Good news, all! Ben Stein has withdrawn from the UVM commencement. I think we can thank Richard Dawkins' clout for helping with this one.
Here's the letter from President Fogel. They asked Stein to speak as an authority on economics?
Dear Professor Dawkins,
As one who has been deeply instructed by your work and who applauds your scientific leadership, I was honored to find a personal email from you in my inbox, but very sorry indeed that the occasion was the decision to invite Ben Stein to be a Commencement speaker and honorary degree recipient. Although we have recently learned that Mr. Stein will be unable to receive the honorary degree here or to serve as Commencement speaker, please know that it was our expectation that his remarks would address the global economic crisis and that he would speak from his widely acknowledged area of expertise on the economy. We regret that he will be unable to do so.
With thanks again for writing, with admiration, and with every good wish--Daniel Mark Fogel, President, The University of Vermont
And Dawkins' reply:
Dear President Fogel
Thank you very much indeed for your extremely gracious letter.
I cannot disguise my gladness that Ben Stein will not be going to Vermont. Thank you very much for letting me know. I wish you, and your great university all good fortune. Please let me know if there is anything I can do to help.
With my very best wishes, and thanks again for your letter
Yours sincerely
Richard Dawkins
Another victory against creationists!
- Log in to post comments
And economists!
Stein, you are expelled!
"Science leads you to killing people"
how do you expect a guy like that to be able to talk about anything ?
*JAZZHANDS*
Hmmm, interesting that Stein all of a sudden can't make it. I wouldn't be surprised if you had something to do with that as well, PZ. BS as an economy expert my ass... did you not somewhat recently post a video of him and other Fox news correspondents childishly refuting the imminent economic crisis last year, that is now an obvious fact of life? This whole thing is quite fishy... but what a fantastic conclusion!
Huh. That is good news. I would have liked to see him get a thorough ass whooping there though. I would have encouraged a series of signs that said "Ben Stein is like Hitler" or other such things.
I have been thrilled out of my gourd that Richard Dawkins sometimes comments on the some of the same blogs on that I comment.
So I know how President Fogel feels!
"widely acknowledged area of expertise on the economy???"
I wouldn't want Fogel handling my money. Perhaps he should read this recent article about how great an economist he is.
If there is another IDiot movie, this will be part of it, if he can spin it as "persecution." I hope that the conditions really were that he quit of his own free will, so little can be made of it.
Not that it would be a disaster if he had been pressured to quit, since he has so many stupid statements out there that only people who thought Expelled really was an expose would be troubled by a disinvite.
Even so, it's not really so clear that getting that fuck-up off the stage was a victory against creationists. It was neither terribly important that he was invited, and any slight illusion of "expulsion" will feed the frantic spittle-fleckers.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/6mb592
They learned this from Stein himself? I wonder what sort of thing could come up in Stein's life that would prevent him from receiving an honorary degree? Or is he just unable to receive an honorary degree "here" -- on location?
Mr. Stein's personal assistant confirms that it turns out Ben was scheduled to wash his hair that night all along.
He forgot!
The University of Vermont has announced that participating in the commencement pomp and receiving the honorary degree in his place will be either Ben, or Jerry, whichever one gets there first. Again.
Cue persecution complex in 3...2...1
Wow! That was totally unexpected.
Match point: The good guys.
*Does a happy dance*
Kudos to all involved for a happy resolution - Professor Dawkins, PZ, Kevin, many letter writers, etc. You're right we have to thank Professor Dawkins big time on this one, but it is wonderful that there were so many others helping to spread the word also. The internet media can be very powerful! I don't think many want their university to become the butt of jokes.
Did we just "prove" Ben's point? I say no -- but they will say yes.
Suspect we see the dif between a commencement address and honorary degree and an invite to guest lecture and be appropriately challenged in course.
Rest assured "they" will not distinguish. I am happy Ben was exposed (not not expelled as he meant it in the film) but be prepared for the unjustified slings and arrows.
Very good news.
Is it my imagination or are the xian Dominionists and their fellow travelers getting their asses kicked?
Maybe. Looks like the USA went to the edge of the cliff. Fell off and is now clinging to a small tree over the abys.
