The Pope is on a grand tour of Africa, where he has been striking up a theme of — brace yourself — opposing superstition. The man who heads an institution with an official top exorcist is asking Africans to "shun witchcraft", and to reject fear-mongering talk of evil entities…
In his homily, he urged his listeners to reach out to those Angolans who believe in witchcraft and spirits. "So many of them are living in fear of spirits, of malign and threatening powers. In their bewilderment they even end up condemning street children and the elderly as alleged sorcerers," he said.
Right. Don't believe in malign spirits, like, say Satan. Has the Pope become an atheist lately?
Oh, I guess not. He's still demanding that people believe in supernatural occult powers that have battled and defeated other supernatural occult powers.
In his homily, the pope urged Catholics to try to persuade those who had left the Church that "Christ has triumphed over death and all those occult powers."
If only they would turn their powers of skepticism, critical thought, and rejection of unfounded supernatural phenomena on themselves, the Vatican would implode overnight.
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I love it when I get to quote myself:
You expect differently, PZ? You know full well they think other people's belief is superstition. But their own personal beliefs are Truthiness personified.
Facepalm.
Too much irony. Please pass the deferoxamine.
As Phil would say ...
The Stupid, it burns!
Some days, I feel as if I'm living in a satire. "The Onionmatrix", or something like that.
Wot no progroms...no burning heretics...no blasphemy...no inquisition...?
The RCC is slipping....or drowning...tis simply not as it were when the Malleus Maleficarum were wrote...now then dudes knew how ta party!
Give the pope some credit, PZ. He knows competition when he sees it. (It's a market-share thing.)
they should settle their scores the old testament way. One altar for RCC, the other for the shamans. Whose prayers will their deity/deities answer first, wins.
Right. This is the guy who condemns Harry Potter because witchcraft is EVOL!!!1!one!
From his perspective, of course, there is no irony---the Catholic Church has always condemned "superstition" which seems to be that cache of beliefs in unseen, nonmaterial powers other than those which the Church identifies with. By their lights, superstition is "unnatural" while all that god has deemed right and proper is by definition natural and cannot therefore be superstition. Comes under the condemnation of "false" gods clause.
Those who live by supernatural fictions, die by supernatural fictions.
What a fool Pope Rat is!
Just checked the link from PZ and nearly had a knicker accident...
The Pope broke my irony meter... again! *sigh*
He's probably trying to deflect attention from the new condom scandal.
Well, as evil as modern catholicism is - it is preferable to the kind of superstition that lets thousands of people on the African continent hunt and kill witches, albinos, people with "evil spirits" - and that lets so many commit genital mutilation on little girls.
Enlightenment would be preferable - but at least for the time being, there is no organisation that would spend the kind of monetary resources and manpower on helping these people overcome superstition rationally.
So, at least for the time being, roman catholicism would be a major improvement - facilitating the decouragement of violent practices more than anything else...
The health and the very lives of the people who would otherwise become victim to violent superstition ought to be more important than decouraging superstition altogether.
Plus, a catholic is (from my experience at least) easier brought to reason than a protestant. Kinda figures, since it was and is mainly protestantism that grants the individual believer the leeway to see himself as having the faculty to truthfully interpret the Bible without the help of scholars through this "direct connection to god"... and as such it comes as no surprise that it is mainly protestants who use the bible to justify whatever cruelty and injustice they wish to inflict, to debase anything that doesn't fit into their preconceived views.
In any case - unless we can outmatch the catholic effort to eradicate the kind of violent superstition that's rampant there, we should at least not try to stop them - except of course concerning the condoms and abstinence issue, where the world does seem to have the will and the power to help by sending condoms and instructing people on how to use them and why.
my favourite part was when he condemned "creeping materialism" in Africa.
out of touch much?
I don't see why they want to shun witchcraft. Think of the value if they took it up. The Popemobile would not need the bulletproof glass with that kind of protection. I say, the RCC is misguided.
More superstition, not less!
If anything, the recent slew of inanities uttered by the german sheperd and his underlings urged me to finally send the formal request for dechristening that I couldn't be bothered to do so far...
So, at least for the time being, roman catholicism would be a major improvement - facilitating the decouragement of violent practices more than anything else... - Pragmatic-Atheist
I suggest you take a look at the prominent role of Catholic clergy in the Rwandan genocide.
How odd. The RCC in the late middle ages was the greatest advocate that humans are surrounded by demons. They were everywhere, ubiquitous. That is why Pope Innocent VIII set up the Inquisition.
