If there's one thing that I've found that's simultaneously gratifying and somewhat infuriating over the last year or so, it's that the skeptical movement has finally really noticed that anti-vaccination movement in a big way. Those of us who've been on the blogospheric front lines for the last few years have sometimes been frustrated that this issue, at least until recently, got so little attention outside of our dedicated little circle and the much larger circle of anti-vaccine zealots and the quacks who enable and encourage them.
That's not to say that there weren't some prominent skeptics who made the anti-vaccine movement one of their main causes. There's me, of course, but there are also Skeptico, Australian skeptic Peter Bowditch (who was on the front lines against the antivaccine movement long before I discovered it), Anthony Cox, and Steve Novella. Now don't get me wrong; I'm not saying that the skeptical movement ignored the antivaccine movement. However, from my perspective it seemed that skeptics paid far more attention to issues like attacks on evolution by creationists, both the young earth and intelligent design variety, the paranormal, and various other woo than it did to the anti-vaccine movement. Maybe it's a function of my being a physician, but at times I felt as though only a hardy band of us were saying anything. This is not to denigrate efforts to combat, for example, ID, but if there's one thing about the anti-vaccine movement that is different from the ID movement it's that, while the ID movement is a profound threat to science education that endangers science knowledge in future generations, the anti-vaccine movement endangers our children and public health both physically and now.
I suppose it's possible that I got the impression that the skeptical movement didn't dwell on the antivaccine movement as much as I thought it should because of the zeal of the converted. The shock that I experienced when I first discovered that there really were people who think that vaccines are incredibly dangerous compared to the diseases they protect against and that vaccines are responsible for the "epidemic" of autism was incredible. Whatever the case, part of the niche I made for myself in the blogosphere was to write about the anti-vaccine movement, something I have been doing regularly for four years now. It all really kicked into high gear when I made my first big splash with a deconstruction of Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.'s fear mongering, pseudoscience-laden screed for Salon.com and Rolling Stone.
Of course, why focus just on the skeptical movement? Physicians and public health officials here in the U.S. were pathetically late to respond to the propaganada pumped out now on a daily basis by Generation Rescue, Age of Autism, Jenny McCarthy, and a number of other anti-vaccine groups and advocates. Indeed, I really think that the CDC and AAP didn't actually start to see the movement as the threat to public health and to medical science that it is until sometime last year. At least, it seemed that they didn't wake up from their torpor until late 2008. So perhaps I'm too harsh to be focusing on the skeptical movement; after all, the CDC, AAP, and physicians should have recognized this problem long before "general purpose" skeptics, particularly since we had a model to observe in the U.K. to give us a good idea what we were in for. After all, the U.K. is where Andrew Wakefield's bad science, both fraudulent and lawyer-funded, had caused MMR vaccination rates to plummet years before the anti-vaccine movement became a major problem in the U.S., leading to the measles making a startling comeback to the point of being declared endemic again a mere 14 years after having been virtually eradicated.
Fortunately, however, over the last year, like the AAP and CDC, the skeptical movement has started to take note of the anti-vaccine movement and respond to it, and I hope that it does a better job. I attribute this increased interest largely to Phil Plait, a.k.a. the Bad Astronomer, who, since taking over leadership of the James Randi Educational Foundation, has made the anti-vaccine movement a major focus of his blogging and JREF's mission. This year, at The Amazing Meeting 7 (TAM7), he's putting JREF's efforts into reversing the low vaccination rates in Nevada:
Nevada has one of the worst vaccination rates in the nation. The reasons are multifactorial. Though there is a significant fraction of children who remain unvaccinated because of the distrust of vaccine safety spread by the current anti-vaccination movement, lack of health insurance, a large transitory population, and poverty (Las Vegas unemployment is now over 10%) also play a large role in its dismal vaccination rate.Nevada has recognized this problem and has instituted the Vaccines for Children (VFC) program, which is federally funded and provides vaccines at no cost to VFC eligible children, and the state health department holds both standing and roaming health clinics to provide vaccinations to children.
Though the vaccines provided through the VFC are free, their administration is not. Due to financial restrictions, the SNHD has had to charge an "administrative charge" to families to cover the overhead of vaccine administration. They charge $16 for the administration of one shot, and $25 for multiple vaccinations. This cost is small, but represents a significant financial barrier to families living below the poverty line, and an excuse for those above it.
It sounds to me as though Nevada needs to change its law and find a way to fund these administrative charges. However, if and until legislators there do that, JREF is going to try to help at TAM7:
What more can be done? We can limit the collateral damage of Jenny McCarthy's destructive bile. We can help protect the innocent. We can lower the barriers to vaccination so that the only people unvaccinated are either those who cannot be vaccinated due to age or health, or those who for whatever misguided reason choose not to vaccinate. Herd immunity needs to be reinforced or in some cases re-established, and it must be done one child at a time.
That is where our current project comes in to play. The JREF is going to fully subsidize the cost of vaccination to families who go to the SNHD clinics for as long as our donations last. Not only will this remove any financial barriers to vaccination, but it will also serve to heighten the awareness of the services provided by the SNHD.
I'm going to TAM7 and hope to see some of my readers there. It's the first time I've ever gone, and I'm quite jazzed about it. I'm also glad to see JREF undertake this effort, spearheaded by a skeptical pediatrician named Joe Albietz. I'm asking my readers to go to the TAM7 registration page. Scroll to near the bottom, and there are links to donate multiples of either $16 or $25. Please, give till it hurts. It may be a small thing, but if lots of you donate it could go a long way to making a dent in the number of unvaccinated children in Nevada.
If I can't appeal to your better nature, then here's another reason to do it: It'll piss off J.B. Handley and Jenny McCarthy.
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Sorry, not donating to anyone who has a "be nice to anti-vaxers" policy on his blog.
"If there's one thing that I've found that's simultaneously gratifying and somewhat infuriating over the last year or so, it's that the skeptical movement has finally really noticed that anti-vaccination movement in a big way."
