Every time a religious nitwit says something stupid, you turn around and another one has topped him. The head of the Catholic Church in Australia, Cardinal Pell, endorses cancer quackery.
"Yes obviously (cancer can be cured by prayer)," Cardinal Pell told ABC Television on Monday.
"And there are quite a number of examples in the books."
Cardinal Pell says that won't give sick people a false sense of security because they realise cure by prayer is a "very long shot".
Obviously?
Obviously?
Obviously not. There are no mechanisms, there are no data, only biased anecdotes from pious delusionists. There aren't any sensible examples on the books. These stories are easy to find, and they always have the same trajectory: person is diagnosed with cancer, they pray and pray and pray while getting the best medical treatment possible, and then if they get better, all the credit goes to the prayers. For example, Angela had throat cancer, and had several rounds of increasingly aggressive chemotherapy and a bone marrow transplant, and when the disease goes into remission, who is responsible? A dentist she visited who believed in angels!
I'd really like to know why Pell thinks prayer is a long shot, though. Is god busy? Does he dislike some people? Does it only work for good Catholics? Is there a certain secret magic wiggle you have to do during the prayer for it to be effective? Or is it just that he knows deep down that all these cures are are rare fortunate chance events that the Catholics take advantage of to steal credit?
- Log in to post comments
More like this
Prayer works almost as well as chance.
Context: Mary Mackillop has just become Australia's first saint after her second requisite "miracle" was identified: someone recently recovered from cancer after praying specifically to Mackillop. That's why someone bothered to talk to Pell.
I don't have much confidence in Cardinal Pell's taste in books.
There, fixed it for ya.
If it's a very long shot, it can't be said to obviously cure cancer. I wish these idiots would shut up.
Fixed that fix for you. Don't studies show a negative correlation, when the person is aware of the prayer?
I had a headache, took some paracetemol and prayed to Satan to cure me - and my headache went away! Does this mean Satan can perform miracles?
Really...? I wasn't aware of that.... But something is dredging up from the back of my memory along that line. I absolutely need to be more careful with my absolutist statements.
This has probably been posted here before, but a good rebuttal to all these miracle cures can be found here: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
CurlersRock, you beat me to it.
I wish someone would follow up questions about curing cancer/etc with prayer with a question about healing amputees, burn victims, etc with prayer. I would love to see the humming and hawing, and shuffling of feet on that one.
"Those who pray to God receive miracles!* "
*DISCLAIMER: By praying to God© and/or his associates you wilfully suspend your disbelief and agree to reject all forms of evidence supporting common sense. No responsibility will be taken by the Church© for Prayers© conducted in the absence of modern medicine. The Church© reserves all rights to miraculous events verified by anecdotal evidence for all eternity. You agree to pay a weekly fee to access the Prayers© service.
After heart attacks or bypass surgery, they do.
This Pell character is every bit as sleazy and evil as Germany's Kardinal Meisner, a real piece of work.
George Cardinal Pell makes a decent living and gets to wear a pretty red dress through pushing religion on anyone who'll listen. Of course he's going to endorse prayer. Do you gold necklaces grow on trees? No, the praying faithful provide the wherewithal for his cardinality to have them.
Oops, in my post #13 it should be "Do you think gold necklaces grow on trees?"
Don't be churlish. Prophet Brownian predicts that God will begin to heal amputees precisely as soon as medical science develops the ability to regrow limbs.
Yeah, it's great that God is so spot-on with suddenly allowing prayers for a particular condition to become effective as soon as humanity has developed the means to cure that condition.
I guess it just shows that he's paying attention.
Sometimes Google scares me :
Put in "regrow limbs"
Pentagon Plan to regrow limbs: Phase 1 complete
What's really interesting is that the spontaneous remission rate for cancers appears to not apply if you go to Lourdes. Considering the millions of people who go there, and there have only been something like 4 cancer cure "miracles" ever, that's lower than the general population. So it might be that going to Lourdes makes it LESS likely. Cool, huh? There is probably a paper in there, somewhere, but I don't give a shit.
(Hey, once I signed in once using google, now it's permanently using that mind-scaldingly ugly URL. Cool! Science bloggers are apparently some of the worst coders ever! But you don't give a fuck who I am, really, so - whatever.)
George Pell,
A clear example of prayer being like all medicinal drugs. Overuse can lead to side effects. In this case it appears to have caused an almost total loss of interlect.
Is he not suggesting that you not trust in the power of prayer, because it mostly doesn't work and that you should use that heretical science based mediacal quackery instead?
