Jenny needs me again!

You are a family who has benefited from biomedical interventions.

So what happens if you are already a Rescue Angel ⢠but it turns out that your kid is still very much autistic? Do they have periodic Angel Audits ⢠or do they work on the honor system?

I know they dropped John Best from the roster but even an extremist organization like GR has it's limits. Or do you suppose it's because John has been chelating his kid for seven years and it hasn't helped him to be less autistic?

Mother warriors? It's like gruesome parody of every distopian novel ever. But they got the framing nice and emotive on this one.

I know they dropped John Best from the roster but even an extremist organization like GR has it's limits. Or do you suppose it's because John has been chelating his kid for seven years and it hasn't helped him to be less autistic?

It's probably got more to do with the fact that John Best is a s*** stain in the underwear of humanity.
http://autismnaturalvariation.blogspot.com/2006/03/john-bests-greatest-…

It seem from "Rescue Angel" requirement #1:

"1.) You are a family who has benefited from biomedical interventions."

that GR is specifically excluding families who have tried "biomedical interventions" and seen them fail (or, to be more accurate, failed to have a random temporal relationship between the intervention and spontaneous improvement).

This, of course, just feeds the delusion - all the "Rescue Angels" talk among themselves about how this woo or that woo "cured"/"recovered"/helped their child and "never is heard a discouraging word".

Then, all "stoked" from talking to other recipients of random chance, they descend on desperate parents who are grasping for any hope - false or not.

Stir vigorously and serve. Recipe for delusion.

Prometheus

"So what happens if you are already a Rescue Angel ⢠but it turns out that your kid is still very much autistic? Do they have periodic Angel Audits ⢠or do they work on the honor system?"

Very good point.

Mother Warrior's?

Nancy Reagan had her "war on drugs"

I guess this is Jenny McCarthy's battle with reality.

Soon there will be no need for actors and actresses.
They will soon be created by graphics artists
using computer generated images.

Does anyone know if Jenny's book will also have a centerfold?

That would *almost* entice me to look at it in Barnes & Noble.

As a response, let me suggest that anyone visiting B&N or any other book store, take all of her books and turn them around so the back of the jacket shows.

This way, it might not entice some, poor, gullible soul to waste their money.

September is not all bad - Paul Offit's book Autism's False Prophets is out. But keep away from the associated forum comments if you have a tendency towards bruxism.

Hmmmm.....I would certainly call vaccination a biomedical intervention. (What else would you call it? Astrological intervention?)

I had a headache once and took an aspirin. And just this morning I was sleepy and had some tea. Those sound like biomedical interventions to me. Oh. I was feeling tired last night and went to sleep. Is that a biomedical intervention?

I'd certainly be willing to comment on some blog about how biomedical interventions helped me or my family.

I don't know if I'd be willing to spend four hours replying to email about the efficacy of various biomedical interventions I've tried. Maybe for half an hour. That doesn't quite grant me angel status. Can I be a demi-angel? How about one of the half-human/half-angel mixes--nephilim?

oh definitely! Both my children benefitted greatly form bio-medical intervention. As per the recommended/required schedule for vaccinations my children have received them all on schedule and have avoided several potentially deadly diseases as a result.

While some might consider the behavior of a normal healthy 4 year old boy to be pathological, I dont believe that I can use the label autism for him. He just likes pushing his daddy to see how much he can get away with... Though I tried valiantly I was unable to sire enough children to count as a large cohort and we'll just have to live with my limited results. All vaccinations, All normal.

It must be an honor to receive Emails from a bubble headed blond actress who appeared in Playboy (3 times I think). That must pale in comparison to your accomplishments. Bet it hurts. Can you get an autographed nude picture by giving your support?/sarcasm

I'm glad my mother never appeared in public with part of her behind hanging out. Is that how "mother warriors" dress these days? It's better than a Playboy spread, of course, but that reminds me of another word that rhymes with war.
http://www.fadedyouthblog.com/42818/daily-cuteness-62/malibu-jenny-mcca…

PlanetaryGear, funnily enough I also received all of my vaccinations on schedule and have also avoided various deadly diseases. We've got as much evidence as Jenny does! (Plus several orders of magnitude more.)

They haven't figured out to take you off of their mailing list? Maybe they want you there, Orac.

Instead of knocking it, why don't you check it out? Supposedly, it has saved thousands of children - not just a few thousand, but rather 15,000+. Oh, I forgot, there is no "scientific evidence". Well, gee maybe because they don't want a cure/cause??? Common sense people. Let's use it.

Does Formosa's Law apply to Dawn?

Probably not, I wouldn't think it would apply to trolls.

Sorry, I came in late but let me make sure i get this right:
Vaccines are a scam to make money.
"They" don't want autism cured even though a cure for it would be worth quite a bit of money.
The people who do sell "cures" for autism, which have autism-related results no different from doing nothing, they're not in it for money.
It's "big science" who is in it for money by not selling the cure for autism everybody knows about?

