Do I really need to see these old reminders that some of our politicians are idiots? Here's a quote from Governor Mark Sanford of South* Carolina:
Well I think that it's just, and science is more and more documenting this, is that there are real "chinks" in the armor of evolution being the only way we came about. The idea of there being a, you know, a little mud hole and two mosquitoes get together and the next thing you know you have a human being... is completely at odds with, you know, one of the laws of thermodynamics which is the law of, of ... in essence, destruction.
I know, it's the South, the domain of knuckle-dragging bibliolators. So guess who said this a little more recently, in reference to Sarah Palin's pro-creationist comments?
I saw her comments on it yesterday, and I thought they were appropriate, which is, you know, let's — if there are competing theories, and they are credible, her view of it was, according to the comments in the newspaper, allow them all to be presented or allow them both to be presented so students could be exposed to both or more and have a chance to be exposed to the various theories and make up their own minds...
In the scientific community, it seems like intelligent design is dismissed — not entirely, there are a lot of scientists who would make the case that it is appropriate to be taught and appropriate to be demonstrated, but in terms of the curriculum in the schools in Minnesota, we've taken the approach that that's a local decision.
Yes, that's our very own Governor Tim Pawlenty, of the eminently Yankee state of Minnesota. Shrivels the cockles of my heart, he does.
The latest nonsense from Sanford: he is refusing to use the money in Obama's stimulus package to help the economically afflicted people of his state; instead, he offers prayers. That is the very definition of the uselessness of right-wing Republicans.
* Location clarified at the urgent request of many embarrassed North Carolinians.
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North or South Carolina?
Good old reductio ad absurdum. "They believe this (honest). Isn't that stupid? See, I'm right!"
I pity the fool and all his co-thinkers, and lament their access to the seats of power.
Gov. Sanford's attitude on prayer as opposed to the stimulus package is Biblically correct:
Matt. 6:31-34: Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day [is] the evil thereof.
More evidence that prayer doesn't work: I've been praying for months that Pawlenty gets a clue, and he still doesn't have one.
What is their inteneded point of the thermodynmaics arguement anyway?
Oh my dribbling christ. 2 mosquitoes, 1 puddle = humans? W.T.F.
That would be South Carolina.
He's our moronic Governor.
Having been born in NC I'd rather not spread him out to that state as well.
If you think he is bad, check out our Senator Jim DeMint.
grrr
Exactly, there are dumbasses everywhere.
"if there are competing theories, and they are credible"
Of course, the only way ID is competing (to them) is that a bunch of shrill voices are saying "ID is right 'cause I say so."
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I got tricked into watching 2 mosquitoes, 1 puddle once. Some things just can't be unseen.
So demonstrate it, moron.
That's what we've been asking for, any reason to take it seriously beyond the long-finished task of totally debunking that BS.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/6mb592
Do these idiots really think that, in hard times, people will reject bailouts and cling to fundamentalism, both religious and economic? I would think that path is political suicide.
Are you hungry, do you need food? Pray. Then your hands will be too busy to feed you.
Here in Illinois, our politicians, even the Republicans, don't really pander to the religious right. But they do have other flaws.
Exceuse me while my head explodes from the stupidity.
1) Straw man argument. Evolution does not say that humans evovled from mosquitoes in a mud puddle.
2) Willfully ignorant. Making the mosquitoe argument is not only wrong, but willfully inaccurate. To be that far off you have to be trying to mis-state the facts. We have a word for that, It's called a "lie".
3) Argument from ignorance: I can't imagine how this would work, so it must be wrong.
4) Ignorance of physics. The 2nd law of thermodynamics refers to a closed system. The earth is not a closed system. We have energy pouring in from the sun every second of every day. It is not a law of desctruction. It essentially says that it takes energy to build things. Without energy, things fall apart.
5) Selective use of science. Apparently, science and evolution must be constrained by his (inaccurate) view of the 2nd law, but creationism is not constrained by that same law.
Once again, as with every statement trying to explain or defend creationism, this is a textbook example of logical fallacies.
"In the scientific community, it seems like intelligent design is dismissed — not entirely, there are a lot of scientists who would make the case that it is appropriate to be taught and appropriate to be demonstrated..."
Ok... Should we pull rabbits out of hats?
I'm open to suggestions.
It's a real shame when people pick ideology over humanity.
PZ, Unfortunately, you have an incompetent moron for governor. I'm not sure how the guy's able to walk and breathe at the same time. People cannot be this stupid to actually believe this creationist bullshit. I believe he's playing his Republican hands like a true ignorant fuck, and in fact, deep down, he knows his words are just meant to placate the ignorant drones that voted for him.
