientists who "doubt" AGW. Of course, the vast majority of the scientists on the list are not climate scientists, and a lot of them are meteorologists, but that's par for the course for crank lists like this. Perhaps the most amusing example of such lists is Patriots Question 9/11, which is a website that lists a bunch of people who "question" 9/11.

And now we have the anti-vaccine movement weighing in with its own list.

And what a pathetic list it is! After all, the 9/11 Truther list has a couple of thousand signatories. Inhofe's list has over 600 signatories. Unfortunately for the anti-vaccine movement, apparently all the signatures the IMCV could scare up were around 80. I mean, come on! With All those crunchy docs out there falling for "complementary and alternative medicine" and its attendant tendency towards antivaccine views, they could come up with only 80 people to sign, many of whom aren't even doctors or nurses but homeopaths or chiropractors. This is the best the flaks at IMCV could do? Only less than 90? And or old friend Dr. Jay Gordon isn't even on the list! But, hey, tiny numbers aside, the IMCV has a brain surgeon; so the list must have validity, right? Oh, wait. Creationists have a brain surgeon too. Remember Dr. Michael Egnor, a neurosurgeon so obtuse about evolution and dualism that the skeptical blogosphere even coined a term for his special form of idiocy, namely Egnorance?

So who signed the IMCV list? Well, perusing the list, I don't see any real vaccine scientists, but I do see a lot of names I recognize, anti-vaccine loons all: David Ayoub (known for his belief in black helicopters); Russell Blaylock (who's into HIV/AIDS denialism, too); Rashid Buttar (who's as dubious and nasty as they come); Harold Buttram (one of the promoters of the idea that shaken baby syndrome is in reality vaccine injury, not to mention also a prominent member of the crank organization AAPS); Mayer Eisenstein; Boyd Haley; Suzanne Humphries; Sherri Nakken (who describes herself as a "Hahnemann homeopath"); Andrew Maniotis (not a physician but he is an HIV/AIDS denialist); Christiane Northrup; Veira Scheibner (also a proponent of the view that shaken baby syndrome is in reality vaccine injury); Bruce Shelton; Sherri Tenpenny (of course!); and Renee Tocco (a chiropractor well known in the anti-vaccine movement, particularly, alas, in my home state). On the list, there are six naturopaths and nine chiropractors. In other words, these are not people whom I would describe as having much in the way of qualifications. It is rather interesting to note, however, that Christiane Northrup has finally let her freak flag fly high, signing an explicitly anti-vaccine statement.

Upon reading the statement, I was actually surprised by it. No, I wasn't surprised by what it said. Rather, I was surprised at how transparently pathetic it was. The claims made on it were either really easily refuted or trivially true but meaningless. Take, for example, this claim: "These are some of the diseases that have documented associations with vaccines." After this, a whole lot of diseases and conditions are listed. Of course, the key word is "documented." All that means is that there has to be someone who has either published a study or claimed to have data that show an association. It says nothing whatsoever about the quality of the data or studies supporting an association. As I've discussed many times on this blog, the evidence anti-vaccinationists produce in support of links between vaccines and all these diseases tends to be of the poorest quality. Alternatively, as with the "package insert gambit," the conditions tend to be rare and rarely associated with vaccines.

The rest of the list is so full of common anti-vaccine tropes that I actually laughed as I read it. I really did. For instance, IMCV plays the "toxin gambit":

Some Vaccine Ingredients: How is it possible that vaccines will not be harmful to your health?

Stray viruses and bacteria from the animal cell cultures that vaccines are made in.

Mercury, a wellâdocumented neurotoxin, is still in the multiâdose flu vaccines throughout the world. Trace amounts remain in several other vaccines.

Aluminum, a poison that can cause bone, bone marrow and brain degeneration.

Animal cells from monkeys, dog kidneys, chickens, cows, and humans.

Formaldehyde (embalming fluid), a known carcinogen.

Polysorbate 80, known to cause infertility in female mice and testicular atrophy in male mice.

Gelatin, from pigs and cows, known to cause anaphylactic reactions, is found in large quantities in the MMR, chickenpox and shingles vaccines.

Monosodium glutamate (MSG) in inhaled flu vaccines, is known to cause metabolic disturbances (e.g. diabetes), seizures and other neurologic disorders.

Let's see. Refutations are not hard to find for the "toxin gambit," the "formaldehyde gambit," the "fetal cells gambit," the "polysorbate-80 gambit," the "mercury gambit," and the "aluminum gambit." Yes, pretty much all of the misinformation contained in the list above is so common that they have their own names as recognized lies favored by anti-vaccine loons. Basically, this list is utter bunk, pure nonsense, as is this argument:

Autism is associated with vaccines.

Autism was rare until the mass vaccination programs were accelerated in 1991, with the introduction of the hepatitis B vaccine and the HiB (meningitis) vaccine. Tens of thousands of parents will attest that autism appeared in their children very soon after they were given these, and other, vaccines.

Study the information on the website www.fourteenstudies.org. You will find the studies denying the association between autism and vaccines to be highly questionable.

Let's see. #1 is the classic confusing correlation with causation argument. In fact, it's so blatant that I have to ask what the correlation is between autism prevalence and the number of pirates. #2 made me chuckle uproariously, as I recalled my deconstruction of J.B. Handley's utterly ridiculous Fourteen Studies website. Basically, the website is nothing more than a heapin' helpin' of scientific ignorance. Much like the IMCV website, come to think of it.

I could go on and on and on, but I think I'll limit myself to one last passage. If you really want an idea of how idiotic the IMCV "report" is, just how full of burning stupid intense enough to incinerate whole cities--nay, whole continents!--you have to read this part:

Is there any research that shows the difference between vaccinated and unvaccinated children?

The CalâOregon project sponsored by Generation Rescue surveyed parents of vaccinated vs. unvaccinated U.S. children. Of the 17,674 children included in the survey, the results showed:

Vaccinated children had 120% more asthma.

Vaccinated boys had 317% more ADHD.

Vaccinated boys had 185% more neurologic disorders.

Vaccinated boys had 146% more autism.

Girls represented only 20% of the total number of children in the survey. To read the full study for yourself, go to www.generationrescue.org/pdf/survey.pdf.

This is pure comedy gold! Seriously. there's a reason I can't go on much longer after this one, because I was just doubled over in laughter that anyone would be so clueless as to cite the infamous Generation Rescue telephone survey from three and a half years ago. I have to catch my breath. While I'm doing that, take a moment and read my detailed demolition of this survey. Then read Prometheus' excellent deconstruction. Then read Kevin Leitch's excellent analysis of what is wrong with this study and revisit his spot-on conclusion:

There's no getting away from this. This is a disaster for Generation Rescue and the whole 'vaccines cause autism' debacle. Generation Rescue's data indicates that you are 'safer' from autism if you fully vaccinate than partially vaccinate. It also indicates that across the spectrum of autism, you are only 1% more likely to be autistic if you have had any sort of vaccination as oppose to no vaccinations at all - and thats only if you are male. If you are a girl you chances of being on the spectrum are less if you have been vaccinated! Across both boys and girls, your chances of being on the spectrum are less if you have received all vaccinations.

Of course, the results of this "study" are utter crap and not to be believed because of the extreme methodological flaws. However, for the sake of argument, let's say the methodology was sound and the results were credible. As Kev points out, in that case, the survey would actually be evidence against a link between vaccines and autism, which is why I chuckle heartily every time I see anti-vaccinationists like the crew of clueless wonders at the IMCV cite this survey as "evidence" for a link between vaccines and autism. Even the most charitable interpretation of the survey is, as Prometheus put it, that the survey says nothing. Again, much like the IMCV report, which relies on known anti-vaccine activists and discredited sources of information designed to flog anti-vaccine fears in order to spread the twin lies that vaccines don't work and are dangerous.

That the IMCV would cite such nonsensical "evidence" in support of its case should tell you all you need to know about the organization, such as it is.

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Heh. The IMCV attempted to pressure our NSW Health Care Complaints Commission into retracting its findings against Meryl Dorey and the AVN. It sent a letter to the HCCC and media threatening an escalation of negative media commentary unless the HCCC recanted. Needless to say, the HCCC and the media ignored the misplaced bravado of a bunch of cranks.
http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=76305414878&topic=21081

Formaldehyde (embalming fluid), a known carcinogen.

Whatever the medical experience of these people, evidently none of them are embalmers.

Polysorbate 80, known to cause infertility in female mice and testicular atrophy in male mice.
And an ingredient in many foods:

In Europe and America people eat about 0.1 g of polysorbate 80 in foods per day.[7] Influenza vaccines contain 0.000025 g of polysorbate 80 per dose.[6]

Monosodium glutamate (MSG) in inhaled flu vaccines, is known to cause metabolic disturbances (e.g. diabetes), seizures and other neurologic disorders.
Oh dear:

Monosodium glutamate is one of several forms of glutamic acid found in foods, in large part because glutamic acid, being an amino acid, is pervasive in nature.

FOOD IS TOXIC!!!!

The only thing missing from the list is the Dihydrogen Oxide gambit.

They're okay with having the Shaken Baby Syndrome person on their list? Wow.

So, they've found 80 signatories to their petition statement thingy?

We could go all Project Steve on them and find 80 signatories named "steve" to sign a counter document.

Don't know Project Steve? Look it up! Have you no research skills??

/heads off to make a sammich

Mmmm... sammich. OK, here's Project Steve

http://ncse.com/taking-action/project-steve

We need the same against these ICMV nuts.

@Herr Doktor Bimler
To be fair there are a lot of people with adverse reactions to Monosodium glutamate, albeit not in such small doses. It#s usually eating your way through the Chinese buffet that causes trouble ;)

Sometimes even small victories are sweet. I managed to get the HONCode accreditation of at least one branch of the vermin removed.

http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/comment/medvoices.htm

It's rewards like this that keep my spirits up.

Which category do you place the Finnish National Institute for Health and Welfare? Just curious.