Is that about right?

Tincture, you forgot the best part!!

The Evil Pharmas! are the ones *causing* autism in the first place with The Toxic Autism Juices!!

That way they can make even more money from the poor suffering The Children! by selling The Magic Autism Antidote! to their own disease!!

And by hiding The Truth! and not selling The Magic Autism Antidote! they keep The Children! sick, so they can make More Money!$!

Somehow!!

My nose is bleeding now!

Dawn was identified as a Ferrous Cranus http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/ferouscranus.htm in another thread, but I thought Stannous Cranus might fit her little tin foil covered head better.

She is also like other antivaxers. She has issue or rather one issue. http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/issues.htm

I think she may be certifiable, though. Maybe Dawn can go join Dr. Jay's own bulletin board. He has one on his website. DrBozo.com

So they've got Jenny flashing butt in Malibu and Kelli Ann flashing cleavage in DC. It looks like Generation Rescue has both coasts and at least two erogenous zones covered in its sleaze attack on vaccines.

I checked out rescueangel.com.

"Judgment Recovery and Shih Tzus".

Pretty versatile, those rescue angels.

Tincture and DBC:

The people who do sell "cures" for autism, which have autism-related results no different from doing nothing, they're not in it for money. [Tincture]
That way they can make even more money from the poor suffering The Children! by selling The Magic Autism Antidote! to their own disease!! [DBC]

You obviously had selfless multi-millionaires like Dr Kalpana Patel Thars Gold In That Thar Chelation in mind.

So, to all the alt-med mavens out there: If "allopathic" physicians are, as I've been accused of on occasion, of "profiting off of the illness" of their patients, what is Dr. Patel, who's amassed a portfolio far greater than what all but a few "allopathic" physicians can dream of, a portfolio apparently so large that losing $30 million of "cold, hard cash" in a stock investment scam apparently didn't bankrupt her, doing? Let me guess the answer: "Allopathic" doctors are "profiting" off the suffering of their patients and perpetuate that suffering, while "holistic" doctors like Dr. Patel are "treating the whole patient" and "curing" their patient; so it's not troublesome that the latter can apparently amass a fortune worth at least several tens of millions of dollars.

disgusted wrote:

I'm glad my mother never appeared in public with part of her behind hanging out. Is that how "mother warriors" dress these days? It's better than a Playboy spread, of course, but that reminds me of another word that rhymes with war.

You're calling her a whore for wearing a bikini on the beach? I have no love for Jenny McCarthy, but that was just creepy.

"I'm about to go on tour to promote my new book, Mother Warriors, which hits the bookstores everywhere, September 23rd (38 days from now!)."

According to Jenny in a recent interview, "It's really an Indigo book."

Should be interesting to observe....

I think I know how this whole "evidence" thing works for the anti-vaxers:

1) There are no coincidences when it comes to vaccines--if at any time after your child is vaccinated, he/she experiences ANY health problem, it MUST be the vaccines' fault.

2) There are no coincidences when it comes to pro-vaccination scientists receiving grants from pharma companies. It's ALWAYS some evil plot.

3) However, whenever some "pro-informed vaccine consent" person happens to have a financial interest in, say, a "cure" for autism, THAT'S a coincidence--there's NEVER any ill intent there!

4) The fact that no one can PROVE a pharma-CDC-doctor conspiracy means there must be one, well-covered up, of course!

5) Of course, anyone who disagrees with the righteous "pro-informed consent" side, well, he/she is obviously a greedy, child-hating, pharma-loving conspirator or at the very least a pharma stooge.

I think I've covered all the bases, haven't I?

And while we have to joust with the Luddites, the cases of contagious, vaccine-preventable diseases continue to increase...sigh.

Re: the Faded Youth picture, I get the ill-fitting bikini, but the cardinal puppet? Weirds me out.

Ought to be interesting to see whether her groomers let her spout the indigo philosophy on the big talk show circuit, or whether they successfully train her to stick to the talking points.

"Mother Warriors", what a dreadful idea - a confluence of self righteous stupidity and hippy-dippy bulshit crystals and astrology and "I know in my waters what's best for my child! None of that male western phallocentric science jibber-jabber in my house!"

Sigh.

I heard once that the catholics at one point insisted that smallpox innoculations were a protestant plot (or the other way around. Whatever.). They changed their tune only when they noticed that their congregations were all dying of smallpox when the plagues swept though and the other lot were doing fine.

The real danger is that the anti-vaxers will make vaccination illegal on the basis that your vaccinated kids carry viruses that their unvaccinated kids are vulnerable to.

Why is it that every wingnutty idea always has self described "warriors"?

Because when you can't win an argument with reason and logic, you have to resort to force.

Every movement has it's zealots who feverantly believe in the cause without understanding it. If the rational for the cause is convincing it will be often be eventually adopted by the general public, in spite of the efforts of the zealots.