People aren't happy these days with the way things have gone.
More of a holding action than a victory. Ben was invited, an expose in ignorance. It took many disgruntled letters and intervention of an internationally known science popularizer to get back to square one. I'm heading to Vermont I've always wanted to meet the Red Queen.
"....widely acknowledged area of expertise on the economy."
Whahahahahahahahaha!
Dawkins ended his letter with this:
"I wish you, and your great university all good fortune. Please let me know if there is anything I can do to help. "
Hmmmmm. Did he just offer to give the commencement address at Vermont?
Whiners in 3...2...1...
I think I would have preferred for B.S. to give that speech ... in an mostly deserted hall, with an enormous protest going on outside.
I guess B.S. saw it coming and backed out ...
Anyway, message to the intolerant: Think twice before you refuse PZ access to a screening of your movie: it may cost you an Honorary Degree! ;-)
From what I've seen, Stein's expertise in economics has exactly the same credibility as his expertise in the biological sciences. He's another idiot that touted the "success" of the stock market and the economic policies of George W. Bush, thereby helping to dig the hole the nation (and the world) are in it this time. Good riddance.
#18 "intervention of an internationally known science popularizer" ... looks like BS already backed out himself even before the Vogel - Dawkins email exchange happened (which I hope is genuine ... anyone can post here as 'Richard Dawnkins')
Healthcare we can believe in.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1133423/Nurse-suspended-offerin…
Enjoy.
Here's a thought: What if they replace him with Dawkins? That would be a double-win.
From Fogel's wording it sounds to me like either Stein was really double booked or he was asked to quit but is keeping up the appearance that he pulled out for personal reasons (so not as to seem weak).
"I wonder what sort of thing could come up in Stein's life that would prevent him from receiving an honorary degree?"
His lack of honor, I'm guessing.
Excellent news!
No kings,
Robert
I have yet to see 'Expelled', as soon as the DVD shows up in a local Thrift Store I'll buy it. That way none of the money goes to the (ahemmm) creators and a copy gets out of circulation away from the vulnerable.
At least the folk at the commencement that studied so hard for so long will have a pleasant day to cherish...
Not having the drama of some anti-science clown like Stein to chastise will allow concentration on righteous celebration...must keep a beady on Fogel though...good job Hovind is still banged up!
Sure you can think that if you're into conspiracy theories. Or you could just confirm it really easily.
Nice to see Richard Dawkins turning up here now and then. I don't comment at his site, but I stop in every morning to read his news posts.
This feels like a win. Let's celebrate!
Ben Stein is one of the men who laughed the people predicting the current crisis out on Fox, and he's supposed to talk about the crisis he claimed wasn't coming?
Thank you Professor Dawkins.
Your involvement is appreciated by those gifted with reason!
HAPPY MONKEY!!
I can see the movie sequel already: "I didn't realize the true power of the Darwinists until recently, when I myself was fired from a speaking job at the University of Vermont. Now I have clear eyes about the lengths these quote-unquote scientists will take to silence opposition and deny our students access to academic freedom. This same college used to teach classes in Nazi Darwinist eugenics, but they won't let me speak about Jesus? Wow."
Dawkins, what a guy...! And we don't even have to pray to him. Let's see if Jesus can trump this.
WOOOOO HOOOOOO!
Great work Professor (RD) and Professor (PZ) and all the letter/e-mail writers!
I cheered when I saw the title in my RSS feed. Score one for the good guys.
There's an old joke about a son, just awarded a PhD, who tells his mother "Now I'm a doctor."
The mother answers "By you you're a doctor, by me you're a doctor, but by a doctor are you a doctor?"
Speaking as a professional economist, by me Ben Stein is not an economist.
"...we have recently learned that Mr. Stein will be unable to receive the honorary degree here or to serve as Commencement speaker..."
This is of course the way the decision would be announced. It would be ungracious for a university to invite someone (even a boob like Stein), then publicly embarrass him by announcing he'd been disinvited.
That said, we can't rule out the very strong possibility that Stein (in this one narrow instance) did the right thing by pulling out to spare his friend and the university from an embarrassing controversy.
None of this lessens my delight that he will not be given a platform to speak at UVM (whether it's on economics, ID or Flat Earth Theory).