"The National Institute for Health and Welfare (THL) is a research and development institute under the Finnish Ministry of Social Affairs and Health.THL works to promote the well-being and health of the population, prevent diseases and social problems, and develop social and health services.THL is the statutory statistical authority in health and welfare and maintains a strong knowledge base within its own field of operations."

http://www.thl.fi/en_US/web/en/Home

Finland's National Public Health Institute (THL) today (1 February) said that young people between 4 and 19 years of age, who received Pandremix swine flu vaccine in 2009-2010 had manifold increased risk of falling ill with narcolepsy, a chronic disease of the central nervous system, which makes affected people to fall asleep suddenly and unexpectedly.

http://www.euractiv.com/en/health/finns-table-evidence-pandremix-narcol…

@Harold
How many times do you and others want to discuss this. Funny thing is that it happened nowhere else but in Finland and Sweden and they're still totally clueless about what is causing it or whether there's a connection at all. As good healthcare politicians do, they issued a warning and are now trying to find out what's going on. You really have no mercy on the deceased equine

@Harold,

Why don't you read this blog from today and offer your thoughts?

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=2794#more-2794

It's certainly an unusual problem and merits further study, but it's hardly a slam dunk against vaccination until we get clear answers to two questions.

1. Why didn't other countries using the same Pandemrix vaccine show increased narcolepsy?

2. Why did unvaccinated as well as vaccinated people in Iceland show an increase in narcolepsy?

Squirellette thank you for your very civil response. Your questions are important and I believe those questions are being looked at in Finland and Sweden. I agree also that this situation is not a slam dunk against vaccination. I, and my children, receive all recommended vaccines but I still advocate for informed consent which I believe actually helps promote vaccine programs.

So basically these fools just copied the standard anti-vax canards and pasted them into their document, which Adams is no doubt touting as a Landmark Study.
Typical. too lazy to even make up their own anti-vax bollocks.

@herr doktor bimler,

As you are referencing a covalent bond, it should be dihydrogen monoxide. Chemistry review last semester and all that.
Cheers

@Harold Doherty

Re the Finnish study of H1N1 and narcolepsy, there might be a causal connection, but their study is preliminary and provides no solid conclusions one way or another. You can read more about it here.

And on the formaldehyde bit, do they not realize that the human body makes formaldehyde? ZOMG!!11! Our bodies are trying to kill us!!!!eleventyone!1!

Gelatin, from pigs and cows, known to cause anaphylactic reactions, is found in large quantities in the MMR, chickenpox and shingles vaccines.

GUMMY BEARS CAUSE AUTISM!!!!!!

Gelatin? Gelatin??!!?

It's a wonder any of my generation survived. Icecream and jelly was standard fare at every single birthday party and many, many summer meals. Let alone those fancy trifles on seriously special occasions.

@MikeMa #13:

@herr doktor bimler,
As you are referencing a covalent bond, it should be dihydrogen monoxide. Chemistry review last semester and all that.
Cheers

I'm convinced that dihydrogen monoxide must be toxic. If it were not toxic, why is it always supplied diluted in copious quantities of hydrogen hydroxide? Answer me that, science-boy?! It's all a conspiracy against da stoopid!!

Why did unvaccinated as well as vaccinated people in Iceland show an increase in narcolepsy?

It must be because of quantum entanglemant between the two groups.

Warning: parts of this post may include attempted humour.

@Sam C
You are right of course. The hydrogen hydroxide is a combination of an acid (the hydrogen ion) and a base (the hydroxide ion). This potentially explosive combination is going to ruin my coffee!

What actually is a "large quantity" of gelatin?

Perhaps MMR vaccine is like a blue police box, and is humungously larger in the inside.

"Animal cells from monkeys, dog kidneys, chickens, cows, and humans"

Yes, but were they *fetid* dog kidneys?

Also on their list - Philip Incao, the holistic physician for AIDS denier Christine Maggiore. He didn't exactly cover himself in glory with his treatment of Christine's daughter [who was dying of AIDS], saying she wasn't unwell.

Well, at least one of the clueless and ignorant is backing away from vaccines as a cause of ASD: Apparently even Jenny McCarthy, Dr. Jay Gordon's good friend, "no longer speaks out against vaccines."

http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2011/02/jenny-mccarthy-backs-away-from…

Speaking of clueless: Does Dr. Jay still give Andrew Wakefield his unwavering support, or is he just a bit slower than McCarthy?

http://drjaygordon.com/miscellaneous/autismone.html

MikeMa writes:

This potentially explosive combination is going to ruin my coffee!

On the last day of the semester, my physical chem prof in college did an entertaining series of Mr. Wizard/"magic trick" sorts of demonstrations for us. The best was a large clear jug with a pipette protruding up through a rubber stopper in the top. Setting the area above the tip of the pipette alight, he explained the jug contained hydrogen, and at the point where the proportion of hydrogen to oxygen was exactly right, there would be a small explosion (at the exact moment he said the word "explosion," there was a "Poof!" and a cloud formed inside the jug), producing water vapor.

We applauded.

Oh noes! Deadly gelatin in vaccines! Bill Cosby is actually a baby killer. Stop him before he jells again.
Here is a link to what appears to be a reputable source on the use of gelatin in vaccines and reactions to them. Seems to me you'd get more from your daily vitamin capsule.
http://www.chop.edu/service/vaccine-education-center/hot-topics/gelatin…

@brian

I'd take Jenny's apparent backing off rumor with a grain of salt. See, for instance, Sullivan's comment on that LBRB article.

@ Jud:

One of the chemistry teachers at my high school liked dropping metallic sodium into a beaker of water for fun. In sufficient quantities that the beaker did not survive. The same fellow taught me to make flour bombs (surprisingly easy to get a surprisingly big bang).

I never actually had him for a class, but he was the Science Olympiad coach.

It's damage control! Over the past few weeks, nearly identical activity with the same cast has occured at Null's enterprise ( progressiveradionetwork.com) with Eisenstein, Tenpenny, Humphries, Adams, etc., plus two interviews with Andy, and with ( a rare sane voice) Brian Deer ( prn archives/ Gary Null show/ 1/25/11, 3PM).

If you think about it, many alt med entrepereneurs have bolstered their own careers by capitalizing on parents' fears of vaccines and using Wakefield's "results" as evidence to push their own products ( supplements, books, films) for years . It's only natural that they rush in to try to salvage the crumbling edifice of anti-vax. Looking at Adams' screeds, you'll find that drumming up fear of vaccines is an integral part of his message : "They'll come with government agents to FORCE you to vaccinate!!!" There's no way that all of that "literature" can go down the memory hole! It permeates even posts that have nothing to do with vaccination.

If customers feel that Adams and the others are "wrong" about vaccines, they might question other information supplied by them as well.

I'd take Jenny's apparent backing off rumor with a grain of salt. See, for instance, Sullivan's comment on that LBRB article.

I'm sure that Jenny would LOVE to not talk about vaccines anymore, since anti-vax lunacy like hers is generally treated with contempt nowadays.

Make no mistake, she is still anti-vaccine, but she doesn't want people talking about her because they will continually bring up that fact.

@Harold L Doherty,

Of course, if any particular vaccine, say a hypothetical Widgitrex, were found to increase risk of some particular condition, that would be no more a slam dunk against vaccines in general that the Toyota recalls of last year are a slam dunk against transportation by automobile.

I hate how these groups use what look like legitimate organization names, like International Medical Council on Vaccines or National Vaccine Information Cenetr. It's highly misleading. They act like domain squatters, and you'd have to be much more familiar than most laymen with either the legitimate bodies or the history of these vaccine fear groups (or both) to really know the difference.

Either that or you'd have to check multiple sources (who does that?) and know to expect deceit and alarmism over real non-issues, which I think can only be learned by experience. That is rough.

I was very lucky my old prof. Bill Dew pointed me to Quackwatch years back, or I'd've been suckered by a lot more woo.

Animal cells from monkeys, dog kidneys, chickens, cows, and humans.

With all of those scientists and brain surgeons they have on their roster, not a single one knows the size of a mammalian or bird cells as opposed to say, the size of the purification filters?

Jason,

Project Steve is already taken. We need a Project Dave perhaps. Hell, if we're only trying to beat 80 signatures we could probably get there with a Project Orac.

-RR-

Science mom: I've brought this up again and again with anti-vaxers, and from what they've told me, they see no difference between whole cells and say, a sticky protein or DNA fragment that makes it through the purification process. They tell me it's "all semantics."

Science Mom @32

With all of those scientists and brain surgeons they have on their roster, not a single one knows the size of a mammalian or bird cells as opposed to say, the size of the purification filters?

You are forgetting about the solvent's memory of the mammalian or bird cells which can pass through the finest of filters due to transverse quantum encabulation. The vaccines could be passed through a Philpritz demodulator, but this would cut into the manufacturer's profits.

Thanks for the post, do you have any other similar related posts?

Project Steve is already taken. We need a Project Dave perhaps.

I was thinking maybe Project Paul for Paul Offit.

I`VE NEVER READ SO MANY INSECURE POSTS IN ALL MY LIFE "THE LIST OF DOCTORS 80" SEEMS TO HAVE CAUSED YOU ALL TO GROUP...

BE WORRIED ,BE VERY WORRIED YOU LOT...

@38
All-One our soul, self-discipline the key to love, uniting All-One above! Above! So, when your fellow man you measure, take him at his best, with that lever, lift him higher, overlook the rest! For we're All-One or none! As teach for 6000 years astronomers Abraham & Israel: âLISTEN CHILDREN ETERNAL FATHER WAKEFIELD ETERNALLY ONEâ

Sorry do you speak English I wrote "Group" I meant to write has caused you all to s-h-i-t yourself...

OQF,
We are worried that there are so many fools that believe so much crap from so few credible sources. The point of the post is that the 80 are not credible sources.

We also worry about vaccine preventable disease and her immunity. And idjits wasting money on non-vaccine related quack cures. And posters using all caps too.

@38

Yawn...project much, oqf?

Whatever!!do you take the vaccine- poisons yourself? it would explain your ,crazy people on here..

@40

How utterly predictable, another ad hominem from oqf.

Soo many people coming out,and telling the truth about vaccines,I`m suprised the USA hasn` banned people telling the truth these days,silly me they have and are trying to jail ASSANGE and Wiki leaks...