When the cause is insane the rational people may flirt with it for a bit but usually abandon it. At that point the only people left are the warriors (zealots) and those who prey on them (charlatans).

There has always been zealots and charlatans willing to prey on them. I'm optimistic that with the increased access to information the rational portion of the population will spend less time flirting with wingnuttery and woo-woo ideas.

And yes, Rev. BDC, KoT, I know your question was rhetorical. I simply felt like writing something before I went home for the day.

Gee Orac, if what you are saying is correct - that vaccines are purely the greatest gift to mankind - then why can't Congress prove it? As of right now, there is a House Bill sitting...it calls for a study among the vaccinated/unvaccinated populations. Why doesn't anyone want to sponsor this bill?? That raises some serious questions and red flags too. Last time that I checked, there were only 8 Congressmen/Women on board. Why? The public wants answers and this is the fastest way to get them, don't you think?

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h110-2832

Dawn said "that vaccines are purely the greatest gift to mankind - then why can't Congress prove it?"

Do you not know the difference between science and the creation of laws? Did you think that because it is called "polical science" that politician are scientists?

You continued (really, you should not have) with "As of right now, there is a House Bill sitting...it calls for a study among the vaccinated/unvaccinated populations. Why doesn't anyone want to sponsor this bill??"

Because it is not ethical to withhold a safe medical procedure to prevent diseases like pertussis, measles, tetanus and others to children. No politician wants to be held accountable if a child in the placebo groups gets measles or pertussis (which are returning to the USA in bigger numbers). This minor point of medical ethics has been explained, but you seem to have trouble understanding this point.

Tell us, were you born stupid, or did you have to work very hard to go from being a half-wit to become a complete idiot?

Random lurker: the bill doesn't call for "withholding" medical procedures. Did you even read it? There are actually 18 co-sponsors since I've last viewed it. Vaccines are not safe, which is exactly what passage of this bill will show. Unfortunately, many politicans do not want to bite the hand that feeds them though.

Wow, 18 people out of 435... quite the bloc they've got going there.

And Dawn, this may come as news to you, but nothing is 100% safe.

Dawn said " Vaccines are not safe,"

Prove it (with science not legislation). Show us exactly what scientific studies show that the MMR is worse than measles, mumps and rubella. Something that trumps the whole list of studies in this paper:
http://www.immunize.org/catg.d/p4026.pdf

Give us the whole list of problems with MMR, the numbers and the evidence. Not a link to a commercial website with some VAERS numbers.

Do the same to show that the DTaP is worse than diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis. Remember that pertussis still kills over a dozen infants in the USA each year (oh, and to answer you next question, the two kids who are starting a pertussis epidemic in San Diego were not vaccinated).

Show us the science.

It is not just a matter of showing you some links HCN. If you care to learn the truth about the real numbers throughout history, you will purchase the book that I mentioned more than once. There are over 1,000 sources from numerous peer-reviewed medical journals. You will see that over time statistics magically "changed". I'm telling you, you have to see it with your own two eyes to actually believe it.

As far as the pertussis incident in San Diego, it was an unvaccinated nurse who started it. The Associated Press covered the story.

The book you mentioned is in my local library, and there it will stay.

I want you to show me the real science. Get out your silly book, look up the references and then profide the PubMed links for us all to see.

So the nurse was not given the Tdap? Pertussis protection through vaccination does wear off, I am also likely to get pertussis because my last tetanus update was with the DT. The children and their parents have no excuse.

Now put up with real science or shut up.

Science papers like this:
Mercury Levels in Newborns and Infants after Receipt of Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines
Authors: Pichichero ME, Gentile A, Giglio N, et al
Source: Pediatrics, February 2008; 121(2) e208-214

Mercury, Vaccines, And Autism: One Controversy, Three Histories
Author: Baker JP
Source: American Journal of Public Health, February 2008;98(2): 244-253

Continuing Increases in Autism Reported to California's Developmental Services System: Mercury in Retrograde
Authors: Schechter R, Grether JK
Source: Arch Gen Psychiatry, January 2008; 65(1):19-24

Early Thimerosal Exposure and Neuropsychological Outcomes at 7 to 10 Years
Authors: Thompson WW, Price C, Goodson B, et al; Vaccine Safety Datalink Team
Source: N Engl J Med, Sep 27, 2007; 357(13):1281-1292

Lack of Association between Rh Status, Rh Immune Globulin in Pregnancy and Autism
Authors: Miles JH, Takahashi TN
Source: Am J Med Genet, May 16, 2007

Thimerosal in Vaccines: Balancing the Risk of Adverse Effects with the Risk of Vaccine-Preventable Disease
Authors: Bigham M, Copes R
Source: Drug Safety, 2005, Vol. 28(2):89-101