Stein the economist is almost as much a hack as Stein the Biologist. The guy was totally pwned over the last two years, his predictions for the housing market, financial brokerages, stock market, economic growth, inflation, unemployment, nearly every step of the way, he was wrong. It was almost as if execs, investors, etc., were looking at what Stein predicted and then did the opposite. "Stein says buy xxxx, quick everyone, sell, sell SELL!!!"
Big picture puts a lot of it together, ironically just this week:
http://bigpicture.typepad.com/comments/2008/01/farewell-to-ben.html
And if BS says he was expelled, we can just point to the letter by Daniel Fogel which makes it clear he wasn't. He wouldn't accuse a friend of lying, would he?
flatlander100 @ #20
I got the same impression . . . it's not that Dawkins needs an honorary PhD, I'm sure his real one is quite enough for him. But does anyone else think there needs to be a letter writing campaign to propose Dawkins as a replacement for Ben Stain?
Coming from a Vermonter, they should give Dawkins the degree and let him speak!
I hope snotty Stein doesn't retaliate with Glenn Beck stupidity marathons.
"Daddy, this is the best Happy Monkey ever!"
Little Gary slept peacefully that night, with visions of Higgs bosons and transitional forms populating his dreams.
The sun did not rise, but revealed itself the very next morning, casting light upon a world where colors seemed brighter, sounds more melodic, the air a bit cleaner and crisp with the cool certainty that right had been done.
It was indeed a very Happy Monkey.
UVM website still lists Ben Stein as the commencement speaker.
http://www.uvm.edu/~cmncmnt/
It's too bad that President Fogel is under the impression that the game-show host, speech-writer and supposed actor is able to address the economic crisis. As I recall, Mr. Stein's expertise is minimal and out of date.
I do not think that his foolish support for creationism should have anything to do with a school not giving him an honorary degree relating to economics, nor should it effect him giving a commencement address as an economist. No, the fact that he is a completely incompetent economist despite his degrees should be the reason he should never grace the commencement platform. Ben Stein has been one of the loudest proponents of deregulation of the financial markets, and still believes the markets should be left alone and allowed to regulate themselves.
Oh, happy day! Inviting such an anti-intellectual to speak at a college is like inviting an atheist to give a sermon. Well, except that many religious experts are atheists ... never mind.
There's a poll over at the Expelled site:
Do you think Darwin's theories are OUTDATED?
http://www.expelledthemovie.com/
Yes... 75%
No... 21%
Maybe... 4%
Attack!
While I doubt he has anything relevant to say on economics either, it's not exactly a victory against *creationists* per se, is it? Instead, let's just call it a victory for rationality.
Didn't Stein just admit to a national readership that he wasn't even successful at teaching his own children about how money works? What useful bits of wisdom could he possibly have to pass on to an auditorium full of kids, other than, "Do the opposite of everything I've advised over the years and maybe you'll come out ahead"?
Hold on! There's wiggle room in this statement.
...learned that Mr. Stein will be unable to receive the honorary degree here
Is Stein still going to receive the degree, just not accept it during the ceremony?
Will somebody from UVM follow up on this?
dogmeatib, that link from the Big, Bold, Beautiful Barry was a year ago.
Fogel is making a mistake if he thinks that anyone is listening to Stein regarding economics/finance. He is a joke in the world of economics and has been for several years. His columns are full of math errors. And before he became disgraced by showing his idiocy and ignorance of how financial markets work in his accusing Goldman Sacks of causing the stock market downdraft by shorting, I likened him to a lucky drunk whose luck would eventually run out and go splat under a big wheeler. Too bad the humdrum and fatigued grasp Stein had on finance did not include setting a stop loss on his own idiocy.
Ben Stein as an expert on the economy??? Right....
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=zz_yw0kq3MM
Whenever I read something Dawkins has written, I have his voice reading it in my head. It's quite pleasant.
Stein's not going to show? Dammit.
I really wanted to see the crowd's reaction and the photos confirming it.
I had imagined something like the response given to the Fred Phelps menagerie by University of Wyoming students when those pukes showed up at Matthew Shepherd's memorial.