The number of people burned at the stake for being witches isn't well known. It is believed to be 60,000 or so but could be much higher.
Don't know what their position is today. But they still do exorcisms.
#19: Dechristening?
@22
Thomas, I fear I might have just made the word up... In short, in my neck of the woods (italy) the RCC keeps a record of the people who have been baptized and you will always be formally considered a catholic unless you
a) do something theologically gruesome enough to earn you an excommunication (which might have been fun but not exceedingly practical for me) or
b) ask to have your name removed from the list.
This btw has also other implications for our tax system. i.e. the lesser official catholics there are, the smaller subsidy will be awarded to the church.
Oh no, 72 hours passed and simon the ghoul rose from his grave deep in pharyngula dungeon !
Sweet Mother Earth!
I should find all of this very funny if it weren't for the fact the ludicrous statements this Poop (sorry, pope) spouts so easily and sanctimoniously was NOT costing human lives.
How many (tens?) of thousands will die of AIDS because this idiot doesn't understand how condoms can help prevent the spread of the virus?
How many innocent men, women and children will be burned alive because they are suspected of being witches?
...and then he says we must "help the poor". He would help greatly by sewing his ignoran mouth SHUT.
When dogma costs human lives and renders their already precarious situation worse it is no longer spiritual: it is criminal.
tell me, ghoulish troll, why is life of an immortal meaningful and life of an mortal not ?
If 110 years of it have no meaning at all, why infinity of it does ?
A estupidez! Queima!
Simple Simon the Gay Lieman. Your god doesn't exist and your bible is fiction. You have no proven otherwise, so those are true statements. So you have nothing either. Face reality.
Are you better than mother Theresa ? - Simon
Just about anyone is better than that evil, sadistic, corrupt arselicker of tyrants.
Shorter Pope: "The power of Christ compels you! Get thee behind me, African demons!"
The sad part is Catholicism is probably one of the saner churches preying on that poor, tormented continent. African Anglicans and Pentecostals are more proactive with their battle against witchcraft - for example Pastor Muthee, you betcha.
I'm sort of used to this sort of thing, but maybe I've watched too many advertisements on television. This is marketing speak. The Pope is pimping his wares by talking s*** about his competitors. Who cares if it's intellectually dishonest?
If we got outraged over every cheap marketing gimmick used by a religious leader, well, I think there would be a much higher rate of aneurysms in the atheist community.
@17 arekksu
Oh, no, not at all. You see, a lot of people in Africa long for material things like food, water and clothing. If only they pursued instead the spiritual riches like obedience to the Pope...
This sort of thing from the Church always makes me think of the Bene Gesserit. The Sisterhood, however, genuinely had the best interests of humanity at heart.
Simon @23: ""Christ has triumphed over death and all those occult powers."
i like this quote, it is Christian's hope to rise with Christ after death, so life is meaningful.
Atheists do not have this hope, so their life is hopeless.
Are you jealous ?
Are you better than mother Theresa ?
...."
I'm not a Christian, so I have neither the hope nor the expectation that I will be reanimated with Christ, or with anyone else. Nevertheless, my life is meaningful and enjoyable because I make it so every day that I live.
Your (earthly) life must be very empty if the only thing that makes it worthwhile is something that you HOPE will happen after you die.
No, I'm not jealous of you.
Gaga @19
Please don't compare the pope to a German Shepherd, as a comparision it demeans the German Shepherd enormously.
Of course, if you compared him to a slug, it would demean the slug too.
PZ: If only they would turn their powers of skepticism, critical thought, and rejection of unfounded supernatural phenomena on themselves, the Vatican would implode overnight.
Are you nuts, PZ? They have the Jesuits for that! How else can they defend themselves (successfully) against reason for two millenia without having their own ringers?
You can always rationalize away reason if you're clever enough. Just read the last Pius's work on DOMA -- they understand perfectly what they're up against, and how to win (which is primarily finding the right ambiguity to split).
I just recently saw South Park, Season 11, Episode 6 (I believe), called "Fantastic Easter Special".
I can recommend it to everyone who always wanted to know the truth about the Catholics :D
And: Am I the only one who always gets startled about who close the pope resembles Imperator Palpatine?
@ 36
Ok, point taken :D
You’d better not be an albino witch in Africa...
To think of all the stupidity that will still be left after Christianity, Islam and other global superstitions have been overcome makes one despair.