Thimerosal Exposure in Infants and Developmental Disorders: A Prospective Cohort Study in the United Kingdom Does Not Support a Causal Association
Authors: Heron J, Golding J, ALSPAC Study Team
Source: Pediatrics, September 2004, Vol. 114(3):577-583

Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines and Autistic Spectrum Disorder: A Critical Review of Published Original Data
Authors: Parker SK, Schwartz B, Todd J, Pickering LK
Source: Pediatrics, September 2004, Vol. 114(3):793-804

Thimerosal in Vaccines: A Regulatory Prespective WHO Consultation, Geneva, 15-16 April 2002
Authors: Knezevic I, Griffiths E, Reigel F, Dobbelaer R
Source: Vaccine, May 7, 2004, Vol. 22(15-16):1836-41

The Evidence for the Safety of Thimerosal in Newborn and Infant Vaccines
Author: Clements CJ
Source: Vaccine, May 7, 2004, Vol. 22(15-16):1854-1861

Safety of Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines: A Two-Phased Study of Computerized Health Maintenance Organization Databases
Authors: Verstraeten T, Davis RL, DeStefano F, et al
Source: Pediatrics, November 2003, Vol. 112(5):1039-1048

Association Between Thimerosal-Containing Vaccine and Autism
Authors: Hviid A, Stellfeld M, Wohlfahrt J, Melbye M
Source: Journal of the American Medical Association, October 1, 2003, Vol. 290(13):1763-6

Thimerosal and the Occurrence of Autism: Negative Ecological Evidence from Danish Population-Based Data
Authors: Madsen KM, Lauritsen MB, Pedersen CB, et al
Source: Pediatrics, Sept. 2003, Vol. 112(3 Pt 1):604-606

Autism and Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines. Lack of Consistent Evidence for an Association
Authors: Stehr-Green P, Tull P, Stellfeld M, Mortenson PB, Simpson D
Source: American Journal of Preventive Medicine, August 2003, Vol. 25(2):101-6

Vaccine Safety Policy Analysis in Three European Countries: The Case of Thimerosal
Authors: Freed GL, Andreae MC, Cowan AE, et al
Source: Health Policy, December 2002, Vol. 62(3):291-307

Unlike some people, I never believed the mercury was the sole factor in vaccines causing Autism. I think that there are many different situations which may trigger it in individuals. From everything that I am reading - the prime factor is vaccines. Either the parent was vaccinated or the parent & child were vaccinated, etc. I have yet to encounter one case of Autism where vaccines DID NOT play a role.

Dawn said "I have yet to encounter one case of Autism where vaccines DID NOT play a role."

What about Kim Stagliano's youngest autistic daughter? She is not vaccinated, yet she is still autistic.

Also read this story:
http://notmercury.blogspot.com/2006/02/i-was-wrong.html ..."My second child would benefit from all I had learned over the years. I wouldn't take any chances with this one. No vaccines, no antibiotics, no anything else that may contribute to autism. I knew better now and my typical child would be all of the proof I would need....
I WAS WRONG! Refusing vaccines does not guarantee your child will escape being autistic."

Considering your lack of reasoning skills, I could say that just like autism, any learning disabilities your children have may be from a very strong genetic component.

Nat said: "And Dawn, this may come as news to you, but nothing is 100% safe."

TRUE. Even reading Dawn's posts have a negative side effect.I laugh so hard my ribs hurt.

I would like to point out that This Jenny is not the same as the last Jenny. The reply to/from addressee appears to have changed.

What spammer hath gained access to da blond email iduno, but I'll be checking! Meanwhile Be On Your Guard... one of these Must be a fakir. (er Faker?)

HCN: I have quite a few questions about that blog...

Was the mother vaccinated?
How many mercury fillings does she have?
What did she consume while pregnant?
Did she receive any shots while pregnant (to include the flu and Rhogam)?
Was the mother suffering from any type of autoimmune disorder or chronic disease?
What type of environment does she live in?

Like I had stated earlier, I am finding that in every scenario that I encounter either the parent was vaccinated or both the parent and subsequent child were vaccinated. Either way, vaccines were a part of the picture.

Both parents were vaccinated, as children.
Mom did not receive any vaccines or Rhogam while pregnant.
That addresses the questions that actually concern vaccines.

I think what you are finding is that you will always find a way to cling to your beliefs.

What you are doing is moving the goal posts, and definitely showing evidence that any learning disabilities you children have are genetic.

Your questions are about as lame as the who claimed that my son's seizures were because I drank milk.

notmercury: I am so sorry about your situation.

I just wanted to encourage you to research mycoplasma infection. I don't know if I would recommend pubmed for this one. Start with google. This is something new that I just came across...

HCN: The LAST thing I want to do is have another parent go through my ordeal, or notmercury's ordeal or any other vaccine shit for that matter. Vaccines can/do cause Autism - whether it is directly or indirectly related - vaccines are to blame. Period.

Please explain the mycoplasma-autism link. I'm sure your data-free opinion will be truly enlightening. How truly useful Google can be...