And, here you've been constantly making fun of Jenny McC-cup. You should have been thanking her. Whatever else, she seems to attract attention. Maybe Megan Fox will be the next one whose chest measurement is larger than her IQ to join Green Our Vaccines.
if and until legislators there do that, JREF is going to try to help at TAM7
The legislature only meets every other year and the last one has already ended. After nasty budget and taxation fights, money for free vaccinations was not in the cards.
Mu: first off, the donations go to the vaccination effort, not Phil Plait. He's just publicizing it. Secondly, his blog commenting policy isn't "be nice to anti-vaxxers" (and you should *see* what kind of a welcome anti-vaxxers get there! it's quite spirited) it's just "be nice", period. You can say whatever you like in the comments as long as you aren't trying to metaphorically rip someone's head off.
Of course, the anti-vaxxers don't see it that way. They see people disagreeing with them, and believe they are being suppressed. But this is not true. What's happening is that the anti-vaxxers who comment at his site learn that free speech goes both ways -- they get to say what they believe and others get to systematically demolish their arguments.
Make no mistake; the Bad Astronomer is not friendly to antivaccinationism. He'll let them comment on his blog, but so does Orac, and the results are generally similar -- the blog regulars systematically pulverize their arguments.
With all due respect, what the hell are you talking about? Are you on crack?
Also, as Calli said, the donations don't go to JREF or Phil. They go to the vaccination effort that Phil and JREF are promoting. Moreover, Phil has really stepped up to the plate since taking over JREF in terms of slapping down the dangerous pseudoscience that antivaxers promote.
Really, reread at what you wrote, and tell me with a straight face that I wouldn't be completely justified in applying some not-so-Respectful Insolence to you for it, especially since yours is the first comment after the post.
Just went and donated. See you at TAM.
I'll go ahead and donate to cancel out Mu. Randi is doing a great thing with this.
I'm too broke to donate right now or I would.
I'm somewhat boggled by your discussion of how long it took the CDC and AAP to recognize the problem since I remember a pediatric inservice that I went to as an EMT in the late '90s where the pediatrician giving the talk warned us that pertussis looked to be making a comeback because of falling vaccination rates.
Thanks for the support here, folks. I appreciate it, and I appreciate the kind words, Orac. I'm looking forward to meeting you at TAM.
And Mu, all I'll add to what the others said is that if you cannot do the right thing because you disagree with a policy on politeness, I'm thinking the problem lies not with the policy.
Mu,
I comment at Bad Astronomy in addition to here. I do not comment any differently there, than I do here. Apparently, I have not violated the policy. I think you got some bad information on this policy.
I donated. I regret not being able to go this year, especially I would really like to meet you, Orac. You will have a blast--hundreds and hundreds of freethinkers! A welcome respite from the woo-filled world outside of rational thinking.
The power that the anti-vaccination movement is aggregating is scary. I shouldn't be alarmist, but when they've got media giants like Oprah supporting their crap, it gives one pause.
I join in urging others to donate, too. A few years ago, vaccination was called the greatest public health achievement of the 20th Century. It's so effective and so simple. I am not a physician and have never seen a child with Hib meningitis or tetanus, but I have seen a very short video of a baby with pertussis, fighting for every breath and coughing so violently he vomited. I could only watch it once. Who would oppose immunizations after seeing something like that? (I know I shouldn't ask rhetorical questions, as I'm guessing some antivaxer will come charging out of the shadows, barking about toxins and overwhelmed immune systems and the Big Pharma Conspiracy. But so what?)
I do go on. Excuse the rant.
Argh. Please add a "since" into the first sentence, between "especially" and "I". I'm supposed to be a writer, sort of; one would think I would be better at proofreading!
OK, I admit I'm a moron, but I couldn't find the link to donate. I'm using Chrome, but I also tried in IE.
I can only hope that Mu misread your post Orac.
I am not a physician and have never seen a child with Hib meningitis or tetanus, but I have seen a very short video of a baby with pertussis, fighting for every breath and coughing so violently he vomited.
Before the vaccination came to be, my son had Hib at 4 months old. If that vaccine had been available, I would have given it to him myself, I'd never even heard of the disease until he got it. But after I heard how lucky I was to get him to the hospital at the first sign of danger, to have an on-call doc who was up on the latest literature, and a facility that even ran the test (not common back then)--If none of those things had fallen into place, if I had gone with the "Give him some Tylenol, see how he is in a day," my son would have had brain damage or died.
I think it's shocking that people don't understand how dangerous HiB, polio, measles &etc. really are. Maybe if any of them had grown up before vaccines (or when fewer disease had vaccines), they might appreciate the horrors that previous generations suffered and would have done anything to prevent. Does Jenny Bimbo really think that autism is worse than paralysis from polio. Or death?
If she says yes, then she's the stupidest person on earth. Or the biggest liar.
Your fight against the anti-vaxxers is magnificent, Orac, helped by many others as it is. A year ago, I thought homeopathy was stupid but harmless; now I know it's harmful. And in this country, the UK, people like me are getting vocally angry at anyone we find who somehow thinks that vaccinations are dangerous, or that "natural" measles is in any way a good thing. It will, unfortunately, take a case or two of a dead child, resulting from a parent's refusal to vaccinate, before public anger (so easily roused over pedophiles or asylum seekers) kicks in.
But I have a question for you and your engaged readers - what exactly are the common side effects of vaccinations - that is, what's the worst that can happen, and what is usually a mild reaction? And are any of the side effects, such as soreness, or possibly a mild-temperature, to be compared with getting a mild version of the disaese itself? I imagine that anyone tasked with administering vaccinations could well have given thousands of them without noticing any significant ill-effects, but in practice, what is the worst you have seen?
I've tried to look this up, but unfortunately as anyone with a "casual" interest in meidical issues will know, finding reliable "true" information about vaccine safety on the internet can be very hard.
