Creationists do not like the idea of vestigial organs, no sir. That their divine creator might have slipped up and stuck in some tissue that is less than perfect is anathema to them, and so we often encounter bitter denunciations of the whole concept of vestigial organs — organs which have a modified or reduced function, and which are largely superfluous. The best example is the human appendix, which can be snipped out and thrown away with the patient no worse for the experience (other than, of course, the general consequences of surgery). You can find many examples of creationists insisting that the appendix really is a an important organ, but I was just pointed to a real doozy at Kent Hovind's site. This one had me laughing out loud before the end.
Start with the title: it is one of a series called "Things that make evolutionists look stupid". This particular article is about the appendix, and it starts out conventionally enough, for a creationist screed.
For years surgeons removed appendixes with the attitude that they had no function and were no serious loss. It is only fairly recently that it has been realized that the appendix has a number of functions, all of which are important. The appendix is an important part of our immune system. It is a germ free section of the dirtiest part of the body that helps the body produce antibodies and protects the intestinal tract from infection, It also is on the bottom of the only part of the intestinal tract where waste materials must move upward. The appendix performs an important role by creating fluids that force waste matter up this section of the intestines. Without an appendix we become more susceptible to a large number of diseases that are caused by bacteria and viruses, as well as to cancer.
Furthermore, as Ian Taylor has pointed out, many of our alleged ancestors, including monkeys and apes do not have appendixes, while rabbits, wombats and opossums do.
"Vestigial" does not mean "functionless". It means that it has become superfluous or reduced. The appendix is loaded with lymphatic and immune system components, but this is unsurprising: such tissues are scattered throughout the digestive system. The question is, why is this patch of lymphatic tissue associated with a little protrusion of the gut? The author's explanations don't work. The idea that it's producing fluids to push the gut contents upward is novel, but ridiculous — it's tiny compared to the volume of the colon, and can't produce that much fluid. If you've ever seen the small intestine, you'd also know that the ascending colon isn't the only part of the tract where contents must flow upwards. It also isn't "germ-free", which is a silly assertion—your gut contains somewhere around 1014 bacteria. It's a great sloshing tube of culture media for happy microorganisms.
As for the claim that it's vital for health, I've seen a number of studies that look for statistical correlations between appendectomies and cancers, and even some experimental studies in animals where it was removed and outcomes measured against controls…and I'm sorry, I haven't seen any suggestion that it had the effect described. The author would be better off moving to a more nebulous claim. I like the idea that it is the location of the soul, since I had mine removed when I was nine, and a few years later decided I was a godless atheist.
I don't know who Ian Taylor is, but he seems willing to make up facts. Other primates do have an appendix; chimpanzees have even been known to develop acute appendicitis. The creationists just keep making stuff up! And need I add that up until now, he's been arguing that the appendix is an essential organ, and now he is (falsely) claiming that other animals don't need it?
But wait, this isn't the funny part. That was the boring typical part. Here's where I started laughing.
I would not offend the bought and sold fascists who regulate the health industry in America by offering medical advice,
Wait for it. You just know with a lead-up like that that what he is about to do is…offer medical advice.
but I will relate alternatives to appendectomies that have worked for others without actually advising anyone to follow these procedures. Richard Schulze, the successful naturopathic doctor so hated by the FDA and AMA for being successful, has outlined the way that he has dealt with appendicitis, which I will outline here. Appendix problems are caused by poor diet and severe constipation. The first thing that he recommends is to immediately stop eating and get an enema. A high enema, or high colonic, is very much preferable. A series of regular rectal enemas may have to suffice, if the proper equipment is not available. The enema will relieve the pressure that has built up inside of the appendix. It might even be a good idea to start with a rectal enema and work your way up to a high enema.
I've noticed that quacks are often obsessed with sticking things up people's asses. I detect some sublimation going on here…
But wait, he's not done.
Fasting is recommended to be done for a few days, during which time only juice or water should be drunk and some herbal laxatives. An appendix problem is much more serious if there has been a perforation. If there has been an infection caused by a perforated appendix, antibiotic-like herbs should be taken in very heavy doses. Purple coneflower (or echinacea, echinacea purpurea, pallida and angustifolia) and garlic (Allium sativum) are recommended. A light massage of the abdomen would help at this point, but it should only be done with great care, if there is inflammation.
This guy is actually prescribing enemas and herbs for a perforated appendix?
A final procedure is to apply castor oil packs 24 hours per day over the appendix. Only fresh caster oil should be used. Rancid castor oil can be more detrimental than beneficial.
OK, enough is enough. This is too silly, and going on much too long, especially for an article in which he says he isn't going to give medical advice.
Oh, no. Here come the anecdotes.
Sandra Ellis describes treating her daughter for appendicitis in which the appendix actually did appear to have ruptured. She followed Jethro Kloss's advice and used a lobelia poultice, which was supplemented by Christopher's formula that added ginger, slippery elm and mullein. She also used comfrey tea and herbal enemas, olive oil and lobelia poultices, chamomile tea, catnip tea, alternating cold and heat packs, and reflexology. Her daughter recovered without an appendectomy, and without any infection. She provides the following formula for a poultice.
Shut up. That's enough. I don't need any recipes.
"Mix 1 tbs. of granulated or powdered lobelia with a large handful of granulated or crushed mullein leaves, and sprinkle with ginger. Add water to the herbs and mix into a paste, adding powdered slippery elm."
Some doctors advise against using any type of laxative and suggest that this may cause a dangerous irritation of the appendix. This may be good advice, but these same doctors fail to suggest releasing pressure through the other end, which would precede the laxative and relieve most of the potential for a "dangerous" irritation.
The enemas…the creationists cannot resist them.
Once you get over an appendix problem, you must learn from the experience. Your eating habits should change and you should work to ensure that you remain regular. If you eat garbage that acts as intestinal glue, you get what you ask for. Most doctors have acquired the opinion that mutilation is the only option in the case of an appendicitis, and that without them death is inevitable. We can thank the stupidity of evolutionists for this harmful misconception.
See what I mean? This crank splutters out a bunch of nonsense about appendix function and phylogeny, then dedicates most of his article to tales of curing appendicitis with enemas and herbs, and then he closes by accusing evolutionists for promoting harmful misconceptions!
It's good for a laugh, but there is one useful bit of information here. Never turn your back on a creationist.
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OK you know what? If the alternative solution to surgery when you have an appendicitis is to shove it up there and have an enema... I'll take the surgery, thanks.
Silly christian.
If it weren't for the fact that many of his followers were parents and are likely to try this solution on their children, I'd fully support the treatment of creotard-appendicitis with enemas and herbal teas. Darwin Awards for everyone.
I prefer structures like our coccyx, or platypus teeth, to the appendix, though, as examples of vestigial organs. Neither of them are likely to be totally without function, but they're clearly vestigial in any sense of the word, and one can see that by looking and actually thinking. Denial prevents thought in many cases, but it does not change the fact that evolution accounts for them, any known design processes do not.
With the appendix you too often end up arguing over what is not evident. So I'll take the more obvious and less interpreted structures any day, just like I do Archaeopteryx, a wonderful "poor design" for a bird, not because any "designer" was sloppy, rather because it quite obviously is struggling along in life as a bird when it's still substantially a terrestrial dinosaur.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/6mb592
The ridiculous advice offered by these morons would have killed me 20 years ago. I had no pain until it hit me hard. Twenty hours later my appendix was removed. The surgeon told me it was within an hour of bursting. If an infected appendix can hurt that badly, I can't imagine how bad a burst one would be.
I don't know what it is with creationists and enemas, but based on my own extended and largely creationist family, there is some connection. A lot of them swear by enemas.
Well, considering how full of shit creationists are it's no real surprise they're fond of enemas. If they weren't they'd just explode...
are parents, not were parents. unless of course some of them have already tried this
This should be followed by "Child services arrived soon after".
Oh those moral creationists are against "the drugs" but tend to carry numerous prescriptions of Darvocet, Percocet or Oxycontin. They're against buttsecks but...
i'd always though creationism was about pulling stuff OUT of one's ass, not shoving stuff in
thanks for making my day, PZ!
Whatever happened to sticking things where the sun doesn't shine being unnatural? I don't know what to say.
We're back where we started, with two incompatible epistemologies. The one finds stuff out; the other makes shit up.
By the way, a 'psychopath is a 'sick mind', so a 'naturopath' would be a 'sick nature'.
The explanation that I seem to recall reading for the appendix was that in cases of the many diseases that cause severe diarrhea and empty the colon of useful bacteria, the appendix was a reservoir which would allow those useful bacteria to recolonize the colon.
Wikipedia confirms my memory, for whatever that's worth:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermiform_appendix#Maintaining_gut_flora
I'm with Michelle--if I had to choose between surgery and an enema, then I would definitely prefer to be knocked out and sliced open. And if it's true that the appendix is the home of the soul, then I'd be rid of 2 things I don't use!
I really don't understand the creationist obsession with enemas, either. Does the bible say something about not eating fiber?
This sort of advice is usually surrounded by disclaimers about how Dr. Dino is not actually a medical doctor and consult your physician and don't say you weren't warned--just to discourage liability in case some fool, or some fool's offspring, gets hurt.
Inasmuch as Hovind didn't do so, how exposed is he if he manages to kill someone with this claptrap?
Why am I reminded of The Road to Wellville. "I was massaging my colon!"
Anyway, I feel sorry for those deluded people and their victims. Except for the ones who are phony scam artists. Problem is, it's hard to tell which one is which sometimes.
why are christians absolutely obsessed about what, where, why, how, and who to stick in each orafice of the body?
I'm picturing the "EneMat" -- a little service boutique inside each creationist church where you can go to get your lower half "cleansed."
Creationist crazy meets alt-med crazy. It's Woowoo Grand Unification!
And this is the first fundie I've ever come across who thinks that is the dirtiest part of the body...
Sorry-- if Hinton manages to kill someone with this claptrap.
Creationist pinheads and half-wits and numbskulls--
You name it; Pharyngula's got 'em.
Some people go straight to the doctor for pains:
These people go straight to the bottom.
No antibiotics! No surgery! Nothing!
The Bible says "this too shall pass"
We only want medicine Jesus approves of...
So here, stick this hose up your ass.
You know, to give our friend kent hovind an enema properly, you would have to stick it in his ear
Anyone who does this to their child should be arrested and brought up on criminal charges. I knew a boy in high school who's appendix burst. His parents took him to the hospital, but he was so ill he went into a coma for three days and nearly died! If not for the lifesaving efforts of his doctors, he would have. I know you think it's funny, PZ, and it is in a way... but the only emotion I feel is disgust.