Have complete faith in my god except when you need him then it may turn out to be a "long shot"
Oh yes, too much prayer durring the 60's for him!
Those who pray to God receive miracles!
I've just got to channel my man Ray Wylie Hubbard on this one: "O LORD, if you get me out of this, I swear I'll never do it again." -- the only prayer I ever needed.
*Chuckle*
Not that it makes much difference, but I wonder about that "obviously" comment. They "obviously" paraphrased his answer, but without showing the actual question. I just wonder, was the question "Does prayer cure cancer?" or "Do you believe that prayer cures cancer?"
If the latter is true, then he would, well, "obviously" answer, "obviously"!
It's a load of crap either way, but it may show that the Herald is just as devious and deceptive as the Cardinal.
I still stand by my statement. The Catholics should be the least of our worries.
Sure, prayer can cure cancer. Except when it doesn't. In which case, god wanted you to die a horrible, lingering, painful death and put your family and friends through their own gut-wrenching agony so why are you trying to subvert god's divine will, you heretic!
For pain relief, take true belief,
And call me in the morning.
But be aware, there's nothing there
(Consider this your warning)
Devoutly pray, three times a day,
Not waiting for an answer;
And, what the hell, says Cardinal Pell,
It might just cure your cancer.
Pell is a homophobic, monotheistic, unscientific, delusional little man. He went on a rant recently saying religious freedom is being compromised by a recent Human Rights Commission submission.
Yeah, Pell is pretty much a nutter. But (thankfully considering that Catholicism is the largest denomination in Australia) it seems a large proportion of leading Catholics aren't anywhere near as bad as him. Only 5 of the leading 43 Catholics in the country (including himself) saw him fit enough to be the "lead" Catholic in the country.
Though thankfully his political clout is somewhat muted. He was the one who threatened politicians with being denied communion if they voted for a stem cell bill and it was just met with a large chorus of "stay out of politics" from those he threatened.
The Catholic's are going ape shit over here, what with Mary MacKillop's second miracle being all authenticated and "scientifically" proven by the certifiable Vatican scientists. Strange how they never release the methodology or data used to arrive at these so called proofs of miracles. Now why would that be?
Apparently all of us Aussies are supposed to orgasmic rapture about this fraudulent event. Personally I've yet to speak to anyone about it that didn't think it was purely chuckleworthy.
Mind you, as some wag put it in the responses to this news on the Daily Telegraph web site ".....at least it will take peoples minds off all the paedophile priests."
A gentleman I know is a normally intelligent, deep thinking individual. I respect the man, and work with him frequently. But he has these religious beliefs...... oh, geesh... does he have these religious beliefs...
He is a bible literalist. His statement on the bible: "If god can create the universe, the earth, and mankind, don't you think he could find an accurate publisher?"
So one day we are talking, and he describes his conversion. It involved faith healing being done to him. To the best of my recollection, no x-rays or other diagnostic images were taken to document said healing. Then it got better...
He described a time he went to the hospital to visit the sick spouse of a friend. The sick spouse had cancer. He asked the couple to pray, and they did. The next day, the couple called to state the cancer was gone.
Of course, while hearing this story, my first thought (I kept it to myself) was: "Why in the world are you wasting your time talking to me now? There's a pediatric cancer ward in each of the hospitals in this city - you should be there NOW!"
At least he shares in my dislike of the Catholic church (from his viewpoint - they got the whole god/jesus thing wrong... from my viewpoint - WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING TO THOSE BOYS?!?)
PeeZed ranted:
Dust is still laughing!
Funny how these muppets don`t blame dog for giving them the cancer in the first place.
Of course, prayers only really work when the subject doing the praying has plenty of midi-chlorian in their systems...
^_^
"Wait, what? Religious people have FAITH? Why don't they reject the supernatural unless it is borne out by rigorous scientific experimentation (which it never is, which proves that they are all dumb despite the fact that if there were supernatural forces they would by their very nature be impossible to describe using natural means)?"
Come on, now. You've got a perfectly legitimate theological bone to deal with (the problem of prayer, which is a really excellent and interesting debate with a long, proud history of philosophers) and all you can do is complain that religious people are religious? Really? You are complaining that people who believe in the power of prayer believe in the power of prayer, and think that it is obvious that it works? That is what passes for rational thought among atheists these days?
I'm all for attacking weak theological and philosophical points, but you could at least take a tack that doesn't just make you sound like you think that all religious people worship magical fairy princes in Mushroom Land.