Thankyou. It's all ammunition I intend to use.
Your fight against the anti-vaxxers is magnificent, Orac, helped by many others as it is. A year ago, I thought homeopathy was stupid but harmless; now I know it's harmful. And in this country, the UK, people like me are getting vocally angry at anyone we find who somehow thinks that vaccinations are dangerous, or that "natural" measles is in any way a good thing. It will, unfortunately, take a case or two of a dead child, resulting from a parent's refusal to vaccinate, before public anger (so easily roused over pedophiles or asylum seekers) kicks in.
But I have a question for you and your engaged readers - what exactly are the common side effects of vaccinations - that is, what's the worst that can happen, and what is usually a mild reaction? And are any of the side effects, such as soreness, or possibly a mild-temperature, to be compared with getting a mild version of the disaese itself? I imagine that anyone tasked with administering vaccinations could well have given thousands of them without noticing any significant ill-effects, but in practice, what is the worst you have seen?
I've tried to look this up, but unfortunately as anyone with a "casual" interest in meidical issues will know, finding reliable "true" information about vaccine safety on the internet can be very hard.
Thankyou. It's all ammunition I intend to use.
Great initiative. I hope a lot of people take them up on it, and get their children vaccinated.
I'm not. I don't think he took it far enough. I think it took too long for them to recognize the problem, and I'm still not convinced they are doing enough to fight it.
When Jim Carey can get away with an accusation that the AAP has an "agenda" to maximize the profits of the pharmaceutical companies, with the implication that they are doing it at the expense of children's safety, and the AAP doesn't forcefully respond with indignation, I think they are being way too passive.
I think the AAP and CDC needs to get on a major campaign to inform the public that they are relying on the advice of the world's best experts in the area of children's infectious diseases, and they don't base their policies on the opinions of some two bit comedic actors or nude models.
The AAP has given far too much deference to complete idiots. They need to assert their authority.
AnthonyK - the types of side-effects observed for vaccinations depend on the type of vaccines. In the most extreme cases, there can be even brain damage, although this is (obviously) very, very rare. When our son goes for vaccinations, we get a big handout of information that talks about the potential sideeffects and their likelyhood.
The most common side effect for most infant vaccines is typically mild fever for a day or two.
Donna -- it took me a while to find it too. For some reason I expected to see a neat little graphic saying "Vaccine donation" or something like that. Instead, look down the list of events you can subscribe to as part of the conference. You'll see the vaccine packages added there a line or two under "Fundraising luncheon with James Randi" .. which is sadly sold out.
Crack is wack, Orac!
Clare, thank you. I finally found it.
Michael Jackson has reputedly died not after a vaccine but simple injections.
Do the simple "inert" additives like peanut oil and milk products in our vaccines cause respectively fatal peanut allergy and milk allergy?
"Do the simple "inert" additives like peanut oil and milk products in our vaccines cause respectively fatal peanut allergy and milk allergy?"
No, for the same reason that "ether" in our vaccines doesn't make us sleepy, and "antifreeze" in vaccines doesn't allow us to get started more quickly on winter mornings.
None of these things exist in vaccines. Of course that doesn't stop antivaxers from inventing pretend ingredients.
I really can't afford to donate - living on student loans is a bitch. But I have two children who were vaccinated, one at the cost of the state, because we were fortunate to live in a state that pays for it. And while things are painfully tight, I cannot in good conscience not pay to help another child get vaccinated.
This is an important issue and one that has seen far too much of the wrong side touted in mass media. I can't do a whole lot to raise awareness - talking to people about it when it comes up and throwing it up once in a while on my little blog isn't much. Especially given that my few readers are not the folks who need to hear about this. But these are the only things that I have been able to do.
So I am very excited and will sleep a little better tonight, knowing that I have ensured that at least one child who wouldn't have been vaccinated, will be.
John Fryer said "Michael Jackson has reputedly died not after a vaccine but simple injections."
Folks, this is just Fryer doing what he always does, makes up stuff. His imagination gets an idea, and he does not even bother to look it up.
See this example where the claimed a country did not vaccinate babies, until he was shown to be very very wrong (actually it took posting that vaccine chart multiple blogs after Fryer's deliberate misinformation to get him to stop):
http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/?p=1781#comment-55613
To quote RJ further down that thread of how Fryer works: "The expression here is âtalking out of onesâ assâ."
See ya at TAM. Can't wait.
My sister is coming over from Australia for it (oh and to visit me as well :).
Now I only live 4 hours away, how could I not go?
I'll probably donate once we are there.
Peter Bowditch is a really nice guy, know him from Sydney Skeptics in the Pub.
See ya at TAM. Can't wait.
My sister is coming over from Australia for it (oh and to visit me as well :).
Now I only live 4 hours away, how could I not go?
I'll probably donate once we are there.
Peter Bowditch is a really nice guy, know him from Sydney Skeptics in the Pub.
ya know... DuWayne, I can't really afford to donate a vaccine either. But as a smoker donating $1/pack to something (I hope children's healthcare, but wouldn't bet on it) I felt that the best thing I could do for my current and future grandchildren was donate toward herd immunity.
So... I'm going to have to smoke fewer cigarettes this month. Nobody but me is sorry 'bout that, right?
Or, another way to look at it is that I'll have to drink less, or cheaper wine. OR that those who are not related to me will benefit because of my taxes or indulgence.
Frankly, my grandchild is taken care of because of her parents' planning. I contribute little.
I am still making monthly payments on my childrens' education, so I'm not feeling too guilty about smoking and drinking and paying for the healthcare of children not related to me.
Just once, I'd like for someone, in government or science or medicine to admit that my son's smoking is therapeutic and not addictive. I think it's going to get damned hard and/or damned expensive to get a therapeutic dose of nicotine.
coz said "Peter Bowditch is a really nice guy, know him from Sydney Skeptics in the Pub."
