I'm getting a flood of email from Israel. As one correspondent explains, Israel maintains three kinds of state-supported schools: one kind for the ultra-orthodox, because the state has always fostered freakishly fanatical ignorance among the lunatic subset, and these schools teach no science at all; a fully secular system, particularly in higher education, because Jews have also had a strong scholarly tradition, and Israel depends on material strategies for its survival, and these schools teach science very well; and a general intermediate kind of school where religion may be taught but science is also taught. That situation may be in peril now. Gavriel Avital, the chief scientist in the education ministry, has made a few statements that show he is a lunatic.
"If textbooks state explicitly that human beings' origins are to be found with monkeys, I would want students to pursue and grapple with other opinions. There are many people who don't believe the evolutionary account is correct," Avital said yesterday.
"There are those for whom evolution is a religion and are unwilling to hear about anything else. Part of my responsibility, in light of my position with the Education Ministry, is to examine textbooks and curricula," he said. "If they keep writing in textbooks that the Earth is growing warmer because of carbon dioxide emissions, I'll insist that isn't the case."
Nobody has explained to me yet how such a putz got appointed in the first place, but this isn't a good sign. The man is a freakin' incompetent.
Prior to his appointment, Avital said in a video interview with Machon Meir, a religious-Zionist Jewish studies institute, "Another scientific field that is problematic is biology, or life and environmental sciences. When your doctrine is based on Darwin's theory of evolution and its implications, you are standing on unreliable foundations - that is, there is no God, there was only something primeval, and then there are certain random developments which led to the apex of all creation, the human being.
"Today I am pleased that more and more scientists engaged in pure science, rather than being employed in the name of an ideology, are reaching the conclusion that the world must have a master. Nothing is given to chance," he said. "These are my opinions and I won't deny them just because I was appointed to an Education Ministry position."
The chorus of outrage is already building among sensible scientists in Israel.
Yehoshua Kolodny, a professor emeritus at Hebrew University who won the Israel Prize for his contributions to the study of earth science, responded furiously to these statements yesterday.
"Denying evolution is like denying science itself," Kolodny said.
"Evolution is not a theory, but an observation point that anyone can see. Perhaps Dr. Avital did not notice that throughout history, various species existed and then became extinct. In 2009, the entire world celebrated 200 years since the birth of Darwin and 150 years since the publication of his book 'The Origin of the Species,'" he added.
"When a top scientist ignores these things, it's a cultural calamity," Kolodny said. "There are no disagreements among scientists regarding evolution. Catholics and Protestants long ago ended their war against evolution, and Avital is for all intents and purposes joining the radical fringe of evangelicals in the United States."
I have to disagree with Dr Kolodny on one thing: Catholics and Protestants are still fighting over evolution in the US. Apparently some Jews are simply joining them now, parroting the same drivel that had its origins in fundamentalist/evangelical Protestantism.
Still, let's add a few international voices to that chorus. Write to tluna@education.gov.il and politely suggest that Gavriel Avital is clearly not the right man for the job.
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And don't forget that back here in the States, the actual Don McLeroy's political fate will be decided in the GOP primaries on March 2. His sole opponent (there is no Democrat running) is Thomas Ratliff, who, unlike McLeroy, does not watch The Flintstones as if it were a documentary.
It looks like the only reason he got the position was for his work for the Likud party in their failed attempt to garner power a couple years back.
sad.
"If textbooks state explicitly that human beings' origins are to be found with monkeys. . ."
Oy Vey!
What is Avital's background. The reports refer to him as "Dr. Avital" but don't identify his field. Is it engineering?
Is it engineering?
it sure sounds like it:
...another engineer who thinks they are a biologist.
I know that not all engineers become creationists, but damn if it doesn't seem like there are a preponderance of creationists that ARE.
I'm a comp.sci. student at HUJI (Hebrew University of Jerusalem) and I first heard about this here.
Only people who look for this kind of news find it. It's very far down on the online front page of Haaretz.
Very few people know because very few people care. That's how you get into a world where parents have to hear from their children that the teachers at school deny evolution. All the issues with people supporting or opposing this publicly are secondary; everyone who even knows about these issues are a few percent of the population.