(I am, for the record, a nontheist.)
[numeration mine]
You're equivocating. Believeing in gods and believing in the power of prayer are two distinct degrees of delusion things, and the former does not imply the latter.
The cardinal, as far as it is stated in the article, said that "Yes obviously (cancer can be cured by prayer)", not that "obviously, I believe that cancer can be cured by prayer", making a far-from-obvious empirical claim, as opposed to the usual useless claims about an ineffable god.
Such a specific [and baselessly confident] assertion is very dangerous if trusted too far, so it calls for special attention.
One could consider it a modern miracle on how these delusional fucktards have actually worked out how to breath and fart at the same time!
It is depressing to think that rationality in society has descended well below the basement levels and is rarely glimpsed above ground zero.
That fools actually go all bright shiny googly eyed over this rhetoric pays ample evidence to the fact that education and intelligence in society is scraping along the bottom of a very scuzzy barrel.
That religiotards are indeed fucking demented is a given, that the sheeple bah so compliantly to their 'shepards' is not only worrying but cause for serious rethink on the so called respect agenda.
How can anyone respect dumb insulting stupidity?
Seems that is more then time that religion is treated with the utter contempt and ridicule it so richly deserves.
Those fuckers are lying and manipulating through gritted teeth to vulnerable folk, and we are actually supposed to 'RESPECT' that?
Cure for cancer by praying to a frigging figment of a delusional imagination indeed... how fucking lame and desperate a claim is that?
That the congregation swallow the crap hook line and sinker the 'crows' spout, is just beyond explanation, either rational or indeed godly!
It is truly a mental illness created by chemical imbalance, and indecent exposure to toxic bullshite at to early an age to analyse effectively.
After ruthless indoctrination to jeebus lusting it reminds me of an adage that a group of clocks will eventually synchronize and tick together as if one!
That might be urban legend...but the affect is certainly seen in religiotard territory.
It really is becoming ridiculous that this insanity is allowed to be so expressed in public, so much for care in the community methinks!
rcrantz @ 33:
So, rather than dazzle us with the mighty power of your rational thought, you find nothing more to do than complain? Your concern is noted.
People believing in prayer is indeed silly; but this goes beyond silly. It's despicable when religious leaders state "obviously, prayer cures cancer" (or cures whatever) when there are plenty of people who would take that literally and end up dead because of it. They fucking know people will die, too, as they manage to stick in a cop out, such as "very long shot". It's no different from claiming sex with a virgin will cure AIDS. It's irresponsible, and enough people, notably children, die because their religious leaders claim prayer will work.
#33
"I'm all for attacking weak theological and philosophical points, but you could at least take a tack that doesn't just make you sound like you think that all religious people worship magical fairy princes in Mushroom Land."
Jeebus limping H bloody Christ on a stick!
They might as well be 'Sherlock'...get a grip for sanity sake!
As opposed to worshipping angels and saints in a Land of Golden Pavements and Pearly Gates, which is, obviously*, profoundly different.
*for low values of "obviously"
Angela’s a very typical “Christian” patient. Not only does she not give the doctors and modern medicine the credit for her “miracle,” she writes:
The way she writes it, it’s almost as though the doctor “reluctantly” wanted her to get well.
You see this mentality at play all the time in the religious world—“My faith was stronger than the doctors’ doubts.” “My doctor didn’t know I had God on my side” (and in Angela’s case, amulets and magical anointing oil.) Those poor doctors, left shaking their heads in confusion by a power greater than they can understand while the patient smiles knowingly.
It’s understandable that people will latch onto anything, use any device that will get them through a traumatic life-and-death episode, but in the meantime, money and resources get channeled away from scientific exploration and into churches and evangelical movements so that people like Cardinal Pell can further distort the populace’s perception of cause and effect. Disgusting.
Let's see:
1) Magic Talking Snake. Check.
2) Multiple arising from dead. Check.
3) Magic man creates World. Check.
4) Revelations chapter written in mushroom land (literally!) Check.
5) Magic man walks on water. Check.
6) Belief in guardian angels. Check.
7) Belief in holy ghost. Check.
8) Bad things sent by the baddie, Satan, Good by the goodie, God. Check.
9) Messages from God only received via men who wear pink pantomime dresses. Check.
10) Universe created by waving a wand. Check.
11) Unicorns really existed. Check.
Magical Princes in Mushroom Land? Sounds sane, compared...