Another one ,to shit on guys ,or on one another , whatever your into ,on this site.

http://www.wnho.net/vaccination_news.htm

Ah, man! OQF metastasized to this thread?

@45

How boring, oqf links to a page with absolutely no evidence.

Yep,yep,just keep taking the pills and shots Todd must be sad, having nobody to shit on...

Another Pharma liar along with Deer your collecting them you would have no problem creating a list of cheats either lets call it project BRIAN after Deer the liar and fraud...

http://www.naturalnews.com/028194_Scott_Reuben_research_fraud.html

(NaturalNews) It's being called the largest research fraud in medical history. Dr. Scott Reuben, a former member of Pfizer's speakers' bureau, has agreed to plead guilty to faking dozens of research studies that were published in medical journals.

Now being reported across the mainstream media is the fact that Dr. Reuben accepted a $75,000 grant from Pfizer to study Celebrex in 2005. His research, which was published in a medical journal, has since been quoted by hundreds of other doctors and researchers as "proof" that Celebrex helped reduce pain during post-surgical recovery. There's only one problem with all this: No patients were ever enrolled in the study!

Dr. Scott Reuben, it turns out, faked the entire study and got it published anyway.

It wasn't the first study faked by Dr. Reuben: He also faked study data on Bextra and Vioxx drugs, reports the Wall Street Journal.

Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/028194_Scott_Reuben_research_fraud.html#ixzz…

Yep,yep,just keep taking the pills and shots

Another Pharma liar along with Deer your collecting them you would have no problem creating a list of cheats either lets call it project BRIAN after Deer the liar and fraud...

http://www.naturalnews.com/028194_Scott_Reuben_research_fraud.html

Dr. Scott Reuben, it turns out, faked the entire study and got it published anyway.

It wasn't the first study faked by Dr. Reuben: He also faked study data on Bextra and Vioxx drugs, reports the Wall Street Journal.

Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/028194_Scott_Reuben_research_fraud.html#ixzz…

Before I look at the report itself, I have to ask: What is it with cranks and petitions?

I would think that one of the driving forces behind any crank (and many politicians) is this fundamental idea that if they believe hard enough, and get as many others as they can to believe hard enough, then they will somehow be right. It's like they think reality is one of J.M. Barrie's fairies.

I'd even change my name to be part of Project Paul....but I bet Offit would vote for Project Maurice, to honor Hillman.

caudoviral

They need to self assure one another to counter the list of doctors against vaccines...

http://www.tremante.it/index_file/Page5885.html

Merck admits inoculation of the virus to cancer

The vaccine division of Merck Pharmaceuticals, admits the inoculation of the virus of cancer through vaccines.

The shocking censored interview conducted by a scholar of medical history Edward Shorter for public television WGBH in Boston and Blackwell Science, was cut from the book "The Health Century" because of its content - the admission that Merck has traditionally injected the viruses (SV40 and others) in the population worldwide.

This movie contained in the documentary "In Lies We Trust: The CIA, Hollywood & Bioterrorism, produced and created by the free association of consumer protection and by the public health, Dr. Leonard Horowitz, features the interview to as expert vaccines in the world, Dr. Maurice Hilleman, who explains why Merck has spread AIDS, leukemia and other terrible wounds in the world.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edikv0zbAlU

Production of vaccines and not optional:

You must buy the seeds of the disease (Ed: It's not the seed to produce the disease, this is false 'in biology), a toxic bacterium or a virus "alive" (ed: NOT' may have virus "live" , since they are not living beings but lipid protein containing portion of DNA) to be attenuated, or weakened for human use, with a series of steps by passing the virus through animal tissue cultures several times to reduce its pathogenic potential for as the vaccine is associated with the measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) is prepared nell'embrione chick, the polio virus through the kidneys of African green monkey and the rubella virus through human diploid cells or organs cut of aborted fetuses.

See: Content of Vaccines

How are produced:

explains Dr. Alain Scohl in an article we present the most significant, appeared on Kairos No 4 / 97 where he states: "The vaccine inoculation is carried out in spite of all the usual safety rules recommended for medical treatment." The techniques of preparation of vaccines are kept secret.

Usually even the great teachers they know (perhaps not even the Ministry?).

Today, modern viral vaccines are prepared mainly on cultured human fetal cells or animals, artificially cancerizzate to literally make them immortal (reproduce inside living bodies), and have a certain "stability of the product" when it is not already cancerous cells (lymphomas).

To increase the efficiency of production, the cells "immortal" are "fed" with the blood serum of cows, which has a growth factor particularly active.

It 'just the liquid culture of these cells cancerizzate being inoculated, after filtering and treatment to reduce or kill the virus. It 'absolutely impossible to have a pure product. The 'WHO "hopes" modestly a purity of 90% but not 100%.

What dangers?

These vaccines are inoculano in our body - surely Carcinogens in huge quantities

- Some tools (cellular scale) used in genetic manipulation (in the case of genetically modified vaccines), as parts of enzymes and DNA. This material may ignite at any time changes in the genetic message in the vaccinated, as well as unknown viruses.

For certain vaccines (polio and others) are used cultured cells of kidneys of African green monkeys, (ed: which is prepared with the polio vaccine - the monkey kidney contains a progenitor of the virus HIV, that they say will produce AIDS ) calf serum and chick embryo are proteins, organic matter composed of animal cells.

Viruses such improperly "murdered":

A virus can not 'be killed because it is not' a living being, but only a toxic protein containing DNA - they become "inactive" - in reality only "weak" - with heat, radiation or chemicals, but in some cases a state febrile can reactivate the virus. The virus "weakened" should be strengthened with adjuvants (antibody buster) and stabilizers, adding drugs, antibiotics and toxic disinfectants to the basic preparation: neomycin, streptomycin, sodium chloride, sodium hydroxide , aluminum hydroxide, aluminum hydrochloride, sorbitol, hydrolyzed gelatin, formaldehyde (product cancerous) and thiomersal (the mercury). Comments: Ed: The virus is NOT 'a micro-organism, but only a lipid protein containing DNA, and then and 'a protein TOXIC!

Since this "toxic organic matter" is injected directly into the bloodstream, bypassing all the mechanisms of natural immune defense, it can also alter our genetic structure, as well as the subject immunodeprimere vaccinated.

Several researchers have noted that the vaccines "cheat" by stimulating the body to focus on only one aspect (ie the production of antibodies) of the many complex strategies normally available to the immune system.

Virus (toxic proteins):

of animals used in crop preparation of vaccines and inoculated with them, they can jump the species barrier in a hidden and undetectable.

It 'exactly what happened during the 50s and 70s when millions of people have been infected with the polio vaccine (Sabin) and contaminated with the virus SV-40 (monkey virus) and bodies in the past used monkey to prepare vaccines.

SV-40 - a contaminant - (the fortieth monkey virus detected since researchers began to observe them), is considered a potent suppressor of the immune system, a powerful booster of HIV, the name given to the virus' AIDS.

They say that because a clinical condition similar to 'AIDS and was also found in brain tumors in leukemia and other cancers in humans. Researchers consider it a virus that produces cancer Pleura: mesothelioma.

According to Dr. David Kessler, former official of the Food and Drug Administration, "only about one percent of serious events (adverse reactions to vaccines) will be reported to the FDA. So it is quite possible that every year millions of people have reactions adverse vaccine requirements. "

Dr. Robert Mendelsohn who has often criticized the official medicine for its bigoted doctrine.

He argued that "doctors are the priests who deliver the holy water in the form of inoculations" to give the initiation ritual of the great medical industry to our consecration.

Dr. Richard Moskowitz said: "Vaccines have become sacraments of our faith in biotechnology. Their effectiveness and safety are widely seen as self evident and does not need further tests."

Each year, the FDA received thousands of reports of adverse reactions to vaccines. These figures include brain injuries and deaths.

This information is stored in a database of government secrets (USA) to which American citizens have access (with some restrictions) using the Freedom of Information Act (Law on Freedom of Information). E 'divided into categories that include the vaccines. administered, the types of reaction, information on admissions and deaths, and more.

The data are by 1990 to Agosto2004

From: http://thinktwice.com/secret.htm

You are forgetting about the solvent's memory of the mammalian or bird cells which can pass through the finest of filters due to transverse quantum encabulation. The vaccines could be passed through a Philpritz demodulator, but this would cut into the manufacturer's profits.

Oh duh! Of course, what was I thinking?

@ Enkidu, I know, don't you just love the higher order thinking going on there?

Whenever anti-vaxers complain about MSG (or any altie complaining about it) it makes me want Chinese food. My favorite Chinese place makes an exquisite beef chow fun.

Great article Orac! I googled Senator James "Inofe" and found Senator James "Inhofe" on the Wikipedia site. Just a quick perusal of the site revealed that this Republican senator from Oklahoma has some very-far-to-the-right views; he is on board to make English the official language, is against any legislation regarding the civil rights of gay and lesbians and is definitely a global warming denier.

Scrolling down the site are his committee assignments in the Senate and the hundreds of thousands of dollars he receives from gas, oil and energy interests...his prime fund raising sources.

His many trips to Africa on behalf of Christian evangelical groups, paid for by public funds, have been questioned. He replied to some of these questions that it is "a Jesus thing".

Hmm, I wonder if he could be labeled as a gas, oil, energy, Jesus shill?

gotta teach you how to spell as well and he is your hero ?its Hilliman

Fucking great guy...now tell the truth it goes like this..

http://www.tremante.it/index_file/Page5885.html

MERCK ADMITS INOCULATION OF THE VIRUS TO CANCER

The vaccine division of Merck Pharmaceuticals, admits the inoculation of the virus of cancer through vaccines.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edikv0zbAlU

Production of vaccines and not optional:

See: Content of Vaccines

How are produced:

Usually even the great teachers they know (perhaps not even the Ministry?).

To increase the efficiency of production, the cells "immortal" are "fed" with the blood serum of cows, which has a growth factor particularly active.

What dangers?