And by the way, Simon, my children are atheists and I fervently hope that they will never be infected with the religious brain rot of which you show the ugly symptoms.
What a load of BS! So someone who has to toe the party line is more 'reasonable' than someone who actually examines something and thinks for themself?
It's not like catholic scholarship has produced anything that protestants haven't. In fact often the scholars have shown RCC dogma to be incorrect. The RCC first and foremost adhere to dogma and worry about reason later.
OT: Speaking of Pastor Muthee, Redoubt volcano erupted late last night in Alaska and is continuing to erupt even now. The ash cloud is apparently bearing down on the Susitna Valley close to where the church is located that Muthee was visiting when he blessed Palin against witchcraft.
Hi Bill Dononue (from the superstitious catholic league), will you apologize for your rant against PZ now that Benny Hex officially is against any form of superstition?
Driving nails through crackers should be OK now or is just a "my superstition is bigger than yours" thing?
This will just make it worse for the people that the mobs wanted to kill anyway.
#17
Accusing Africans of materialism is equally idiotic as accusing AIG of communism.
I almost never say stuff like this:
Simon you little piece of flotsam go join your heavenly overlord. Do it today.
Simple Simon the Deluded Lieman. You have nothing to offer us. Your bible is fiction, and you haven't shown us otherwise. Your testament is nothing but lies. You need to fade into the bandwidth, but you are too stupid to do so.
#26
1.6 million HIV deaths per year or 1.5 "nine-elevens" each and every day with no end in sight.
Deaths from witchcraft pale in comparison to this number.
44#
Indeed...and we hope that Simon might be xian enough to depart in peace or leave in pieces....not fussed which!
Let's see, you hate sex and you fear aging. I am so sorry that just the act of living is so distasteful for you. And to answer one of your earlier question; I cannot see how ant half way rational person could be jealous of a wretched creature like you.
Funny thing, I answer you even though I know that a person like you will not give even a millisecond of time to consider what anybody has to say. Yet you consider what you have to say so important that you created a new account in order to get around a ban.
My Precious!
Andrés Diplotti @33 nails the "materialism" thing. I'm pretty sure he's not using "materialism" in the sense of "greed"; he's using it in the sense that the secular left is materialistic - taking care of peoples stomachs before worrying about their souls. I suspect Joey Ratz doesn't approve that; he'd rather people die young, poor and ignorant in a state of grace than live with sanitation and education but no salvation.
Its really just a QC issue isn't it? It takes years of training to conduct proper exorcisms and witch burnings.
Simple Simon the irrelevant Lieman. Still telling lies. Your god doesn't exist and your bible is fiction. Prove otherwise. Until you do, you are a liar and bullshitter, and we know it.
Nice name for the stoopid git. Precious Simon
@52
I know I'm wasting electrons here, but...
the fact that something would be nice if existed doesn't really make its existence any more likely...
"if there is no life after death, it is just not fair[...]"
well, tough shit
you have to harden the fuck up
Is this news? Since when was monotheistic religion known for its admirable level of self-awareness?
Seeing that you hate life, it comes as no surprise that you think that people with a disability have no reason to hope. It is so inspiring to watch you use your faith to disparage other people. Wretched creature.
It is nothing new, the same hypocrisy of all religions: condemn all other religions as "superstition," proclaim that one's own religion is the "one true religion."
SimpleSimon: one day you can't make it. Like PZM, he is about unable to make it, 52 years old with glasses, soon he will have a cane and probably get gout or rheumatoid. Then you will know your life just like wind.
Ya think, you moron? I'm pretty sure that PZ knows perfectly well that "life is like the wind" -- anyone over the age of 30 has pretty much learned that "life is suffering", other than you Christian cretins who want to live under the delusion that there's a loophole to reality.
It's the evanescence that give life its value --- it's the very fact that every choice is permanent, can not be undone, that every sacrifice you make for others is real, and not just a pawn-sacrifice in a heavenly chess game, that NOW matters deeply.
Instead, you prefer to fantasize that you're a universal dictator's foot-licker, who will make all the bad things go away with a wave of his magic wand; you make all of of life and love meaningless, just a calculation in a petty game of who can suck up the most for the eternal reward. What a vain, empty life that is, without a real basis for morality and meaning, being nothing but a dog being trained for a walk through a breeding contest.
Go home, read the last 5000 years of philosophy, literature and poetry, from the Sumerians through the Stoics into contemporary work, and then maybe you might have some idea about "the wind", you canker, instead of your petty whining about arthritis.