The reverse situation in these controlled studies must be quite hard to arrange - because the religious scum can't stand the victim not knowing that they're being prayed for! From their behaviour (eg Christians not following their Bible's instruction to pray in secret rather than as a public display), it's typically not about the "magic" itself but the opportunity for self-aggrandisement and proselytisation - especially at a weakened victim. And then they feign innocence.
#41
'it's typically not about the "magic" itself but the opportunity for self-aggrandisement and proselytisation - especially at a weakened victim. And then they feign innocence.'
A case in point...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/bristol/somerset/8423265.stm
They just cannot control themselves...and this is not the first time she has been warned!
#42
Sorry SEF you already got there!
I received an unsolicited email professing the power of prayer. If only I pray to St. Theresa (the Little Way) my wish will be granted.
So I am praying fervently: "may all these people praying to you see the error of their ways and use their brains properly in the service of reality."
Let's see what happens boys and girls in the Peanut Gallery!
PS a bit of Wikipedia (I guess I'd label it "Another Profile About God's Heros"
"Thérèse as their youngest child experienced a fairly troubled childhood, and certainly up to the age of 13 had a strongly neurotic aspect to her personality - something which was to remain with her throughout her later life[4][5][6][7]. She was often sick and suffered from nervous tremors. Dr Gayral described in 1882 how Thérèse "reacts to an emotional frustration with a neurotic attack." [8]"
"Thérèse's final years were marked by a steady decline that she reportedly bore resolutely and without complaint. During the night between Holy Thursday and Good Friday, 1896, she began coughing up blood due to a pulmonary hemoptysis; her tuberculosis had taken a turn for the worse. Thérèse corresponded with a Carmelite mission in what was then French Indochina, and was invited to join them, but, because of her sickness, could not travel. In July 1897 she made a final move to the monastery infirmary, where she died on 30 September 1897, at the young age of 24. "
Ahhh - the love of gawd
rcrantz @ 33;
The is exactly the same strength of evidence (ie none whatsoever) for god as there is for fairy princes in Mushroom Land. To a rationalist there is really nothing to choose between these two unsupported positions. Both are fantasies.
If you do not believe me, then just try to prove beyond any and all doubt that fairy princes in Mushroom Land do not exist. Remember that Mushroom Land believers will be able to weild all the theist apologetics. Like butchering quantum physics and saying you do not understand everything about the Universe, therefore Mushroom Land.
There is, of course, one obvious distinction between the two concepts. One is harmless (at least for the time being), the other has been the cause of holy wars, torture, oppression, slavery, homophobia, misogyny and death on a vast scale, and continues to kill today both through religiously motivated violence and through straight foward (and often wilfully self-inflicted) ignorance.
Sorry, that should be 'There is exactly the same strength of evidence'.
God will eliminate your debts too...
Another slime bag cocksucker!
CNN's Christine Romans presents "In God We Trust: Faith & Money in America" Saturday at 8 p.m. ET on CNN.
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2009/12/18/in.god.we.trust.cnn
Followed by the miracle of the brainless baby...
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2009/12/18/in.god.we.trust.cnn
As I violently retch!
It's kind of like telling someone you hardly know that you will think of them tonight as you touch yourself.
The action per se is harmless and will make you feel warm and fuzzy afterwards, but telling the "object" about it seems a bit like harrassment.
We once knew a guy, a catholic, who suffered from scoliosis, but his condition wasn't obvious unless you knew what to look for.
One morning he comes into the office stooped over and in a fair amount of pain. What happened, we asked?
Apparently he had attended one of those faith-healing revivals. He went up for prayer and explained that when the preacher laid hands on him, he felt a jolt of electricity running through his body. He said he suddenly felt no pain in his back and spent the rest of the evening shouting and rejoicing in his miraculous healing.
He seemed puzzled that, by morning, his back hurt like hell, although it was obvious to us that there was a clear connection between the prayer, his reckless disregard for his condition, and his current state.
Oddly, his faith didn't appear to be shaken. He still believed that he had been healed, only temporarily. He never explained why he believed god had yanked his chain like that.
If anyone bothers to scratch on the veneer of paedophile-protector-in-chief for Australia, cardinal Pell, he or she will find a regressive, dishonest, lying slime-ball, who, like both the present and the the previous pope, tried to minimise the importance of the church's crimes of negligence.