My grandfather did die of a ruptured appendix, so this is no laughing matter to me. These people are truly offensive.
He didn't try any "alternative" treatment, however. When he went to the hospital he said he thought he might have appendicitis, and the doctors told him that was impossible, since he was 95. They spent their time looking at other things.
Well, he proved them wrong.
My nephew was born with a short "tail" that had to be surgically removed the next day - nurse said it was a fairly common occurrence. Now why, good creationists, would your God, with his "infinite wisdom" and "intelligent design", and so forth, give this innocent babe a tail that had to be surgically removed, lest he be ridiculed or shunned later in life? An answer would certainly be appreciated, though I know better than to expect one from you folks.
Best piece of advice in the whole article!
FWIW:
Ian Taylor is a creation scientist who hosts the daily podcast "Today's Creation Moment.' I have subscribed to it for a couple of years; each day brings two minutes of creation nonsense. It's amusing and keeps me abreast of what the other side is listening to. I have no idea if the podcast has an audience other than me, but it's worth checking out.
Which is fine, I suppose, except they actually expect us to take their shit seriously.
You mean, aside from being creationists?
*reads article*
Damn.
Shitfuckdamn you all to heck!
I didn't remember the name of Jethro Kloss (exposed to some stupidaceousness decades ago) and now I'm just innocently reading secularanea, and his Shitfuckdamned name comes up. Ggaagh!
There is some knowledge that is NOT worth having. What it feels like to murder someone. What it feels like to make an inappropriate pass at someone. The names of forgettable dimwits.
PZ said: "I like the idea that it (The appendix.) is the location of the soul, since I had mine removed when I was nine, and a few years later decided I was a godless atheist."
Hmmm. The soul may move about in the body, or it's location varies from person to person. I still have my appendix. My soul must've been in my tonsils...or that pesky undescended testicle.
Hi. I posted this awhile ago when I did my first one, but since the title of this post was so hard to resist, I'll throw in another little shameless plug for my project:
The Darwin Finches (just click my name link), is dedicated to yanking creationist screeds on YouTube and MST3King them. It has cartoon finches making fun of ray comfort's banana!
Ugh, guys like that should be forbidden to even talk with parents. My wife nearly died of a ruptured appendix when she was 11. If my mother-in-law would have followed that advise in stead of doing the smart thing and go to a doctor...
Oh well, I comfort myself with the idea that Hovind is receiving mini-enemas in jail on a daily basis now :)
Oh and as for another great example of a vestige: the roots of our canines are deeper than the roots of our other teeth, which is a vestige from when our forefathers still had prominent canines (like other apes still do). And then there are those blasted wisdom teeth of course. (yes, mine were all pulled with a certain level of difficulty, why do you ask?)
The enema of my enemy is my friend.
What if some idiot actually follows this advice, and dies as a result of peritonitis?
Maybe the the good folks as CSE should all have enemas..Quite clearly they are all full of shit.
I don't know about that - I hadn't had any pieces of me surgically removed at the time I became an atheist. Perhaps my soul was in my toenails one time I trimmed them.
As many skeptics have pointed out, there is a lot of overlap between pseudosciences and pseudoscientists, presumably because they all use the same sorts of fallacies, and all rely on the same types of errors, and all tend to look at life the same way. A creationist will be into alternative medicine, a 9-11 Truther will believe in NASA cover-ups of aliens, a Holocaust Denier will believe in spoon-bending -- and switch them around. Once you can buy into one global conspiracy, there's not a lot to stop you from buying into another.
I think Creationism shares a couple of assumptions also shared by Purging Fanatics. One is a deep concern that "toxins" and "sin" have corrupted and contaminated perfect bodies. You need to get them out. You need to cleanse what is animal and lower from what should be pure and higher.
The other thing they share in common is a belief that the old-fashioned common sense that grandma 'knew' by experience is far wiser and more trustworthy than anything you can learn from books and study. We used to be smarter than we now are - education has done no good. Ask grandpa - we didn't come from no monkey. Just look. Ask grandma -- all you really need is some herbs from her garden, and castor oil, and you'll be as right as rain.
In both cases, they don't want you to know this. They don't want you to cleanse yourself from what has corrupted you, and get back to the simple truths that God and Nature set out for you in the beginning.
he missed the point: why did my designer put into me such a volatile little time bomb? if the bible had some useful enema recipes, i'd get it.
Hell, I had my appendix removed for the hell of it. Kind of a two for one - buy one cholecystectomy, get a appendectomy free - kind of deal. "Hey we're going in there anyway, hows bout we cut out that useless sou... er appendix as well?" I haven't missed it since.
The post title tripped me up for a moment there. I was about to say, "'Things that make creationists look stupid' is a redundancy."
Maaaan. That's not just stupid, that's scary stupid. Just the fact that not only parents, but anybody else might be tempted to try his "cure" is more than enough reason to offer up all the ridicule he deserves.
I can't tell from the article if the author had ever tried the "cure" on himself or not - but I'm guessing not.
I'm glad that as a four year old my parents took me to a doctor rather than make me fast for days and give me enemas. That would have been an excruciating way to spend the last days of such a short life.
Ian Taylor is a metallurgist affiliated with Creation Moments. His bio is here.. I saw him a couple of times on CTS here in Canada, once on the Michael Coren show and another time on Night Lite Live.
Hovind has a point. We should encourage more use of natural herbs instead of artificial pharmaceuticals. After all, back when we only had natural herbs, people lived decades longer than they do now.
To quote that renowned expert, "Science leads you to killing people."
Oh what the hell. Let 'em do a little herd thinning. What are the chances that Hovind or Ian Taylor has chronic appendicitis?
(Every time I hear a conservative douchebag say waterboarding isn't torture, I wan't to strap them on one and put their little theory to the test)
And definitely don't bend over near one.
I was surprised that PZ let this pass:
I'm not a scientist, but I'm pretty sure that monkeys and apes are NOT our ancestors!
Does their little enema kit come with a matchbox for burial?
When I saw the title of the blog post, I immediately got a mental image of Johnny Carson holding an envelope to his head and saying "Reality."
sorry, but no discussion of enemas should be without background music from Killer Pussy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BJWAMd2IbI
these same doctors fail to suggest releasing pressure through the other end, which would precede the laxative and relieve most of the potential for a "dangerous" irritation.
He's a bit coy with the wording, but here Hovind seems to be praising the medicinal power of regurgitation. Bulemics for Christ!
21: to give our friend kent hovind an enema properly, you would have to stick it in his ear
And to steal a line from Hitchens, what was left afterwards would fit in a matchbox.
Seriously though, this was just unbelievable. Too ridiculous to be true. This has to be a joke right? I mean, his conclusion that evolutionists are spewing misconceptions about appendicitis, when this is so clearly what he's doing, has got to reveal him as a big fat giant poe, right?
C'mon Matt, they can only be 80 percent full of shit since flesh, organs, bone and gristle constitute the remainder; a boot box would handle it.
I mean, his conclusion that evolutionists are spewing misconceptions about appendicitis, when this is so clearly what he's doing, has got to reveal him as a big fat giant poe, right?
sadly, no.
Projection:
creationists are full of it.
"Sandra Ellis describes treating her daughter for appendicitis in which the appendix actually did appear to have ruptured."
Appear to have ruptured? Not only is it anecdotal, but they evidently didn't even have a solid diagnosis in the first place.
We all know parents never exagerate!
I seriously doubt that the parents diagnosed a ruptured appendix and they decided to rub some oil on their child.
A more likely explanation was the kid had a little gas and a tummy ache.
How long would someone have vs. the time it takes for your skin to absorb a magik potion?
"Richard Schulze, the successful naturopathic doctor so hated by the FDA and AMA for being successful..."
It seems he's so successful and hated that even Wikipedia denies him an entry!
Are there some things that don't make creationists look stupid?
hey, you can always laugh at his "handbook", and the suckers who buy his shit:
http://www.curezone.com/schulze/default.asp
It's small wonder the AMA hates this guy. I wonder how many bodies can be lain on his doorstep?
...especially note such wonderful entries as:
"Why Most Herbal Formulas Don't Work"
which, upon reading could be translated as:
"they don't work because they ain't MINE!"
classic snake oil man.
Creationists. Creationists are what make creationists look stupid.
Jethro Kloss can suck my dick. Kloss's bainful influence on Lobelianism is now a matter of record.
While I understand the need to give all available information on the appendix, its care and theology, I feel it is unwise to spread this particular lie.
I trust there will be further mention of this vile heresy on this Blog, or I may feel the need to go all gastro-intestinal on yo ass.
Surely the truly godly would not dare interfere with God's Plan (tm)?
The only true treatment is:
1) Lots of prayers
2) A rapid funeral
3) A sorrowful wake discussing God's will being done, over cups of tea (I knew herbs would come into it at some point)
Let's not forget male nipples in our discussion of vestigial organs and structures, now, please! But I do have one question first.
"A final procedure is to apply castor oil packs 24 hours per day over the appendix."
ummm...how is the oil supposed to even reach your appendix? The skin is a barrier, and so is the peritoneum. Plus layers of muscle and tissue in between. As usual, no plausible mechanism for how this quackery could actually work.
I can imagine, though, the pressure from a "high colonic" actually CAUSING an already-inflamed appendix to rupture...
Hmmmm, you may just be on to something there.
Kent Hovind: Public Enema Number One.
Not only is the advice silly, but it can be dangerous. Someone following his advice could die.
It's a shame that the anti-science crowd are giving such bad advice. I've seen it before.
At http://www.raptureready.com/faq/faq54.html, the writer tells his readers to seek the advice of a christian counselor in the case of suicidal thoughts. He says, "Find a good Christian counselor who can determine whether you may have a medical issue that is causing depression."
How many youth pastors do you know who are qualified to diagnose a medical condition?
And, since quackery travels in flocks, likely some sublaxation as well.
MPG @ #35: Could've indeed been the toenails. Who are we to contemplate The Ultimate Artificer's inscrutable plan for where the soul is to be housed.
Sastra said, and I agree: "I think Creationism shares a couple of assumptions also shared by Purging Fanatics. One is a deep concern that "toxins" and "sin" have corrupted and contaminated perfect bodies. You need to get them out. You need to cleanse what is animal and lower from what should be pure and higher."
The flip side to that seems to be that our bodies are not perfect. It's the little, luminous spirit inside which is perfect. The body is a filthy meat vessel who's various functions are shameful and deplorable. And that we should pray, eat only certain food, self-flagellate, and a host of other silly things to protect the pure, clean soul.