I wish it were a comfort to know that ignorant, antiscience politicians aren't limited to the USA.
But it isn't.
You don't get science through consensus, dumbass.
What was really funny (or could have been, if it wasn't so sad), is that in one of the interviews Avital called the GW advocators "a fanatic religious cult", only to conclude, in the next sentence, "The world will not be destroyed - the Lord promised that". Aha.
The higher education system in Israel is strong - I do not believe that this will have any effect on undergraduate teaching, and defenitely not on research. As to the high-schools, especially the the religious ones... That is what I'm worried about.
alyson miers says, "You don't get science through consensus, dumbass."
Very true. In science, the evidence defines consensus. The whole issue of scientific consensus seems to be a rather slippery one for laymen to understand. The way I put it is that scientists "vote" with their research. When a theory, technique or method becomes so indispensible to understanding a field that scientists who reject it simply have nothing useful to contribute to the field (e.g. they all but stop publishing and are not cited when they do), then you have consensus.
This idea of evidence shaping opinion rather than people voting on the meaning of evidence runs exactly the opposite way that most people view political consensus.
Mailed them. Of course, the cynic in me says that my mail wouldn't change anything; but hey, I tried!!!
As a Computer Professional who has a degree in Physics and a Masters in Computers and a thorough grounding in all the sciences, I must say that Gavriel Avital sounds like a religious fanatic and certainly not someone to be in charge of educating the impressionable Jewish children. His position on the theory of evolution by natural selection in particular appears completely absurd for anyone who has taken the pains to understand the theory, the various improvements done to the theory (lateral gene transfer, etc.) and the gene theory which forms the basis of evolution by natural selection.
If this person is allowed to be in the helm of education for a while, I’m afraid that Israel and the Jews (a country and a people I love for the great minds it has produced – from the great physicists Albert Einstein and Richard Feynman to Sergei Brin) would go much behind in development and start to resemble the dark ages (something that I see happening in the United States of America already).
I am an Indian by birth and race and the only reason why I’m sending this mail is due to my concern for the people of Israel. The holocaust occurred because the Germans had access to better science and technology than the Jews. I pray and hope such a thing isn’t allowed to happen again.
I'd like to nominate Bruce Salem as the replacement for Avital.
As for Avital's decision to sound like a Republican trying to get votes from evangelicals, maybe he would like to be reminded that evangelicals want Israel to fight a war at Armageddon. They expect massive casualties on all sides and don't care at all what happens to Israel.
To Jayaram @ 11 -
As an Israeli, I truely appreciate your sentiment - but I have to say, of all the "reasons" I have ever heard for the holocaust, this one is up there among the most bizarre.
By the way, I was one of the (apperantly many) people who sent this link to PZ. When doing so, I didn't realize this might get our education ministry pharyngulated...
I love it!
Let them have it, guys!
(On a more serious note, beside being hilarious, I believe it could actually have an effect)
This Jew (Moi) was something less than polite in his letter.
I hope my Yiddish wasn't too rusty either.
The man is a meshuganeh and a putz to boot, and he should gay kocken offen yam.
I also suggested that he is oiver bottl.
I really, really wish Dr. Avital would have an opinion on quantum mechanics. It would be so simple to end 100 years of mystery. All that is necessary is for him to say something along the lines of, "It is my express opinion that matter is formed by a chorus of tremendously tiny angels. You can pinpoint either their position or their velocity, but not both simultaneously, because they are busy flapping their wings, which changes both their apparent size, and their velocity. This causes them to oscillate in a way that appears to be both wave-like and particle-like."
I believe it infinitely selfish of him to keep his opinion to himself on this most profound mystery.
To tamar@13,
Well, the "cause" maybe a lot of things. But what made it possible was the the power given by science and technology that the Israelis lacked and which the Germans had access to.
We Indians vividly remember the years that the Islamic Mughals and Mongols and later, the British ruled over us - all because we were still fixated on horse chariots and elephant cavalry while the Mughals and British had access to much better technology.
More recently, the US decimated Afghanistan and Iraq while is merely sounding the war-horn (without any follow-through) against Iran. Why on earth would they be doing such a thing?
shmendrick peddling shmegegge to pander to shtunks... couldn't resist.