These vaccines are inoculano in our body - surely Carcinogens in huge quantities

Viruses such improperly "murdered":

Virus (toxic proteins):

of animals used in crop preparation of vaccines and inoculated with them, they can jump the species barrier in a hidden and undetectable.

Dr. Robert Mendelsohn who has often criticized the official medicine for its bigoted doctrine.

He argued that "doctors are the priests who deliver the holy water in the form of inoculations" to give the initiation ritual of the great medical industry to our consecration.

Dr. Richard Moskowitz said: "Vaccines have become sacraments of our faith in biotechnology. Their effectiveness and safety are widely seen as self evident and does not need further tests."

Each year, the FDA received thousands of reports of adverse reactions to vaccines. These figures include brain injuries and deaths.

The data are by 1990 to Agosto2004

From: http://thinktwice.com/secret.htm

OQF

yep,yep,just keep taking the pills and shots

Maybe you should go back on your meds so you can achieve at least the coherency of a Dr Bronner's Magic Soap label.

"You are forgetting about the solvent's memory of the mammalian or bird cells which can pass through the finest of filters due to transverse quantum encabulation."

Cells teleport too.

LW, the real problem is that the water in the vaccine vials retains the memory of the mercury it once contained--but the dilution makes the effect much more powerful. The Mercury Moms were right--now that thimerosal has been removed from the pediatric vaccine schedule, autism continues to increase due to the homeopathic effects!

Orac comments:

"I was thinking maybe Project Paul for Paul Offit."

If all we're aiming for is to overwhelm the pathetic numbers of Mike Adams' list, we could start "Project Louis" or "Project Elliot". For that matter, why are we eliminating women from the list? How about "Project Beatrice" or "Project Jessica"?

Frankly, I find all of these "people who think like we do" lists pretty pathetic. Especially if they can muster less than a hundred names.

I also seem to remember an advertisement published (in a large newspaper) by one of the "vaccines-cause-autism" groups that listed a number of studies purported to support their claims. As I recall, over the next few days a number of the authors of those papers wrote to the Editor asserting that their research did not, in fact, support the claims of the vaccines-cause-autism group. Perhaps somebody reading this will remember who, what and where and refresh my memory of this event. It was an "epic fail" for the supposed "power of the list".

Prometheus

Prometheus:

For that matter, why are we eliminating women from the list? How about "Project Beatrice" or "Project Jessica"?

Just like Project Steve allows Stephanie (and other feminine varients), I assume Project Paul would allow Paula and Paulette.

@snatur

Try the search box at the top right of the page.

I would think that one of the driving forces behind any crank (and many politicians) is this fundamental idea that if they believe hard enough, and get as many others as they can to believe hard enough, then they will somehow be right.

Nah, it's an attempt at self-validation. Basically, "See, we really AREN'T cranks! We got all these people who agree with us!!!!!!

Just like Project Steve allows Stephanie (and other feminine varients), I assume Project Paul would allow Paula and Paulette.

AND PABLOs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm lovin' it!

BTW, a while back, I tried to start one of these competing lists. It was "Pediatricians who are pro-vaccine" and was basically going to be a list of pediatricians that we knew were pro-vaccine, either because of their writings or because we knew them (as in, they were our doctor and recommended following the CDC schedule).

It never got too far, but I could include the 5 docs in my pediatrician's office. Wouldn't take too many contributions like that to pass 80.

Actually, the anti-vax list that I have seen was more like 500, and it included people that were put on not because they wanted to be, but because they had expressed in public something that could be considered anti-vax. A lot of them were nurses, but good old Jay Gordon was also included.

I was going to congratulate QQF for (despite vomiting up classic antivax glurge) avoiding the use of ALL CAPS in his tirades (which have however employed poor spelling and inexplicable overuse of punctuation).

Then I saw QQF's POST NUMBER 38.

Oh well.

We sheeple have so little solace in life, we have to depend on pills and shots. Too bad there is no anti-stupid inoculation, or we could fool our bodies into being immune to morons.

Anderson gets what he justly deserves..hooorah!!for the Mubarak thugs, just, divine, retribution?Andy Wakefield gives Anderson his thumps...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/02/anderson-cooper-attacked-egypt…

I love the idea of Project Paul. It should be done (even though, as a Carrie/Caz, I couldn't participate).

The usual antivax idiot thinks scientific issues should be decided by unmoderated debates, polls and petitions.

Upping the craziness ante, One Queer Troll thinks they should be decided by mob violence.

Am I the only one who thinks OQF sounds amazingly similar to STY? Although OQF does use paragraphs, so I could be wrong. But the tone is very similar.

I have been wondering what happened to STY after the whole 'you'll all be sorry later this (2010) year' stuff didn't pan out. I imagine coming back after that with the same screen name could be...awkward.

Am I the only one who thinks OQF sounds amazingly similar to STY?

Probably, because in order to make that assessment, you actually have to have actually bothered to read STY _and_ OQF. The likelihood of doing both is vanishingly small, at least for normal folk. You, otoh, might be a glutton for that punishment.

For several years the drone from the extreme right has been anti-elite. A part of this has boiled down to "don't trust the folks educated in science, or even the science itself".
folks like oqf, who never had a chance of understanding it anyway, seem to feel vindicated by this and hold up their "refudiations" as a sort of self-vindication. It's sad that the internet gives them such an easy way to do it.

Is OQF's citation of the World Natural Health Organization the first such mention of that particular group on this blog? I can't recall ever having seen it before. Not that there's anything remotely good about it, but it may at least be novel.

The stupid, it burnses us!

@ dean

Egypt banned the internet,America is trying to jail Assagne for telling the truth,I could go on.. .

Russia and China look very democratic these days..wake up Pharma suckers!!!

Your vaccines and drugs dont work ,your lies dont work,pharma is ...doomed,..doomed, I say ,doomed

OQF probably wasn't expecting people to disagree with him. He most likely thought his statements were self-evident (never mind that several more innocuous explanations also exist), and had no idea what was happening or how to respond. As far as I can tell, his current argument seems to be:

I hear it's amazing when the famous purple stuffed worm, in flap-jaw space, with the tuning fork, does a raw blink on Hiri-Kiri rock! I need scissors! 61!

In episode 234 of "This American Life", Say Anything, there was an excellent though depressing piece on a 14 year old girl who is a climate disruption (and evolution) denier. The piece was on a dialogue between a scientist and the girl. The end was the host asking the girl if there was anything that could change her mind and she basically said "no".
The vaccine folks are probably the same, they want to believe-not know or test their positions.

ps. Gelatin? Gelatin as a toxin? That is a new one to me.

...doomed,..doomed, I say ,doomed

OK, this has simply got to be a Poe. No one could possibly write that with a straight face.

@Gray Falcon

Do you think (assume you do think,albeit intermitently) that pharma is going to continue..do research before you blog..time is up!!

http://www.whale.to/vaccine/higgins_b.html

HORRORS OF VACCINATION EXPOSED AND ILLUSTRATED

PETITION TO THE PRESIDENT TO ABOLISH COMPULSORY VACCINATION IN ARMY AND NAVY

BY CHAS. M. HIGGINS

1920 Published by Chas M. Higgins, Brooklyn.

[scan in pdf] [Sourced by Dr Carley]

Kristen:

I have been wondering what happened to STY after the whole 'you'll all be sorry later this (2010) year' stuff didn't pan out. I imagine coming back after that with the same screen name could be...awkward.

Well he seems to have been joined by this guy at LBRB, who announced he finished autism his research but won't tell anyone about it!

ooooh, the little fishy troll is posting stuff from whale.to. I wonder if he knows that medicine has advanced a bit since 1920 (and that Carley is quite ill, it is actually quite tragic, especially for her son).

OQF, the article you just cited was from a time when the commercial potential of radio was being explored, and the antibiotic properties of penicillin were still a matter of speculation. We've advanced significantly since then.

@Chris

Your another poor brainwashed Offit ,clone..I see you get most of your answers from SBP..you are original!!! INFACT YOUR NOT!!!

http://sciencebasedpharmacy.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/responding-to-anti…

Oh !we have a double act tonight, Gray Falcon as well,bring it on please... Gray by name grey thinking by nature

I'm not sure I wish to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed man. Seriously, your use of whale.to isn't an issue of originality, it's that you're using a site infamous for... well: http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/06/the_nuttiness_that_is_whaleto…

re: MSG

Since both tomatoes and Parmesan cheese are very high in free glutamates -- as compared to other common foods -- it's really surprising that no one has ever reported Italian Restaurant Syndrome, if MSG is the cause of postprandial distress. Could it be because of the initials? How about PPS for Pizza Parlor Syndrome, instead?

@Grey thinking Falcon

You see,and you repeat Chris and Chris repeats himself ,.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and ...Repeating the same action over and over and expecting a different result ...duh!!

@Pieter B

well ,that would be the normal Pharma thinking ,a bit of the eating ice cream causes sun burn ..where as, Dr Wakefield and his research is SCIENCE BASED..

OQF: Weren't you the one who got in trouble for spamming the same paragraph thirty times, despite being told it was irrelevant? Also, you never responded to our criticisms, ever.

Only those who are losing boast of expected victory, those who are winning focus only on finishing the job.

Trouble me, on here,moi? ..never, n-e-v-e-r...

Strange Piscene one:

I don't think anyone regularly posting or even reading here thinks it's a bad thing that Scott Reuben is going to jail and has to pay hefty restitution and fines. Some, like me, might think six months is a slap on the wrist.

Where I think we part company with you is that most of us think Andrew Wakefield would be an excellent cellmate for Dr. Reuben.

@Pieter B

Excrument post... wish I had your cloned brain..god how I have missed out ,all thinking as one...my intention here is not to wall-out genuine thinking, but to create focus within the smaller brain(such as yours) so the engagement would reach the critical mass required to effectively address aspects specific to destroying pharma .

Kind Regards

O.Q.F.

@OQF #90

Could you re-post that in a language spoken within our solar system?

gotta teach you how to spell as well and he is your hero ?its Hilliman

How emblematic; OQF claims he's "gotta teach us how to spell" a name he doesn't know how to spell himself, that of Maurice Hilleman.