I definitely agree, even when he outed my real name on Usenet. I have never met him, and someday I hope I can. I just know him from email exchanges (oh, and I go to his website, read all about Skeptibear's trip to TAM, listened to him on the Skeptic Tank, the Tank vodcast, the recent video of him as the Pope in a parade... no, I am not stalking... really.., the entire Pacific Ocean and the Equator separates us, why are you looking at me that way?).
Anti-vax-maniax kill innocent infants.
This is the funniest thing that I have ever read here. Are children dropping like flies in Las Vegas? Is there a rise in Hep B deaths in Las Vegas? Are the children suffering from Chicken Pox tragedies? Big LOL!
ps. If you want an ounce of respect, I would consider not linking to a article with a freakish picture of some psychotic looking man on the page. Seriously, the groups involved with this would be well advised to be more careful in what they post. If I was a parent who was considering this as a good option, I would be scared away by such a freak in the article.
In case people aren't sure of which picture I am referring to, it is here:
http://tinyurl.com/nwklfb
Talk about a freakish picture...
It makes you look foolish.
Freakish is as freakish does, "Hilarious". It seems someone doesn't understand the concept of disease prevention.
For the record, I find the picture of Joe Albietz rather adorable. More importantly, he's a pediatrician serving an undervaccinated community, asking for the support of his fellow skeptics to improve this situation, which will ultimately benefit the global 'herd'. Maybe your fellow clowns can rally 'round the old ad hominem flag, 'Hilarious', but I don't think it's going to convert anyone over here.
How lame can you get? Making fun of the Dr. Albietz's appearance? What are you, five years old?
Between that and your trolling, is it any wonder that no one here takes you seriously?
"How lame can you get? Making fun of the Dr. Albietz's appearance? What are you, five years old"?
Coming from you Orac... that's quite funny. Typically you are the one who lowers yourself to the level of making fun of peoples' looks, professions, etc. You have just outed yourself as being a HUGE hypocrite. How does it feel? Having said that... let me repeat... *IF* the intent is to involve the typical person in your mission to rid Las Vegas of the Chicken Pox/Hep B scourges, your best bet is to get a professional picture of this man. You (or the people responsible for this mission) ruin the intent by having a picture posted in which the doctor looks 15 with spikey hair and is looking freakishly into the camera smirking like a weirdo. He may be a normal looking guy... get a better picture. Just trying to help. :)
Name one time when I've made fun of people's looks.
Obvious troll has obvious reading comprehension problems.
Oh Orac, you and I both know that you have belittled people for their looks and their professions, etc... Please don't get all uppidy with me. You are a huge hypocrite. I am just telling it like it is... The picture makes this doctor look like a freak. End of story.
Obvious troll:
And then obvious troll runs bravely away when again asked to present actual proof.
*plays harp and sings badly* Brave Sir/Dame troll ran away...
Hey hilarious,
Would you prefer more people looked like this?
http://www.flightforlife.co.uk/images/Les-ChickenPox.jpg
Moron.
No, Hilarious probably wants our kids to look like the one in the photo gallery here:
http://babycharlotte.co.nz/
I have changed my name to Not Hilarious for this particular post.
I don't think that it is smart for you to play the tit for tat game here folks. How about this little boy who died from an adverse reaction to his Hep B vaccine:
http://iansvoice.org/default.aspx
Or, how about the child who died the night after his "well baby" visit where he received numerous vaccines....? Ah, yes.... SIDS... Sure....
Back to the odd looking picture of the doctor ... I'm surprised that you can't see that this doctor should look more professional :)
The plural of anecdote is anecdote, not data.
WTF are you talking about, not hilarious?
My kid has been in and out of children's hospitals for years. Some of his doctors actually dress like CLOWNS on the odd occasion in order to make children laugh!
Go away.
I vaguely recall Orac making some comment, in a manner not exactly flattering, about Jenny McCartney not looking as good as she did in her youth. Maybe that's what (not)-hilarious is referring to?
It reminds me of Common Sue who claimed that a vaccine killed a kid. Her evidence was a poster shown at the Green Our Vaccines rally. No medical statements, no official reports: just a poster.
Also, looking at that webpage there were other issues that could be have caused problems, starting with meconium in the amniotic fluid.
Anyway, some more stuff:
http://archpedi.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/153/12/1279
HCN: It is Common Sue, back for more LOLing and whargggblish non-sequitors.
Appearance is everything. I used to believe in modern physics until I saw this photo:
http://www.egge.net/~savory/einstein55.jpg
(yeah, I know there's an even sillier photo, but really if you can't comb your hair right you don't deserve any respect in the first place).
Seriously, it's only if one's cupboard of facts is bare is it necessary to haul out juvenile insults, like mocking someone's appearance. It's also "uppidy". :)
"The plural of anecdote is anecdote, not data"
Oh right, I forgot.... The plural of anecdote is not data UNLESS it supports your theory that any and all vaccines are completely safe. You idiots post links to sites where children have had problems with the diseases that we have vaccines for and it's perfectly legit. I do the same thing in regards to vaccine injury and I get the "the plural of anecdote is anectdote, not data" bullshite. Fools.
"It reminds me of Common Sue who claimed that a vaccine killed a kid".
Are you denying that children are killed by routine vaccinations, HCN? Don't be such a dumbass.
Electrical sockets have killed a kid too. ZOMG time to get rid of electricity in the houses!!! No matter how much good it does, we cannot take ANY risk whatsoever!!!
Please tell me that you are not posting this from a computer plugged into the wall Common Sue. Think of the children!
Common Sue said "Are you denying that children are killed by routine vaccinations, HCN? Don't be such a dumbass. "
When have I ever denied that there is a one in a several million chance of a vaccine killing a kid? All I am saying is that you are misrepresenting the risks. And I do not believe that the paper I posted was a list of anecdotes.
Now you still have not answered the following questions:
What real actual factual evidence do you have that the DTaP is worse than diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis (the latter is up to killing almost two dozen American babies per year)?