Ah, what a lovely idea. Would it go in a puff of white smoke?
Incidentally the world "implode" has a technical definition within Shamanism - it describes the Witch Doctor's patient list.
I feel playful.
No. Because as an atheist, I can point to many different aspects of my reality that have meaning, or better still, allow me to create something meaningful:
(a) I continue to read and research and listen and learn, because I believe it is my responsibility as a human being to be the most knowledgable human being I can be. Why? Because knowledge gives me better tools with which to improve the lives of myself and others, which is a very meaningful use of my limited lifetime.
(b) I will pass on the best parts of me to my daughter. Not my physical characteristics - those things that provide merely the foundation of my humanness - but my values, my love of critical thinking, my constant questionning, my love of humanity, my cherishing of the practical over the patently ridiculous. This, too, I deem a meaningful use of my time.
(c) I create. I write, I paint, I draw, I craft things; I make things that have use, I make things intended to entertain the senses, or merely to express my inner self for no one in particular. These are things that intelligent minds have need for; they provide food for our thought processes as bread does for our bodies, giving our species a collective energy upon which is built our rich and varied cultures. Again, a very meaningful use of time.
Recognize that the individual hope for life after death is a very selfish one; what good is this "meaning" to your fellow human being? How do you find virtue in saying "I shall live forever, though my brother and sister be condemned to final annhilation or eternal torture"? For though you would say that you work to help save your brother and sister through prosletyzation, let me say to you that if there is indeed a god who would so capriciously send untold billions of souls to spend eternity in a lake of fire, that god is a monster, and you are a monster for speaking in his defense.
It is the believer in such silliness who is creating a false "meaning" to existence; it is the believer in such an afterlife that is selfish to the extreme, and filled with hopelessness for others.
I am an atheist, and I am not hopeless. I know that I am merely a small part of a larger chain of being, one among many human beings; and that what meaning there is in life is to be found in helping us all to progress as a species toward a day when there is less of what holds us back - less war, less starvation, less ignorance, less poverty - and more of what real, practical hope is made of - more education, more equality, more tolerance, more freedom.
Yes - and so is every human being who serves others in hopes of helping them rise up out of squalor and misery, the conditions in which Mother Theresa was content to leave millions who looked to her for help. Instead of real, practical assitance, she offered them only snake oil and platitudes - and false hope.
Last night, I heard some odd arguments from some fellow atheists. They claimed that Africa would be better off going Christian because it's a step up from the tribal religions they may currently practice.
I argued that secular education was the key to success in Africa, that it would be better to teach the local people about biology, microbes, viruses and modern medicine.
I'm not sure why they would need Christianity as a transition toward secularism? It seems more like a curse from the West than a cure. Are there any definite plans out there, some forum out there with practical solutions to the problems in Africa, a long term rescue plan of some description? Anyone have any ideas?
p://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MTNlNDc1MmMwNDM0OTEzMjQ4NDc0ZGUyOWYxNmEzN2E= )
Patricia, I was comparing siMon to Gollum in The Lord Of The Rings. His belief is The Ring that corrupted him.
Yes, I know Tolkien was a Roman Catholic.
It isn't fair. That's why you need to work to eliminate the unfairness.
Which of course also sums up the position of the Church in regards to the legitimate grievances of the poor - "Don't complain about your lot, your reward will be in heaven." Lies told by the powerful to maintain the unjust status quo. Shame on you, Simon.
Bobber @#63--that was a great comment.
Simon the Lieman, you have no hope because you are stupid. Your posts show nothing but stupidity. If you want to show us your intelligence, fade into the bandwidth.
Why is that spindiform lump of chemicals still posting here? Jeez, we've got enough trouble with the fuckwits who survived "Survivor" without having to put up with those who didn't.
Fuck off, again, Simon. I demand a rematch for his winning sperm!
Because clearly, demonic possession and crackers turning into dead guy meat aren't superstitious at all. Maybe he thinks it's like good cholesterol and bad cholesterol.
First, you get all over PZ because he is aging, that it is a bad thing. And then you claim to be looking forward to it. Stupid wretched creature.
I also love how you assume that I have not had misery and suffering in my life. And I also love how you assume that I will believe as you do when it does happen. Short sighted and unempathetic wretched creature.
I thought simple sImOn was banned? What a loon.