To refresh your memories: The Phelps clan, cloistered together within a corral of pedestrian barriers. Their ugliness and their ridiculous signs mercifully blurred by a soft snowfall. Surrounding them a circle of people dressed as angels, facing outward, ignoring the foul rabble. Cunning as serpents. Harmless as doves. I don't think Fred has gotten over it yet.
While we'll not get to see a similar demonstration of dismissal at the UV ceremonies the fact that Stein has demurred is nearly as satisfying. He must have read his tea leaves. (Or maybe the groundswell was obvious even to him.)
We do make a difference, you know.
Hooray! - a small but somehow satisfying victory. When centres of learning rebuff ignorance-peddlers like this, I think we can all feel a little happier about the world we live in
It's too funny seeing these two pissing on each other with polite language. The emails, translated:
Dear Professor Dawkins,
I'll call you "Proferssor" rather than "Richard" to make obvious the point to that this reply is only a professional courtesy.
As one who has been deeply instructed by your work and who applauds your scientific leadership,
...I know you're writing as one of those "militant atheists" but I'm only acknowledging you because of scientific expertise.
I was honored to find a personal email from you in my inbox,
...surprised and curious why you would be writing to me
but very sorry indeed that the occasion was the decision to invite Ben Stein to be a Commencement speaker and honorary degree recipient.
...complete pissed-off that you would presume to challenge me on my choice of commencement speaker.
Although we have recently learned that Mr. Stein will be unable to receive the honorary degree here or to serve as Commencement speaker,
...having come to a private agreement with my friend Ben that this year's commencement may not be the best time or place for us to pursue our personal agendas.
please know that it was our expectation that his remarks would address the global economic crisis and that he would speak from his widely acknowledged area of expertise on the economy.
...we were going give him a platform to share his god fearing, real american, anti-lefty-pinko-commie-pallingaroundwithterrorists-ifyournotwithusyouragainstus-perverthomosexualloving-taxandspenddemocrat-atheiststaretoblamefortheholocaust message under the guise of his "expertise" on the economy.
We regret that he will be unable to do so.
...we regret that you're able generate enough embarrassing publicity to force us to change our plans.
With thanks again for writing,
...piss off
with admiration,
...you atheist bastard
and with every good wish
...may you burn in hell
--Daniel Mark Fogel, President, The University of Vermont
...I'm making to point to sign my name with my position and affiliation to show that I'm an important person and that you should respect me and my opinions because of it.
And Dawkins' reply:
Dear President Fogel
...so you're going to be a prick
Thank you very much indeed for your extremely gracious letter.
...I can play the "politely rude" game too
I cannot disguise my gladness that Ben Stein will not be going to Vermont.
...pwnd!
Thank you very much for letting me know.
...I know how much you hate me for spoiling you plans
I wish you, and your great university all good fortune.
...hope your University survives you pathetic leadership
Please let me know if there is anything I can do to help.
...I'm ready fight you and your nonsense anywhere, any day
With my very best wishes, and thanks again for your letter
...kiss my ass
Yours sincerely
Richard Dawkins
I'm making a point of NOT using my titles or affiliations to make the point that I'm confident my arguments will stand on their own merits.
bwahahahahaaa!! I have greater expertise on the economy, and I'm a Starving Artist
glad to hear the graduates at UVM won't have to suffer through his babble
Richard sez:
I so love this.
^_^J.
Not sure if you guys are aware that Stein recently wrote a column where he laments the fact that HIS OWN SON is not financially responsible.
Haven't we all had enough of the experts who have and are robbing us blind, given more exposure so they can influence how we go about fixing the mess they created?
Solutions are easy. Tax wealth. Regulate banks and investment companies like Roosevelt. Aggressive oversight of consumer products and food. Support of worker's rights to unionize. Real simple answers. Obama has it easy. The roadmap for how to deal with robber-baron economies already exists.
All he has to do is read them, and I'm pretty sure he has. That's why the media is pre-emptively branding him a socialist. The two or three people that own EVERYTHING in the world are scared as shit they might have to share. They might even have to share the microphones and cameras with elitists (educated middle class people).