Are we truly a nation of such fucking morons? Every time I hear this kind of drivel from someone who's in an actual position of power, it makes me want to grab them by the ears, sit them in an auditorium and lecture them on biology and the processes of science. If you want to be an elected official, then you must know at least a high school level of science competence.
In my state, our governor, who's done everything she can to ignore Obama and support McCain throughout the presidential elections and even after, is mulling what to do with the stimulus. We're a bit lucky in Hawaii because if she does hold on to that money, and obstinately refuse to release it, her future's in trouble and whatever elections for Senate, House, etc that she wants to run in the future would be in vain. I say use the media outlets to highlight the selfishness of these governors who refuse to inject some much needed capital selectively.
The best way to get out of this recession would be to gather all the evangelical ministers and shake them down for all their worth. If they truly believe in god so much, than they won't mind living in poverty, and using those funds to help the jobless.
And it couldn't happen to a nicer party, eh?
#5
Apparently, it's to show that they don't understand thermodynamics, since they always get it wrong. They think that the 2nd law (conservation of mass/energy) negates evolution, the earth isn't a closed system so the 2nd law doesn't apply. They all idjuts!
Naughtius Maximus: I think they mean for the thermodynamics argument to go. "Physics shows everything falls apart, but biologists say that stuff can build itself up!! Physics wins because everyone thinks of Einstein when asked to picture scientist.!!! QED bitches!!!1"
That's the argument against Evolution using thermodynamics anyway. I've also seen a creationist start with that and when challenged slip into a weird "thermodynamic argument for the existence of god". That one basically went "OK maybe the 2nd law doesn't strictly say that life couldn't occur without external help, but it DOES mean that everything (including the existence of life in the universe) is just temporary. THAT'S UNTHINKABLE!!! Therefore there must be a god, not governed by the laws of physics, making sure the universe contains creatures more-or-less like me for eternity. Checkmate athiests!!!one"
If Sanford doesn't much care for that sciency evolution stuff, then he shouldn't be expounding on how "science is more and more documenting this, is that there are real "chinks" in the armor of evolution being the only way we came about."
Either you support science, or you don't. Sanford should make a choice.
And while the mosquitoes are enjoying themselves, the mud puddle is busy contemplating how amazing and wondrous for it to fit so well into the contours of the hole in which it finds itself.
'common people - look at the good side. These ignorant yahoos are obviously not adept at opening the big umbrella to seduce voters who are not fat old white guys. In 2012, after 4 years of science and reason, their shrinking base may make an even louder noise and carry an even smaller twig (as opposed to a big stick).
That said, I agree that it would not be wise to turn one's back on these snakes so PZ, please, PLEASE continue to spew forth your evil evidence, lewd logic and reprehensible reason.
My family lives in SC. The people hate Governor Sanford. He will not be re-elected.
Thanks Vic & Matt.
The whole praying thing is ridiculous, elected officials trying to help the country = bad but blind faith to help people who are hurting = good
Isn't Jindall refusing money aswelll?
PZ - when you get the chance, PLEASE edit your entry to specify SOUTH Carolina. Please please please please please.
With great appreciation,
A North Carolina resident
Ya know, whenever life gets me down, and it seems that stupidity is winning the battle for hearts and minds, I like to peruse the Discoverish Institutes's Wedge Strategy and shed a tiny tear of laughter:
GOALS
Governing Goals
* To defeat scientific materialism and its destructive moral, cultural and political legacies.
* To replace materialistic explanations with the theistic understanding that nature and hurnan beings are created by God.
Five Year Goals
* To see intelligent design theory as an accepted alternative in the sciences and scientific research being done from the perspective of design theory.
* To see the beginning of the influence of design theory in spheres other than natural science.
* To see major new debates in education, life issues, legal and personal responsibility pushed to the front of the national agenda.
Twenty Year Goals
* To see intelligent design theory as the dominant perspective in science.
* To see design theory application in specific fields, including molecular biology, biochemistry, paleontology, physics and cosmology in the natural sciences, psychology, ethics, politics, theology and philosophy in the humanities; to see its innuence in the fine arts.
* To see design theory permeate our religious, cultural, moral and political life.
And lot more!
It illustrates, amongst many other things, the failure of a concerted attempt to put God (well, one of them) at the very centre of science.
It was kind of possible - if only they could have persuaded a few reputable (ie published and therefore useful) scientists to state publicly how useful the goddidit hypothesis was the them personally, and then...well, what?
Putting aside for one minute the obvious "Darwinian" stranglehold on the biological sciences, it would then require these scientists to continue their everyday work, but also to propose, look for, and find the holes in evolution that the religious are confident are present.