OQF, here's how I heard your last post: Kawanishi-Noseguchi, Kinunobebashi, Takiyama, Uguisunomori, Tsuzumigataki, Tada, Hirano, Ichinotorii, Uneno, Yamashita, Sasabe, Kofudai, Tokiwadai, Myoukenguchi. You're not even making coherent sentences anymore.

Also, there are cases of police officers being arrested for corruption, does that mean that law enforcement is inherently bad, and will end soon?

One Queer Fish: Bringing on the crazy at Respectul Insolence, one pile of incoherent drivel at a time.

@Antaeus Feldspar

My next sentence has been removed where i spelt it correctly.I was trying to copy the spelling of the poster ..w.t.f.

Grey thinking Falcon

" does that mean that law enforcement is inherently bad, and will end soon?"

I think its your turn to play at being the, siren..

'wah-yu wah-yu wah-yu wah-yu wah-yu wah-yu'

OQF,

Your thoughts appear to be highly disordered. You should get help before you hurt yourself or someone else.

Scopie's Law: "In any discussion involving science or medicine, citing Whale.to as a credible source loses you the argument immediately ...and gets you laughed out of the room. "

@The Gregarious Misanthrope

How thoughtfull..

Regards

O.Q.F.

@fenton fomite

Scopie's Law: "In any discussion

A donde fueres, haz lo que vieres

I just had a thought; is it possible that OQF's handle is a sly reference to Kanye West via South Park (for those of you who have seen the episode 'Fishsticks')?

OQF @ 95:

'wah-yu wah-yu wah-yu wah-yu wah-yu wah-yu'

Now, I could have sworn it went do-wah-diddy-diddy-dum-diddy-do!

Fishy, I have a surprising amount of Seroquel. You may not know how much it helps with those thoughts.

My 3 year old daughter got a vaccine today (a booster that she had missed getting) and now she is watching "My Neighbor Totoro" for the second time in a row since she's been home!

Coincidence? Or is Studio Ghibli (and Disney, who distributes their movies) in league with Big Pharma??? It's a 1-2 punch: vaccine -> movie -> subliminal message -> our thoughts are no longer our own!

@NJ
"Now, I could have sworn it went do-wah-diddy-diddy-dum-diddy-do!"

Well Imust be punished then" *Smacks arse* "You're a naughty boy O.Q.F."

@Enkidu

Not suprised you Joke about shots.. we did at one time..hope your child is ok..

@dedicated lurker

Seroquel.great stuff !!you should try it mmmm delish!!goes great with charlie..

It was a treat to read Mark Crislip's pieces. I'd have missed them without your links, so thanks!
You and Mark both made reference to the weird obsession among the AAPS wackaloons for Shaken Baby Syndrome. As I reflected on this, a thought occurred to me. It may be dumb, but we're all friends here, right? OK; here goes:

The late Steven Jay Gould, in one of his always superb essays in Natural History, traced the evolution of references to the dawn horse Eohippus as being "the size of a fox terrier." Not the evolution of the horse or the dog, mind you, but the evolution of the fox terrier simile. His point was that the phrase appears throughout the popular literature, and that the use of "fox terrier" rather than, say, "sheltie" or "beagle", was so idiosyncratic that it probably originated just once. He figured that a good job of research could trace it to its author, and I think he did just that, but I forget who it was. As the late Leslie Nielsen would say, that's not important now.

What I'm getting at is that there are sometimes idiosyncratic elements to paranoid wackaloonery that might be used in a similar way. For example, the Ã¼ber-wackaloon Lyndon LaRouche harbors a conviction that the evils of this world are caused by a vast conspiracy centered on the British royal family, and originated with the philosopher Bertrand Russell. Not just any old nameless limey conspirator, but Bertrand Russell. And this spectacularly goofy idea may be used to trace the DNA of a LaRouche-inspired conspiracy even when its origins are not obvious. One mention of logical atomism, and you can pretty much bet all your chips that ol' Lyndon is lurking back there somewhere.

Which brings me (at long last) to my main point. To my knowledge, Shaken Baby Syndrome, while a very serious problem in medicine and child welfare, is not considered to merit a campaign of obsessive denial by any group except one -- the right-wing nutcases of AAPS. And when I hear that someone has developed a theory that pasteurized milk (or whatever) is the real cause of infant trauma blamed on SBS, I have a pretty good idea where that idea is going to be published. But I don't know when or where the alternative SBS theory was first hatched. Does anyone have any insight into the origin story here?

@jre

http://www.whale.to/vaccines/sbs.html

Caffey (1972, l974)1,2 described the "whiplash shaken infant syndrome" as a result of manual shaking by the extremities with whiplash-induced intracranial and intraocular bleedings, linked with permanent brain damage and mental retardation. He referred to his own paper, published almost 30 years prior to the above-quoted papers, which described what he called "the original six battered babies in 1945". The essential elements in this description were subdural haematomas, intraocular bleedings and multiple traction changes in the long bones. These findings became a benchmark of the "evidence" that a child had been shaken before developing these signs.

I seem to have overestimated oqf. I thought he was just incapable of understanding issues and so couldn't understand why comments he thought were intelligent were being dissed by others. Now I see he's just a dishonest idiot trolling for responses.

Well, now, ya see how research material can come from the unlikeliest places. The odds that I would think to dredge whale.to in search of anything useful are slim indeed; yet OQF was able to clue me to Viera Scheibner in just seven minutes.
Now I need to figure out which came first: the Scheibner or the Schlaflys.
There's another lesson to be learned here. I had OQF killfiled, for obvious reasons, and had to "show comment" just to get this tidbit. Thanks, OQF, and you can count on my donation to your Seroquel fund!

What you really need is a Project JENNY!

jre, and it gets worse. First, they always seem to want to call her "Dr. Scheibner" and pretend she is a medical doctor. She is really a micropaleontologist, a form of geology that deals with teeny tiny fossils.

Then to make it even worse, the anti-vaxers became champions of a guy who murdered his girlfriend's baby by shaking him. Gory details here:
http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/comment/yurko.htm

And I see that I wrote "Steven" instead of "Stephen."
Humility lash! OW!

What logical fallacy does "boy, looks like I hit a nerve" fall under?

@One Queer Fish:

You must buy the seeds of the disease (Ed: It's not the seed to produce the disease, this is false 'in biology),

Does that mean "Vaccines are premised on the false notion that germs cause disease"?

jre ,dean,deer chris,

You all flatter yourselves .. posted that just to, jive the place up ..gets to become a yawn !!!posting the same answers for years, to you trolls..had to go for some ..

do any of you speak pharma-troll in Brazilian, Russian, Indian, Chineese, Korean, Mexican and Turkish..

No well you cant write English either how do you, communicate with each other ??just wondering..cant be thought procees because you cant think either..what is it ,how does one site have so many ,dumb fucks??

From Scheibner's Wikipedia article:

Scheibner has stated that infection with diseases such as Polio, Measles, Whooping Cough and Rubella pose no danger and are actually beneficial for the development of a child's immune system. She claims that the only reason children die or suffer permanent disability from these diseases is due to medical mismanagement

Yikes!

Chris

I don't know if I can forgive for posting that link. As I carry my 17 week old baby, I think I am going to be ill. The level of disgusting gymnastics those people go through to defend suc a horrible man absolutely makes me feel like puking.

Abhorent

No well you cant write English either how do you, communicate with each other ??just wondering..cant be thought procees because you cant think either..what is it ,how does one site have so many ,dumb fucks??

Read a book. Any book. Or a newspaper, or even a magazine. Notice how similar the sentences are to ours, and how different they are to yours. Why do you think this is? That's because they use concepts like "grammar" and "sentence structure" to make their sentences.

What is Orac's fetish with Mike Adams?

Mike Adams is doing society an wonderful favor by exposing frauds and criminals in the government and medical field. He is trying to protect people from GMOs, vaccines, etc. He is the good guy here.

Simply put, if you do not like Mike Adams, don't pay attention to him. His right to free speech trumps your fetish of totalitarian control over medicien.

Individual free men make the choice themselves to get vaccinated or not. I guess being "pro-choice" is not choice on everything huh? I am "pro-choice" on vaccines. Get over it. Sovereign indviduals have the freedom and right to decline your vaccines for whatever eason they deem fit. Freedom trumps stuid every time.

I am truly sorry, Pablo. I know how you feel, since I have teenage children and I was very upset reading about the mother in Tampa who murdered her two children. I did give my teenage daughter a hug last night because she came home from school in a rage (and she never told me why!).

@pablo

It is abhorent. And so ridiculous. I can't beleive the guys lawyer though 'it was like that when I got here' was worth trying as a defence. Gross.

Medicien Man, try working on your reading comprehension skills. The main focus of this article is not Mike Adams, it is about a different group of lunatics.

Chris, try not stalking me. My main focus is on this group of lunatics.

Oh, wow, you are an idiot.

That's because they use concepts like "grammar" and "sentence structure" to make their sentences.

Don't forget "punctuation".

Oh. Wow. This idiot has an idiot stalker.

Have you been abusing the sodium flouride again?

Medicien (sic) Man, when you falsely accuse Chris of being a "stalker", two possibilities come to mind:

1) You believe she really is a stalker. This is foolish, if you look around, you'll see she is a regular commenter, and that she comments on everyone.

2) You are trying to rile her up. Not only is this not working (all you're getting is annoyance), but this also makes you look childish and petty.

The point is, stop calling Chris a stalker. It's annoying, and potentially dangerous, as people with real stalkers may be taken less seriously because of your words.

Also, Mike Adams doesn't expose things, he just makes accusations. Without evidence, he's got nothing.

Actually, it does not rile me up. His difficulty with definitions in his native language makes me laugh even harder at the idiot. I was starting to think he is like Mad the Swine, a person who keeps playing the Poe card just to show how the alt-med crowd are so idiotic.

Then I remember that he has never broken character, and he really is an idiot.