Which reminds me. I saw this in one of those "junk mail" catalogs. http://www.baronbob.com/butttowel.htm
For those who don't feel like following a link, it's a bath towel, half white, half brown, embroidered with the words "FACE" and "BUTT". I guess so one doesn't have to worry about drying the face with part of the towel that's touched the butt. I'd think, and maybe it's just me, that after a thorough soaping/scrubbing it wouldn't matter. Yeah, it's probably me.
Are there some things that don't make creationists look stupid?
silence?
There is a better example of vestigial organ: the frontal cortex of creationists. It may even went totally functionless
Some of you guys are pretty funny.
Owlmirror (@ way up there...11? 15?), that's the most recent plausible suggestion to be offered. Note that it directly contradicts the idiot's "germ-free" bullshit.
And thanks, Nurse Ingrid (intriguing nym, though you could really be anybody, of course) for pointing out the total lack of consideration for any physiological mechanism in a lot of this woo. I mean, treating appendicitis with an herbal poultice? Gah!!!
Has anyone told Ben Goldacre about this?????
Surely, on rapture ready, suicidal thoughts are a good thing?
I certainly feel that they should not be dismissed out of hand. It often seems to me that christianists steer clear of suicide because they feel we would look on down on them; but I think they should have the absolute right to their own pre-emptive rapture. Heavens, I think even if I might consider convernting if all the fundies en masse saved god a little bother,
However, prayer and poultice medicine will carry this out without any help for me. It is cheap, and it is virtuous.
Perhaps for this reason we should not criticize the medical advice on AiG.
It often seems to me that christianists steer clear of suicide because they feel we would look on down on them
I thought it was because most of the xian sects think suicide is a one way ticket the land of warmth and pointy sticks?
Hopefully, Hovind has some 'friends' in prison who are giving him enemas (or something like it) on a regular basis.
He left out blood letting. . . . As for enemas, they were the 'cure' all back in the forties and fifties. i remember seeing bathrooms with enema bags, prominently displayed, on wall hooks. Ah the good old days. NOT!
There have been christian suicide sects - Jim Jones? I feel they've had too hard a press.
I mean, if I were you guys, I'd follow the bit in the bible where it says it can be good for christians to do themselves in if they godless are becoming too many and too loud. You know, that bit.
But then, most christians don't know their bibles, do they?
Oh, and I think the nice ones should be spared. I like them.
On this up trip I saw a little towhead (infant island) half a mile long,
which had been formed during the past nineteen years. Since there was so
much time to spare that nineteen years of it could be devoted to the
construction of a mere towhead, where was the use, originally, in
rushing this whole globe through in six days? It is likely that if more
time had been taken, in the first place, the world would have been made
right, and this ceaseless improving and repairing would not be necessary
now. But if you hurry a world or a house, you are nearly sure to find
out by and by that you have left out a towhead, or a broom-closet, or
some other little convenience, here and there, which has got to be
supplied, no matter how much expense and vexation it may cost.
Mark Twain
Life on the Mississippi
While Creationists brains are clearly vestigial, their anal orifices are highly functional.
Can I stop cringing now?
A high enema to cure a perforated appendix.
"Ow!" doesn't quite cover it.
does this mean that all creationists are against the mutilation of baby boys by having their foreskins removed?
for most of America, that's a vestigial feature. sadly :(
The fascination with enemas...they must be huge Mel Brooks fans.
Did anyone read the testimonies on that site? This has to be a parody.
"I am a biology student at Central Washington University and am regularly persecuted for denying ... evolution. I am, however, worried that your focus is too narrow. For example, in high school I was taught that civilization started in Iraq 10,000 years ago. Obviously this is not possible. The world is not even that old for starters. Historians attack our beliefs every bit as often and vehemently as scientists...Every field of academia has been infiltrated and fouled by athiests and followers of satan. Language, literature, science, history, philosophy, and nearly every other department on every college campus in America is attacking our Lord on a daily basis. I thank you again for sticking up for my beliefs and look forward to seeing you in Salem. "
Irrelevant to the context about creationism, but I see some support in Wikipedia (not proof, I know) that the appendix does some good:
William Parker, Randy Bollinger, and colleagues at Duke University proposed that the appendix serves as a haven for useful bacteria when illness flushes those bacteria from the rest of the intestines.[9][10] This proposal is based on a new understanding of how the immune system supports the growth of beneficial intestinal bacteria,[11][12] in combination with many well-known features of the appendix, including its architecture and its association with copious amounts of immune tissue. Such a function is expected to be useful in a culture lacking modern sanitation and healthcare practice, where diarrhea may be prevalent.[10] Current epidemiological data[13] show that diarrhea is one of the leading causes of death in developing countries, indicating that a role of the appendix as an aid in recovering beneficial bacteria following diarrhea may be extremely important in the absence of modern health and sanitation practices.[10]
So maybe the appendix is no big deal in our modern advanced society, but is handy to have around in say the Congo. IOW, it's importance is contextual and "we" don't need it anymore depending on where we live.
Also, how about adenoids and tonsils? No good from them? I have also heard, that removal of gall bladder is no big deal, but makes the "BMs" turn out weird. (Heh, since when has anyone seen the use of "BM" ..?)
Are you a parody Facilis?
Facilis,
We wish.
Nope, the site is for real, though some entries are probably Poes. They fit in amongst the lunacy.
Careful about engaging your critical faculties, it's akin to eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge... and we know where that leads!
I've had my fair share of laughs at Hovind's expense. But when I think of what they are trying to do to the education system I feel sick. But promoting dangerous shit like this in the name of faith absolutely sickens me. I can think of no moment of my life when I was more horrified than when 'dr' Hovind told people that god gave us laetrile to cure and prevent cancer. Giving people false hope is bad enough...but giving them cyanide poisoning in the process is unforgivable.
facilis, #84
It's entirely possible the whole site is a parody. But the existence of people who actually believe that rubbish have convinced us otherwise.
Neil B:
PZ,
Your point?
Let them go ahead and apply herbal poultices and catnip tea for life threatening issues... We can let natural selection cure us of creationism then.
"Things that make creationists look stupid"
Mirrors?
Zing!
With "friends" like these creationists, who needs enemas? (Sorry, but *somebody* had to say it.)
"Things" make creaionists look stupid.
I will now sleep better at night knowing that the reason I got cancer when I was 30 was because some doctor saved my life by taking out my rotten appendix when I was 17. The bastard.
I bet he was an evil atheist (TM) to boot.
Twin-Skies @#83
"Oh No! Not another enema!"
"Yes, again and again, until you come to your senses."
But, seriously. This kind of advice is potentially fatal. The consequences of bowel perforation and spillage of fecal contents and a ridiculous amount of bacteria (Bacteroides spp., Enterobacteriaceae, etc) into a normally sterile body cavity are != hugs and puppies. As a hospital pharmacist with a particular interest in dealing with infectious diseases I...I....*facedesk*
Facilis, testimonies are the worst evidence there is. Don't try to bring them here. Physical evidence, like bones and radioactive dating, will be needed.
“many of our alleged ancestors, including monkeys and apes do not have appendixes”
Not so, according to Jerry Coyne in “Why Evolution is True”. The appendix is an excellent evidence for evolution, not against it.
“In herbivorous animals like Koalas, Rabbits, and kangaroos, the caecum and its appendix tip are much larger than ours. This is also true of leaf-eating primates like lemures, lorises, and spider monkeys. The enlarged pouch serves as a fermenting vessel(like the ‘extra stomachs’ of cows), containing bacteria that help the animal break down cellulose into usable sugars. In primates whose diet includes fewer leaves, like orangutans and macaques, the caecum and appendix are reduced. In humans, who don’t eat leaves and can’t digest cellulose, the appendix is nearly gone…In other words, our appendix is simply the remnant of an organ that was critically important to our leaf-eating ancestors, but of no real value to us.”
For what it's worth, I had a lower CT last year, which is like the ultimate enema.
It kinda changed my life and my intestinal habits.
I haven't gotten around to repeating the venture, but I'm certainly not opposed to it... not as a cure for appendicitis, but to generally restart the system... you know, what the appendix is there for in the first place.
My bet is that, either the people in question didn't have appendicitis--but gas or indigestion or Celiac or something--or maybe there are more levels of appendicular distress than acute, rupture-prone appendicitis. Either way, fundies are stupid.
This site has to be a parody, read this article:
http://www.drdino.com/readTestimony.php?id=43
"Armed with my textbook, my Bible and my CSE Seminar Notebook, I walked into my earth science classroom, where I knew tonight we would once again discuss evolutionary ideas as if they were facts. I was a freshman at Okaloosa-Walton College, and my professor, Dr. Steven Vaos, a friendly older gentleman from Greece, had been teaching us how plate tectonics, Pangaea, the fossil record, and radiometric dating, etc. proved the earth to be millions and millions of years old. I had been a diligent student who always did my homework well and contributed respectfully to class discussion and projects, and now, though I didn’t even know it, God was going to use my in-class questions to change the entire course of the semester. "
The story end when the professor renounces his belief in modern geology and biology and the classroom agrees and he turns from his sinful ways and embraces God. This site can't be real.
On occasion I've picked up Dr. Schulze's Super Food, not because I believe in detox stuff but because I need a vit. boost from time to time. Now that he's been featured on a Hovind site, I feel so.... icky.
Facilis, if it isn't real (and it isn't), why post it. You are looking to plonked with such idiocy.
Facilis,
That sounds like a text version of a fairly well-known Jack Chick tract. Well, not so well-known by me; I can't remember what it's called. I imagine someone here will know.
Sastra:
And if you throw in some “compelling” evidence that the purveyor of such wisdom is enlightened and receiving information straight from the source of “All that is” then it’s even more appealing. It's really getting back to nature.
This sounds a lot like Edgar Cayce, “The sleeping prophet,” who supposedly received information from the astral plane or whatever (turns out he was actually quite well read. Who woulda thunk?) He was big on castor oil packs and herbs and enemas and old-fashioned home remedies.
Cayce also gave sound, common sense advice (eat your vegetables and whole grains), along with home remedies that sometimes work, as well as frequently encouraging good ol' positive thinking, and for those whose critical thinking skills are dormant and who buy into the whole New Age, supernatural, “We are spirit” hoojoo, it’s easy to get caught up in this stuff, especially if it’s given a low-gloss shine of “natural,” and a handful of conspiracy theory is thrown in (cures they don’t want you to know about). It’s not just creationists who eat this stuff up.