No holes found. No holes even looked for. No holes...
The only thing that does really surprise me is that they haven't found, effectively, any scientist willing to help them out.
Despite their funding and their really really hard work, they don't even have the ghost of an idea to further their research, and not one reputable scientist to back them up.
The only discernible success I can see it Design Theories continuing, and growing, influence on the fine art of humour.
Cheering, isn't it?
Hey, SCROTUM is back!
#3 Society of Christians for the Restoration of Old Testament Morality | February 24, 2009 11:38 AM
"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property." (Leviticus 25:44-45)
Please tell us about your slaves. I really want to know.
I've read so many stupid things today that my brain hurts.
Well, I guess he'll be praying for reelection next!
The mosquito thing sounds like the makings of a good joke... "Two mosquitoes walk into a mud bar..."
@ #3
Society of Christians for the Restoration of Old Testament Morality = S.C.R.O.T.M
LOLLOLLOLLOLLOL
I noticed 86% of Americans either completely reject evolution, or they think magic is one of the mechanisms of evolution. Our politicians are no more stupid than the drooling Americans who vote for them.
Notwithstanding my flippant comment @19, this business of turning down stimulus funds strikes me as insane: Taking a "principled" stand is one thing, but literally snatching money, food, and jobs out of the hands of your constituents is beyond the pale.
However, as much as I'd like to see Repub goobers swept out of office in large numbers, I can't bring myself to take the Limbaughesque position of hoping they'll fail for the sake of an electoral advantage to my party. My desire to see Bobby Jindal (for example) consigned to the dustbin of political history is not sufficient to make me hope for the financial destruction of countless Lousianians.
Ultimately, after making all sorts of hardline noises to "fire up the base," I'm guessing these anti-stimulus goobers will bow to political reality and take the money... and their constituents will be sufficiently grateful for the aid that they'll quietly forgive their Dear Leaders' hypocrisy.
Oh, well...
@ #3
Society of Christians for the Restoration of Old Testament Morality = S.C.R.O.T.M
LOLLOLLOLLOLLOL
Just had a look at the SCROTUM website, I call Poe! "Biblically Correct Fashion Tips", too obvious, try harder next time.
Someone in South Carolina, go find that guy and kick him in the shins as hard as you can. Preferably while wearing very pointy shoes.
is mulling what to do with the stimulus. We're a bit lucky in Hawaii because if she does hold on to that money,...
Alas, she can't even take a principled stand. If she could decline this boondoggle, and also decline her resident's children's need to pay for it, it would make sense. Unforntunately, the governor has no option to preven another trillion in deficit.
Are they growing stupider with time or is it just me?
"What is their inteneded point of the thermodynmaics arguement anyway?"
That the Sun is God?
Since the entropy of the universe increases more rapidly in the presence of life than otherwise, life is thermodynamically favourable and the second law is on our side :)
@Tulse (#12)
It's political suicide in their home States, but if they're trying to curry favor with the Republican base in advance of a run for the party nomination in 2112 ...
When I grew up in Minnesota I was proud of my state. It seemed exceptional to me in many ways. Now it's just the number of lakes that merits that description.
Look... what you chaps really need is a wedge strategy of your own.
Start impressing on church leaders - at the denominational level - that if they don't do something to address biblical literalism their churches - and their coffers - will empty within a generation.
Start pressuring the newspapers and media outlets to demonstrate where the supposed "controversy" over evolution is to be found outside of the lunatic fringe before they heed the call to debate its validity.
The evidence that relying on civilised discourse and factually-backed assertion is not working for you is in depressing abundance. Take your cue from Obama's people who tore into Fox with gusto: seeing Hannity called out for giving a known anti-Semite a platform was tear-jerkingly beautiful.
Myers linked to a post on Reason.com, a libertarian website. WTF?
I attended a performance of the "Great Tennessee Monkey Trial" in Charlottesville recently. Before the play, there was a lecture on Darwin and evolution by someone, a psychologist I think.
He talked a bit about the Dover trial and then had some fascinating things to say about the evolution of human cognition. He made a case for religious belief being a natural byproduct of the evolution of the human brain and the behavior traits that enabled humans to form cooperative groups. Things like altruism, he said, come not from religion, but from our own evolutionary hardwiring.
He finished with a warning that we should expect more Dover-like trials as the theists challenge evolution on this new front.
The 2nd law of thermodynamics is not about "destruction", and isn't even really about "order and disorder". It says that it is impossible to extract 100% of the energy from heat as useful work. One meaning of that can be applied to statistical distributions of matter leading to the order/disorder concept, but that is a result of the 2nd law, not its definition. As long as what you build with that "useful work" has less "potential energy" than your energy source, there is no violation.