This site is a member of Clinton's Global Initiative. We all know who Clinton is and Global means "Worldwide" and Initiative means "the ability to act on your own: the ability to act and make decisions without the help or advice of other people" If you read the disclaimer and see who founded the site and read through the founders and co-workers are for the website. All you see is global this and global that. What is funny is that this site also receives money from the department of defense. Quite hilarious when we think of "Defense" it is to defend against the opposition. But department of defense gets credited for making up a good portion of our nations debt but yet they still can abide by the law and let us know about any of the truth. Anyone with basic research knowledge could figure all of this out. I honestly do not care about any of these things because regardless in the end we are all screwed.

Dick, are you the idiot cousin of the idiot who is sometimes known as "Medicien Man"?

What is funny is that this site also receives money from the department of defense.

Is this some sort of parody?

I thought it might have been spam as it seemed so unrelated too this site or the discussion here.

I just do not know what to make of it.

If I remember correctly I believe that President Obama and President Bush are distant cousins on down the line. So it could be quite possible.

Parody no. Its listed in the disclaimer who funds this site. Guess the people didn't read the fine print like it asked before blogging...

@dick:

Parody no. Its listed in the disclaimer who funds this site.

Oh, you mean the "disclaimer" section of Orac's "about me" page. Yeah, he receives funding from the Department of Defense's Breast Cancer Research Program. I have no idea why the Defense Department would have a program dedicated to breast cancer research (or any kind of cancer research), but since he does do breast cancer research, and the DoD does have a breast cancer research program, I see nothing nefarious about that program giving him money.

Guess the people didn't read the fine print like it asked before blogging...

I don't see anything that asks you to read Orac's "about me" page before commenting. Plus, I can't see how a blogger's "about me" page could be considered to be "fine print" to people who comment on the blog.

Is that what it was referring to? I did not even make the connection as that is discussing research funding not blog funding. While I am sure the funding helps Orac conduct research and to be the scientist that made this blog possible it is wrong to say it funds this website. Orac does not have to pay money to host this site and the funding does not come out of those sources.

Oh, you mean the "disclaimer" section of Orac's "about me" page. Yeah, he receives funding from the Department of Defense's Breast Cancer Research Program

Received.

I haven't received DOD funding since 2006.

@gray falcon

I will stop calling chris a stalker when she stops replying to my comments and singling me out. Aka stalking. Every time I make a comment, BAM, there is chris right there. Almost seems like she is stalking me. I don't care how riled she gets. She's a grown woman, she can handle it.

The pont is, stop singling me out and I will cease the stalking talk. Until then, forget it. It's not happening.

Oh, and sodium flouride is poison. Stop partaking of it. Don't make me get my brother Doctor Smart involved. A little tage team effort goes a long way.

@Medecien Man

I will stop calling chris a stalker when she stops replying to my comments and singling me out. Aka stalking.

You seem not to understand what "stalking" actually means. Now, if Chris followed you around the internet, commenting everywhere you did in an obsessive fashion, sure. But here, she is a regular commenter, who regularly responds to lots of people. No singling you out, except in your own thoughts.

She responds to you just as she responds to most people on here. If that's what it means to "stalk" you, then why not throw the word at everyone else that responds to your nonsense?

If you post on a public comment thread, you open yourself to criticism, especially if what you're saying is flat-out wrong. Deal with it.

Also, water and oxygen can be toxic as well, in the right dosage. Should we stop partaking of them?

Pablo writes,

I don't know if I can forgive [Chris] for posting that link. As I carry my 17 week old baby, I think I am going to be ill. The level of disgusting gymnastics those people go through to defend suc a horrible man absolutely makes me feel like puking.

Abhorent

I couldn't agree more. While I was reading from Chris' link my two-year-old put her face in front of the computer screen and grinned at me. I wish I could unread the little I read, it is the stuff of nightmares. That people would defend this murdering waste of oxygen is disgusting.

water and oxygen is essential for life. Sodium flouride is good for nothing.

fine. I'll deal with chris stalking me.

Is ozone therapy toxic? I the right dosage. is is benenficial? Absolutely - especially to cancer patients.

Anything could be toxic is mega doses, but sodium floride is toxic at even minute doses. It should be banned.

Sodium fluoride (which you never spell correctly) is a naturally-occurring nutrient used by the body to create fluorapatite, the substance out of which our teeth are made. Here's a site worth mentioning, and if you complain that it's Quackwatch, note that unlike Mike Adams, he cites sources and provides evidence.

http://www.quackwatch.com/03HealthPromotion/fluoride.html

If you consider that burden of proof should be on the accused, then please prove to me that you do not practice sorcery.

@Chris, Kristen and Pablo

I was particularly appalled that the murderer's wife (who I assume was also the baby's mother) not only left this maniac alone with her children, but refuses to consider that he may be guilty, even in the face of overwhelming evidence. I cannot comprehend this level of delusion.

Sorry for the double post, but two more things come to mind:
This post isn't about fluoride, it's about vaccination. Sorry about letting Medicine Man distract me like that.

And about Yurko: I saw that before. It seems that anti-vaccinationists will trust anyone who agrees with them, no matter what the evidence. This is very common in extremist groups, from what I hear.

I was particularly appalled that the murderer's wife (who I assume was also the baby's mother) not only left this maniac alone with her children, but refuses to consider that he may be guilty, even in the face of overwhelming evidence. I cannot comprehend this level of delusion.

Sad... emotional attachments are needed for humans to survive, but the vile corrupt them for their own ends like that.

Oh, I get it. The electronics technician who has problems with reading comprehension and vocabulary of this own native language that posts here once in a while with silly 'nyms just does not want me to comment on his idiocy. Oh, no! I am being oppressed! This is the Televisionless Conservative"/"Medicien Man"/"IM Smart" trying to quell discussion!

When in fact I showed that he does not know much at all. From getting the Desiree Jennings story wrong to failing his own challenge to me.

What a joke.

spelling is irrelevant on such a site as this.

vaccines do, at times, cause seizures and even death. The HPV vaccine is among the most dangerous made.

Electronics technician? Silly nims? Sounds like you are jealous. What is your profession then? Scientist? That in itself is laughable since science has been under attack from atheists and nuts who profit from bad science (global warming) for more than 100 years now. Issac Newton you laugh you people right out of history.

You people are clueless. CALCIUM flouride is the naturally occuring flouride you dummy.

Sodium Fluoride is a synthetic waste product of the nuclear, aluminum, and phosphate fertilizer industries. Do you eally like ingsting toxic substances that reduce your IQ, cause demntia, and make bones brittle?

Your toothpaste is damamging your brain by damaging you pineal gland.

I would think secular oppressive atheist liberal academia nuts like you would know the difference between calcium flouride and sodium flouride.

And you call me stupid. Get a mirror the next time you call someone stupid.

and stop stalking me.

Any evidence for your claims? At all? Because simply claiming things isn't enough around here. If someone said that they were distributing large quantities of government money won in a secret lawsuit and anyone who wanted to claim just had to pay a fifty-dollar filing fee, would you do it? Several people did, and most never got a cent.

It turns out that the SBS-vaccine connection is interesting, but not at all in the way I'd surmised. I suspected it was purely a personal obsession of the Schlaflys, which seems not to be the case.

Caffey first described the spectrum of injury later known as "shaken baby syndrome" in the 1946 paper cited by our piscine friend[1]. According to Google's word frequency tool, the phrase "shaken infant syndrome" first appeared around 1971, and "shaken baby syndrome" around 1982.

Viera Scheibner was obsessed with the dangers of vaccines at least by the early 1990s, and published a book on the subject in 1993. She appears to have latched onto the idea that SBS is really vaccine injury (broken ribs and all) before she ever heard of Alan Yurko, but I don't have a hard cite to pin down the dates.

What seems clear is that the anti-vaccine community and the Yurkos fastened onto one another with an indestructible covalent bond. In a perfect symbiosis, one group got a dramatic case to fuel the anti-vax publicity machine while the other got an exculpatory theory and a mob of fanatical supporters. I have not yet been able to confirm that Scheibner was the originator of the SBS-vaccine theory, or, alternately, who was.

[1] In case you were wondering how OQF suddenly learned how to spell, that entire comment was cut-and-pasted from a post by Scheibner.

jre:

What seems clear is that the anti-vaccine community and the Yurkos fastened onto one another with an indestructible covalent bond.

I remember when it was all playing out several years ago. I still gag a bit whenever I see the main players being cited as "vaccine experts." Despicable people like Buttram, Yazbak and Muhammad Al-Bayati, the animal pathologist who not only claimed the vaccines caused the baby's death, but also re-interpreted Eliza Jane Scovill's pathology report. Ugh.

Oh, and silly person who keeps changing his 'nym and calling me a stalker: If you don't like being mocked and laughed at, stop posting your idiotic drivel here.

Jokers it dose not matter a hoot what you try to call death by vaccine .It is still death by vaccine whether you call it SBS,SIS,SIDS or OF-FITS?

Sally Clark from the UK a lawyer,attorney

http://www.sallyclark.org.uk/

P.S. Meidicean Man FWIW, Chris is a bloke with humming breath known to his workmates as the halitosis kid...

Jokers it dose not matter a hoot what you try to call death by vaccine .It is still death by vaccine whether you call it SBS,SIS,SIDS or OF-FITS?

If you can explain how a vaccine can cause broken bones, then you might have a case. Otherwise, get lost. NOW.

Sally Clark from the UK a lawyer,attorney

Stephen Barrett from the US, a doctor. http://www.quackwatch.com

One source doesn't impress me.

P.S. Meidicean Man FWIW, Chris is a bloke with humming breath known to his workmates as the halitosis kid...

That was possibly the dumbest insult I've heard from you, and that's pretty impressive. Also, Chris is a woman.

@ one queer fish

what?

english please

@ gray falcon

So now I need evidence to prove the difference between calcium flouride which is naturally occuring and sodium flouride which is a waste product? Do you ever not question anything? Do you even read for yourself or do you just peer review everything to death? Those peer reviewed studies can and has been at times, swayed with political persuasion and/or money. Example - global warming. Don't blindly trust peer reviews. These peers who are doing the reviews are often bought and paid for by big pharma, corporations, and politicians. Yet, you blindly beleive them instead of doing some research of your own. I guess 'science" is yur religion.