I just wanted to make some other relevant points on the subject too. Do you remember the Kirton Family in Utah with the 6 Autistic children? I spoke with the mom, Robin and she is quite certain that vaccines are to blame. In fact, her toddler is the only child of the 6 not vaccinated and has the mildest form. Her second to last born has the most severe (also received the most vaccines). The mom has recently tested positive for Lyme Disease too (again, chronic illness and vaccines being the factors).

It is interesting to find that the majority of children who are Autistic are also testing positive for Lyme. How? Why? In places that Lyme is supposedly not a concern? I also found it very interesting that the Lyme Vaccine was quietly pulled from the market some time ago.

Dawn said "Vaccines can/do cause Autism - whether it is directly or indirectly related - vaccines are to blame. Period."

Prove it, answer our questions.

"Prove it, answer our questions."
She's never answered our questions directly before, what makes you think she'll start now?

I am finding that in every scenario that I encounter either the parent was vaccinated or both the parent and subsequent child were vaccinated. Either way, vaccines were a part of the picture.

I am finding that in every scenario that I encounter either the parent drank water/rode in a car/owned a computer or both the parent and subsequent child drank water/rode in a car/owned a computer. Either way, drinking water/riding in cars/owning computers was part of the picture.

I'm just curious...Dawn, UGG, et al: Do you think that all vaccines should be stopped? Is that why you are "taking Orac on"?

Dawn Said:

notmercury: I am so sorry about your situation.

I just wanted to encourage you to research mycoplasma infection. I don't know if I would recommend pubmed for this one. Start with google. This is something new that I just came across...

Gee, Thanks Dawn, but "my situation" isn't one requiring your sympathy. In fact my situation is a lot happier since I accepted it for what it is and gave up trying to blame it on an external force.

The point of that blog post wasn't to encourage people to offer armchair medical diagnoses, or to play six degrees of vaccination, the point was that I understand how and why parents are likely to blame vaccines because I've been there and I was obviously wrong, unless you want to suggest that my first child was made autistic by vaccines and the second by _(insert cause here)__.

Diane stated: "I'm just curious...Dawn, UGG, et al: Do you think that all vaccines should be stopped? Is that why you are "taking Orac on"?

Yes. I don't see a safe one out there.

They are creating deadly stealth viruses (which led to many types of cancer), autoimmune disorders, diabetes, Autism, Lyme, etc. etc. etc. It is truly sad that we are by far the most vaccinated nation in this world and have the most neurologically deficient/chronically ill children too. Why is that? What on earth are we doing wrong as a society? Is it really normal for an infant to be suffering from cancer? How rare was cancer 50 years ago? How prevalent is it these days? My Dad was suffering from testicular cancer 25 years ago. No drugs for him. How did he get rid of it? Diet. He alkalized his body and starved the cancer cells. Despite the fact that the doctors witnessed this - they refused to believe it (when they in fact diagnosed him at one of the top hospitals in this country). It went against everything that they were taught. Reminds me of this forum. Vaccines just cannot be responsible for this mess that our society is in many say. Do you honestly believe that our government officials will ever admit to harming decades of individuals? What would happen if they did admit it? I think we would have quite a mess on our hands - not to mention how many other countries would want to nuke us.

I saw that just 6 months ago, the CDC stated on their website that the SV40 virus was a contaminate of the polio vaccine decades ago - they stated only other countries received the vaccine- not the U.S. Then a few months later I went back to their website to find that they changed their tune. They stated almost 100 million Americans received the vaccine. They didn't know if it caused cancer yet or not, but were "looking into it". Then a few months later stated that although it caused cancer in lab animals, it does not in humans. Oh please, in just 6 months they figured this out? They are lying. Why are they not telling people about the published studies finding the virus in many malignant tumors? They admitted that a vaccine was contaminated and people are o.k. with this? How disturbing.

How on earth can anyone feel confident reading pubmed or any other garbage for that matter when they are financially tied to the drug companies? My God, look at what these drug companies did to thousands of people with Vioxx, Paxil and Heparin. They make our vaccines and they have already covered up the deaths of tens of thousands of people. Not a big deal I guess. It is amazing how fast our society forgets about the crimes and continues to trust these lunatics with the lives of our people. Look at China for crying out loud. America is o.k. with having the Olympics there? Weren't they responsible for poisioning our food, babies, and pets in 2005? Yes, it is amazing how fast we forget. Insane is more like it. China will soon be manufacturing our vaccines. They are already manufacturing many prescription drugs with less than 2% inspected. Not a big deal I guess. Though, I honestly do not know what the hell the FDA does from 9-5 Mon-Fri. I sure would like to know though.

A mother talks of her infant receiving vaccines and the next day she finds him in his crib covered in fecal matter with blood oozing from his mouth & ears, only to have the doctor rule it as SIDS. Another mother who just gave birth, still in the hospital - her infant just received her Hep B vaccine and died 15 min. later in the mother's arms - another case of SIDS. I could cite countless stories. What the hell is wrong with people? Are doctors really that brainwashed to believe that vaccines only hurt 1 in a million people?