And it just boggles my mind that these people do not see how their argument, if true, would make everything they see around them impossible. Everything we do is taking energy and organizing it. Are we violating the 2nd law?
What I don't understand is how a supposedly "progressive" state like Minnesota (we actually had a socialist for governor in the '30's) can have a Democratic party so totally incompetent and devoid of leadership that they can't defeat Pawlenty or Rep Michelle "bat-shit crazy lady" Bachmann. These useless dweebs can't shoot a fish in a barrel, or hit the broad side of a barn.
they will talk the talk and posture how the dems are going to destroy the country and all but they will take the money and spend it anyway it is "free" money after all. my guess is the reason that all the republicans voted against the money was that it was going to pass anyway without them. So it was a win/win.
Ding-Ding-Ding! We have a winner. More than 80% claiim to believe "in" a supernatural game, sport, and life-fixer which lives in "heaven," and really gives a shit about 'em. {Pathetic, moronic fuckwitz!()
talking about politicians...
do i understand correctly that bobby jindal is making his first moves for the 2012 elections? jindal/palin 2012!
i can really see the gop strategists thinking... hmmm, we need a young person, preferably from a minority. yeah, that's what the people want.
they come across as old guys trying to look young by just superficially copying what they think is the 'now' thing.
i hope obama does a good job, just so that these suckers get till at least 2016 to realize they're completely out of touch with reality.
#25- Sanford has already been re-elected. He is in his second term as governor of SC. He is running for president now and what he is blabbering plays to republicans across this country.
Vic@20,
Sorry to be nitpicky, but it's my job as a physics teacher. ;) Actually, conservation of energy is expressed in the 1st Law of Thermodynamics. There are different ways to express the 2nd Law, but the one favored by creationists is that the entropy of an isolated system not in equilibrium will increase until it reaches a maximum at equilibrium. Since entropy is often expressed as the degree of 'disorder' in a system, the creationists believe that evolution can't create more 'ordered' lifeforms without violating this Law.
Which, as you correctly pointed out, is completely ridiculous, since the Earth is not an isolated system. It gets an input of energy from the Sun. Even if it were and isolated system, parts of the system could become more ordered on its path to equilibrium as long as the total entropy of the system increased toward the maximum. So, yes, the point of using 2nd Law arguments by creationists is to show how little they actually understand science in favor of showing their ability to parrot sciency sounding things they pulled off of creationist websites or literature. (As others have pointed out.)
Inherit the Wind was one of my favorites as a student (and later, as an English teacher); thanks for cluing me in that there's another theatrical treatment of this subject.
BM @ # 45
"Myers linked to a post on Reason.com, a libertarian website. WTF?"
Hell, I link to Reason sometimes on Facebook, despite the fact I detest their "Free Market Ueber Alles" approach to questions of political economy.
On civil liberties, though, they're often bang on correct, I'll give them that. I may generally dislike the Libertarian/Objectivist/Rand crowd, but I'll give them credit where it's due for bolstering the legitimacy of atheism and freethought and taking religion down a few pegs.
Wow, that Mark Sanford is really stupid. Holy crap!
Being unwilling to tell a pollster you don't believe in a god ≠ actually organizing your life (or votes) around a god-belief.
Not that the religiosity of this country isn't a real problem, of course, but I refuse to believe that polling numbers like this represent a true core of fundy rightwing godbotherers. For one thing, for vast numbers (though obviously not all) of Catholics and mainstream old-world protestants, affirming god and going to church is mostly a received habit... a cultural and familial legacy, rather than any well examined, committed belief structure. And even among those for whom god-belief is sincere and deeply felt, a large percentage are not fundamentalists or biblical literalists, and do not deny evolution or subordinate worldy problem-solving to blind reliance on prayer.
Folks who claim any god-belief at all have pretty much got to try to integrate that belief with the biological account of "creation"; it does not follow that all these people are out picketing teachers or burning textbooks.
I have long considered Pawlenty himself to be a gap in the fossil record. (Blog-whoring alert!) Just look at him on MTP a while back.
It is at least partly because they think that a "law" must trump a "theory".
Even when the "law" doesn't actually seem to apply. I think they are missing a trick here - surely thermodynamical lawyers could be employed. Some suggestion for them:
1) Close the system that, it is claimed, is open as far as the earth/sun system is concerned.