As a matter of fact, they can no longer hog the stage because the stage is right here where you are reading this post. This explains the general media slandering of 'bloggers'. They revile us because they fear us.
As an aside.....
Michael Phelps was just caught smoking pot. He also won more Olympic gold medals than anybody in history. Obama admits to having used marijuana and he is now President. I think you can see the connection.
Free the Weed
Stop the Hate
Regulate
Enjoy.
Very insightful RobinSV.
For some reason I kept picturing Fogel as Cornelius Fudge, Minister of Magic, and Professor Dawkins as Dumbledore.
Hah! Fabulouse!
. This explains the general media slandering of 'bloggers'. They revile us because they fear us.
In fairness, most blogs are terrible.
I'm for legalising weed and not spelling words with z instead of s, but those two examples are really not statistically significant.
The Tim Channel (individual or corporation?) said:
Names and mug shots please.
Under achievers
Are often believers
Who think others are also believers.
When they don't have squat
They just know that it's not
Their incompetence.
It the fault of the theivers.
Sorry. Tortured verse for tortured minds, I guess.
What is striking in the letters, I think, is the poise and civility of both men. We are lucky to have such civilized folk in the academy. (Long may it last.)
addendum to #69:
I forgot my tag line - E Pluribus Unum.
Somehow.
You hit the nail on the head Boletus at comment #70. Civility and reason will eventually win the day for atheism or, more to the point, will prove the death knell of religious irrationality.
By the way (and I know that PZ and Professor Dawkins might disagree), I think everyone should watch "Expelled" for a good laugh. I thought the interviews with PZ and Dawkins made Stein look like an idiot. What did he expect Dawkins would do - use the occasion to announce his new theory on the origin of biological replicators?
Even his expertise in economics is questionable. He was one of the clowns running around saying things were going to continue being lollipops and rainbows until the end of time. He scoffed repeatedly at the idea that it might just be a bubble, or that every other such period of growth in the history of the world has always been followed by some period of decline. About the only thing this man is expert at is hiding from reality.
Tim Channel, yes I'm aware of Stein's columns - I'm a regular commenter at Ben Stein Watch (here's a sample), and I recently pulled his lungs out of his nose and wrapped them around his head for telling the American people that "you are still a good person" despite all the $$ they lost taking Stein's disastrous economic advice in 2007. (Not me though, I knew the guy was nuts.)
People are happy, but I cannot believe what a FUCKING COWARD Ben Stein is!
He wrote an autobiography about his Hollywood exploits, bragged that he sees his dogs and his twenty-something girl "friends" more than his own wife, gloated about all the prostitutes he knows, and now he's Mr. Morality preaching to us all about "education!"
He wrote another autobiography, one that even his fans at Amazon call narcissistic, about being the (adoptive) father of his son, spoiling the kid rotten, rarely seeing his wife, and then he lets loose in that NY Times column about how [surprise] spoiled his newly married, jobless brat son is. Not only that, he spills the beans about the looming bankruptcy of some rich bimbo friend he has who lived on alimony and spent thousands each month, and gave enough details about her in his NY Times column to alert her lover that she's thinking of dumping him when she hasn't told the guy yet. Jesus, how gauche.
According to people posting about it on the internet, he reportedly threw himself at his female contestants on "Win Ben Stein's Money" (with a marked lack of success it seems).
Then he wrote and starred in this piece of filth called Expelled, ostensibly to call for students to take control of their own education, and when the students do, forcing Stein to confront the "controversy" that he helped create, and presenting Stein with an opportunity to apologize and atone for the utter crap, sickening hogwash, and vile defamatory turds he piled on the academy, and HE RUNS AWAY. And on top of that, he makes racist comments (because he's a fucking racist) to a wincing Michael Shermer, who hopes that his black secretaries haven't heard them. Well, I'm sorry.
Ben Stein is apparently a master at compartmentalization, appealing to the snake handlers, then lusting after Darwinian academic trophies, weeping about the Holocaust but putting down African-Americans ("Obama will be another Mussolini!"), but he should not and as long as I live will not allowed to walk away from his own statements. "Science leads you to killing people" should be mentioned every damn time that he is. (He's speaking at Harding University, too, though not at a commencement.) That amazing quote should be carved on his gravestone. What a gutless, ball-less, brainless wonder, what a worthless crybaby this privileged, talentless git is.