I am 100% positive in my family's situation that vaccines were to blame. If others choose to be in denial, that is their choice. It will be a cold day in hell when I am told that I must sacrifice my family's quality of life (or even life for that matter) for this phony vaccine program that does more harm than good. I don't need to look at these phony studies that you cite. I've done my homework. I didn't just view a few anti-vaccine websites or read a few books to come to that conclusion. I've spoken with countless professionals in all different fields, viewed the vaccine literature, viewed how many children are in Spec Ed., and witnessed how many times our government officials have lied/covered up their previous reported data.

I find it very strange that physicians do not talk to their patients about a healthy lifestyle. If fact, what I do see is these doctors using sale tactics to write as many prescriptions as possible in less than 15 min. I also find it strange that physicians are not knowledgeable about developmental milestones. They have actually "dumbed them down" over the years too. Well, having a learning disabled/ADHD teenager, I do know that any type of delays are usually a good indicator of future problems. Why does Easter Seals have a different milestone chart than pediatricians? Why have schools dumbed down the curriculum over the years? Why is it considered normal for a 14 year old to be on a 2nd grade math level?

A person has to first get off all of their medication in order to think clearly enough to get past this "pubmed" crap to see the truth. The first place to start is simply by looking at the vaccine literature. Take it to an independent chemist for futher information. Don't you find it odd that many of these same ingredients in vaccines are in vials marked with the skull and crossbones? Well, pubmed says the vaccines are safe so they must be.

Dawn asks: "Why have schools dumbed down the curriculum over the years?"

To allow people like you to think that they are being educated.

Dawn whined "A person has to first get off all of their medication in order to think clearly enough to get past this "pubmed" crap to see the truth. The first place to start is simply by looking at the vaccine literature."

Where do you think the vaccine literature originates. The ORIGINAL research, studies and discussion are indexed on PubMed. If you look at the vaccine literature you will see a list of papers, which are all indexed on PubMed. That actual REAL evaluated vaccine literature is indexed on PubMed (do you know what an "index" is?).

You obviously have a very limited education, and limited skill in reading comprehension. When you tell us to go buy a book, your suggestion is ludicrous on the mere fact that you most likely did not understand a good portion. In fact, most of the stuff you point out has been misinterpreted by you. You clearly have no understanding of the basics of health, medicine or even how to interpret simple statistics (perhaps even basic math).

Right now is towards the end of summer. It is time for you to get off your angry undereducated crusade and figure out how to live happily with your children, and how to increase your literacy. The community colleges in our area have wonderful programs just for people like you. They include tutoring centers to help you with things you find difficult (like reading and math). Please, get off the computer and go visit you local community college, take a placement exam (with luck you should place in mid-highschool level reading) and work to fix your intellectual deficits.

It might lead you to vocational training that would help you later as your children grow and need more expensive therapies (I remember having to pay for private therapy when insurance ran out, we finally were able to buy a new care when he grew out of that).

Laser Potato said "She's never answered our questions directly before, what makes you think she'll start now?"

Oh, just to see how hopeless it was. Since she has just repeated all the fallacies that have been refuted here over the past few weeks, I see that she is either extremely close minded, or really has a severe problem with reading comprehension (highlighted by her idiocy directed towards PubMed, she really refuses to understand even the basics). She definitely needs some counseling to deal with her anger and wanting to blame everything she does not understand, instead of accepting and getting services.

"You're calling her a whore for wearing a bikini on the beach? I have no love for Jenny McCarthy, but that was just creepy."

Agreed. Though I totally oppose J-M's position on vaccines, I am a bothered by the puritanical attitude toward sexuality displayed in those comments. Her modelling was no less a legitimate job than any others.

You are too funny HCN...calling me the idiot? Vaccinate away...Do you have any idea how vaccines are approved? The FDA simply views the drug manufacturers' short-term studies (usually 5-10 days) before stamping the O.k. If there are any questionable reactions or safety concerns, the FDA will leave it up to the public to report to VAERS. Are you REALLY that stupid?

Dawn,

The idiocy that HCN cited is your advising people to "get past this 'pubmed' crap" so that they can start "by looking at the vaccine literature."

I find it hard to think of a more idiotic statement.

Really, Dawn, you need to really work on your reading comprehension skills. It is clear you have no idea what www.pubmed.gov actually is. It is an index of medical literature, and absolutely all of the vaccine literature originates there. All of the documentation the FDA uses is indexed there, along with many of the CDC documents, along with the documentation from other countries.

Please, sign up for a basic English reading class at your local community college now!