However, if an enema were an alternative to surgery and a hospital stay? Holy Hades, stick that nozzle up my ass! What is the matter with some of you guys?!
Facilis, Look up Poe's Law on Rationalwiki: http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Poe%27s_Law
No, no, it wouldn't, and I am speaking professionally as a licensed massage practitioner on this point. Not that I think any of the regulars here are at all unclear on the point, but this recommendation is active malpractice, and needs to be directly and forcefully countered for any readers who may not have that knowledge.
Done right, massage is safe and effective. This recommendation is NOT for massage done right.
While you are recovering from the major surgery you need at this point, you might consider getting light massages *then*, although you'll probably want to stay away from abdominal massage for the initial post-surgical period.
But if anyone ever tells you massage can cure *any* acute infection, especially anything as serious as a perforated appendix, run away from them as fast as you can. That is dangerously bad advice.
@skyotter
i'd always though creationism was about pulling stuff OUT of one's ass, not shoving stuff in
skyotter, meet Ted Haggard. Ted Haggard, meet skyotter.
heyo tharlactos.
shoot me an email and let's catch up!
Robert Madewell, #67:
Well, be fair. How many doctors are qualified to diagnose demonic possession?
Facilis, #100: Certainly I doubt that story is true, but the site is not a parody. If "Dr. Dino" is a poe, he's made it his life's work.
Dude.
I would have thought that presuppositionalist apologetics were a parody if I hadn't seen the Wiki article on the subject.
And for that matter, you yourself using the damn things over and over and over for fucking weeks.
Sheesh.
How many doctors are qualified to diagnose demonic possession?
who exactly IS qualified to diagnose fictional conditions?
Marcus Welby?
hey back atcha, ichthyic--check your mail :)
Maybe they just want other people to know what it feels like to have one's head up one's ass.
Re the guy quoted by facilis:
Reality has a liberal bias.
Facilis: "This site can't be real."
The registrant of the domain name is listed as Creation Science Evangelism, administrative and technical contact Eric Hovind. Either the site is real, or somebody registered it with false contact information. The latter would be in violation of ICANN regulations and grounds for cancellation if the real Eric Hovind were to complain. Since the name has been registered since 1997, I'm thinking that's probably not the case.
Of course Dr Dino is real. Kent Hovind is currently in jail for not rendering his taxes to mamon.
I suspect he is recieving treatment there for acute appendicitis.
Why are fundies obsessed with enemas and 'moral rectitude'?
Why do racists refuse to eat brown bread?
The class and race connotations of whitebread are documented but I'm phone browsing so no link.
When I was in college (long ago!), I had an English professor who had been a Christian "Scientist". When he came down with appendicitis, his family insisted on praying rather than going to a doctor. Eventually the appendix burst, and he just managed to call for help before passing out. He survived - the doctor removed his appendix and his religion that day! (His parents, of course, never forgave him...)
Facilis
I ask again.
Facilis, are you a parody?
Why haven't you gone back and answered the questions posed to you here
Has everyone seen the main page of Wikipedia?
Why are fundies obsessed with enemas and 'moral rectitude'?
maybe they thought it said "moral rectumtude"?
or it could be aliens...
"Ok, that does it! Now listen! Why is it that everything today has involved things either going in or coming out of my ass?"
-Eric Cartman
Hmmm. The soul may move about in the body, or it's location varies from person to person. I still have my appendix. My soul must've been in my tonsils...or that pesky undescended testicle
I have my tonsils, my appendix and my foreskin. But no soul. go figure.
Well, many in this group also get abducted by aliens, and you know where their fantasies, I mean recollections, go. Perhaps they are just born with a magnet for stupidity in their ass.
"Most doctors have acquired the opinion that mutilation is the only option in the case of an appendicitis, and that without them death is inevitable. We can thank the stupidity of evolutionists for this harmful misconception."
So the Theory of Evolution has influenced medicine. Quick. Contact Egnor and tell him!!!!
Since Appendectomies are an idea based on the Theory of Evolution, can we assume that Egnor is also agains the idea of removing the appendix no matter what?
The appendix?
I reckon it's what creationistas use to think about evolution with.
Wow that's good nonsense.
I actually had an appendectomy just after Christmas. When I got the post-op report a month later, it turns out they found a completely unrelated carcinoid tumor on it. In twenty or thirty years the tumor probably would have spread and I'd very likely be dead.
I now say a daily prayer to Appendicitis, savior of my life.
May your appendicies grown infected and burst with glory.
Wowee...let me go through my checklist.
Young-Earth Creationism? check.
Rabid antigovernment conspiracy theories? check.
Unnecessary enemas? check.
Inert Herbal Remedies? check.
"Detoxifying" fasts? check.
Reflexology? check.
It's like a fucking woo-tornado. A woonado, if you will.
I can vouch for how painful a ruptured appendix is...and I wish buttheads trying to rub oil on an abdomen when a person is sick would just run the oil bottles up their own patoots instead. Damn, that dude is terminally stupid.
Stygian Lamprey wrote:
Awesome. I think from now on whenever a particular enthusiastic theist comes in here spouting gale-force drivel we can describe it as a woonado.
Why are fundies obsessed with enemas and 'moral rectitude'?
What do you really expect from fundamentalists anyhow?
"woonado"
as the kiddies say
that is made of win
So in summary:
Western medicine BAD!
Voodoo GOOD!
Ian Taylor: Canada's contribution to Creation Science. We are so proud.
Re appendix as seat of the soul: funny PZ should mention that. I had mine out in 1996, and ditched the last shreds of religious belief by 2001. Just another data point.
As for the testimonials: how many of those "cured" patients had their "appendicitis" diagnosed by a real doctor? Bet it was actually just common or garden gastroenteritis, possibly mild food poisoning, ie. usually self-limiting, and a clear-fluid fast is probably as good a therapy as anything else.
@Cuttlefish #20 - awesome
They really believe that doctors are opposed to *safe* alternatives to surgery... why is it then that we keep trying to minimize the invasiveness of surgeries as well as minimize the need for them through screenings and whatnot?
Dying because your gut filled with feces and large quantities of previously-symbiotic bacteria = not cool
Having someone give you enemas and massage your inflamed gut in the process = ...
One in, all in seems to be the motto of this. If you can dismiss the scientific evidence surrounding biology, why not do the same for medicine in general? After all, medicine is only a theory.
From memory, Ian Taylor is a Brit who emigrated to Canada. He is a creationist who works in the media. He wrote a book called In the Minds of Men around 20-30 years ago.
Before retirement I was a high school teacher of chemistry and geology and used to invite creationist speakers to address the year 12 students. One year they didn't turn up. Shortly after the scheduled appointment, I contacted them to find out what the problem was. The would-be speaker, a Dr Carl Wieland, had apparently forgotten to get his backside into gear. The embarrased staff sent me two books, one a piece of rubbish co-written by Gary Parker and another whose name I forget, while the second, a larger and altogether much more impressive work, was In the Minds of Men. Much of the book consists of a dispassionate and amazingly (for a creationist) objective account of the science history leading up to Darwin.
The book eventually runs off the rails of course. The author pines for the time when it was thought the sun was powered by gravitational contraction. It fits his preferred kindergarten book view of the world much better than the Bethe fusion theory.
I had some interesting times with the creationists. They stopped coming when one of their speakers, Dr Tas Walker (http://biblicalgeology.net/) had a go at my atheism in front of the class. I had told him of my beliefs in what I thought were private e-mails. I considered the gloves were off and I broke my normal silence. The students were transfixed by the sight of two adults in total disagreement. I am smug enough to think I got the better of Dr Walker on that occasion. A subsequent request for a speaker was ignored.
Exactly. A truly faithful Christian would turn to the bible for medical advice; it says to a) anoint person with oil, and b) pray.
Anyone doing anything else isn't putting their trust in their god - basically, they're admitting they don't believe he can help them. So, say what you like about Christian Scientists, but at least they're consistent.
Facilis @#100:
Yeah, it certainly looks like a parody site except that it has a donations button. Though if it's a parody that's collecting money from the faithful, it's a great idea!
As a medical student after reading all of it, i had to laugh, then i showed it to the rest of the dorm.... and we made a laugh party! XD priceless!!!! btw Harrison's Principles of Internal Medicine will say what happens to a person who does not get surgical treatment for ruptured apendix in less than 8-12 hours = death! hehe can i get money if i put all those wackos to court for killing people? hehe
Just to correct a misquoted Hitchens line I've seen here, I believe he said "shoebox" and not "matchbox." With regard to Hovind, wow. That's all I can say. He's batshit.
I find the idea of recomending poultices for Appendicitis to be revolting and damn near criminal. Wont be long before Eric Hovind joins the rest of his jail-bird family,
If your medical care practitioner says he's proscribing you an enema and a poultice he learned about from some guy named Jethro, you really, really need affordable medical insurance.
I smell a potential negligence lawsuit in the making...
"Well judge, my brother followed the instructions on Mr. Hovind's website and died from appendicitis. And a perforated colon..."
Yep, I'd also would be dead if my parents suffered from this type of insanity. My appendix were primed to pop within a few hours of me waking in agony as a child. I think it was only about 4 hrs after I woke screaming until I entered surgery. I do remember time off school, much of it in bed reading books on science and geography as well as science fiction. I suppose with that type of content supplied by my parents I was never in any danger of falling victim to such dangerous quackery.
Things that make creationists look stupid
Talking.
Writing.
Attempting to look smart.
Ya know, whenever I need medical advice, the first place I turn to is the Bible. It contains all the diagnostic and therapeutic information anyone ever needs, and the great thing is you can find one in every fleabag motel room in the country!
I wonder if Mr. Hovind suffers headaches from time to time? If he does he should consider trepanation, but for goodness sake let him do it in an area that can be hosed down as the excreta build up is obviously under extreme pressure.
Biologists all agree that “evolution cannot predict future change; it is a process only responsive to the here and now."
The reply relies on popular appeal. In earlier centuries all people agreed that the earth was flat and that the sun circled the earth. No matter how many people agree or disagree such agreement or disagreement does not refute or prove an assertion.
"There is no goal, no striving for some metaphysical perfection.” (Steven Rose, but I can quote many biologists).
Rose is talking here about evolution as a process and not about life as a process and yet again: to deny a claim (to assert that something is not the case as you do with this quote) is not providing evidence or counter evidence. yet again my p-brain fails to grasp how the use of that quote supports your disbelief in the assertion that life is a goal directed system.