Many of the powers that be in Israel know that much of the support they get from the U.S. is pushed through our political system by the evangelical community here so it's no suprise that many in leadership positions are now adopting their ideolological stances.
Again, not supriseing but definatly disapointing. Thanks for the contact info...TPO
Israel was founded by secular nationalists, but a hyper-religious (very small) minority often has the deciding vote in a close race between the major parties. And so gets hold of important mnisterial appontments as part of a coalition.
In some ways Israel is much more socially liberal than the United States, but the lack of "separation" causes a lot of problems.
It amazes me that people of faith look at the world in such a backwards fashion. To them when the science community reaches a consensus based upon the preponderance of the evidence it is called a religion. Then they propose a hypotheses based on mythical literature (the Bible) and poor evidence they call it science.
Jayaram | February 22, 2010 9:06 AM:
There have been examples of ethnic conflict in which one side had much better access to science and technology, and yet did not commit widespread ethnic cleansing. There have also been examples (Rwanda) where both sides had roughly equal access to science and technology, and yet ethnic cleansing occurred anyway. I doubt access to science and technology played a dominant role.(It is ironic that you mention Einstein, a Jew educated in German universities, in the same comment.)
Not to mention many (most?) of the Muslims in their own backyard.
I already have one interesting conclusion from this discussion - American Jews know way more Yiddish the I (an Israeli Jew) do... ("shtunks"? srsly?)
And to #18 and others - I do think that (this time) it's not about flattering to evangelicals or others. The groups that advocate this kind of anti-science beliefs in Israel might (and probably have) been inspired by American groups, but I think this is were the connection ends. We have our own riligious stupidity, you know...
tamar #23
I would be really interested in your perspective on why the small minority ultra-orthodox appear to have so much influence in Israeli society and politics.
Q.E.D
@Q.E.D.:
It's an unfortunate result of their electoral system, which is based on complete proportional representation. With the country roughly divided on left/right lines, the fringe parties - with just a few Knesset members each - often get the deciding roles in any coalitions.
something to do with being Yahweh's chosen people?
To QED @ 24 -
Well, it really is a complicated issue...
Abdul @19 summed it up quite good. To add to that, the political system here in very different than in the US. There are many political parties, and the prime-minister is the guy that can get the most votes in the parlament - he (or she) is not chosen directly by the people.
This system is amazingly open to exploytation from a small, dedicated and opportunistic group - a small party that can break the tie btween the "left-wing parties" and the "right-wing parties", since it can join any coalition as long as it gets what it wants for its own people.
This is exactly were the ultra-orthodox have positioned themselves, and it works just great for them (less great for the rest of us...)
By the way, Avital himself is not an ultra-orthodox, and is from the Likud party, a right-wing mildly-religious party.
In general, at least untill lately, the ultra-orthodox parties were concerened mainly in the education of their own kids, and in things that affect their own society. This is part of the reason why the secular majority have put up with their un-proportional influence for so long. However, like any fanatic group, they do aspire to change the nature of the country and make it more religious, with all that comes with it. They see their way of life as superiour to ours, and are not ashamed to say that.
tamar -
Yiddish was the language of the immigrants from the shtetls. New York almost certainly had the largest concentration of Yiddish-speaking residents in the world at the beginning of WWI. New Yorkers of all heritages found that the expressions, interjections and insults found in Yiddish were perfect for themselves, so they adopted huge swaths of it.
As a language, Yiddish is dying, partly because of Modern Hebrew in Israel, partly because of the Holocaust and the strong Germanic heritage of Yiddish, partly because Jews have been so strongly assimilated in so many places. As spice for American English, particularly in New York, it is still going strong. Leo Rosten's bestseller The Joys of Yiddish did a lot to expand understanding of Yiddish words and phrases to those who had almost no familiarity with it, though Al D'Amato should have checked it before he called Chuck Schumer a "putzhead".
I always find interesting this idea that if we don't worship some deity then we worship nature or ourselves. Is it so unfathomable that I may not worship anything at all?