Josh:
Thanks! I am sure that I am not alone in being tired of hearing "you are an atheist, you must have no hope". What a load of tripe. Do I want to die? No. But why would that prevent me from appreciating the people around me, the beauty (and interesting ugliness!) of the world I live in, the awesomeness of the universe? The fact that I am an infinitesmal part of existence doesn't belittle me; I marvel all the more at the immensity of the cosmos, at the incredible, mind-boggling variation of life, of its very tenacity in the face of changing environments, disasters, and extinctions.
An atheist is FULL of wonder, the same wonder that a child experiences when she learns something new. I learn new things every day, and I revel in that ability. Many believers in revealed truth have LOST that sense of wonder - for them, there is nothing new, nothing that can change their faith or alter their perspective. It is the skeptic who is constantly excited by life, because we continue to search, inwardly and outwardly, for knowledge. Intellecual stagnation is not "meaningful".
MikeMa, the wrteched creature is banned. He just changed his account. We have to wait for PZ to get back online and see that he has a new e-mail address to ban.
Janine - Yeah, I got the reference to Gollum/Simon, very appropriate. I'm starting to think Simon isn't just stupid, he may be crazy.
So, Simon, once you are in heaven and have everything you want, hope will be pointless. You won't need hope, or belief, or faith.
So clearly hope ISN'T necessary to be happy and fulfilled because supposedly you will be happy and fulfilled in heaven without all those things you claim are so important.
I shouldn’t feed the troll, but the poor creature looks so hungry and miserable, so...
What are you hoping for, Simon? That one day your God will pick you from this earth and puts you in his lap and pats you on the head and says: "Good boy, Simon, now you are forever with daddy?"
Grow up! Get a life!
Bobber, I have to agree with you. My normal state is to be rather cranky. (Bet that comes as a surprise.) Yet I go about trying to view my surroundings in different ways. Just because I see everything in gray does not mean it is the same shade of gray.
At times, I am astounded that in the swirling of materials, this bubble of atoms as well as similar bubbles of atoms became self aware enough to try to understand their own essence. And I do not need a god for this sense of wonder.
Simple Simon the Hopeless Lieman has been posting here for over a year. He has just got a lot more obnoxious lately. He still doesn't have a clue about atheists, and I suspect he is a bit deranged. After all, sane people understand when they are wanted and leave. So hopeless Simon isn't all there.
Crazy and stupid is no way to go through life.
RE: Post #23 "Simon"
"Christ has triumphed over death and all those occult powers."
“i like this quote, it is Christian's hope to rise with Christ after death, so life is meaningful.”
If that is the only meaning you find in your own life you are one pathetic sack of skin, but hey, at least you can justify any brutality, atrocity and obscenity committed against you by pretending the books will balance when you are run over by a shit cart and are transported to the celestial version of rock candy mountain.
“Atheists do not have this hope, so their life is hopeless.”
Just because we do not have THAT hope does not mean we have neither hopes nor dreams it merely means we have OUR OWN hopes as opposed to the fevered night terrors of elderly alcoholic golf obsessed virgins.
“Are you jealous ?”
Yes. Of Dr. Robert Lanza (great house and he looks 30 even though he is 53).
“Are you better than mother Theresa ?”
She thought the alleviation of suffering and the comfort of loved ones was satanic because it distracted the dying from their experience of Christ’s pain....She lied to celebrities about what was going on in her death houses because she liked attention and money.....so yea, pretty much anybody is better than Albanian Agnes the Sadistic Star Sucker.
“Btw, if i am not wrong you have 2 kids, are they atheists too?”
The wife and I intend to raise a whole herd of atheists. My sister has two and both my nieces have professed atheism. That’s four American generations and counting. What’s your point?
In addition to the inherent irony in his statement, the dude's not even internally consistent. Do "evil spirits" and the like exist now or not? If he thinks the answer is yes, why does he chastise people who believe they do? If he thinks the answer is no, how can his pal J.C. have triumphed over them?
You'd think he'd at least be intelligent enough to realise he can't have his cake and eat it, too.
Well it says church fail, but I see it as a signage win.
http://failblog.org/2009/03/23/church-fail/#comments
*headesk*
#77 next to last sentence: After all, sane people understand when they are not wanted and leave.
Muffin, "evil spirits" DO exist! They're the ones that give you a hangover.
Janine,
is pure poetry. And that's just it - who among us doesn't look at P.Z.'s posts about a newly-discovered fossil, and say, "Whoa! That's amazing!" Why do I need to invoke a miracle to be awestruck by something? The natural world is far more complex and interesting than anything ever scrawled by a prophet on sheepskin.