Well I know what PubMed is, and will offer some assistance to Dawn in the Mycoplasma area and hopefully provide some fodder for those attacking her.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11425741

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11774744

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8206173

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9126441

There is indication for the same contamination in veterinary vaccines.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3799018

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8916012

As an observation, Dawn might be directing someone to a layman's version of mycoplasma contamination. Testing for mycoplasma infection and/or contamination is lax, and this organism is resistant to certain abx. They are also physiologically capable of changing form under certain circumstances. Suggested reading:

http://www.crcpress.com/shopping_cart/products/product_detail.asp?sku=8…

Probably about $20 cheaper on Amazon.

Carry on.

I tried posting a moment ago, but my comment seems to be held in moderation. Presumably due to the amount of links that were in the post. I apologize if this post appears twice, but I'll not be able to repost it or check back due to a leave of absence.

I said:

I know what PubMed is, and I am going to assist Dawn in the mycoplasma area that she mentioned above.

Uphoff CC, Drexler HG. Prevention of mycoplasma contamination in leukemia-lymphoma cell lines. Hum Cell 2001 Sep;14(3):244-7. PMID 11774744

Benisheva T, Sovova V, Ivanov I, Opalchenova G. Comparison of methods used for detection of mycoplasma contamination in cell cultures, sera, and live-virus vaccines. Folia Biol (Praha) 1993;39(5):270-6. PMID 8206173

Kojima A, Takahashi T, Kijima M, Ogikubo Y, Nishimura M, Nishimura S, Harasawa R, Tamura Y. Detection of Mycoplasma in avian live virus vaccines by polymerase chain reaction. Biologicals 1997 Dec;25(4):365-71. PMID 9467032.

Benisheva T, Sovova V, Ivanov I, Opalchenova G. Comparison of methods used for detection of mycoplasma contamination in cell cultures, sera, and live-virus vaccines. Folia Biol (Praha) 1993;39(5):270-6. PMID 8206173

Kong F, James G, Gordon S, Zelynski A, Gilbert GL. Species-specific PCR for identification of common contaminant mollicutes in cell culture. Appl Environ Microbiol 2001 Jul;67(7):3195-200. PMID 11425741

Baseman JB, Tully JG. Mycoplasmas: sophisticated, reemerging, and burdened by their notoriety. Emerg Infect Dis 1997 Jan-Mar;3(1):21-32. PMID 9126441

And in veterinary vaccines:

Kojima A, Takahashi T, Kijima M, Ogikubo Y, Tamura Y, Harasawa R. Detection of mycoplasma DNA in veterinary live virus vaccines by the polymerase chain reaction. J Vet Med Sci 1996 Oct;58(10):1045-8. PMID 8916012

Thornton DH. A survey of mycoplasma detection in veterinary vaccines. Vaccine 1986 Dec;4(4):237-40. PMID 3799018

Detection and screening for mycoplasma infection/contamination is lax. This organism is resistant to certain abx, and has the physiological capablity to change form under certain circumstances. Further information can be found in "Cell Wall Deficient Forms: Stealth Pathogens" by Lida H. Mattman.

AA

aa, there is a spam limit of two URLs, which is why I will occasionally mung the URL (and note why I am doing so). Also, when you think there is an error in posting it is just a problem with the blog software, the post has gone through but there is a problem displaying it (which is kind of explained in the error message most of the time). So open up a new window or tab and double check if your post has gone through.

Thank you AA for that information. I was hoping that they would do the work, but they obviously do not care about the message I am giving.

Now, as far as HCN, Franklin, and TheProbe, let me simplify my previous posts even further - if that is at all possible because you are not comprehending my already simplified information.

Merck has come under fire in recent months for reportedly killing an estimated 60,000 people with Vioxx. GlaxoSmith Kline has also come under fire for the deaths of an undetermined amount of people with Paxil. Despite the fact that both companies knew that there was a problem with their product, they altered the reported findings in their published studies. Now, Baxter is responsible for killing many people with their product, Heparin (with ingredients derived from trustworthy China) - the same country that was responsible for killing thousands of our pets, and harming many adults & children in 2005.

Now, if Glaxo and Merck manufacture many of our vaccines and their published studies are found in Pubmed, common sense tells me to question those studies also. After all, when it comes to vaccines AND prescription drugs, there is no valid current system of checks and balances that I am aware of. Again, the FDA does not test any vaccine (and only less than 2% of imported prescription drugs from China are inspected)because they simply rely on VAERS for vaccines and the studies conducted by the vaccine manufacturers. If informed consent is not practiced with vaccines and doctors do not read the package inserts for possible adverse reactions and relay them to the patient, what good is VAERS?

What I was telling the reader is to examine the list of ingredients found in the vaccine literature (which HCN, Franklin, and TheProbe) all took out of context. Take that list of ingredients to an independent chemist for a further analysis. Common sense tells me to forget about the published studies found in Pubmed!