I will write when I get home; I'm set up to type in Hebrew there. I figure if nothing else, the recipient of the e-mail will get a couple chuckles out of that -- someone with my name (which is so WASPy it sounds like it summers at Martha's Vineyard) writing in Hebrew, and my atrocious grammar. :)
There's also another factor in the non-use of Yiddish in Israel -- at least according to a friend of mine, Yiddish is the language of the Haredi who refuse to assimilate (very much effort was expended in the mass immigration period in the 1940s to convince new immigrants to speak Hebrew, so the language of the Sabra is Hebrew). Which is why my friend, who's about as secular as an Israeli gets, will admonish a user of Yiddish words with "Don't say that! It sounds religious!" (Yes, he really does use "religious" as a pejorative.)
Yes.
At least it is for them.
Unfortunately most Texan voters agree with McLeroy about the Flintstones. http://tinyurl.com/ygvzs6h
... let's add a few international voices to that chorus.
It should only take one.
Could someone more fluent in Turkish than I please contact Harun Yahya and ask him to publicly endorse Dr. Avital and his statements?
Uh...Israel didn't exist till after the Holocaust.
Of course evolution is a theory, and not a mere "observation point." Observable it is, but the theory has made it far more visible and thinkable.
Other than that, it sounds like there's the appropriate outrage at Avital's atavistic bullshit. He's got the usual stupid claptrap going, that "There are many people who don't believe the evolutionary account is correct," as if those denialist morons lend any kind of credit to anti-evolutionist lies.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p
But his opinion defines reality! Didn't you ready the article? He's not going to change his opinion just because he's in an Education Minister position.
Don't confront him with things like "facts" and "evidence" and "ontologic standing." His opinion is the only thing that's holding the universe together right now. If you cause him to think critically about his opinion, he might actually enter a state in which he is confused and undecided, and then the very fabric of reality will unravel!
That's why he's holding so closely to his poorly-supported opinion. He's just thinking about the integrity of the universe, is all. You're not helping by putting us all in danger.
NOW don't you feel like a jerk?
That may be true but it shouldn't be. Cockroaches, termites, snakes, and spiders all hide in the shadows and darkness for their own good reasons. Every society has lunatic fringes that would destroy them if people just sit back and don't pay attention.
A bit of irony here. Some Orthodox Jews seem to find it necessary to imitate US fundie cultist Christians. If they really feel the need to Make Something Up, they should be able to Make Up their own nonsense. About time for a new prophet or messiah isn't it? Those are always good for a few decades or centuries.
PZ, thanks for continuing to highlight this kind of craziness, and for showing that it comes from all varieties of religion. I am sick of people who never met a woo they didn't like being given respect.
And calling their behavior "lunacy" and "craziness" is RIGHT, despite the fact that it offends people. As a wise commenter noted above, evidence doesn't brook consensus, and people who ignore the evidence in front of their noses need to be rather abruptly reminded of it....because, left unchecked, such thinking leads to elaborate rationalizations that give justification to child abuse, unjustifiable persecution, and worse.
"... There are many people who don't believe the evolutionary account is correct," Avital said yesterday.
Thus the need for education.
I don't think Ultra-Orthodox Jews are imitating Christian fundies. Rather they are being true to type, and some of the results are the same.
"There are those for whom evolution is a religion and are unwilling to hear about anything else."
I am always quite surprised when I read comments from theists accusing atheists and secularists of being religious. Evolution, Darwinism, secularism, they claim, are all just religions. This seems to be one of the most damning comments they can make about us, that is, we are just like them.
Isn't it strange that people for whom god is the center of their lives, the term dogmatic, fundamentalist religion is a pejorative?
Krystalline@34,
Yeah, Realized it after I had typed it. Really must think before, during and after I type - shoes taste awful. I'll find the neurons responsible for this and ground them thoroughly (pardon the pun).
I'm just spitballing here, but I think they are trying to remove the bite from that particular accusation. At some level, they realize that they are dogmatic, and in some ways fundamentalist. By casting naturalism (or whatever you want to call it) in religious words, they think they can blunt that particular accusation against them.
It's the quasi-adult way of saying, "I know you are, but what am I?"
It probably wasn't hard to push them in that direction.
But they are using fundie Christian language, arguments, and sound bites word for word.
Avital, "There are those for whom evolution is a religion and are unwilling to hear about anything else."