So yes, an atheist can appreciate the universe, and an atheist can hope, and an atheist can love. And an atheist doesn't need an imaginary parent type to tell him or her how.
“Atheists do not have this hope, so their life is hopeless.”
I'm hoping that the French Onion Soup I'm making for a friend for dinner turns out as good as, or better than, the last batch I made.
Did Prometheus just win this thread?
Ewww! Look out Nerd, the stoopid is rubbing off on you. :D
Nerd has Chimpy cooties!
Nerd has Chimpy cooties!
I don't know - maybe to become governor of New York State?
The Pope condemned sorcery. And then at mass he summoned unseen spirits.
So someone tell me why, if this is the same Simon who got plonked in the Dungeon, is Simon still allowed to continue posting his disgusting, yet inane Christianity-inspired profane gibberish?
He morphs. That means sometimes he doesn't get cleaned up until I notice him.
Booyah!! Very well said. While I have my own version, yours is slightly more eloquent than "Your God is a dick."
MrSquid said
And yet, you have communicated the exact same idea using far fewer key strokes. Verily, brevity is indeed the soul of wit!
(I'm not known for my parsimonious use of words. During my college public speaking class, I went so far over my time limit that the professor was making cut-throat motions in the back of the room and held up a sign that said something along the lines of "Enough, already!")
There's something not right about a religious leader who believes in exorcism and an invisible realm of angels and demons telling Africans to give up their ghosts and witches.
Ghost fight! Yay!
If I have blind children, their hope is to have their blindness reversed in their lifetime through the fruits of science. Every year we get closer to functioning electronic eye replacements, something that prayer has notably failed to achieve.
MAJeff, OM offers a prayer in post#85
"I'm hoping that the French Onion Soup I'm making for a friend for dinner turns out as good as, or better than, the last batch I made."
Fear not my child, your prayers were answered long ago...
From the Gospel of Food
Saint Julia of the Mallet
http://brandoneats.typepad.com/brandon_eats/2007/02/soulwarming_fre.html
In fairness to the Pope, Africans murder far more people in the name of African superstitions than African Catholics murder in the name of their superstitions[1]. From a humanitarian aspect alone, it'd be an improvement if Africa dumped its folk superstitions even if it fully adopted Catholic superstitions instead.
[1] I'm excluding the effects of opposition to AIDS education and contraception bans here...
#93-Bobber:
Oops, I had meant to cite your earlier post in mine. Got distracted and forgot.
I don't think I can blame the Rev. BDC's cooties for my big error. That was me typing too fast and not proofreading. Smaller typos I can blame on the cooties.
Yeah, I think it's called dain bramage.
I was reminded of Carole Compton who was a nanny accused of witchcraft in Italy in the 1980's after a fire at her employers home.
Commenting on the case at the time "Father Gabriel Amorth, the Vatican’s chief expert on exorcisms, indicated that the Roman Catholic Church has not ruled out the possibility of demonic intervention.
According to the Italian daily newspaper, Il Messagero, he said: "I’ve seen things like this before. Demons occupy a house and appear in electrical goods. Let’s not forget that Satan and his followers have immense powers."
She spent 16 months in Jail as a result of accusations
of being a sorceress which formed the basis of an Arson charge of which she was found guilty.
I think the Vatican needs to start a bit closer to home before lecturing other parts of the world.
I do think he understands that. What he actively refuses to understand is that humans fuck, almost like bonobos.
I've just visited the "Science of Watchmen" thread and am therefore in the appropriate mood to tell you that you're telling MAJeff not to be afraid of your child -- "don't fear my child" in modern English. What a difference a comma makes.
Nooooooo. You misunderstand the subtleties. The Pope asks people to continue believing in evil spirits, but to just ignore them as powerless, or at least to pray to the right god for protection.
Nicole: I'm not sure why they would need Christianity as a transition toward secularism? It seems more like a curse from the West than a cure.
That's just Western arrogance. If you look at the development of the Judeo-Roman religions, Christianity, Islam, etc, they look more like an immune reaction to the breakout of secularity at the end of the Iron Age.
The non-monotheistic local religions have their problems of course -- but at the end of the day they lack a global organization to defend them, or a rationalization specifically against empiricism (in general). Christianization and Islamization would probably mean centuries long interruption in the development of Africa.
Just compare to Japan. They rejected outright Roman religions, and were able to develop incredibly quickly.