1. the origin of species is the result of the fact that slight variations in the genome will have slightly different outcomes in the progeny of those organisms fit enough to procreate. (this is Darwin’s description and he uses pointers as his example animals, and man’s ability to control the breeding and thus the future characteristics of the breed.
2. the survival of these variations are a product of the survival fitness they bestow on a particular organism - not all variations are selected nor do all those selected survive into future generations. These selections are said to be made natural[ly]. I understand the term natural[ly] to mean: if the variations fit into the chemical equation(the organism’s existing genome) and contributes to the functional efficiency of the organism in its internal and external environment, then the variation will survive….passed on to future generations. The variation adds to the overall internal fitness of the organism in a particular environment at a particular point in time.
My p-brain understands this to mean that not all variations are naturally “selected” (there is nothing to do the selection except the nature of the existing genome which will have an additional protein as output that in turn have to provide an advantage to the organism ito its structural integrity of or its ability to respond to its external environment.
From this my p-brain draws a number of conclusions:
a. the selection process is not blind (the variations that result from randomly mixing chemicals may be): rather there is a standard that must be met in order for a particular selection to survive namely: variation must make a positive contribution to the fitness of the organism in a dynamic environment.
b. Since the standard of selection is a contribution to the overall fitness of the organism the types of variations that will be selected is determined by the existing organisational structure and the dynamics of the environment in which these must of necessity function (effectively).
c.Since the overall efficiency (fitness) of the organism is achieved by meeting these standards via natural selection those elements that contribute to a greater extent than any other to the fitness of an organism in a specific dynamic environment will be *preferentially* selected rather than a variation that minimally contributes to he fitness of the organism…or only partially meets the standards of fitness of the organism in a particular dynamic environment.
I would appreciate it if you can comment on these aspects of my interpretation prior to me elaborating on my understanding of the evolutionary process inorder that i may make corrections if such are required by any new insights or perspectives that you may contribute.
If we're lucky, every creationist will read this quack's article and take his advice. Then over a few hundred years we should expect the average IQ to go up a few dozen points via natural selection as the creationists die of sepsis (since appendicitis is primarily a childhood disease).
And, well, enemas have uses... But please don't put enough pressure in your colon to clean out a swollen shut appendix.
Browsing around that stupid website I came across the online shop where they sell shit. Please read the description of the trilobite replica. How many children are being 'educated' with this garbage?
"Phacops Trilobite Replica [ 5.25in. ]
Trilobites of all kinds once roamed the ocean floor, but not many are alive anymore, at least not that we know of. Trilobites had segmented bodies like a shrimp or lobster, and the ability to curl up into a ball when frightened. Some are found curled but most are found flat. This shows us that they were buried in mud slides too quickly to even curl up! Noah’s flood is the best explanation for the death of billions of these amazing creatures. Evolutionists believe trilobites lived “millions of years ago� but they cannot explain how they got their incredible compound eyes with thousand of lenses in one eye. The evolutionary theory is silly. God created the world in six days about 6,000 years ago. See our video series for much more on this. "
Enema is the anima of creationism.
Makes you wonder what creationists think of male nipples (which are a functionless organ). I'm a bit afraid to think what they might pull out of their butts on that one!
Enema is the anima of creationism.
clever.
Is Hovind trying to horn in on Kevin Trudeau's territory? Better not put Kev in the cell next to Kent, or Trudy's gonna have to shank da bitch.
As ridiculous as that is to us, some ignorant bastard is going to follow that advice and someone's going to die. Another tickmark measuring the tragedy brought about by choosing faith over reason.
Biologists all agree that "evolution cannot predict future change; it is a process only responsive to the here and now."
one, I'm curious where you quotemined this from and two, we make predictions about phenotypes within populations quite often.
If selective pressures are strong, easily observable, and easily manipulated, it's quite easy to set up predictions about specific traits, and even how quickly they will propagate within a given population.
this makes the rest of your post null and void.
done.
an idiot once told me that he thought they were scars from where god extracted the extra rib to make Eve. Didn't explain why there's two or them, though.
Wasn't Lenski's experiment with e-coli making predictions about the power of evolution? He set up an environment in which replicating faster would be a survival advantage and got results for that.
Natural selection has been shown to work time and time again, what's the problem that people have with evolution being unfalsifiable, or even untestable in the lab? It's like they know nothing of what actually goes on with the science of biology.
That ranks amongst the all-time stupidest rationalisations by a religidiot I have ever heard.
I wonder how those people with multiple nipples figure into all that.
@128
Absolutely with the 'massaging the stomach' bit. A ruptured appendix will likely lead to a degree of peritonitis. Touch someone's abdomen with that and you get what we in the old-school British hospitals were taught to call 'chandelier positive' - meaning that's from where you'd have to peel them down from afterwards. Its that painful.
But a light rub with oil to your screaming child in such a condition will hasten its ascent into heavin and thus spare you much more of their noisy, demon-harboring, of-this-earthly-realm aggravations.
PS
Anyone brings a dependent into my A&E (thats British ER guyz) in said condition with said backstory, I will call the cops.
They take the fun out of everything! I will not be able to enjoy a recreational enema again.
Not funny at all.
People who, in their naivety, believe that fool are going to die from that. I feel sorry for them. Aren’t there laws supposed to protect the simple-minded?
Ding ding ding! Would the gentleman like the Kewpie Doll or the Teddy Bear?
Err. Umm. Uh. Erm. Ahem. I never thought I'd see those two words together, but hey... if it floats your boat, I hope you're able to disassociate it from that criminal quackery and enjoy it again soon. Bottoms up!
OT (I could've posted it on the poll thread since it's about religion and discrimination).
An interesting book just came out. Unfortunately for most of you, it's in French : Et si Dieu n'aimait pas les Noirs ? (What if God didn't like Blacks ?) by Serge Bilé and Audifac Ignace.
My somewhat approximate translation of the description :
"In January, 1944, while the Allies walked towards Rome to free it from the Nazis, Pope Pie XII curiously ordered that no black soldier, whether from Africa, America or Antilles, guard the Vatican (or be near it).
In August, 1988, the private secretary of pope Jean-Paul II, the Zairian bishop Emery Kabongo, is savagely assaulted by strangers (officially) at Castel Gandolfo, the pope's private summer house which is, of course, really well protected.
Nowadays, African priests posted in Vatican or only there for a while say they are discriminated against. Many of them have been banished because they prolonged their stay longer then the limit authorized. They are now homeless, must beg to survive and are considered illegal immigrants (or undocumented workers).
As for the African nuns who come to the Roman congregations at their demand to solve the "vocation crisis", they constitute a ruthlessly exploited workforce. Helpless and bewildered, many of them end up prostituting themselves!
This book, the result of a meticulous investigation, reveals the dark secrets and contradictions that inhabit this institution which still struggles getting rid of its prejudices against Black people who were once considered by the church to be made in the image of the Devil rather than God!"
What, no nunchucks?
Creationists like enemas because they're full of shit. It is a pity that all that crap being flushed out of their backsides doesn't stem the flow coming from their mouths.
hmm - how about "The appendix: missing link between body and soul"? Perhaps Proteomics would be interested...
CrypticLife | February 11, 2009 6:35 PM:
I have to agree. I mean, it's funny that someone believes something so preposterous, and even funnier that he has essentially backed himself into believing it in order to maintain his other silly beliefs, but he will reach someone. Someone vulnerable. And that person won't simply join the ranks of the irrational. That person will die.
I'm sure the good people of Pharyngula have heard of the Breatharians. You know, the ones who claim to survive on a diet of air, having forsworn all food and water? Absurd. And funny in the abstract. I'm laughing just typing. (Seriously.) But converts to Breatharianism have actually died, because they genuinely bought what the deluded and/or lying founders of the "diet" were selling.
It's funny that some quacks claim to be able to cure cancer by shining different colored lights on a patient's skin. Not so funny that they blame a patient's deteriorating condition on improper home application of the lights.
I did have a good laugh at the post. I do see the humor. I truly do. But the irrational can also be quite deadly.
Nurse Ingrid waaay back at #63- "Let's not forget male nipples in our discussion of vestigial organs and structures, now, please!"
They may be vestigial, but I can attest that there are a variety of delightful functions they can be put to.
Oh my, yes.
As for the "things" creationists believe....How 'bout this doozy, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAArwzqshpw from a recent YouTube reconnoiter. Reptilian alien hybrids are among us, right now! At least according to this piece of work, or under done bit of potato, *Or what ever metaphorical adjective you'd care to invoke to encapsulate the nutters that have set up camp upon her. (One could just as easily read that as 'Jabbering fucking water head.'), or whatever had her addled to this frenzied level. After having watched that, and a couple of the others she's posted, I can only think of one thing. Minnie Driver's line from "Gross Point Blank.": "You're a fucking Psycho!"........Though there are probably a great deal more pathologies present, but...."Jebus-jumped up-christ!" Is about all I can say after hear that jabberwocky.
There are three things I'd like to say:
1. PZ, your theory of "the appendix is the holder of the soul" is flawed because I am a soul-less atheist and still have my appendix intact. oh, wait, maybe it's not functioning correctly? It is a vestigial organ, isn't it? :)
2. perhaps the creationists should use this godly-inspired excuse for an enema when they have appendix problems. Perhaps WE would have less problems then.
3. creationists are so full of shit that it's only natural that they love enemas. Most likely they NEED it to survive.
All things aside, it never ceases to amaze me how far are this so-called experts willing to go. The really sad thing is that there are others that will listen to these quacks.
I'm suprised Orac hasn't posted, with the latest news from EneMan!!
http://www.enemangoesto.com/
I like the idea that it is the location of the soul, since I had mine removed when I was nine, and a few years later decided I was a godless atheist.
I reckon PZ might be onto something here. I had an emergency appendectomy aged ten, & within two years I tore up my bible & had become an atheist.
Oh wait, I'd also read Darwin by then. Whew! So there's no need to invoke a soul residing in the appendix, or elsewhere.
Good timing, folks. I'm writing paper on vestigial anatomy - who can point me to good sources of info on vestgial structures that are less well-known than the appendix and wisdom teeth? Thx!
@175, Wikipedia is usually a good starting point.
The reason alternative woo practitioners are keen on enemas is that it is the closest they can get to an actual medical intervention without being sued for practising medicine without a licence. Think about it which other orifice can they interfere with without problems? 'Hopi' ear candles come to mind, but they only get through because they are not in the ear.