What real actual factual evidence do you have that the MMR has a higher risk of than rubella, mumps and measles (the latter two carry a real 1 out of 1000 risk of real damage from permanent deafness to real death)?
Remember the evidence must be available as a paper I can get at my local medical school library. Not a website (which if you read was not even close to SIDS), a picture of a poster at a rally, not a lawyer's office website, or a paper in Medical Hypothesis or by someone whose main income comes from lawyers (Geier, Wakefield).
Common Sue, is this an anecdote:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15889991 ... "An antivaccine movement developed in Japan as a consequence of increasing numbers of adverse reactions to whole-cell pertussis vaccines in the mid-1970s. After two infants died within 24 h of the vaccination from 1974 to 1975, the Japanese government temporarily suspended vaccinations. Subsequently, the public and the government witnessed the re-emergence of whooping cough, with 41 deaths in 1979. This series of unfortunate events revealed to the public that the vaccine had, in fact, been beneficial."
and
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5520a4.htm ... "Parotitis was reported in 870 (66%) of the 1,327 patients for whom such data were available. Data regarding mumps complications and hospitalizations are incomplete. However, complications have included 27 reports of orchitis, 11 meningitis, four encephalitis, four deafness, and one each of oophoritis, mastitis, pancreatitis, and unspecified complications."
"Electrical sockets have killed a kid too. ZOMG time to get rid of electricity in the houses!!!"
ZOMG... Chicken Pox have killed a kid too. Shoot up everyone and combine it with other live virus vaccines... Don't worry about any consequences.
In addition to donating, today I've done something else to help little kids whose families are too poor to get them vaccinated.
I got *myself* vaccinated. I got TDaP today, so I can rest assured I will not transmit pertussis to a defenseless infant.
Now I'm gonna go pay for some more kids to get the whole series of shots in Las Vegas.
Common Sue said "ZOMG... Chicken Pox have killed a kid too."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17991685 ... "RESULTS: 188 cases were notified for the surveillance period, of which 112 (0.82/100 000 children/year) met the case definition and were not duplicates. Confirmed cases had a median age of 3 years (range 0-14). The complications were: bacteraemia/septic shock (n = 30), pneumonia (n = 30), encephalitis (n = 26), ataxia (n = 25), toxic shock syndrome/toxin-mediated disease (n = 14), necrotising fasciitis (n = 7), purpura fulminans/disseminated coagulopathy (n = 5), fulminant varicella (n = 5) and neonatal varicella (n = 3). 52 children (46%) had additional bacterial infections. Six deaths were due, or possibly due, to varicella, including one intrauterine death. Four of the other five children who died (ages 2-14 years) had a pre-existing medical condition."
and
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18419384 ... "Of the 26,290 varicella cases reported between 1995 and 2005, 170 cases resulted in VRHs, including 1 case that resulted in death. Both VRH rates per 100,000 population and complications during VRH per 100,000 population decreased significantly between the early vaccination period (1995-1998) and the middle/late vaccination period (1999-2005)."
It's not Orac that did it, but the 2nd comment on this posting:
"And, here you've been constantly making fun of Jenny McC-cup. You should have been thanking her. Whatever else, she seems to attract attention. Maybe Megan Fox will be the next one whose chest measurement is larger than her IQ to join Green Our Vaccines."
Is pretty much by definition judging people based on their appearance.
calli arcale,
I got *myself* vaccinated. I got TDaP today, so I can rest assured I will not transmit pertussis to a defenseless infant.
I'm not sure you'd know whether you did or didn't. There is plenty in the literature to suggest that pertussis vaccine does not prevent transmission.
I found this to be a rather interesting read:
http://asi23.ent.psu.edu/onb1/publ/kirimanjeswara/kirimanjeswara2005.pdf
HCN,
Thanks for the info. Now here's the issue ... How many children have been killed by vaccines and have had it labeled "SIDS"? Sadly, we will never know. That's the problem.
Now, see, HCN, almost none of those kids died. Most of them just experienced an extremely unpleasant life-threatening illness and/or were left permanently disabled or disfigured. Anti-vaxers can't be expected to care about such trifles as the suffering of children!
I sent $100.
Will be getting my booster TDaP in '13.
It is unbelievable what people will do to maintain untenable beliefs. You know what else we'll never know, "Hilarious"? How many kids died in car crashes after vaccination.
You see, my friend's friend said that some kids are so screwed up after vaccines that their parents can hardly contain themselves. Then they try and drive home, but are more likely to crash because of their emotional state. These kids are listed as dying or injured via car accidents, but how many of those injuries are ultimately from vaccines? We'll never know, and that's the problem.
Vaccines = teh EVIL, obviously.
Any child who is injured by diseases that we have vaccines for obviously has bad genes.
"Hilarious...", you aren't even making sense anymore. I'm sorry I even responded to you sarcastically.
Okay, hilarious, you're a eugenicist?
That explains a lot.
anon said "There is plenty in the literature to suggest that pertussis vaccine does not prevent transmission."
And yet all you had to offer was an old mouse study. Yesterday I harvested the cherries of of my tree... I certainly got a better yield with my cherry picking than you. Because there has been no rain for a month, they are very sweet cherries with very no cracks.