Alex #102: The pope HAS a dain? Even half a dain?
I always thought from his pronouncements that he was dain-dead...
Of course he has a dain:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WK64UFwzrLA
I think he does understand this. It was one of the three lessons he got on human sexuality at Pope school. The other two were "No, not you", and "Not with women, anyway."
The main reason the Pope is against African witchcraft is because penis stealing thwarts his boy-diddling designs.
Pragmatist-Atheist #16 wrote:
You're right about the very real dangers of African belief in witchcraft -- and if Africans will take their orders from a less violent religion, then there's some pragmatic benefit. However, I think that it's very hard to impose a humanist-style form of Catholicism on a country which embraces Catholicism primarily for its already-familiar superstitious elements.
Instead, you get a sort of voo-doo forming, where Catholic theology meshes with animistic tribal religions. Since the Catholic faith already accepts belief in the powers of Satan and the existence of witches, its African priests are not likely to be successful when they tell their followers it's all a 'metaphor' or 'it hardly ever happens.'
Nicole #61 wrote:
There are several active humanist groups in Africa fighting against superstition in general, and the witch-mania in particular. The one I think of first is the Nigerian Humanist Movement (it recently called for academic papers to be presented at a "National Conference on Witch-hunt, Christian Fundamentalism and Child Abuse" that's going to be held there in October.)
Its executive secretary, Leo Igwe, wrote a letter a few weeks ago to the Guardian in response to an atheist who (like your fellow atheists) argued that Africa "needs religion."
http://www.ngrguardiannews.com/editorial_opinion/article04//indexn2_html?pdate=110309&ptitle=Africa%20needs%20development,%20not%20God
He says no, and writes:
"Missionaries do not educate Africans to think for themselves or to exercise and express their individual curiosity and thought. They educate Africans to become slave to Christianity and to accept blindly and not to question, or challenge the Christian god, the Christian doctrines and the Christian dogmas... I agree with Matthew Parris that African thought is driven by anxiety, fear of evil spirits, of witches and wizard etc. The same is applicable to Christianity and also to all religions so, Christian evangelism cannot liberate the African, mind or help cast off the crushing tribal group-think that hampers its development."
At best, the Pope can only provide a temporary band-aid -- though a better medical analogy might be one of "bleeding."
You know it has gotten pretty bad, when Stephen Colbert, a proclaimed catholic, starts in the on the pope.
There goes my brand new Irony-meter 1499-C!!!
I knew I should have stayed with the multi-Quack-o-Meter.
Catholics
There, I fixed it.
#61:
Ironically, the one thing that improved the lot of Africans the most was colonialism. Most African states were better off in the colonial era than they are today. Everything else the west has tried has been an abject failure at the hands of African misgovernment, kleptocracy, and patrimonial rule.
Short of recolonizing the continent, the best the rest of the world can do for Africa might be to completely leave it alone--no aid, no trade, no intervention, no political interference, no weapons sales--until the continent is either depopulated or Africans find one or more civilizational solutions that work for them.
If there's to be a solution to Africa, other than recolonization, it will have to come from Africans themselves.
Yes, ghastly fellows, those darkies, with their cannibalism and tribalism and superstition and dictatorial governments all that. Certainly no enlightened Westerner ever engaged in such things.
You, sir, are a moral freak and a historical illiterate.
This Dutch cartoon sums up the Pope's stance on AIDS in Africa pretty well. ---> http://www.tompainesghost.com/2009/03/dutch-free-speech.html
My cousin was an exorcist for the Catholic church, trained in the Vatican. One of my best friends is a Pygmy Shaman (most people are unaware that there are shamans among the Pygmies, but there are a few).
My cousin the exorcist convinced my dying grandfather to give the home he lived into the church, so his sister was left on the street and had to live with us for the rest of her life.
My friend the shaman once cut a poison arrow out of me and saved my life. Those were two different occasions ... the poison arrow would not likely have killed me. He also used to make it rain and stop raining on a regular basis, but I could always tell by the way he winked at me when he was doing the rain magic that he didn't believe any of it.
I'm glad I wasn't the only person to catch that little nugget of funny.
#115:
Was that directed at me?
If so, you'd do well to put away your moral indignation and take a good look at Africa's constant dollar GDP per capita before and after independence and at total foreign aid into the continent vs. illicit capital outflows out of the continent.
The problem with Africa is Africa's governments. That's not something the west can fix without reimposing colonialism.