There is really no such thing as an atheist. Everyone has a God whether they are aware of it or not. What you put first and foremost in your life is what you worship and live for. It is your God. In this case science is your God.

@Grey thinking Falcon

How apt,In the absence of light, darkness reigns supreme.

"Also, Chris is a woman."

He can call himself whatever he wants ...sweetie

His breath howls!!!puke!!

He is the only person his wormates know is in a room somewhere before they see himmmm....

So now I need evidence to prove the difference between calcium flouride which is naturally occuring and sodium flouride which is a waste product?

I know that calcium fluoride and sodium fluoride are different substances, but I also know that both occur naturally. And yes, you do have to prove otherwise. That's how we do things.

Do you ever not question anything?

This may be the best quote you've made. You don't want people to think or ask questions, you just want them to believe you. So does every con man on the planet.

There is really no such thing as an atheist. Everyone has a God whether they are aware of it or not. What you put first and foremost in your life is what you worship and live for. It is your God. In this case science is your God.

Actually, I'm a Christian, not an atheist. And I believe that human perception is imperfect, and often colored by one's own prejudices, which is why the peer review process exists.

There is really no such thing as an atheist. Everyone has a God whether they are aware of it or not. What you put first and foremost in your life is what you worship and live for. It is your God.

This must be some new meaning of the word "God" that I was previously unaware of.

@Grey thinking Falcon

"If you can explain how a vaccine can cause broken bones, then you might have a case"

Get the foil hat on it works wonders with thought ..try and think Grey thinking Falcon just try,

http://www.whale.to/v/scheibner.html#Vaccination_and_shaken_baby_syndro…

As I wrote in my previous papers on this subject (J ACNEM 2002; bmj.com Rapid Responses. 2 April 2004: and elsewhere), the whole idea of subdural haematomas and bizarre bone fractures as a result of child abuse was started by Caffey in 1946. He considered fractures in the long bones as a complication of the infantile subdural haematoma associated with the fractures of the cranium. Even though his own illustrations show what is generally considered typical scurvy fractures, he denied any "Roentgen signs of scurvy". Caffey (1946), without going into any more detail, concluded: "The fractures appear to be of traumatic origin but the traumatic episodes and the causal mechanism remain obscure." It is difficult to understand why such classical scurvy fractures as shown in his own photographs were misinterpreted. However, Caffey admitted in his 1965 article, "Significance of the history in the diagnosis of traumatic injury in children", that "it is still a wonder to me that Ross Golden welcomed me, a pediatrician without either formal or informal training or experience in radiology, into his department of traditionally and highly trained expert radiologists". Indeed, why?

The fact remains that Caffey made a mess of things which will take years to rectify. The sooner the rectification begins, the better not only for all those thousands of victims of Caffey's obvious ignorance and closed mindedness but also for those formally trained radiologists who blindly followed misinterpretations of formally untrained Caffey. Moreover, Silverman (1965) attested to Caffey's close mindedness when he wrote about Caffey: "A classic example of his attitude...occurred at the end of a hot discussion at an 11 o'clock conference at Babies Hospital...when he was heard to remark to someone with whom he had been debating a point, 'I wouldn't believe it even if you proved it to me1."

Killer (1972), a formally trained Australian radiologist, demonstrated that Caffey's bizarre fractures are in fact caused by scurvy, although he did not explain what actually caused scurvy in the affected babies.

It was Hess (1920) who pointed out in his elegant, almost 300-page tome on scurvy, which was much ahead of its time, the inadÂequacies of "antiscorbutic" vitamin (vitamin C) content of the usual infant food..

Later on, Pekarek and Rezabek (1959) demonstrated that the administration of DPT vaccine to rats caused them to develop acute scurvy which rectified itself within 24 hours.

However, human babies do not have the advantage the rats have of being able to produce their own vitamin C within their bodies; humans and other primates, fruit bats and guinea pigs, to mention the most important examples, do not produce their own vitamin C and depend on their food having adequate content of this important, essential vitamin.

When human babies are given the same DPT vaccine as Pekarek and Rezabek's rats, they develop acute scurvy which does not rectify itself unless the babies are given sufficiently large amounts of vitamin C. This, of course, never happens because when babies with vaccine reactions are admitted to hospitals they are given antibiotics instead, further aggravating their vitamin C deficiency.

Scurvy affects all systems in the body. It causes depletion of collagen, resulting in vascular wall fragility, blood clotting and other haematological derangements resulting in bruising; it causes brain, retinal and other organ bleeding and many other malfunctions of all systems of the body, including derangement of the central control of temperature, blood pressure, etc.

Injecting foreign antigens (and other proteins) directly into the bloodstream causes immunological derangementsâamong others, the reversal of T4 and T8 cells ratio (Jefferys, 2001), which results in the whole cascade of untoward events resulting in death. I am surprised that any babies survive the intense vaccination proÂgrams they are subjected to these days. Others have mentioned haemophagocytic lymphohistiocytosis (HLH) as the syndrome which is accompanied by the same symptoms as SBS, without going into details as to what actually causes HLH.

Referencing whale.to? You're a joke, Fishface.

Like the title says: the clueless cite the ignorant.

@ T. Bruce McNeely

Jeeeze its going to be a long night..

Clueless AKA (PHARMA SHILLS) are Ignorant of Facts.

Injecting foreign antigens (and other proteins) directly into the bloodstream

There is something very wrong with that sentence. Can you spot it OQF? You cut and pasted Scheibner word for word. It shows that Scheibner's is not educated in biology and medicine. She was a geologist, she know about teeny tiny fossils (which are mined for their minerals, like chalk).

OQF, if you ever require medical attention, like if you break a bone, be sure to call up a geologist and not physician. I'm sure he/she will fix you right up.

"OQF, if you ever require medical attention, like if you break a bone, be sure to call up a geologist and not physician. I'm sure he/she will fix you right up."

God i wondered what the smell was,can you shut your Gob!! when you post please..

Infact I use my horse vet first,if i need any medical advice...

explain something to me

How can a christian possibly believe in evolution? It contradicts the very reason that christ chose to come here and die. You can;t have it both ways. Choose one. Is it creation and od did it or is it evolution and there is no God. Choose only one please. The two are diect opposites of each other. It's like going out into a blizzard in shorted and dying from heat stroke. It's not possible to have two opposites coexisting and performing the exact same outcome.

So, if I walked into a room and said that it was raining outside, would you want a peer review to prove it or would you beleive me?

OQF, if you knew anything about scurvy, you'd know it takes weeks to months to develop, and not too much Vitamin C to prevent it, which is why cases of it are quite rare. If the infant did have scurvy, the parents probably would still be found at fault.

That whole article reads like the writer started from the conclusion and worked her way backwards. There is no recorded case of scurvy being caused by a disease, why should a vaccine cause it?

How can a christian possibly believe in evolution? It contradicts the very reason that christ chose to come here and die.

Really? That's a theological revelation that I've never heard. I've actually read the Bible, sir, and the only part that contradicts evolutionary theory is the part that is lifted lock, stock, and barrel from the Babylonians.

What you put first and foremost in your life is what you worship and live for. It is your God.

My kids are Gods, then?

(although my wife might be disappointed to hear that she is not a Goddess by this definition, although I still think she is)

Grey thinking Falcon..

You just think what you think ,but dont try and stop the guys who do think it out..and come to the conclusions vaccines are death..sooner or later..

@ Wanda

Is this an example of cargo cult science?
Oh, it's Whale.to, I never have been there. Now I understand why sane people should stay away.

So the baby got acute scurvy on the day of the vaccine injection, and he (or she) somehow fails to get his vitamin C back from his food the following days? Even if we are not in the 20's anymore?
And by some very nasty coincidence, the only signs of scurvy in those shacken babies are highly similar to bruises and injuries, but you don't have other tell-tale signs of scurvy, like bleeding gums, or simply a very low level of vitamin C in blood?

"Injecting foreign antigens (and other proteins) directly into the bloodstream "
OK, no vaccine goes "directly into the bloodstream". Reality check fails.

Scheibner et al., there is a special place in Hell for you.

@Medicien (sic) Man,

Christianity and evolution are only in contradiction if you have a rather narrow, extremely literal interpretation of certain biblical books. In that case you must somehow reconcile the two different and conflicting accounts in Genesis.
The only thing that is required to "believe in" evolution is the willingness to view all of the evidence and a decent understanding of the theory.
And yes, I probably would want to verify your statement if you said it was raining outside. You might not know; you might be inaccurate; you might be lying; it might have stopped before you came in.

You just think what you think ,but dont try and stop the guys who do think it out..and come to the conclusions vaccines are death..sooner or later..

If you really thought it out, you'd realize how stupid instantaneous scurvy was. Instead, you just swallow everything you hear whole.

So, you want to buy a bridge?

Heliantus, here is some fun reading on the nuttiness of whale.to. I remember when I first encountered Scudamore in Usenet. I actually clicked on one of his links and was reading a doctor's experience with smallpox, and found some very offensive descriptions of American Indians. He called them savages, and unclean, etc. Then I saw it was written in the late 19th century.

So, if I walked into a room and said that it was raining outside, would you want a peer review to prove it or would you beleive me?

In your case? Peer review.

So, if I walked into a room and said that it was raining outside, would you want a peer review to prove it or would you beleive me?

And why exactly is "look out a window for myself" not listed as an option? I'm certainly not going to trust you, but there's no need for peer review on such a question.

Chris:

I wasn't aware of how insane whale.to really was. I never go there because I was raised not to waste my food.

Anyhow, I call Scopie's Law on One Queer Troll.

The exit is this way, sir. Don't let the door hit your peduncle on the way out.

@Chris

"and found some very offensive descriptions of American Indians."

You do have a link of course?

As you know you get laughed at on here for not having a link ,in good pharma troll fashion,ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ah gasp hahahhahahahahahahahahahaha big gasp hahahahahahahaha

@T. Bruce McNeely

Non sum pisces.

that should keep you occupied for 2 days when your finished go down and buy a stanley knife and play chucky, and catch in your gob..

@ gray falcon

Did you happen to read Genesis?

Did you believe it as it is written?

Case closed.

Jesus came here becuase of what happened in genesis.