Oh, and it is well known that the pertussis vaccine in only about 85% effective, and does wear off, which is why adult vaccination is being implemented:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18564017 ... "Pertussis is an important cause of morbidity and mortality, and its incidence has been increasing in adolescents and adults over the past two decades. Waning immunity in adolescents and adults may be partially responsible. Adults can suffer significant illness from pertussis and its complications, such as pneumonia, rib fractures and syncope. Moreover, adults serve as a source of disease for infants, who are more vulnerable to severe complications and even death. The economic burden of pertussis is substantial, in terms of both medical and nonmedical costs. Fortunately, the burden of pertussis disease can now be safely and effectively reduced by vaccinating adults with tetanus-diphtheria-acellular pertussis (Tdap) vaccine. Further research is needed to elucidate the role of vaccination in pregnant women and those over 65 years of age, and also to determine whether further booster doses of Tdap are needed."
and
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17612417 ... "A compartmental, age-structured mathematical model was developed and recent US pertussis epidemiology data were used to evaluate the impact on pertussis infection rates of routine and targeted adult immunization strategies. Model simulations predict that the implementation of adolescent immunization only could reverse the current rise in pertussis infection rates but may lead to a resurgence of pertussis in subsequent decades. In contrast, inclusion of a routine adult strategy is likely to lead to sustained control of pertussis. Routine adult vaccination could control the disease even with relatively low coverage rates of 40% for routine vaccination of all adults every 10 years, or 65% for a targeted vaccination of close contacts of newborns completed by one booster dose for all adults. The model also predicts that the optimal age for this booster dose is 40 years. These results support the 2006 American Academy of Immunization Practices' recommendations for adolescent and adult vaccination against pertussis."
Oh, and yes, Common Sue is a eugenicist. She refuses to believe that celiac and diabetes have a genetic factor. Like all anti-vaxers she believes any deficit in her offspring are from an outside factor (vaccines or other outside "toxin"). She also feels that any child who has a real genetic disorder (like mine) is better off dead.
Hilarious:
What evidence do you have that vaccine deaths are being misdiagnosed as SIDS? The time frame during which SIDS occurs overlaps with vaccinations, so by random chance alone some babies are going to die of SIDS soon after getting vaccinated.
And as for bad genes: how do you tell when the environmental factors (e.g., bad nutrition) that contribute death from disease like measles have been reduced to the point that the only remaining factor is genes? How do developing and third world nations tell that they've advanced to the point where they should ditch vaccination?
HCN,
And yet all you had to offer was an old mouse study. Yesterday I harvested the cherries of of my tree... I certainly got a better yield with my cherry picking than you. Because there has been no rain for a month, they are very sweet cherries with very no cracks.
It's not that old, and the fact that it doesn't provoke phagocytosis is enough to cause me to pause. And it's kind of disturbing. And fairly well known that this vaccine doesn't prevent transmission, but in fact leaves the vaccinee subclinical. Asymptomatic carriers of b. pertussis do nothing to protect the very young.
From the first PMID: Fortunately, the burden of pertussis disease can now be safely and effectively reduced by vaccinating adults with tetanus-diphtheria-acellular pertussis (Tdap) vaccine.
Well, no need to cherry pick with Harvard Pilgrim - they've consistently documented issues with vaccine uptake. Since very few people likely have full text of the this study, and it happens to be economic in nature, perhaps you can tell us if it meets the guidance outlined here:
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/acip/downloads/economics-studies-guida…
The second study has Sanofi Pasteur as an author, and is based on a mathematical model.
I'd likely put more weight in the lab, but that's just me.
anon, said "I'd likely put more weight in the lab, but that's just me."
Which is silly. To figure out why read Paul Offit's "Autism's False Prophets" for an explanation of why epidemiological studies are better than lab studies.
By the way, full studies online are usually only available after a year. But if you want, here are some full studies showing the financial impact of vaccines (check the tables):
http://archpedi.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/159/12/1136
...and the effect of voluntary exceptions on pertussis incidence:
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/296/14/1757
I am out of URLs, but go back and read about a more recent study that show areas with less vaccination get more pertussis. Orac wrote about on January 23, 2009 in a blog titled "Left is right and up is down: An actual pro-vaccine article on The Huffington Post?" The paper is: S. B. Omer, K. S. Enger, L. H. Moulton, N. A. Halsey, S. Stokley, D. A. Salmon (2008). Geographic Clustering of Nonmedical Exemptions to School Immunization Requirements and Associations With Geographic Clustering of Pertussis American Journal of Epidemiology, 168 (12), 1389-1396
PMID: 18922998
Also, there is an even more recent study that Orac wrote about on May 26, 2009 in a posting titled "One more time: Vaccine refusal endangers children". The paper is:
Jason M. Glanz, PhD, David L. McClure, PhD, David J. Magid, MD, MPH, Matthew F. Daley, MD, Eric K. France, MD, MSPH, Daniel A. Salmon, PhD, MPH, & Simon J. Hambidge, MD, PhD (2009). Parental Refusal of Pertussis Vaccination Is Associated With an Increased Risk of Pertussis Infection in Children Pediatrics, 123 (6), 1446-1451
PMID: 19482753
Epidemiologic studies, such as those cited above, seem to show that increased vaccine uptake is indeed associated with reduced transmission. Besides which, it sure looked from that mouse study that the mice were less likely to transmit it if they'd been vaccinated. It wasn't 0% chance, but it was still an improvement.
Besides, I've got asthma. I *really* don't want pertussis, even as an adult.
Thanks, Calli Arcale. I basically saw that is was a mouse study, and really only glanced at it (plus I knew about the other studies that showed the opposite that anon was claiming).
I will get the Tdap when I am due for my tetanus booster in 2015. All of my kids, aged 15 to 20, have had the Tdap.
I've never quite understood the rationalization contortions eugenicist anti-vaxers go through. Any kid that dies from measles or whathaveyou has "bad genes", but a child who can't handle micrograms or less of whatever toxin du jour doesn't?
Scientizzle said "Any kid that dies from measles or whathaveyou has "bad genes", but a child who can't handle micrograms or less of whatever toxin du jour doesn't?"
We have all asked that question.
Perhaps Common Sue would think the child that she thinks got diabetes type 1 or celiac from the vaccine (still not shown to be proven) may have been better off by being killed by measles, pertussis or Hib.
I challenged a person who was advocating the death of children who could not survive the diseases to name which of if his children he would be willing to sacrifice on another blog. He never answered, see:
http://scienceblogs.com/ethicsandscience/2009/06/vaccine_refuseniks_are…
I think it is because they never think one of their children could actually become die or become permanently disabled from a disease... they just are to sensitive to a weakened form of the disease. Go figure.