2) Propose the employment of a group of Energy Enforcers to stop mankind's artificial ordering of the universe, thus providing an entropy deficit which would slow down the forces leading to evolution (not that it happens; and
3) To pursue legal actions in any and all cases where theories are, in practice, circumventing the laws of the universe in any way.
One could make a strong economic case for these proposals as the work entailed in all of this would be effectively limitless, according to one of the laws of thermodynamics.
If this is of use to any lawyers out there I can gladly contribute to the debate, and promise that my consultancy fees will be one of the smaller classes of infinite.
Is it too late to recall Pawlenty and get Jesse Ventura back?
Failing that, we should at least convince the DFL to give us a candidate that has a bit more personality than an old shoe.
If the anti-science crowd want to discuss "controversy" in evolutionary science, I say let's do it.
An fine text would be "The Mistaken Extinction: Dinosaur Evolution and the Origin of Birds" by Lowell Dingus & Timothy Rowe. (Sadly this is out of print at present.)
The book is an excellent example of how science works & how it handles controversies. It was written as an undergraduate paleontology textbook a little over a decade ago.
It contains two main sections. First concerns the K-T mass extinctions. Second concerns the evolutionary ancestry of birds.
My fantasy would be to have an updated version, with newly discovered material added into the text in a way to explicitly show how new discoveries are incorporated into previous science knowledge.
But I don't think this is quite what the bible-thumpers mean when they talk about teaching "scientific controversy".
I too live in South Carolina--we're not all godtards, but there sure are a lot of 'em! Just drive around Greenville and count the numbers of Jesus fish or Calvin kneeling at a damn cross bumperstickers on SUV/trucks/mommy missiles. You'll be batshit insane within the hour. Hey, RevDumbChimp, how's about you and I go down and kick Sanford in the shins?
"And it just boggles my mind that these people do not see how their argument, if true, would make everything they see around them impossible. Everything we do is taking energy and organizing it. Are we violating the 2nd law?"
But your statement here assumes that they think evolution fits or is workable. They see the 2nd Law as real science (even though they are totally misunderstanding/applying it) and evolution as the theory someone just made up/concocted because they were mad at god and wanted to explain godly existences away. What I'm saying is they see some scientific things (mostly nearly anything non-biology-related) as good and fine, but separate autonomous studies, and evolution and biology as maybe once having been based in something real, but now having been "corrupted" by "academic elites" and "socialist/communist" ideology, among other absurdities.
To me they seem to treat the science they can see as real science, and the science they cannot see or make ready associations with as vaporous, ill-defined, and possibly even subversive and mischievous. At the level of a young child their ignorance would perhaps not be non-understandable, but as adults, many of whom are acting solely on their ignorance, it becomes an entirely different animal that erodes human progress.
After hosting the Republican National Convention in St. Paul and protecting local Catholic churches from any eucharist desecrations, our governor is obviously miffed that he was passed over as McCain's VP selection. He is making up for it by kowtowing to the religious backbone of his party in order to play second fiddle to the governor of Alaska in 2012.
Pathetic.
Re. Thermodynamic Laws
Perhaps physics classes could teach why the concept of an eternal soul or god IS a violation of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics while evolution is not.
Hear the Holy Rollers scream; I mean speak in tongues.
These Rethuglican governors need to be careful. One of the reasons Obama won was he motivated and organised a lot of first time voters, of all ages, to vote. If enough of them got bitten by the 'we did it' bug, they might vote them out of office?
SteveM @ #47 said: "It says that it is impossible to extract 100% of the energy from heat as useful work."
Republicans would suggest that heat is on welfare.
As an inmate of the asylum that is South Carolina, I can add nothing to what the ever erudite Rev. BDC has written.
On civil liberties, though, they're often bang on correct, I'll give them that. I may generally dislike the Libertarian/Objectivist/Rand crowd, but I'll give them credit where it's due for bolstering the legitimacy of atheism and freethought and taking religion down a few pegs.
Rather ballsy of you to post this, here, given that the mere mention of the (other) L-word drives most pharynguloids into a frothy, irrational frenzy.
Although you're certainly correct about the obnoxious free-market-solves-everything POV of the Reason crowd, FWIW they are not Objectivists/Randians (same thing).
Extra bonus irony: Ron Bailey who wrote the article slamming Sanford, to which Myers linked, was a notorious global warming denialist for many years.
Not to stick up for an assclown, but Pawlenty's comments were from a Sept. interview. It is good to remember our state governor is no better in understanding the world around him than the hick from SC. Let's keep our indignation in perspective, these much maligned comments are almost 6 months old.
Rejecting the bailout money is the smart thing to do. Which is why, in the end, I expect Sanford, Palin, Jindal, and the rest to retreat on their stance.