Would anyone let them stick a tube down their throat? how about a urethral catheter? Besides if you think enemas are sexually dirty it only proves you have a dirty mind. So problem solved. You have to understand how the fundie mind works when something needs to be sanctioned. Though it is strange that the dietary restrictions for eg are dispensed with because they are in the Old Testament yet homosexuality is a big no-no despite it also only being mentioned in the OT. Being a fundie is only relatively more consistent than more, um, compromising belief systems.
Lobelia?????? Dear God, I thought that stuff had fallen out of favor around the time Lincoln was shot!
spamhammer
I think the best examples of vestigial organs are the various blind cave tetras that, in living organisms, show:
1. Convergent evolution (they all lose useless eyes when in a lightless environment.)
2. Show a beautiful series of different levels of degeneration, for different lengths of exposure to lightlessness.
3. Show vestigiality perfectly: who would design a functionless eye? Or better yet, a series of more and more degenerate functionless eyes?! The eye is one of the creationists' favorite sources of personal incredulity; why not toss it right back at them?
4. Also note that, the more ignorant you are of science and biology in particular, the easier it is to apply your personal incredulity to more biological features. So: the studpider you are, the more creationism appeals to you. (Not that didn't know that!) Since all creationism is, at its root, is the personal inability to understand how something could have evolved, therefore God did it.
JBlilie,
Yeah, most arguments to support creationism seem to boil down 'I'm stupid and/or ignorant; therefore, god!'
I, personally, couldn't ever subscribe to a belief system that doesn't just prefer ignorance over knowledge but seems to flat-out demand it.
SHHHH! Don't refute their idea that appendicitis isn't a real, life-threatening problem... it's called natural selection.
Posted by: SteveL | February 11, 2009 11:34 PM
Facilis @#100:
Yeah, it certainly looks like a parody site except that it has a donations button. Though if it's a parody that's collecting money from the faithful, it's a great idea!
As much as Kent Hovind appears to be a parody, he's not. He is very well known in Fundie circles.
To see more of Hovind, and see him get thoroughly pwned, there are 2 video series on youtube that are very good at slamming Hovind, Cameron, Comfort, and a couple of youtube mouth breathers. One is the "Made easy" series, by a poster known as "potholer54debunks", and the other is called "Why do people laugh at creationists" series, by a poster named "thunderf00t". The first is just straight science, using the creationtards for counterpoint, the second is a straightforward slice and dice of almost every single creationtard claim available on video. They are both very good.
Made easy series This is also available as a DVD, free to educators.
Why do people laugh at creationists, part 1 (this is part one, there is a youtube series you can find if you want the player to go through the list for you. But at 28 and counting 10 minute videos, you would need to set aside a few hours for that..)
I can't believe you wrote an entire article on this and then neglected to include an appendix....
What's next, PZ - an article on fingers with no index?!
And article on posteriors with no endnotes?
An article on feet with no footnotes?
Things that make creationists look stupid: Creationism
There! I shortened it for you!
Neither am I a scientist, but we are an ape species which is descended from the same original ape species as the other apes are descended from.
That original ape species was a species of monkey which was descended from the same original monkey species as the other monkeys are descended from. Or something like that.
So, no current apes or monkeys are our ancestors, but earlier ones are.
Now that the appendix has been found to have function, it's function isn't good enough for you ...
Hilarious!
The recipe for the poultice is incomplete:
"Mix 1 tbs. of granulated or powdered lobelia with a large handful of granulated or crushed mullein leaves, and sprinkle with ginger. Add water to the herbs and mix into a paste, adding powdered slippery elm."
He forgot to add the Primal Shadow, and he fails to mention the need for a cauldron. At best all you can make with the ingredients listed above is a Potion of Waterwalking. At best.
Pseudo-alchemists such as Hovind do nothing to help the reputation of serious magicians. Seriously, where did this guy learn his craft?!!?
Speaking of things that make Creationists look stupid...
His 'medical advice' is dangerous, and might end up killing someone. As much as I wish ill on the creationist losers out there, I don't believe their children should end up dying for their stupidity. I hope no one is stupid enough to actually follow his advice.
RE:#96 from Maddogdelta, Thunderfoot is a fantastic youtuber. All of his videos are dry, smart and insightful. Haven't seen the made easy series yet, but I'm going there now.
sorry, not #96, but #184.
I am a healthcare provider. I was going to post a scientific response to this but after reading all of it, I was unable. I had to wipe the drool off my keyboard from my gaping mouth.
Isn't Ian Taylor the guy they found dead wearing 2 wetsuits with something shoved up his ass?
Not to defend the christians or anything but ... enemas seem to be useful for avoiding sub-acute appendicitis. One of the treatments to avoid appendectomy, which is being done much less frequently in this day and age, is to have an enema. I've had three bouts of severe sub-acute appendicitis, all following bouts of severe constipation and after two emergency room visits was told that surgery will almost certainly not be done unless severe infection was detected. In both cases I had an enema as part of the CT scanning process, and in both cases the pain associated with the infection decreased within 8 hours, not to mention the constipation (the first time when I was allowed to release, my god, what a feeling, akin to taking a pee after holding it for a 6 hour car ride.) Note that my brother is an emergency doctor, and has told me that he has also observed what I did.
Most naturopathic advice is nonsense, but not all. What is important is testing the treatments, or at least those that aren't just fucking stupid, like ingesting one molecule of something is sufficient to cure you of your stomach ache, or whatever.
This thread must be nearly over, but...as a youth, I had 4 or 5 instances of *recurrent appendicitis*, which never went to completion (i.e., kaboom). In grad school, I had another attack, then had my appendix removed. Voila, no problems for the next 30 years and counting. Also, I had a 59 year old friend who died of peritonitis due to appendicitis, whom no amount of poultice would have saved. Hovind should be taken to court for promulgating such medical nonsense.
I had a perforation in Australia while on sabbatical-- the hospital fed me morphine all day, claiming to be unsure what was wrong (ultrasound showed fluid in my abdomen in the early afternoon), but the evening surgeon bumped me up to the head of the list and saved my life (with a big assist from Flagyl). I wonder how idiots like this explain all the terrible deaths from trivial infections before antisepsis and antibiotics: were people really too stupid to go get a perfectly simple herbal poultice done? If that woman's daughter had died (assuming that silly, scary anecdote is true), she ought to have been charged with negligent homicide.
Wouldn't it be the height of hilarity if Kent got appendicitis and followed his own advice?
So we need socialists to take over the American health industry. Thanks for explaining, Kent.
Colon cleanse? http://www.amazon.com/Dr-Natura-Colonix-Cleanse-complete/dp/B000WB60RE/…
Maybe we should just pray. It would have the same effect.
So how do these people explain wisdom teeth? They really give you wisdom?
Once you get over an appendix problem, you must learn from the experience. Your eating habits should change and you should work to ensure that you remain regular.
It's much easier to change those eating habits when you're dead.....
Yikes. That brings up soo many bad memories. In 1984,my mom's appendix perforated, but the doctors didn't figure it out until it was almost too late. She nearly died on the table and spent a week in a coma fighting all the infection that had spread through her system. If only we had had some herbs.
this one is even scarier
http://www.drdino.com/articles.php?spec=87
"genetic decline of the human race"...I'm wondering who actually reads this stuff. (minus us biology majors looking for a laugh)
Two different anecdotes showing a possible correlation between an apendectomy and a de-conversion to atheism. Isn't the plural of 'anecdote' data?
The enema of my enemy is my friend.
I think Hovind is his own worst enema.
Wouldn't it be the height of hilarity if Kent got appendicitis and followed his own advice?
I knew a "devout" homeopath who was very loud decrying the evils of medicine and advertising the great power of homeopathy ... until his kidneys got infected. For a while, you could find him hooked to dialysis and devouring drugs and antibiotics like crazy. Being a smart fraud, he moved to a different city where he could find new faces to fool.
Some of these guys are not stupid, they just choose to make money off the gullibility of their followers.
Things that make creationists look stupid:
Mirrors (reflection in)
Words (use of)
Numbers (use of)
Breathing (mouth)
bio teacher (#175) said:
This is a really great overview:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section2.html#morphological_ves…
One of the treatments to avoid appendectomy, which is being done much less frequently in this day and age, is to have an enema. I've had three bouts of severe sub-acute appendicitis, all following bouts of severe constipation
Wouldn't it be better to change your diet just a little bit to avoid bouts of severe constipation?
Just sayin'.
I believe that a feeling of euphoria often follows purging. that's why it is so popular with quacks.
I forgot to mention that my new favorite vestigial structure that creationists hate was from a fairly recent paper on teeth formation genes in the chicken genome. The researchers were actually able to reactivate them and get chicken to grow teeth! The deactivated Vitamin C gene in primates is another good one.
I wonder if Hovind was potty trained using the book 'you're a naughty, naughty boy, and that's concentrated evil coming out the back of you'. It could explain a few of the questions that came to mind when I was reading his little web page.
If it weren't for the fact that many of his followers were parents and are likely to try this solution on their children, I'd fully support the treatment of creotard-appendicitis with enemas and herbal teas. Darwin Awards for everyone. - Jadehawk
Yes indeed. This would be a case of "My enemy's enema is my friend."
You would need a truck of herbs and a chef to prepare all the "natural" remedies and enemas. I hope these cranks will never subject their children to such a barbaric experience. They only forgot the medicine man dancing around and the goat sacrifice.
Assuming the patient lives 24 hours after suffering a burst appendix.
@214Damn! I see Mike@33 got there before me.
Gee, this guy is a creationist, and his advice about appendectomies ISN'T just to pray it away?
"Things that make creationists look stupid"
Reality comes to mind. . . . . .
who is your creator@188,
If you don't understand the difference between a vestigial and a non-vestigial organ, I suggest you get your liver removed and see how you get on. Or your brain - oh, wait, that wouldn't make the slightest difference in your case.
For the record, this whacko you're quoting does NOT represent the vast majority of Christians. Many of us actually use the brains God gave us. ;-)
"That their divine creator might have slipped up and stuck in some tissue that is less than perfect is anathema to them..." and that's why we have ritual circumcision.
re. 'chandelier positive' - yeah no kidding. My boyfriend in high school had his appendix rupture, and he developed some rapid classical conditioning that made him skittish about anybody touching anywhere near his tummy for months afterwards. And these guys want to *massage*?! the tummy?
Perhaps creationists are so facinated by enemas because they are so full of s.....
GE
When the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem is a nail. Instead of a hammer, the only tool in a creationist toolbox is assplay.
Here is my favorite.
There is a spider with HUGE testicals. They are so big, it has to twist one of them off just so it can eat.
Great design there Big G!