Avital, "If textbooks state explicitly that human beings' origins are to be found with monkeys, I would want students to pursue and grapple with other opinions. There are many people who don't believe the evolutionary account is correct,"
Guy sounds like a Texan on the State Board of Education. I suppose next he will come up with, "If humans came from monkeys, why are there still monkeys."
Part of it is that they simply cannot understand how someone can not be religious. The idea a person can have no need of religion in their lives is something that these people just cannot, or will not, grasp. So they assume atheists are in fact religious, and then look to see what that religion might be. In their minds atheists are extremely vocal about evolution, so they make the connection. Atheists have a religion, and that religion is evolution.
"I am always quite surprised when I read comments from theists accusing atheists and secularists of being religious. Evolution, Darwinism, secularism, they claim, are all just religions. This seems to be one of the most damning comments they can make about us, that is, we are just like them."
It is part of a two prong strategy of leveling. Promote their bronze aged fables and dogmas as science and demote the science to a dogma.
#41
I think they simply cannot conceive of someone not worshipping something, and are calling us out on what "must be" a lie.
Think Cesar Milstein is rolling over in his grave?
It is mostly because they are stupid and liars.
1. Calling science a religion drags science down to their level. Religion. So they can then say that science is a matter of faith or opinion, rather than that their religion believes mythology is real.
2. So they can play the persecution card. If science is a religion, then they can claim they are being persecuted because the science worldview is preventing their worldview from being taught in science classes.
It is a cheap trick and it is dead wrong. 60% of all US scientists are....religious as well. You can both accept science and be religious. Because they are two different things.
Don't forget the majority of xians and probably Jews as well worldwide don't have a problem with science in general and evolution in particular. Creationism is the belief of cults within those two religions.
This right here is testimony that Avital doesn't understand science. What is anathema to science (but perfectly acceptable in realm of theology) is to toss out a whole theory and the reams and reams of supporting evidence if the conclusion makes you uneasy.
It's akin to saying that because you like doughnuts, fried chicken with the skin on, and greasy, double-pattied burgers,* that all the evidence that a diet high in such foods can have serious detrimental effects on should be ignored in favour of "pursuing and grappling with other opinions."
Being open-minded doesn't mean considering every cockamamie idea as being equally likely to be true, but being willing to consider that the evidence points pretty strongly to a conclusion, especially if that conclusion is personally upsetting.
* I must rethink my position on offering such analogies an hour or more before lunch. I'm just glad there isn't a Burger Baron anywhere near where I work.
Brownian,
Thanks for that. I looked at the Burger Baron link, found out that Canadians call doner kebabs "donairs" (oh you foreigners and your whacky ways ;-) ) and now I am hankering for a kebab. You have not helped my BMI decrease. Curse you and your tempting meaty treat based asides {shakes fist}.
Louis
#41
I repeat myself, but this is part of an insidious strategy to sidestep the principle that schools teach science, not religion. If religious beliefs can be declared "scientific", they can worm their way into schools. If scientific beliefs can be labeled "religious", then they either don't belong in schools; or some/all other religious beliefs have a right to be taught along with them.
Well, and also 'cause these dumbasses cannot grasp that you don't put God into scientific theories and research methodologies because you can't do science by inserting "Goddidit" whenever you don't have an answer. Aren't any unanswered questions in a scientific theory proof that the theory is wrong??!!?? They cannot grasp that scientific research is focused on where we don't have answers. That is not it's failure, but its success. They seem to think scientists go into labs each day and repeat Galileo's experiment of dropping balls off the Tower of Pisa (I know, it didn't really happen...) 'cause, you know, we KNOW the answer to that experiment already.
This has been touched upon indirectly, but, more directly, they have most of all the need to claim that we "believe in evolution" because we're somehow prejudiced--apparently because we "don't want to believe in god" (theistic evolutionists, whatever you think of them, belie this simplistic fabrication).
If we happened to accept (or indeed, believe in, as we do relativity theory) evolution just because that's where the evidence points, they'd at once be admitting that they simply believe a lie. OK, there are a few who can agree that the evidence is for evolution, yet take "revelation" over that evidence, but they truly are few and far between.
This is why they're generally a very nasty and defamatory lot. They have to begin with two lies at once, that evolution is untrue, and that we can only believe it because we're prejudiced. The lack of evidence for either lie does not trouble them, mainly because they do cling to those two lies.