Vic (#20) and others: Vic, conservation of energy is the first law. For the second law in a closed system, the observation is that entropy is never seen to decrease. This does not mean that the 2nd law only applies to closed system, rather that the 2nd law restrictions applied to open systems are different. Simply invoking a major outside energy source is not sufficient to disprove the creationists' errors. The external energy source may be used to decrease entropy but such a decrease isn't mandated.
In closed systems, local decreases in energy are common. The only requirement is that there be an offseting, larger entropy increase elsewhere in the system. Two examples: snowflake formation, and growth of a bacteria population from a single bacterium in a vat. The latter also demonstrates that information (dare I say complex, specified information?) can increase in a closed system.
Cheers, Bob
Jeez, no one has mentioned the real rank hypocrisy that these dummmassses are doing with the stimulus. If Jindal is the model, they are only refusing the money for unemployment insurance extension and want to take all the other funds for infrastructure etc.
Goes with the republican motto: Comfort the comfortable and afflict the afflicted
Woops! First line, second para should read "local decreases in entropy..."
Anybody who contends that human existence contradicts the 2nd law has never changed a diaper.
Invoking the 2nd law as an argument against evolution should be punishable by flogging for the first offense, castration (2nd offense) and general bitchslapping thereafter.
On with the definition of useless....
Your brilliant use of reason should better inform your use of useless and insulting regional stereotypes. Anti-southern propaganda is the only acceptable religion anymore. Sure, it's easy to pick on the people with "that funny accent." But, if you travel a bit, you realize that most people everywhere are complete idiots.
I'd really expect more from you.
So, if I understand Governor Sanford correctly, I should drain stagnant mud puddles, not to keep mosquitos from breeding and possibly carrying diseases like West Nile virus, but to keep humans from sprouting up in my yard. It's all so clear now. Clear as say...a mud puddle. You would think his oh so coherent ramblings would be muffled from having his head permanently shoved up his ass.
Ahh, the great conflation...
The "stimulous" package basically amounts to sending Clinton to China to beg for cash so that Americans can buy more cheap Chinese crap on their credit cards.
Trying to climb back on the same horse that threw you and broke your back may sound courageous, but it is also quite stupid.
While religion and its idiocies produced the absurdity of a GW BUSH presidency, the Democratic ebbing we see now- the desire to "fix" what is indeed broken by rewarding those who broke things- is an odd bit of shallow human pee-puddling.
What happens to America if no one buys our bonds anymore? Try stimulating your mind on that bit of possibility...
Admitting you are broke is the first sign you'll stop begging for more money to borrow.
I can't pay the 450,000 the government has promised I will pay its creditors already. Can you?
Hmmm... someone mentioned the L-word and poof!, SfO shows up. Did you also draw a pentangle on the floor?
Scott@78,
Where does your $450,000 number come from? The total national debt reported here is around $10 trillion, which works out to a little less than 40k per U.S. citizen. Still an awful lot of money, but it's an order of magnitude less than what you're talking about.
As for why those few Republican governors are refusing some Stimulus money:
Some of the stimulus money meant to help the poor will end up expanding the number of people enrolled in programs like Medicaid as well as increasing the amount and length of compensation of unemployment and other programs. What those governors are concerned about, is that they will be on the hook for the money to fund those expanded programs after the stimulus package expires in a couple of years. Their choices then would be to try and fund the increases themselves, or make politically unpopular cuts in those programs.
Being willing (even eager) to take money for infrastructure projects while refusing money for such programs is not hypocrisy. Increased funding for infrastructure will not expand their state budgets in the same (effectively) permanent way as expanding programs for the poor will.
Sorry for the minor hijack, but can I get a Pharyngulation on these two polls in my local newspapers?
http://poll.starbulletin.com/
http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/
Question: Are you in favor of civil unions for same-sex partners? (Due to a constitutional amendment, marriage is only allowed between opposite-sex partners, so this is the best we can get.)
Thanks everyone!
Hmmm... someone mentioned the L-word and poof!, SfO shows up. Did you also draw a pentangle on the floor? - Bill Dauphin
At least one can keep this particular manifestation of the power of idiocy more or less harmlessly confined using the magic of killfile! At present, he and Facilis are the only inhabitants of mine.
I apologize for my state. The only good thing Governor Sanford has ever done was to bring two pigs into the State House to protest pork spending. I may not agree with his opinion, but who doesn't love pigs???