I'm only just now getting over a bout of Pertussis. Bah!
Yes HCN, there are numerous contortions in antivax logic.
If a weakened strain of a virus will make someone's child "so ill", what would a dose of the full strength "natural" infection do?
If the risks of getting a rare side effect from a vaccine (say mumps vaccine meningitis, 1:23000 doses of the old Urabe strain) are so terrible and unimaginably frightening, why risk the 1:20 chance of exactly the same type of meningitis from "natural" mumps?
(New mumps vaccine causes NO cases of meningitis)
I have never ever been able to comprehend why the real and often serious effects of infections are deemed "nature's way" and are always regarded as harmless, inconsequential risks, yet the far, far lower risks of a far milder effect from vaccine strain of the germ are talked about in terms of "serious brain damage!", or "life-threatening bleeding disorder!"
And remember these are for illnesses that "everyone" would get just like in the old days (like measles, mumps, rubella) so they can't even argue the risk of encountering the disease is so tiny the risks from vaccine are correspondingly higher (eg smallpox).
The general public's concepts of risk assessment leaves a lot to be desired, but the antivaxxers go out of their way to cultivate new heights in malignant stupidity about the concept.
I did something very stupid when my kids were tiny. Because I was fresh in Germany I just logged on at the nearest paediatrician. This guy would not do the pertussis and MMR jabs. He said they were unnecessary, outmoded, having the disease was better, etc. Well, he's the doctor, he must know.
So they got pertussis, which is heart-breaking when you watch your own babies nearly suffocating. Then they gave it to me. It is lung-breaking and lasts about 3 months for adults. Then I changed doctor and got the vaccinations done. Too late, they got rubella and gave it to my husband. That was a lonely 3 weeks.
All you readers, get everyone you know vaccinated. Check your record right now and get up-to-date. Today! And anyone who wants to prevent other people's children from being protected, I hope you get pertussis and measles and rubella at the same time.
Hey, natural is good, so there must be something wrong with the artificially weakened strain. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go prepare my organic hemlock tea.
(NOTE: To anyone who doesn't get the joke, hemlock is poisonous. Do not attempt to consume hemlock or anything made from it)
*Pours freshly-made hemlock tea down the drain*
...it sounded tasty. Good thing I came back an read the rest of your comment!
Wow! Just Wow.... I actually thought that you guys were intelligent enough to recognize sarcasm.
Here's the thing. I absolutely believe that toxic assaults to children (including vaccines) can trigger autoimmunity, neurological disorders and even {gasp} death in certain children. I hear over and over again about how autism and these other "disorders" are only genetic in nature (which is complete bs)... So, my point was to make a statement in regards to "bad genes" as it relates to not being able to handle certain diseases/viruses, etc.... Sorry you missed the point.
As for HCN... What a dope you are... Eugenicist my ass. Don't be such a fool by saying that I would ever say that any child with a genetic disorder is better off dead. You should see a psychiatrist.
The trick to being sarcastic is to be much more over-the-top than you usually are. Try not having such absurd actual beliefs, and then maybe sarcasm will work out better for you.
"The trick to being sarcastic is to be much more over-the-top than you usually are. Try not having such absurd actual beliefs, and then maybe sarcasm will work out better for you".
Hey bob... Nice deflection. Let's keep in mind... it is YOU who wasn't intelligent enough to pick up on sarcasm.
HCN,
The point about economic studies, and those that deal with epidemiology or mathematical models, is that they have the capacity to contain a fair amount of statistical manipulation if you know what to look for. This is why the ACIP had to establish guidance to prevent not only observation bias, but disclosure requirements and the like for any consideration to public health officials or otherwise. Statements like, "Fortunately, the burden of pertussis disease can now be safely and effectively reduced by vaccinating adults with tetanus-diphtheria-acellular pertussis (Tdap) vaccine." are directional and leading.
If vaccination status affects whether or not the host can sufficiently clear the pathogen, that is just as noteworthy as any alleged financial impact nonvaccination may, or may not have.
I'm not particularly concerned about vaccines administered to people over the age of two anyway, we've been doing that for a long time. The simple fact is that pertussis remains endemic despite high vaccination rates. It seems logical (convenient) to address the adolescent and older population, because we aren't vaccinating them routinely (herd immunity seems to be selectively applied depending on disease and/or argument). It might also be because the vaccine isn't all that great at preventing transmission.
http://www.mycentraljersey.com/article/20090114/NEWS/901140351/1002/new…
Beckley said that in this particular outbreak, all of the children identified as infected had received all of their childhood vaccinations.
Pertussis vaccine certainly can and does create a carrier state in its host, notably young vaccinated children. It's long been noted that they are asymptomatic reservoirs.
That's nice, dear. Your belief and $4 will get you a Venti Cappucino at Starbucks.
anon, you actually countered several real studies with a newspaper article? Wow, that is really underwhelming.
Linkies to Orac's discussion of the more recent studies:
Geographic Clustering of Nonmedical Exemptions to School Immunization Requirements and Associations With Geographic Clustering of Pertussis
Parental Refusal of Pertussis Vaccination Is Associated With an Increased Risk of Pertussis Infection in Children
Chris,
I was chastised for the age of previous content. This outbreak is too recent for the MMWR, if it even makes it in... ironically reporting 5 cases of Hib (and only 2 unvaccinated) seems to make its way around the globe in record breaking speed.
I'm familiar with the two posts you've linked. Epi spin applied to vaccine declination is actually overwhelming, and hardly unbiased. Leading an audience is having quite the unintended effect.
Pertussis vaccine failure has been regularly documented since its inception, not much sleuthing needed either which is why I didn't bother. I'm still not going to, I'm not in denial about it.