In one sense, though, it's not really problematic for them to call us "religious" at all, because they have no problem thinking that religious people are stupid prejudiced gits--all except for their own religion, that is. So it's true that we look at their accusation of evolution being a religion as self-condemnation, while they do not, because theirs is the One True ReligionTM.
They're just calling us adherents of another prejudicial and false religion like they (most, not all of them) do every other religion in the world, which explains everything they need to know about us. Learning the truth about science and about us is thereby unnecessary.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p
Not all of us, Louis. In eastern Canada (which, to us prairie folk at least, includes Ontario), I believe they're more likely to refer to them as gyros or shawarma than donairs. I try to limit myself, but there's something satisfyingly atheist about having a meal that weighs the same as a newborn and comes wrapped in a swaddling pita. I'd be more into having kids if they came home from the hospital topped with a dollop of tzatziki. I wonder if one can specify a Greek or Lebanese midwife or doula when planning a home birth.
#51 Holy war time, buddy.
gyros :)
Dawkins compared Holocaust deniers to creationist.
I wonder how much this asshole would have held his job if he was actually a holocaust denier...
This is fractally wrong.
~:-| Please explain. GPS works, and I've seen photos of Einstein crosses, Einstein arcs, and Einstein rings…
Döner macht schöner.
Dawkins compared Holocaust deniers to creationist.
I wonder how much this asshole would have held his job if he was actually a holocaust denier...
Might not have made much difference. Some of the religious Jews are also Holocaust deniers. The same ones that are creationists and climate change deniers. Polykookery is quite common.
Brownian & Louis: And yet the donair (in it's Canadian incarnation) apparently originated in Halifax. And it is the one form of "foreign" food that my Newfie-born grandfather and Albertan grandmother were both familiar with before relocating to Toronto, which I think is hilarious.
(I see gyros, shawarma, and donair all advertised pretty regularly in Toronto. But I stick with felafel, myself.)
I guess Avital didn't read the Leonard Pitts Jr. column I mentioned yesterday in the endless thread, "Sorry, but you are not entitled to your own facts" which ends with:
Raven said in #49
There are plenty of people who accept both, but it's NOT because of the idea of Non-overlapping Magisteria. It's because humans are good at compartmentalizing their minds and by doing so they become hypocritical. For any claim "X" you care to talk about, the existence of people who say X is true and act as if X is true does not constitute evidence that X actually IS true. The existence of religious scientists does not imply that it really is true that science and religion are compatible.
I don't know if it's true, but I've been emphatically told, mostly by Orthodox Jews themselves, that they are, beyond question, God's chosen people. If so, they must have had to make certain concessions to gain their Big Kahuna's favor for such a great honor. I wonder if intelligence and reason were among the many "fringe" benefits they had to sacrifice?
"A couple thumbs and they think they are the Lords of Creation"
--Gaspode (Terry Pratchett)
#51
Actually, the Canadian donair (shawarma, gyro, whatever) isn't much like a German doener kebap. The meat is somewhat different, as are the sauces, and the bread.
There is exactly one place in Canada that I know of which sells an echte Deutsche doener, and it's a German deli in Vernon, BC.
Nummy.
People here seem to think Avital is an ultra-orthodox. He's not. He's a religious orthodox, certainely, but he does not belong to the (very distinctive) group of the ultra-orthodox.
I'm mentioning that because in my opinion this is the main problem - the movement of unscientific, fanatic ideas from the "ultra" group into "mainstream" religion, and through them to the education system of the country as a whole.
The ultra-orthodox are (still) fringe. the example that raven @ 60 gives just prove the point - those anti-zionist groups are a far away from consensus as possible, and considered fringe even among the very religious. And no, if Avital was a holocaust deniar, he would not have kept his job (or get it in the first place).
I remember a (very sweet, kind) friend, who knew I was an atheist, came by my desk late in the afternoon of 9/11 and said, "I just realized... Who do you pray to when horrible things like this happen?"
When I told her I don't pray and feel no need to pray she just couldn't grasp it. She said she couldn't imagine not having someone to pray to about such things. I told her, "Well, at least I don't have to come up with a reason why God would let something like that happen."