Things like this are the reason I have recently started the Hub City Skeptics Group in my small town of Spartanburg, South Carolina. Our first meeting is on Pi Day, but I wish we had been up and running for Darwin Day. http://groups.google.com/group/hub-city-skeptics?hl=en
I always remind people THIS IS MY STATE TOO!! So many of my friends think I am rude for the Darwin fish, Scarlet A, and keep abortion legal stickers on my car, but it is my small part to balance out the afore mentioned bumper stickers. I want to piss off at least one person each day who assumes that everyone in this small town thinks like they do.
(Although, I must admit, when I drop my kid off at Montessori, it is FULL of similar stickers. Not too much of a rebel within that crowd!)
You know that's the only thing I bring up when someone asks me if I like Sanford.
"Where does your $450,000 number come from? The total national debt reported here is around $10 trillion..."
Ummm, you forgot the unfunded liabilities, and the 450,000 is a per household figure.
And the debt ceiling was just raised to 12 tillion within the "stimulous" package.
No amount of killfiling changes the ponzi nature of our national government's debt. It will end badly.
Sadly.
As usual, Jon Stewart skewered them last night on this subject by covering the issue. (paraphrased from memory)
"So the republican governors don't want to take the money on principle. Okay, here is Jindall the young whipper-snapper from Louisiana." -blather on not wanting the money- "So, of the 2.8 Billion of federal money, Jindal just wants to take a little over 2.7 Billion. Yeah."
"So the republicans are basically just going, 'Hey, I'm not for gay rights, but that guy over there is offering free &!@#-jobs. Who am I to refuse, for that would be truly elitist.'"
Pardon me, That site, Society of Christians for the Restoration of Old Testament Morality is POE. And very well done.
#30 is my Embarrassment.
South Carolina, too small for a republic, too large for an insane asylum.
On second thoughts, can we just dump all the creationists and similar idiots there?
Where do you live?
A serious suggestion to every biology professor in MN and SC: please write a respectful letter to your governor (your employer/boss in some cases), inviting him to visit you and your institution, with respect to the evolution "debate". He might accept one of your invites! If so, take him to the appropriate library, and show him the extensive shelves of books on evolutionary biology, the current journals, and the hardbound archived compilations. Estimate the number of new articles per month. Show one or more particularly interesting ones, such as the first reports of Tiktaliik (sp?). Then ask the research librarian to show him the same sections devoted to Creation Science or Intelligent Design.
If he has time to tour your labs and see what research you are doing, that's fine, but the nation-wide and world-wide scope of the library collection is essential to his education, I think.
If you are a biologist in LA or AK, my sympathies. But even in these states, there is a very slim chance that such a reaching-out might have some effect.
I attended a performance of the "Great Tennessee Monkey Trial" in Charlottesville recently.
I live 20 minutes from Dayton, we get a recreation of the Scopes trial every fall when Bryan College's freshmen come down to the "big city" for the first time to practice their insane street-preaching (I believe it's a 100-level class).
As a resident of South Carolina, I am dissapointed. Our governor knows there's such a thing as thermodynamics! That's them high-falutin words those smart people use. I didn't vote for him.
I have no illusions that it will have any impact, but I sent the following to Gov. Sanford today.
His email screen was very slow loading so I'm hoping his in-box is swamped.
Having been born and currently residing in the state of confusion a.k.a. South Carolina, I can only express my sorrow and my most heartfelt apologies to you for the idiocy expressed by my governor and various other mentally challeged public officials. And in defence of my state, I can say with certainty, that while it may take us a long time, we will pull out of the middle
ages and join the twentieth century.
Hopefully before entering the twenty-third century.
I'm still wondering what magical state that Richard Gadsden comes from.
[blockquote]
The latest nonsense from Sanford: he is refusing to use the money in Obama's stimulus package to help the economically afflicted people of his state; instead, he offers prayers. That is the very definition of the uselessness of right-wing Republicans. [/blockquote]
"There are people in the world so hungry, that God cannot appear to them except in the form of bread." -
Mohandas Gandhi
We have all been here so many times before. Google this:
Is the package even necessary, or just an attempt to extend Federal control over the states. I can see where Michigan could use the help, but other states.
Oh, if you need an example of how Michigan has fared the past few years, consider this picture from Detroit Blog. the location is a Detroit city street, where once businesses and buildings occupied all the land now laying empty.
But, keep this in mind; for Detroit -and by extension Michigan- to recover in any substantial way, Detroit needs to find ways to sustain itself. There are many factors that brought about the financial meltdown, and each must be addressed before we can make anything like a substantial recovery.
One last thing, if you think it's bad now, wait till Dubai goes under.
BREAKING NEWS!!!!
BOBBY JINDAL IS A JACKASS
His comment on Katrina may be one of the dumbest most hypocritical things I've heard recently.