I think Hovind is his own worst enema.
That was true... until he went to prison for tax fraud.
Kent Hovind combines in one body just about every kind of conspiracy theory wacko there is: The Rapture, UFOs, surgically-implanted Mark of the Beast microchips, Bigfoot, anti-vaccination, tax-refusal, thousand-mile-per-gallon carburetors, you name it and Kent believes it passionately.
If he were an ice cream flavor, he'd be Rainbow Conspiracy Nut Swirl.
I believe this term was coined the other night for just this type of person
He's a walking "Woonado"
That's because they're looking for ways to dislodge their heads.
Great Lobster, secularguy, you ought to change your alias to "pedanticguy."
I know perfectly well that "we are an ape species which is descended from the same original ape species as the other apes are descended from." That fact is understood by everyone on this blog, barring the creationists. But Hovind referred to monkeys and apes in the present tense, reflecting his willful misrepresentation of that same fact.
I was merely participating in the general laughter at his idiocy. Why you viewed that as an opportunity to trot out your Evolution 101 summary, I have no idea. Now maybe you can run along and correct someone's spelling.
A Mirror.
Ugh. The ignorance - it hurts! In light of these creationist revelations, I say we prevent all creationists from ever developing appendicitis by taking them all and jamming a fire hose in the posterior terminus of the alimentary tract and dialling the pump head pressure up to 200psi.
Listen very carefully to the Darwinist's clever excuses when this is proposed: "Have a prime-time national TV debate of the true scientific evidences for a couple of hours from the one the evolutionists choose, and the one the Creationists choose (not the evolutionists choosing for them, as has happened in the past). Then, let the public, including the 'most educated,' decide for themselves." Now, again, listen to the evolutionist's contortions in response to this. It ought to speak volumes concerning their TRUE agenda.
Steve science isn't a popularity vote. It's vetted in peer review, in the research field and in the lab.
Once you creationists come up with actual evidence that can withstand the rigor of peer review then you'll be taken seriously.
Until then you can keep crying persecution and wishing it was put to a vote.
Now watch how he cries about peer review not being fair and see his TRUE agenda. Proving the bible true, not following the evidence.
Steve Sorensen, the proper place for the "debate" to take place is the peer reviewed scientific literature. Get your creobot buddies to submit papers to the journals. Don't be surprised if the papers come back rejected with "unscientific" in bold letters. Creationism and ID are religious ideas, not scientific ideas. Religion does not belong in the science classroom. Get over it.
Steve Sorenson,
Are you going to explain to us how bananas were invented by god to fit the human hand (or other parts of the body, if you're Ted Haggard)?
pz meyers... he's brilliant. Or perhaps, just hawking his ideas like Hawking. Capitalism at best. $$$. But bad science. OOOH...off to the dungeon, I'm sure, for me. Hmmmm, vaguely reminds me of the Emperor's New Clothes. Quick, everyone! Tell him he's dressed beautifully! Nonsense, or should I say, nonscience? Parameters you've defined for yourselves. And, Darwin? What a joke. If he'd had the technology we employ today, he'd have ripped up his first draft of 'Origin of the Species' as sci-fi. So, go get another PhD; it's a great way of immersing yourself in the academic quagmire that passes for science. Brilliant. So stupid it just might work. And, Primum movens? Someone made it all up. (But,who?) But. gee, what if you're wrong?
perilandrawaiting, do you have an actual point or argument to make?
But, gee what if we're right?
tresmal (fr. very bad?) "But, gee what if we're right? "
Prove it. Observably. Theories are... theories. Do YOU have an actual argument to make that's not nonsensical pseudoscience? Again, FACTS are proveable in lab.
Oh, one more thing, to answer your inquiry. If I am wrong, I have lost nothing. If you are wrong, you have lost everything.
pascal's wager. Epic Fail. which of the thousands of gods should i bet on? and would the correct god be more upset if i admit my ignorance, or if i worship the wrong god?
hmmm....
perilandrawaiting:
1) Theory: it doesn't mean what you think it means.
2) Evidence? Start here.
3) Pascal's Wager? Seriously? Consider this: After a tedious life of conformity and self denial perilandra kicks the oxygen habit. He(?) finds himself drifting toward a bright light, the sound of angels singing can be heard. Just as he is congratulating himself for his smart bet, he hears a magnificent and booming voice, "perilandra! Just what part of 'there is no God but Allah' didn't you understand?"
4) If you're wrong that 'nothing' is everything you have.
5) FWIW: Evolution does NOT equal atheism. Google Ken Miller sometime.
Thanks, but you lost me with "Universal common descent is the hypothesis that all living... ", must have been the word 'hypothesis'.
Ken Miller is an obviously bright theorist, as well, who takes exception to Behe's ID theory. (again, note the word: theorist) Miller is a Roman Catholic, I believe? The bottom line here is, while we can know some, we cannot know ALL, and should not presume that we do. The best we can do then, is to examine recent (<3000 BCE) written history and go from there. Hypothicating about millions and billions of years is simply that.
Ah, a creobot. Perilandawaiting, please cite the peer reviewed scientific literature to back up your inane claims. Failure to do so makes you a liar and bullshitter. After all, science is only refuted by more science. Region cannot be refuted by science, nor science by religion. But science can make religion, like creationsim/ID, look silly. Which it is.
Again, note that you are using the word 'theory' in a way that shows that you do not understand it. Here's a hint: gravity is a theory.
One day I'd like to hear the Theory of Intelligent Design explained. Not the concept, we've all heard that many times, but the actual theory.
Prove it. Observably. Theories are... theories. Do YOU have an actual argument to make that's not nonsensical pseudoscience? Again, FACTS are proveable in lab.
You keep using that word theory. I don't think it means what you think it means.
Isn't Ian Taylor the guy they found dead wearing 2 wetsuits with something shoved up his ass?
nope. I believe that was Gary Aldridge:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.obituaries/browse_thread/thread/5160…
Ken Miller is an obviously bright theorist, as well, who takes exception to Behe's ID theory. (again, note the word: theorist) Miller is a Roman Catholic, I believe?
too many non-sequitors in one sentence.
-Miller is a biologist, a well published one at that
-There is no ID theory (just ask Paul Nelson)
-That Miller is Catholic is EXACTLY why he was mentioned - he's also a staunch anti-creationist.
three strikes in one sentence. You need to go figure out wtf you're talking about before coming here, boyo.
"perilandrawaiting" (BTW, that looks like you took it from C.S. Lewis and misspelled it every time), it's obvious you don't have the slightest understanding of the meaning of the word "theory" in context. You've been offered links to definitions, but you won't read them. Like all creationists, you value willful ignorance above understanding or honesty. You don't know what the fuck you're talking about, and you don't want to know.
So, do you have a theory, by any definition? Even a hypothesis? Do you have anything that could possibly be tested? Do you have the slightest microscopic speck of evidence for any of your bullshit? No, of course you don't, all you have are absurd myths, long-debunked lies, and laughable scare tactics like Pascal's wager. And that's all you'll ever have.
If you have anything, anything at all, anything with the tiniest bit of support in the real world, go ahead and post it now. You won't, because you can't. You're full of shit.
You're a living example of what makes creationists look stupid. You use words without knowing what they mean. You babble nonsense that's been refuted countless times, some before you were even born. You reject all evidence, hide in abject terror from the facts, and whine like an infant when people dare ask you to support your bullshit. Well you can go fuck yourself. Your sick little cult demands denial and fraud, but no matter how many times you repeat your lies, it doesn't make them true.
Quite a flurry...and much ado about NOTHING. I'm sure you can prove it. (Nothing, that is.) BTW, I'm not a 'boyo', but thanks. How sexist an assumption? 'WTF'? Must be the King's English. ? Now, who's the stupid one?
SCIENCE IS GOD. AHHH. Now, we know.
perilandrawaiting
Do you have a point other than showing your ass to the internet?
perilandrawaiting, science ignores god in its workings. It cannot prove or disprove god, nor can god be used as an explanation. So saying science is god is nonsense. Something to expected from godbots. We scientists know better. So keep piling on the ignorance. The overnight crew is sharpening their wits for your further posts.
phantomreader42 You assumed I was referring to the CS lewis book in my sn? And that I am a creationist? Your profanity laced diatribe convinces me of what I already knew.
You're a living example as well, for now, but of what, I can't be sure.
Whining like an infant? This forum wins the all time prize for stupidity and whining. Nice to know you all have nothing else to do here... I'll check back next time I'm bored. Blast away, I'll enjoy it.
Seagull
So, perilanrawaiting, again you have not the slightest speck of evidence to support any of your bullshit.
If you don't like being called a creationist, stop spewing the same bullshit creationists keep regurgitating no matter how many times it's debunked.
If you have a problem with being told you're full of shit, you could try actually showing the slightest speck of evidence to support any of your idiotic assertions. Oh, wait, we've already established that you're incapable of that.
Wow, that was good stuff. I think the best part was that a fundy was advocating sticking something up the ass -- and something that blows out warm fluids, at that! Also, the nested wackaloon icon worked out well for when the one wackaloon was quoting the other wackaloon.
BTW, the link must have changed to:
http://www.drdino.com/read-article.php?id=74
Blast away, I'll enjoy it.
another enema fetishist speaks out.
Evolutionists will go to great lengths to try and discredit all creationists (many of whom hold advanced degrees from reputable institutions) with broad brush-strokes. Now YOU are told to take everything said in this article at face value. If you are not reconciled to your Creator, you may. Evolutionists are actually so very frightened of the tremendous volume of evidence for creation, they deliberately exchange the truth of God for a lie and essentially end up worshipping themselves. Many scientific creationists long for a national prime-time debate with one of the biggest guns of evolutionism, and one of the best creationists (chosen by the creationists, mind you). It will not come off. Fear is why. But the evolutionists will lie about that and say it would be a "waste of time." They know why they say that, and will lie to you about it, too. If not, then let the debates begin if you truly want to shut up creationists once and for all time. You won't, and you can't.
It's the eternal game of whack-a-mole. They just keep popping up, mouthing the exact same long-discredited crap, over and over and over. It gets wearisome, no?
First of all, there isn't a tremendous volume of evidence for creation. If so please show us.
Second of all, not frightened one bit.
You could look at Mt. Rushmore and convince yourself that a lot of time and much wind and rain and flooding and sand did that. No intelligent designer, you would say.
Not frightened on little bit? Then let the national PBS or NPR debates begin! You won't have that due to some kind of fear factor. Just what are you afraid of?