And on that note.
The question then is, chosen for what? The only answer I've heard that doesn't fly in the face of a couple of thousand years of history is, "chosen to be an example to the world." That is, there are Jews who interpret "chosen people" to mean "here is this complicated set of ethical rules, that it is our responsibility to follow, as an example to the nations of right behavior."
I don't believe this--it still requires a god--but it isn't as absurd as claiming that god is particularly protecting or championing the Jews. (At least, not if god is remotely competent--and is there any value in being the chosen people of a completely incompetent deity?)
Remember this for any time someone responds to being called a AGW denier with a "You're just trying to smear me by likening me to a Holocaust denier!" style argument.
>>> Evolution is not a theory, but an observation point that anyone can see.
WRONG! It's a theory just like gravity is a theory. I thought the guy was a scientist? Shocker.
(I'll probably say this wrong, but oh well...)
I have a feeling you said this in jest, but I feel the need to respond anyway, for future readers of this thread. Evolution is an observation. Evolution by means of natural selection is a theory.
It's all so... American.
Aww, poor creatards. They will never understand that we laugh at them not because they're different but because they're stupid and wrong and insist on remaining that way.
@Stuart #14: Except around New York I don't meet many people who speak Yiddish anymore (and in places I've seen free Yiddish classes offered by people who have a passion to preserve the language). Come to think of it, no one I've met from Israel speaks Yiddish. How's your Hebrew though?
People here seem to think Avital is an ultra-orthodox. He's not. He's a religious orthodox, certainely, but he does not belong to the (very distinctive) group of the ultra-orthodox.
I'm mentioning that because in my opinion this is the main problem - the movement of unscientific, fanatic ideas from the "ultra" group into "mainstream" religion - tamar
Tamar, I understood that for the ultra-orthodox, what they or other Jews believe is much less important than what they do - strict Sabbath observance etc.; which would suggest that while they would not accept the reality of evolution, they would not be much interested in spreading this view, and Avital's influences are probably from elsewhere. What's your take on that?
Many creationists don't see themselves as being in a religion vs science argument but in a dogma vs dogma argument. They're promoting their religion over our religion, just like they promote evangelical fundamentalism over catholicism or mormonism.
Well seeing as the doctor is a citizen of a country whose entire rationalization for existence is religion, it would kind of be against his best interest to be a proponent for a theory that in many ways runs counter to the teaching of his holy book. . . I think he's completely wrong but it's pretty clear that he's not going to let reason stop him.
Another thought occurred to me right after I hit Submit on my post #77.
The reason why creationists disregard the argument "Catholics and mainstream Protestants accept evolution" is because the creationists know those guys accept all kinds of beliefs evangelical fundamentalists reject. Fundagelicals don't believe in the Jebus-cracker dogma so why should they believe in anything else Catholics believe?
To Knockgoats @ 76 -
It's true that the ultra-orthosox are concerned with the "observance" of the religion, though they would probably claim that the belief id part of it. The importance thing, in my opinion, is that those people are usualy concerned first and foremost with their own communities. Yes, there are missioners who try to "bring people to the religion", but among the ultra-orthodox, they are a small minority. I think this is the main reason that they don't see it is their mission to spread their views on evolution. It's more important to them that their community could keep its way of life without being interupted. When they do try to pass laws that affect the general population, it is, as you said, usualy around issues of religion observance: no public transportaion on the Shbbath etc. Of-course this is a generalization, as there are many different groups, with different approaches to the secular majority.
Avital is comming from a completely different group - one that see itself as an integral part of the state of Israel, and wish to influence it in every way. As a rule, they do not worry about their community only, but about the country as a whole. A man like Avital would probably want to have a say in what kids in *any* school in Israel are learning.
Hope that helped, and now good night - it's getting late here...
To #78 -
Um, it is possible to be an evolutionist and even an atheis, and still be an Israeli. Even an Israeli patriot.
It really is.
"...But what made it possible was the the power given by science and technology that the Israelis lacked and which the Germans had access to."
As already pointed out more than once, this is false. There were no Israelis in the modern sense before May, 1948. But consider the potential that was prepared by a thousand years of on-again-off-again persecution, often as horrifically bloodthirsty as the Holocaust.