This Jindal fella is so unbelievably creepy and stupid(watching the rebuttal speech),he makes me laugh.
Of course its not an easy task to come after the best US president in decades giving one of his best speeches to date,but still....
That was his first national speech starting his campaign for 2012.
It should be his last. Holy crap! That just blew. The Republican feedback thingy on MSNBC didn't even twitch the whole time. Obama was largely getting the same very positive reaction from both bodies of voters. Neither response to him ever even came close to neutral, let alone negative.
Rev. BigDumbChimp - I agree @101. I was snorting mad, and when hubby asked why I was howling at the TV and I explained - he saw it too.
But to be fair, I also howled at the Prez that he had watched the Matrix series one to many times.
Yeah Jindal totally blew it. Good, fuck him
They obviously wrote the majority of that pre The Pres' speech and weren't smart enough to make changes to it that reflected the tone of The Pres' speech.
What a tool
More than a bit embarrassing to critisize Obama for tax rises,when he just pointed out he isnt raising any for people <250000/yr and in fact lowering them.
What a tool.He looked like a deer caught in the headlights.
RevBDC:
Did he? Good. I confess, after the first SotU speech in almost a decade that I could actually listen to without wincing, I didn't have the heart to listen to Jindal's reply.
BTW, did y'all notice that practically the first words out of Pres. Obama's mouth were "laboratories and universities..."? Woohoo, eh?
Yeah it was painfully obvious that
1) He and the repubs were using this to launch Jindal into the Public as a candidate in 2012
2) that they made virtually no changes to his rebuttal to actually answer what the President said. They just pressed forward as if they didn't even hear his speech
3) that they have some serious balls to bring up the failures of Katrina
It's indeed a tough time for scientists (and well, humans) in the state of South Carolina (and I say this as one). Sanford was indeed voted in a second time - and Sanford is blowing smoke, and there's all this chatter about him running for President, and so I'm with the person who suggested that we write the SC and Minn Governors and express our HORROR over their statements...the New Thermodynamic Law of Destruction will hopefully, without much effort, become the New Thermodynamic Law of (Self) Destruction.
Sanford is an idiot.
I can see where Michigan could use the help
Well good for you, you visionary you.
Seen the budget of California lately?
More than a bit embarrassing to critisize Obama for tax rises,when he just pointed out he isnt raising any for people
You're still not getting it. What do you think the base will watch... the scary black commie talking for 52 minutes, or the 1 minute "he will raise your taxes" sound bite?
stu @ 110,
even when the sound bite seems to be delivered by Darth Vaders retarded son suffering tuberculosis?
Could someone clue me in to the meanings and background of the Law of Destruction?
I'm feeling like I'm on the cusp of becoming a wizard here but all I can find with a quick google is various bands called Law of Destruction.
Stu #110.
I thought the Republicans chose this opportunity to catapult Bobby (Kenneth, from 30 Rock) Jindal onto the national stage in order to expand the "base." The base may actually be shrinking and outsourcing talking points to the brown boy (is he a US citizen? where is his birth certificate?) was a total failure in my opinion. :-)
Actually,
I'm not sure why we don't say yea sure we can teach creationism.
Well there is an alternative theory. God did it. (For those of you who don't know God is a magical creature not constrained by the normal laws of physics, inheritance or anything else.)
Thats it. Done.
Wow. That first comment CANNOT be real. Humans aren't THAT stupid.
Oh, wait.
Jindal has a degree in biology; he should know better. Sanford was showing that he reads creationist materials and doesn't even understand what they are saying, let alone the truth. So they deserve all of the scorn I've seen here for what they say and believe about evolution. Pawlenty is obviously ignorant, but that just puts him in the same catagory as a majority of Americans regarding evolution. That statement quoted doesn't itself condemn him to the same status as Jindal and Sanford, but it would still be enough for me to not vote for him were I to live in Minnesota. Crist will lose my vote here in Florida if he doesn't veto any 'Academic Freedom' nonsense should it get through our legislature.
However, despite my efforts earlier, many here are still displaying a misunderstanding of why these Republican governors are talking about refusing some of the stimulus money. Maybe if Obama, Pelosi, and Reid would guarantee that the increased federal funding for these programs for the poor would be maintained permanently, the governors wouldn't have to explain to their constituents in a couple of years why they have to either raise taxes or cut funding to those programs at that point.
I believe that that is what Jindal was referring to when he talked about Obama raising taxes. It will become necessary to do so in the future to maintain these programs at the increased level. It's fantasy to think that they'd be able to fund that kind of money with just increased taxes on the rich.