No Vagrant, it was directed to that duck on your shoulder. Africa is a country? Where have we heard that before?
How much have you donated, Simon?
What were all the half-a-million dollar Catholic projects for in Angola and Cameroon. Where is the audit of the $18.7 million? Show us the money. For all we know, the Pope could be building churches with all that money, and that would be a horrible thing indeed. And aren't you supposed to be banned from the island, Simon? What a seditious little troll you are.
If you read the website for Aid to the Church in Need you'll see that most of what they fund is church business.
"SUDAN
A course in discernment for young men interested in the priesthood
CAMEROON
Training 35 seminarians in the archdiocese of Garoua"
CONGO REPUBLIC
Help to complete the convent of the Helpers of Mary Immaculate
MADAGASCAR
Help to build a convent for the sisters of Our Lady of La Salette
UGANDA
Ongoing spiritual formation of religious men and women in Namugongo"
It's really not much of a charity.
So, Simon, tell us again how many more people can be fed with a convent than with, say, food?
Am I better than Mother Teresa?
...well, the dying people I look after get adequate pain relief, proper beds, oxygen as needed and drainage of fluids that compromise their breathing, surgery if necessary to relieve pain, treatment of infection (if they choose to have it), and all sorts of other things to ensure their last weeks/months are of a quality that makes living worthwhile.
Mother Teresa had a fetish for suffering - other people's suffering, that is. Any decent doctor with an interest in palliative care is revolted by her.
Umm...A world famous musician?A British Member of Parliament (and cabinet member)?A famous novelist?A famous engineer?...kudos to anyone who can name all of these...Simon is emblematic of the filth that disabled people have to deal with
Anyone get a sense of projection here?Fortunately, Simon, medical professionals treat everyone. Even filthy little fucks like you.
@Vagrant
Oh, you mean like apartheid? As a resident of a country that used to be a Spanish colony, I will say this. You obviously have no idea regarding what you're talking about.
@SimoN #128
That what you say in the mirror everyday?
@Tassie Devil
Two blind (and very talented) musicians:
Andrea Bocelli (Tenor)
Stevie Wonder (Singer/Songwriter)
hah u dont even kno wat ur talking about.
Yes, that was directed at you. Don't see any other morally degenerate clueless racists around here, do you?
I'd say moral indignation is the proper response a normal human being should have when faced with the proposal to KILL OFF THE POPULATION OF A WHOLE FUCKING CONTINENT. Don't you think?
Yeees, Africa's troubles are all the fault of incompetent and greedy black folk, struggling to survive now that benevolent Bwana has callously abandoned them. Certainly the systematic pillage of their resources, massacres of the native population, total lack of any infrastructure investment during colonial times that wasn't directly intended to facilitate systematic pillage of resources, the separation of tribes and cultures by arbitrary colonial borders, the racial discrimination and occasional favouritism of one ethnic group over another in a "divide and conquer" policy, the decades of Western powers propping up dictators or funding rebel movements, and the idiocy of Western religions actively harming AIDS prevention efforts in Africa had nothing whatsoever to do with it.
Once again, sir, you are a historical illiterate.
Simon,
Your whole religion is a lying sack of hypocritical shit. Your leader, the pope is carrying the sack and handing out it's contents in Africa, where sadly, they have enough.
If you wish to live your life as a hypocrite, please do so in the privacy of your own home and leave it out of here.
I find that interesting, Simon. You are telling us in very clear words that if you had blind children, the only hope they'd have would be to die sooner rather than later.
Be ashamed, for you hate your neighbor.
This may already have been said - but the pope sounds in the above quotes as if he's taking the same basic attitude toward other belief systems that the early church did. Early Christianity was completely surrounded by the complex pagan kaleidoscope of the Mediterranean/Middle Eastern world (and was a descendant of it).
The church fathers and proselytizers did not claim that the supernatural powers worshiped by pagans didn't exist. Instead they (at least the sternly dualistic ones that came to dominate the orthodox church) held that these beings were diabolic entities who deceived mortals into thinking they were gods (since only the god of Abraham, Isaac, and Jesus could be capital-G God).
Pope says like he's essentially saying the same thing. Wonder if he is? If Jesus triumphed over them, as he says, do they still exist? Is the great thunder god Shango, for instance, dwelling somewhere in the Catholic hell?
Commenter #4 is my hero. ^^
An atheist lacks hope in the way that someone clad in jeans and t-shirt on a sunny August afternoon in Paris lacks an overcoat.