I don't think you get to call yourself scientist if you "think" like Avital.
To be Jewish may also refer to one's cultural and ethnic heritage. There's nothing precluding one from being a non Judaism-following Jew, and indeed many are, as Tamar just noted.
#65"A couple thumbs and they think they are the Lords of Creation"
--Gaspode (Terry Pratchett)
Hah! Made my day!
Let's not forget - this is the country that had someone as health minister who couldn't bring himself to use the word "vagina", Kosherised swine flu and banned public displays of condoms.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1081546.html
and
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1117198/
I guess it's true. "Give a monkey a brain and he'll swear he's the centre of the universe." - Principia Discordia
Posted:
I just want to thank anyone who sent the Ministry Of Education a piece of her/his mind. It's always good to have the support of Atheists from other countries.
'that they are, beyond question, God's chosen people'
Given the history of nasty things happening to Jewish people, they might have been better off not being God's chosen ones. It seems that God did bugger all to look after them.
"the apex of all creation, the human being."
You just cannot make this stuff up. Personally, I think the apex of creation is the tiger and man was created as their food source.
Except around New York I don't meet many people who speak Yiddish anymore (and in places I've seen free Yiddish classes offered by people who have a passion to preserve the language). Come to think of it, no one I've met from Israel speaks Yiddish. How's your Hebrew though?
Ivrit Sheli lo tov...
Tamar's @67 and 80 posts which explain where Avital is with respect to the culture, politics and coalitions of the 'religious' parties/groups in Israel is quite crucial to understanding much about Israeli society, both in its more publicised issues such as the West Bank/Gaza etc and also with domestic politics and policy.
The term 'ultra-orthodox' is understood by many in the US/Eurpoe to be 'haredi' - the hassidic groups who still speak Yiddish and are largely separate from mainstream Isreli society (eg they don't do military service). They are not supporters of the state because of its non-messianic Zionist foundation.
Then there are the 'religious' who have grown much in influence and numbers over the last 30 years. These include groups like the settlers (those born in New York/Montreal/Cape Town/wherever who use the bible as a real estate guide to set themselves up in illegal or 'legal' settlements. They include supporters of rightwing religious parties like Shas (the representatives of the religious Sephardim who immigrated in the 50s and were percieved as 2nd class citizens to the more powerful Ashkenzim from Europe) and they especially include those shouty youths you see on TV wearing crocheted yarmulkahs - an accurate uniform of a certain kind of Israeli political belief.
Israel's political system is one of proportional representation. The 2 main parties (Labor and Likud) often have to form coalitions to get a majority in the Knesset. Thsi incluss the religious (2nd type) parties but increasingly it is these Likud has been pandering to - thus making right-wing politics and religious policy converge even tho Netenyahu is not exactly some class of rebbe. Sort of mirrors the US Republicans and their courting of Xtians...the comparisons are quite apt.
Finally: Israel was intended to be a entirely secular state but Ben-Gurion found he had to appease the Rabbis, so he gave the religious entire jurisdiction over stuff like marriage (there no civil weddings in Israel IIRC). Also he had to agree to let the haredi sit around in their self-imposed ghettoes (Meah Shearim and later Bnei Barak) arguing the toss over a certain comma in the Talmud and schorrering off of wealthy diasporans instead of working for and with the new state.
In my personal experience, the difference betweens ecular Israelis and these other 2 lots is immense and seemingly unbridgeable - and the religious (2) have a lot to answer for...
As a secular Jew I feel entitled to state that Judaism is the mother of all stupidity.
gyros--greek
kebap--turkish
Israel--1948
History illiterate @ 11,
Yes, which led to the germans finally prevailing in the hard-fought yearlong war between the 2 countries.
Ehm, yeah, like those great german scientists that "had access to better science and technology then the Jews".
Oh, wait, lots of them were *gasp*, jewish !
You, Sir, are a world-class know-nothing.
And after someone [finally] pointed this out to you, you said :
My ass. And you're talking out of yours.
As to this moron in the education ministry, as another commenter has said, he's not ultra-orthodox, far from it, he's just mainstream.
Ultra-orthodox, that's a whole different kettle of fish.Amish-type recluse, with no need for fatwa envy.