RobinSV @ 62 wins the thread !
I was thinking exactly the same thing when I read those mails.
Isnt the English language just marvellous for disguising insults as politeness.
Thanks Robin.
Hilarious!(because it's true)
This is good, because Stein is an ignoramus on economic matters, too.
I'm sure the publicity, and the promise of more bad publicity, that Dawkins' letter and PZ's (and others) postings provided were a push, but I'll bet local faculty, and possibly alumni funders, were a big reason behind it. As for Stein says he can't make it, that sounds like the "wants to spend more time with family" excuse all these wusses give when they're fired.
Oh ho! This will probably be the topic of the sequel Expelled II, more boring than the first one, starring again the self pitying Ben Stein in his whinier than usual voice, who will be whining that he got expelled by those damned... EVILUTIONISTS *bam bam bam*
Thanks for sounding the alarm PZ! I think it's great to have a watchdog leader of reason like you who can quickly call attention to a situation (e.g., Cincinnati zoo, UVM commencement) and get people motivated to take action. The Pharynguloids here are mighty awesome!
Could we digress from Ben Stein's Money for a moment.
Need a little help here:
Reading about the POKEY element coding for rDNA. What does POKEY stand for and what is it?
Ladies and Gentlemen,
You have brought warmth and security to my heart by your swift and decisive action.
SilverFox pretending to read science....
2 seconds of googling to find the answer to your question,SF.
Can you do it?
Ben used to have a show called "Win Ben Stein's Money". Now, he can have a new show, called "Clean Ben Stein's Clock". Each week, a person with anything more than 1/4 of a functional brain can debate Ben on a subject of Ben's choosing and clean Ben Stein's clock. I'd watch.
Silver Fox, until you can begin to understand the difference between the primary peer reviewed scientific literature and nonsense, we can't help you. Particularly when you focus on the nonsense.
MSNBC survey on whether or not god should remain on U.S. Currency.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10103521/
You mean he inhaled???
<shock horror>
I have to repeat this unchanged (except for the addition of the obligatory attempt at googlebombing), because the tallies haven't changed so far.
Only two autobiographies? Linnaeus wrote five.
Forget about it, it's already got over 10 million votes!
And he inhaled!?!
Jim the bullshitter - ""evil can sometimes be rationalised as science" which - in respect of the nazis - happens to be true".
Fractally dishonest.
The writings and speeches of hitler and other nazi leaders make it clear they were "doing god's work". They lay no claim to science as justification for their crimes, and specifically oppressed scientists as you and ther other apologists do today.
Good grief, Obama was a high school student in the 70s and anyone with a brain really thinks he didn't inhale (and deeply) at least once before he left college? They're higher than Bill Maher is right now if they believe that b.s.
I tried to post that on the other thread but my mobile browser can't handle large threads. Time for a new phone, I think.
Also I am trying to watch the superbowl but I only saw about 10 mins of play. I switch channels to avoid the halftime and 'age of love' is on. What pathetic, desperate people. Obama hasn't a hope of fixing that and I'm depressed now.
Hazzah! Score one for the good guys!
Benny reached for his degree
Huh-uh, said PZ and RD
So when he got edgy
They gave him a wedgie
And now he must unzip to see.
What's weird is that someone, for some reason, thought Ben Stein would be a good speaker. Yet, before Expelled, because of things like "Win Ben Stein's Money," such a choice might not have phased me. He had a resume (speech writer, economist, actor...) and a reputation as being some smart guy if you never paid any attention to what he has actually written and said. But once you do pay attention -- Holy Shit! How in the world did a moron like that get so far in life?
I am in awe.
Ben Stein, legs athwart tail. Via simple public humiliation.
I thought: yeah, yeah*, like some thread on a blog will wail seriously on filth. Sure, all that flamewar'n'death threats'n'stuff, like how is that different from the old BBS days. Amusing to watch and sometimes participate in.
I can't even help on this one 'cause I'm not alumnic from there. Not just a poll crash.
Hah.