Direct URL for vaccine donations: http://tinyurl.com/de4dmq
anon
The limits of pertussis vaccination is exactly why herd immunity must be maintained. Hence the point of those papers. When the paper came out showing unvaccinated kids are 23 times more likely to get pertussis, some questioned why more kids who vaccinated got pertussis when Orac blogged it (see link above), I posted some basic epidemiology math... reproduced below.
Some herd immunity arithmetic:
Take 1000 people (ignoring the infants under 2 months who cannot be vaccinated, or babies under a year who can only be partially vaccinated), if 5% refuse vaccines then the numbers are:
950 vaccinated persons (assuming full schedule)
50 unvaccinated persons
The pertussis vaccine is actually only 80% effective at worse, so the numbers are:
760 protected persons
190 vaccinated but vulnerable persons
50 unvaccinated persons
There is an outbreak and it gets spread to 20% of the population, then:
760 protected persons without pertussis
38 vaccinated persons get pertussis
152 vaccinated person who may still get pertussis
10 unvaccinated persons get pertussis
40 unvaccinated persons who may still get pertussis.
This is how more vaccinated persons get the disease than unvaccinated. Even if the infection rate was at 100%, there would still be more of the vaccinated getting the diseases because there are more of them!
So, if those who've gotten the pertussis vaccine (and had it take hold) aren't immune to the disease, but become sub-clinical carriers, then... Stop the vaccinations, so that people who would have gotten sub-clinical cases will get clinical cases, and since the clinical cases will be obvious they can be isolated to prevent the infection from spreading? Didn't they already do that before there was a pertussis vaccine, to not much effect? Or do you have some other suggestion?
So, not content with a degree in medicine you also picked up one in English?
Well I, for one, am impressed, not only with your erudition, and the extent of your learning (I mean, steady on, you must be full by now!) but also the way you have marshalled all your skills to win the argument. Although this is a complex issue, sometimes difficult to understand, you seem to have grasped all the arguments and summed them up in English which is not merely utilitarian but also beautiful. Reading a few of your posts reminds me of Shakespeare for the langualge, SJ Gould for the scientific content, and Patience Strong for the poestic feel: more than that, you have convinced me that Orac and all those Studied-for-years-do-the-work-every-day-hard-won-expertise thing are talking through their rectums.
Good on you, aptly-named "hilarious" you tell those "experts" what you think and feel because, in aetiology feelings count.
Thankyou for your contribuions; as a result of them, I am now a wiser man.
Hilarious,
there is good evidence that vaccination reduces the incidence of SIDS.
@91
The problem is that for the first 1-2 weeks pertussis can look like a cold, not becoming the characteristic cough in kids until later, and never in some adults; this means an unsuspecting index case spreading it all over the community for up to 2 weeks. @ 85, I agree that we need to focus on adults and adolescent immunization to increase herd immunity, but given that the highest mortality is in children under 2, it would be a fatal error to use this as a rationale to avoid vaccinating this population;especially given the dearth of evidence of any real neurologic consequences to the vaccine.
@ 85; if the vaccine is all that bad at preventing transmission, why are we talking about herd immunity at all? What would be the rationale for immunizing adolescents,which you're not opposed to?Its fairly straight forward if you have immunity that is not complete you still want to minimize exposure to minimize risk;it doesn't mean the vaccine doesn't have value in the communities population.There will still be some finite risk so I don't see the point of the Mynewjersey.com article.So don't vaccinate and rather than pockets of cases it will be more widespread?
Dr. P, the great and brave Sir "anon" has bravely run away because we had the audacity to question its beliefs and ask for some more of evidence that there was "plenty in the literature to suggest that pertussis vaccine does not prevent transmission."
Especially since it only posted a mouse study that really did not say what it thought it did. Oh, and a style standard for reports.
AnthonyK @ 92
Now that's sarcasm. Bravo, sir, bravo.
"Thanks for the info. Now here's the issue ... How many children have been killed by vaccines and have had it labeled "SIDS"? Sadly, we will never know. That's the problem."
Ah, the old SIDS/vaccine connection based on that reliable VAERS database. Interesting that the majority of SIDS cases reported to the VAERS database also included co-sleeping, a well known cause of sudden infant death while sleeping via asphyxiation, in the description. Of course, it couldn't be due to that because it's so "natural."
All of you who are pro vaccines must be for big government to control you like robots. Either that or you dont have kids. You must not believe that the government uses hormones and pesticides in your food either. Now im not against vaccines. Im just against a 2 month old baby getting 7 of them at one time. Which contains more mercury that would have an adult very ill. Im for alternative scheduling for vaccines. Getting less vaccines at each visit. And individualize combo vaccines. And using vaccines with no thimerosal which is mercury. Hep b can wait until after 2 unless the mother had it. hep b is usually transferred by sex or sharing needles. come on guys!! be smart does a baby need that right away? Dont you know its about money with the government. Everything is about money. Drs will tell you anything. Drs in the 40's and 50's use to say that smoking was good for you. They even had commercials with doctors smoking. Now look what happened to the tobacco industry. alot of them got sued. So before any of you go on donating and wasting your money, open your eyes and look at the bigger picture. just dont be blind then make your decision. Dont judge people because they worry about their kids. Watch some videos of kids who were pefectly healthy and now how have autism or kids that were healthy and died a few hours after vaccines. Be in their shoes. If that happened to your kid would you be as quick to say that it was not due to vaccines as the drs are? I dont think so. and if so then you are just as bad as the people you are trying to knock. (only god could judge me)
Wow, you spent the last several months typing that?
While you were writing that long crank comment, there have been several updates on this blog. Did you know that pediatric vaccines have been thimerosal free for several years? And that Wakefield was found guilty by the UK's General Medical Council and actually fired by Thoughtful House. Oh, and two sets of Autism Omnibus test cases were dismissed. As was Barbara Loe Fisher's lawsuit against a doctor and a journalist.
Though before you catch up on things that have happened since last summer could you provide actual evidence of this statement: "died a few hours after vaccines." Thank you.