Paedophile sympathiser Pell had of course his moment when the world's paedophile-protector-in-chief, Siegheil II, visited Australia. Together they are very representative of the catlick church, as well described in Tom Lehrer's introduction to The Vatican Rag
http://www.stlyrics.com/songs/t/tomlehrer3903/thevaticanrag185506.html
Fred the Hun #47
the case of the baby is a typical bait-and-switch. They withhold the fact that there are varying types of anencephaly. Different parts of the brain can be underdeveloped or nonexistent, which results in greatly varying life expectancy. The medical literature is very clear on this, and the parents and further family have undoubtedly been informed about the facts. Yet they choose to rest in the comforting (?) lie that it's a miracle that this baby was born incapable to enjoy much of life, and will die before ever recognizing his mother or speaking a word. And they choose to spread lies, hell-bent (!) on preserving superstitionism.
In our recent article by Branconnier and Moncheski entitled: Maturing Out of Addiction: An Age-Related Shift in Hyperbolic Temporal Discounting, http://www.addictioninfo.org/articles/3532, we presented the following scenario:
You are a recovering heroin addict. You have 60 days clean time. You decide that you will attend your Narcotic Anonymous home group tonight. As you arrive at the meeting you are greeted by one of your old running buddies. He has heroin and asked you if you want some. You immediately say YES. You go to the rest room, shoot-up and decide it’s a good idea to go to the meeting. You sit down, nod-off, fall on the floor and turn blue.
You are overdosed and are about to die.
What do you want your group members to do?
A. Pray for you or
B. Call 911 and get you a shot of Narcan ASAP
We suggest that you try this one your favorite rabid, fanatical Twelve Step supports and see what their answers are!
Case closed.
#52
And those lying clowns in the dresses know that only to well...when at the seminary they study sociology and psychology modules probably a lot closer then their theological ones...with good reason!
God, I hate religious people!
prayer really works!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk6ILZAaAMI
A miracle ? Miracle ? Srsly ?
One of my sister's friend had a similar experience. It ate up her life for a miserable 3 years. And she didn't have the child at home with her. When it died, they only emotion she could manage, tired as she was, was relief.
On the other hand, my cousin's grilfriend gave birth to a similarly handicapped six-fingered little girl (familial genetic defect), who died a few days later. After counseling they decided to attempt a second pregnancy, with the option to abort if the baby was abnormal. Now they have a healthy little girl and are quite happy.
I can easily see who had it better here.
Miracle ?
More like craptacle.
The funny thing is(not really), they will do both and then claim that the preying is what saved your life.
Oh sorry, I meant to say praying.
Reminds me of a joke (story?) I heard in church ages ago.
Guy gets cancer, has several doctors tell him "I can help you!", says "I'm going to pray because god will save me".
Inevitably, the guy dies, because he has fucking cancer and didn't get it treated, and when he gets to the Pearly Gates, he asks God why he didn't help him. "What are you talking about? I sent you three doctors! Why didn't you listen to them?"
Rutee, Shrieking Harpy of Dooooom @ 58;
*Rutee's phone rings. She answers*
Rutee; Hello? Who is this?
Anonymous caller;
*voice distorted technologically*
You are in great danger. You must flee immediately.
Rutee; Who the hell is this? What are you blathering on about? I am going to hang up . . .
Anonymous caller; If you do that you are signing your own death warrent. Trust me, I am a friend. You have just written a variation on the flood story. PZ hates that story with all the fiery passion of a hundred (fictional) hells. You need to run. Run now. Do not stop to collect any possessions. Get yourself and your family to safty. I will provide papers to get you all out of the country and furnish you with new identities. Many Bothans died to deliver these documents to us. We have to move quickly. PZ's crack death squad, The special tentacle services (STS) will already be on their way.
Rutee; Oh ha ha. This has to be a wind up. Frank, is that you? Its you isn't Frank? You almost had me going there. I'll get you for this.
Anonymous caller; What! You think this is a joke? You have no idea of the risk I am taking contacting you . . .
*sounds of a door splintering, stun grenades exploding and gunfire*
*coughs* They have found me. Get out!
*sounds of pistol shots*
Get out now! May Cthulhu watch over you.
*The phone goes dead*
Rutee; Hello? Hello? Are you alright?
*Rutee goes to the window and peeks out past the edge of the curtain. Shadowy figures are advancing from cover to cover across the garden. She grabs here coat and runs for the back door.*
No, he's mocking people who believe in the power of prayer and think it's obvious that it works, because those are ridiculous things to believe. The theological issue was dealt with a few thousand years ago by Diagoras of Melos, among others. There's no longer anything to debate. We know, without a doubt, that prayer does not cure cancer. That people still believe this even though it's obviously not true is crazy, and PZ is making fun of them.
Sorry about the mangled quote.