As usual, a nonsensical answer from an IDiot. If ID is scientific, please cite 10 articles from the last five years in the peer reviewed primary scientific literature showing the ID is a valid scientific theory. Until then, ID is a religious theory pretending to be scientific, and it failed miserably in court the one time it tried to prove otherwise.
Stephen D. S. the proper place for the debates to take place is in the peer reviewed primary scientific literature, where all science debates take place. Lets see the cowards of the ID crowd actually dare to publish in appropriate journals.
There's evidence for creation? Bring it! I look forward to seeing it. Just what type of creation? Young earth? old earth? Are you an IDer? Bring your best evidence, let's see how it stacks up against the current body of knowledge in science.
Uh, let's see, it's called: They won't let them due to evolutionary bias.
Steven, cite the scientific literature. Put up or shut up. Welcome to real science, where lies are exposed, and god plays no role in anything.
Have your bunch submit papers to the real science journals. We'll review them properly. If they are truly scientific and follow the rules of science, they will be published. If they contain lies, distortions, and god, they will be rejected.
Creationist stooge, Steven D.S. bleated:
Yeah, that's it. The big scary conspiracy theorists in the Worldwide Evolutionists Cabal™ are keeping all the creationist findings in science suppressed. I do so enjoy the cash I get for helping cover it up. Mmm-mmm, I love that hush-money.
Maybe you should loosen your tinfoil hat. It's cutting off much-needed circulation to your brain.
The call cry of the loser. It's not that millions of scientists including many religious ones have been convinced over the last 150 years that life has emerged on this planet over a 4 billion year history by the evidence, it's an evolutionary bias...
Do you have any idea how the scientific process works at all?
Oh, why not start right here? If you succeed in convincing anyone that you are not stupid, maybe things can be moved up a notch.
Let's see, you're starting out with stupid. That won't do at all!
How can "bias" suppress true evidence? Come on. If you say that God exists, and prove it by having God show up and prove his genuine omniscience, no "bias" in the world could suppress that!
Strike one. Want to try again?
In any case, show your evidence here. Remember that you need to account for the current evidences that support common descent (facts don't go away if you ignore the theory) and account for how creationism fits in with the facts from other scientific disciplines. That's the bare minimum one needs to do in order to demonstrate their worldview, and given the mountains of evidence for evolution that is quite a tall order. But go ahead, there are many here listening. Just for the record, what would make you change your mind about evolution? I can think of many ways to falsify evolutionary theory which would make me change my mind, can you say the same about your worldview? If not, then is it anything more than projection when you talk about bias?
"they deliberately exchange the truth of God for a lie and essentially end up worshipping themselves. "
I do so enjoy these little invented narratives. Is it so hard for people to believe that there are folks out there who don't worship anything?
"Then let the national PBS or NPR debates begin!"
Hoo boy. Televised debates are mostly just for determining who is the bigger bullshitter. I suppose that creationism does tend to play best in the superficial world of TV.
"You won't have that due to some kind of fear factor."
And it looks like TV is the only medium that goes fast enough for Steve's attention span.
"Uh, let's see, it's called: They won't let them due to evolutionary bias."
I got a dragon in my garage, but it won't let you see it because of your anti-dragon bias.
Well, let's see now. Too much helium in the sun for the evolutionists. They gotta call it dark matter or dark energy in the universe because they just do not have evolutionary evidence. They try and use a tiny little shoe-horn shaped shack-like building in New Jersey to verify the "big bang" from the static they pick up, after they clean off the bird poo mind you. They cannot begin to say what was before creation so they call it the "Big Pop" or whatever. They cannot say how the first living cell came into being with it's amazing activity inside Darwin would have been shocked about. They try to show old deformed skulls from who knows what processes to try and prove apes to men. And then the utter lack of fossils up to the apes themselves. Oh but they will try. Just give them a few scraps from the ground and with their clever ways and fairy tales, they can even use a British accent and special effects (cartoons), and they can convince the many gullible and naive. But there is so much more. Inconsistencies in galaxy light shifts. What they "try" to say are their reasons for the inconsistencies of the age of the universe compared to things in the universe. But they try. Then again there is the darn dark matter problem. Then there are the plutonium radio halos in granite, which, try as they may, they still can't account for. No, not really. Oh! Something else very curious. The population of the world. Even with computer models accounting for the "black plague" and the like, there just seem to be way too few humans on the planet for an evolutionary scenario. Then those blasted movements of our own planets! They should all be falling in line nicely with the molten massy mess they should have formed from in the traditional evolutionary picture, and those little things just won't cooperate! I think my space is up for this entry.
No citation to the scientific literature, which means you have nothing. You will have nothing and are an idiot to make assertions without being able to back them with evidence. Welcome to science.
Looks like I was right about the tinfoil hat and Steven's brain.
Steven, go away and find us a definition of evolution (written by someone who actually subscribes to the theory) in which it attempts to account for anything relating to helium, dark matter, galaxy light shifts, plutonium, granite or planetary movement.
If you can do that we'll listen.
Um...okay. Actually, we were asking for evidence for creationism. Not a bunch of half-baked, semi-coherent, and ignorant criticisms of "evolutionism" which range way outside the discipline of biology. But what do you say, guys, is he ready for Prime Time?
Sun, dark matter and dark energy to do with cosmology, not biology. As is the big bang. Fail
How the first cell came about doesn't have to do with evolution, it's a matter of biochemistry. Not knowing where life came from doesn't cast doubt on evolution. Fail
You have evidence that the variety of skulls and bones found in the recent fossil record are just deformed skulls? Show evidence of this please.
Again, a matter of cosmology and not evolution. Fail
Can you show evidence of this please? And read some Malthus while you are at it? Until recently the world could not sustain large populations, it wasn't long ago that the majority of the population didn't survive to reproduce. It's only in the last 100 years or so that we've been able to feed a large population and keep people alive through medicine. Anyway, show data and read Malthus please.
Traditional evolutionary picture? Again, show working please.
I am made more stupid because I read that word salad. Was there one sentence that made sense? Yet am other moron who made a fetish of his own ignorance.
Evolutionists are actually so very frightened of the tremendous volume of evidence for creation, they deliberately exchange the truth of God for a lie and essentially end up worshipping themselves.
*sniff*
that's the smell of projection in the morning...
smells like...
burning feces.
shorter Steven, DS:
Blah, blah, blah, blah GOD OF THE GAPS blah blahity blah-blah.
they can even use a British accent and special effects (cartoons), and they can convince the many gullible and naive.
??
British accents convince the gullible?
Won't Dawkins be pleased to hear that!
"Blah, blah, blah, blah GOD OF THE GAPS blah blahity blah-blah."
He doesn't even have the gaps, for the most part.
For an old universe:
For an old earth:
For life itself:
As for evolution:
And so on...
Would you like me to go on, I've barely scratched the surface.
And all of what Kel presented it back up by hundreds of thousands, if not millions of scientific papers. Good hard solid evidence. That if you wish to refute that, you can only do so with another scientific paper. So your work is cut out for you. Get started.
Dammit! Totally late to the game.
I was attending a friends heart attack, and trying to negotiate an egg contract. Gawd didn't show up to help with either.
#264 - Steven D.S. - (Dip Shit?) asks - Just what are you afraid of?
Nothing. What are you afraid of? Hell fire? Gawds wrath? Death? I fear nothing. I can rut, suck, run amok and have no fear. How about you? Inquiring minds want to know.
What an ignorant drive by creationist troll.
no such thing.
Patricia wrote:
You putting a hit out on a rival chicken queen? Damn, the poultry business is a lot tougher than I thought!
*smile*
No, Wowbagger, I'm negotiating an egg contract with the local organic CSA. (Community Supported Agriculture)
But trust me, if another local chicken queen claims her drumbsticks, breasts or eggs are better than mine - fights on!
That's mistress of poultry. May your hens lay two eggs per day.
Hope your friend is OK.
@Kel [#286],
"For life itself:
- Multicellular life is billions of years later"
Pedantically speaking, 2 to 4 billion is still considered "billions" -- but I think you meant _millions_ there, correct?
Nice list, nevertheless. Sadly, I wasn't familiar with HE0107-5240.
*surfs off to edify...*
The heart attack of my friend, has been sort of a Dan Dennett experience...sort of.
He was a pagan going into it (may still be), but he said it was the people, equipment, helicopter, doctors and drugs that saved him. Not god.
I believe that. I'm still waiting for gawd to give me back my grandpa.
Nope, billions. I normally say 700 million years ago when talking of multicellular life, but recently I was corrected on that figure - animal life being around 700 million years ago and other multicellular life as early as 2.1 billion years ago. I've been busy so I haven't had a chance to verify that information so I felt it best to be vague until I can check the facts. Technically that would be around 1.8 billion years later so using the world billions would be technically incorrect, but given the uncertain time frame of when the origin of life starteed I guess that is permissible.
@Kel [#296],
True, but "hundreds of millions" or "a few billion" may come off as more legibly pleasing when only discussing 1s of billions.
(crazy font... that was meant as "ones" not "is", FWIW)
This article is useless, it proves nothing. The biologist needs to go back to his lab and stay in the field he studies in. I also see that this is a place not to read the articles but the comments that people write. The comments really show the Darwinian resentment to the truth and desire to live in sin & immorality. God have mercy on all of you.
Actually I hate to say it but Kent Hovind is right on this one. I think it might be best if we keep this one to ourselves.
How are appendectomies immoral?
About what? About appendectomies being useful organs? I'd like to see a citation for that. About using herbal enemas to treat peritonitis? I'd really like to see a citation for that!
correction: appendixes being useful organs.
There is a link to Crohn's post-appendectomy, and Crohn's is linked to cancer, so it's not THAT MUCH of a stretch. And while treating something that serious with enemas seems insane, I don't think that you can discount the idea that hacking it out is not the best we can do. It's obviously partially caused by diet etc, so we should be able to prevent it in our kids in the first place by being smart about food, but that's besides the point. Who cares if it sounds crazy if it works? 4 months later you go to bat with a new study talking about the functions of the appendix and you conclude that maybe it does matter. Maybe it's worth saving! Maybe these kinds of natural healing ideas are worth taking lessons from! Maybe there is another way to save the appendix.
And they missed one of the funnier things Dr. Schulze says, that there are stories of people in the operating room squeezing the severed organ together squirting out all the parasites that have grown in there, nasty! The guy has said some bonkers stuff in the past, such as he believes that the bible stories of people living for hundreds of years are true, but not everything he says is without merit...
An old post perhaps this won't be read, but couldn't resist throwing it out there...