After AA's post, it is very clear to the reader that mycoplasma contamination detection is currently very lax. In fact, so lax that the FDA is holding a meeting this week to supposedly "speed up" this detection process for pandemic situations. So, what are they going to do with the millions/billions are bird brain flu vials that were already produced? They sure as heck are not going to destroy them. Mycoplasma contamination is currently under scruntiny as another possible factor is Autism. This suggestion is alarming. I am sure that our government agencies will find another way though to skirt the issue in the process.

So, taking all of that information into account, can one honestly believe that vaccines are safe?

Correction to my previous post. The FDA is holding a workshop in Sept regarding mycoplasma detection in a pandemic situation. I incorrectly stated it was this week.

http://www.fda.gov/cber/meetings/myco092208.htm

Do you have any idea how vaccines are approved? The FDA simply views the drug manufacturers' short-term studies (usually 5-10 days) before stamping the O.k.

Bzzt, wrong. According to the FDA itself:

Pre-marketing (pre-licensure) vaccine clinical trials are typically done in three phases, as is the case for any drug or biologic. Initial human studies, referred to as Phase 1, are safety and immunogenicity studies performed in a small number of closely monitored subjects. Phase 2 studies are dose-ranging studies and may enroll hundreds of subjects. Finally, Phase 3 trials typically enroll thousands of individuals and provide the critical documentation of effectiveness and important additional safety data required for licensing. At any stage of the clinical or animal studies, if data raise significant concerns about either safety or effectiveness, FDA may request additional information or studies, or may halt ongoing clinical studies.

Source:http://www.fda.gov/Cber/vaccine/vacappr.htm

Dawn said " Common sense tells me to forget about the published studies found in Pubmed!"

PubMed is an index. Do you know what an index is?

Thanks HCN, my laptop has a rather sensitive touch pad - so the submission issues I had were both my and my machine's fault.

Natalie: you have omitted a rather important piece.

Quote: Manufacturers are required to submit the results of their OWN tests for potency, safety, and purity for each vaccine lot to the FDA. They are also required to submit samples of each vaccine lot to FDA for testing. However, if the sponsor describes an alternative procedure which provides continued assurance of safety, purity and potency, CBER may determine that routine submission of lot release protocols (showing results of applicable tests) and samples is not necessary. - end quote

http://www.hhs.gov/nvpo/factsheets/fs_tableII_doc2.htm

AA

Dawn: PubMed is your friend. While there is nothing wrong with viewing the studies indexed in this very resourceful site with a hefty dose of skepticism - it will be impossible to articulate your point in this forum by turning your back on it, whether you trust it or not. There are biases on both sides of this debate, and we will all be better served if we make a genuine attempt to get past them

That said, they is nothing wrong with being skeptical of what is furnished to the FDA for approval/licensure. This article is a fine demonstration:

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/358/3/252

AA

AA:

But it is not true that "The FDA simply views the drug manufacturers' short-term studies" and rubber stamps them. There is a procedure for dealing with studies that show excessively high complications or what have you. And Dawn provided no evidence that these three phase studies are only 5-10 days long.

AA, I just looked at the FAQ we are discussing, and you appear to be misunderstanding the document. That paragraph you've quoted is describing the safety testing that happens after a vaccine has already been approved. That is, the safety testing conducted on individual lots of the vaccine to look for contamination. They are not discussing the pre-approval safety testing. Since Dawn appears to be talking about pre-approval safety testing, your point is irrelevant.

Natalie,

My purpose was to illustrate the lack of quality control regarding the biological. I wasn't trying to clarify Dawn's position, only to point out that regardless of the pre-licensure procedures in place - if this is the scope of quality control, it doesn't really matter.

I did not mean to infer that you were incorrect in your assessment of the approval process, apologies.

AA

I'd just like to take this opportunity to thank Jenny McCarthy.

Yeah, I'm being sarcastic.

I wasn't trying to clarify Dawn's position, only to point out that regardless of the pre-licensure procedures in place - if this is the scope of quality control, it doesn't really matter.

I understand, although I still disagree. Just because one part of quality control is flawed does not mean that the rest of the quality control process is unimportant.

Dawn says, "mycoplasma contamination detection is currently very lax. In fact, so lax that the FDA is holding a meeting this week to supposedly "speed up" this detection process for pandemic situations"

Detection is not lax ... detection and surveillance is routinely done, as a check of the literature will show you. The FDA workshop is, as their site clearly states: "to provide a forum on recent scientific and technical achievements in the development of rapid methods for mycoplasma testing during the manufacture of vaccines and other biological products. Such discussion may help to assess how these methods compare with currently used methods." ... In other words, they want to discuss how to do it faster while maintaining or improving the quality of the results. That's the "demonstrate equivalency or superiority" part.

Right now, the testing is fast enough to keep up with the vaccine production. In a pandemic, production of a vaccine can be increased way above what the QC testing can handle. So they are going to discuss potential faster methods, and discuss them NOW, before a screaming emergency happens.

This is what grownups do: they plan ahead, they look for ways to improve.