Let me guess. You go to an apostate church as well?

Funny. My Bible said God created everything in the universe in 6 days and rested on the seventh. Not one word of millions of years and one animals turning into another over time. Also, there was no death before sin. Evolution requires animals to evolve based on a number of factors. These factors such as survival were not necessary in the beginning since death did not exist.

Did you happen to read Genesis? Did you believe it as it is written?

Taking Genesis 1 literally requires ignoring the true meaning. The Babylonian account begins "When upon high" and ends with the making of Babylon, things meaningful only for those in Babylon. The Genesis account begins with "When in the beginning" and ends with the creation of the Sabbath, times that can be meaningful for all, regardless of place. (The Sabbath, by the way, was made as a labor rule: People could not be forced to work continuously, breaks had to be given.)

Let me guess. You go to an apostate church as well?

Lutheran, actually. We know what Pentecost really means: twenty weeks of green vestments and altar cloths.

My Bible said God created everything in the universe in 6 days and rested on the seventh.

It also plainly states that the world is flat, and that there are waters above the sky.

Also, there was no death before sin.

This is actually an extra-biblical claim. The tree was called "Knowledge of Good and Evil", so evil existed from the beginning by the Genesis accounts, and the warning God gave Adam and Eve was that if they ate the fruit, "dying you will die", so death also existed in the beginning, according to the Bible.

OQT:

Quando podeces te regi eorum fecerunt?

Quod me doloris habet?

@ gray falcon

So the Bible says the earth is flat? What about Isaiah saying it was round when he referred to it as "the circle" of the earth? What particular verse says the earth is flat. Apparently they left that verse out of my Bible. It's alos something Southern Baptists have never mentioned before.

There was water abover the earth IN THE BEGINNING. Ever heard of the canopy theory? It explains why people lived hundreds of years and after the canopy was destroyed in the days of Noah, people lived short years.

Even with you being Lutheran I would think you would have known this. Perhaps you should consider changing to Southern Baptist. Better yet, just read the Bible as it is written and believe in a literal Garden of Eden, Adam, etc. When you do this, the world becomes alot more clear and makes much more sense. Besides, look at the geneology given from Adam until Jesus. If Adam and Eve never existed, then that geneology must have been awfully hard to come up with.

Babylon is irrelevant to the conversation. It did not appear until much later after creation - after the Flood. Besides, the orginal tower of babel ended in all peoples speaking different languages and going seperate ways.

MM @ 178:

Better yet, just read the Bible as it is written

Great! Quote it to me in Greek. Then show how the unusual Greek is related to Aramaic language constructs.

after the Flood

No such beast. Trust me. I (and Lyell and Buckland and several million people) know a lot more about rocks than you do.

You're getting way off topic. If you don't get back to vaccines, any further responses will simply consist of my mocking your cowardice.

Besides that, vapor canopy theory violates every law of physics, and also, the "waters above" and "waters below" are implied to be infinite, as the ocean was considered "unmade" by the ancients.

How stupid are you? Your argument that the Bible is literal is based on statements that assume the Bible is literal. You won't convince anyone but the foolish.

Medicine Man, did you die for my sins? Was I baptized in your name? You are not the Messiah, but a man with pretenses of the divine. I studied how the ancients viewed the scriptures, not as a literal book of facts, but as long-running covenant between humanity and God.

A bramble cannot bear apples, a brackish spring cannot bring pure water, and a cruel, hateful mind cannot create wisdom. Get lost.

Medicine Man - you don't remember that little bit where Jesus looks upon the four corners of the earth? Sheesh, even John Donne knew that was metaphor.

"Your argument that the Bible is literal is based on statements that assume the Bible is literal. You won't convince anyone but the foolish."

Explain how you are christian and do not believe the Bible. That is weird. It's like a chef not believing his recipe book.

back to vaccines. Take them if you want, but I will stay far away from them. Good night children.

If you knew anything about cooking, you'd know only an amateur follows the recipes perfectly without deviation. And if you knew anything about science you'd give a decent reason as to why were are staying away from vaccines.

Here's something you should know: Not every person can be vaccinated, some are immunosupressed and such, while the vaccine does not always work perfectly, usually only 90% of the time (that's still very good, though). If large portion of the general population who can be vaccinated is vaccinated, then the chances of an outbreak actually started are reduced. Thus, being vaccinated assists people in general, not just oneself.

Sorry, two things I need to add:
1) I meant to write: And if you knew anything about science you'd give a decent reason as to why you were are staying away from vaccines.

2) If you suggest that looking out for others over oneself is socialism or totalitarianism, I suggest you start reading the Bible more thoroughly.

Falcon @ 184:

Indeed, I would say that morality begins when one considers the interests of others as equivalent to one's own interests.

Later on, Pekarek and Rezabek (1959) demonstrated that the administration of DPT vaccine to rats caused them to develop acute scurvy which rectified itself within 24 hours.

Wrong. They developed edemas, massive swelling caused by improper draining of the lymph nodes (think Elephant Man, in rat form). Furthermore, this was done while determining the LD50 of the vaccine (and remember, even water has an LD50). This toxicity was only seen at near-lethal doses, much higher than anything that would be given to an infant.

Having low levels of Vitamin C is not the same thing as scurvy.

@ W. Kevin Vicklund

"Wrong. They developed edemas, massive swelling caused by improper draining of the lymph nodes (think Elephant Man, in rat form)."

Eh!! gotta link mate? if not the golden Orac rule (not mine) everyone will piss themselves laughing at you..quick before I start...

to late need to change my trousers ...ha hahahahahahahahahahahahahah gasp hehhehehehehehehe gasphahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahaha can`t breath....

Here you go OQF:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC547663/

Want some ketchup with your words?

Sorry, I had the wrong article. Using PubMed, I found the following:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/13654767

Also, Medicine Man, if you're still here, I should add that in our church, we never talked about "vapor canopies". We focus on something called the "real world", rather than patting our backs about what good Christians we are.

Vapor canopy is just a theory, you know, like evolution.

It is the theory of what best explains why people in Genesis were able to live for upwards to 900 years while people directly after the flood (except noah) lived much shorter years like today.

In your church, what explains the long years people lived In Genesis, or do you not believe that either?

In any regard, we will continue to teach what we teach. It's up to each individual sovereign member as to whether he accepts it or not.

Vapor canopy is just a theory, you know, like evolution.

Learn the meanings of words before using them. Evolutionary theory has evidence supporting it, which is why it's called a theory, as it's the best explanation given the evidence. Vapor canopy has none, which is why it isn't a theory, it's nonsense.

It is the theory of what best explains why people in Genesis were able to live for upwards to 900 years while people directly after the flood (except noah) lived much shorter years like today.

If you'd like, we can set up experimental conditions so you can live in a place which would simulate the vapor canopy's effect. You wouldn't mind living in temperatures of 200 degrees Fahrenheit, right?

In your church, what explains the long years people lived In Genesis, or do you not believe that either?

We focus on more relevant issues.

In any regard, we will continue to teach what we teach. It's up to each individual sovereign member as to whether he accepts it or not.

Same here, but we don't teach outright lies to our members.

Likewise, vaccines exist because we have strong evidence that they work, simple as that. You may think you're a man of God, but seriously, we're not just going to take your word on things.

Just for OQF

Before you can "focus on more relevant issues" you first have to have a foundation for the values on which you focus. That foundation is Genesis.

200 degrees eh? WRONG! What makes you think it was 200 degrees back then?

Did you also realize that it never rained in the beginning. Water came as a mist from the ground. At least that's what my Bible teaches. It wasn;t until around the Time of Noah that it actually rained on earth. This flood changed the entire geology of the whole planet. For the most part, it created the mountain, valleys, and canyons we see today. Natural erosion may have helped over the years, but for the most part, what we see today happened relatively quickly.

I am not sure why you attend an apostate church, but I gues it's your business to attend a church that doesn't believe the Bible. How does that work? Isn't that like a doctor who attends a seminar but doesn't necessarily believe everything being said? How does that work? How can you attend a church that believes in Jesus, but doesn't believe in WHY He chose to die for us? How can a church dismiss the very foundaion of the religion in which they worship? That's insane.

We already know are foundation of our values. We haven't rejected the Bible, we simply rejected one 19th-century interpretation of it.

Also, I'm pretty Jesus didn't die because the sun was made after plants and daylight.

That's insane.

You owe me a new irony meter. Mine just exploded.

I don't trust any scientific truth that has to be defended by petition. I have a theory that when scientists sign petitions instead of stating their beliefs individually, it is because they are trying to hide behind each other. If the petition turns out to be nonsense, they can blame somebody else.

In any case, we must always be suspicious of anything defended on the basis of "they say" instead of "it is." Petitions are a matter of giving the impression that there is evidence for an idea rather than giving evidence for the idea. I have come to the conclusion that the best test of whether someone is citing real science or bulshytt is whether they lean on petitions. If an idea is defended by petition, we must be suspicious of it.

There is the minor problem that, on some issues, both sides lean on petitions.

Busy evening for my killfile.
Is Orac familiar with Eli Rabett's blog and his handy Rabett Hole, http://rabett.blogspot.com/2011/01/rabett-hole.html, "where word salad goes to wilt?" Could be worth considering for quarantine of daft comments without actual censorship of them. Posting styles are actually quite similar between many trolls--compare OQF and Eli's anony-bird. Is there the germ of a research proposal here?

The clueless cite the ignorant to argue against vaccines

More like this

Don't listen to these "medical voices," or: How did I miss this loony antivaccine site before?

What does it mean to be "anti-vaccine"?

The nonsense that is "Vaccine Injury Awareness Month"

A survey administered by a German anti-vaccine homeopath backfires spectacularly

Turning out the lights and moving on: Goodbye, old ScienceBlogs blog, hello new blog

A quick update on the migration to a new domain

A change is gonna come. Respectful Insolence is moving.

And the box of blinky lights has arrived in Manchester for QEDCon

On the "integration" of quackery into the medical school curriculum

Galaxies near the speed of light!

It'll take a lot more than AMS to find Dark Matter

The status of the Universe: 2015 (Synopsis)