Shitfuckdamn! Just think, if Stein gets uppity about this, y'know, tries to retaliate or something, it'll be like bringing your wanking mojo to a brain-fight.
*sarcastic double positive, y'know. Just thought I'd point that out. It's got that negative connotation.
SilverFox@81
Here you go...
Still afraid of the truth, like all evolutionists are!
Beg pardon, Gerry Shuller?
Are you sure we are not afraid of "Truth" as opposed to truth?
Please specify.
I simply CAN'T WAIT to hear the wining on FOX and the echoes of the incompetents that support this fur-ball.
Hell, why pay for laughs when you can get them on cable!
Or vice versa? Your short comment says little while demanding much. I demand that you clarify or retract. How 'bout that?
Crudely Wrott,
I suspect Gerry Shuller means "The Truth," not "Truth" or "the truth."
It's important to be pedantic when participating in sophistry.
That's assuming this new topic drift aspires to ever getting to that level.
I second Crudely Wrott's demand.
And endorse their 'nym.
Agreed, Cannabinaceae. No matter the confusion engendered by various word patterns, there is something about the word "truth." Something does not include sophistry or waffling. To speak truth means to speak plainly to the subject, to communicate without mystery. To admit lack of certainty.
Shuller fails on all counts. So far. Maybe he will clarify.
Norman Doering:
But once you do pay attention -- Holy Shit! How in the world did a moron like that get so far in life?
"Darwinism can't explain it." ;-) Probably because "Darwinism" doesn't involve having a rich father.
Gerry Shuller #98 wrote:
No, this has to do with appropriate venue. A man who has spent so much effort promoting pseudoscience has no business receiving an honorary degree and speaking at a commencement ceremony for a prestigious secular university which prides itself on its science department.
It would be similar to Richard Dawkins being given the same honors at Liberty University, or some other college dedicated to promoting a conservative version of Christianity and Creationism. Surely those students and faculty who protested would be reasonable to do so, and not guilty of trying to "suppress" the views of atheists or evolutionary biologists.
Science theories themselves don't fight it out in public speaking engagements. They do it in the proper peer review literature. Neither Creationism nor its watered-down kin Intelligent Design are capable of honest competition in this venue. That's why they put so much emphasis on people finding out the "truth" in speaking engagements.
Nobody is preventing "top ID scientists" from doing good research and experiment. They are prevented by their lack of a testable theory -- which means that phrase will always be in scare quotes.
RobinSV - Very nice translation.
You owe me a sangria and four tissues.
No, Gerry, I'm not afraid. Odin isn't bothered by evolution. He understands it and appreciates it's elegance. He won't judge me negatively for that. He will judge you negatively, however, for worshiping a false god (that really gets his goat). Good luck with that.
Now, Gerry, another question is raised by your previous comment.
Are you familiar with all evolutionists? Have you parsed all their arguments? Can you write a short paragraph describing the way the world works?
Please do try. Dognose I have been trying for forty mumble years. If you have insight that I might profit by, please divulge it!
off topic... The Guardian in the UK has a headline saying "25% Of Britons Believe Darwin's Theory Of Evolution" but I can't access the page because it asks for subscription... anyone seen this piece... also, what the freaking hell?
Another victory for this amazing blog.
Barack Obama "I inhaled frequently" "That was the point"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpBzQI_7ez8
As far as objective reality goes, I'm generally only disappointed by it, never afraid of it. Note: I'm using the term "objective reality" to refer to "The Truth," in the sense of "what actually happens, so far as we can tell."
For example, if I test my model*, and it fails its predictions, I am disappointed. This is actually what usually happens, not just to me, but to most of the scientists I know.
I will grant (in general, not "to" you specifically, Gerry) that I used to be afraid of the truth, back in the early days when I hadn't really caught on to the fact that science is essentially a field in which disappointment, of the type I am describing, reigns. It's pretty darned hard to make a meaningful advance. I was hoping my insight and talents would just sort of automatically pave new roads, so to speak. So my "fear" as it were, wasn't even the trembling kind, just the angst of seeming incompetent. What kinds of fears do you have Gerry? I suspect you fear, and secretly believe, that "The Evolutionists" are actually right.
*I'm talking here about the kinds of models that try to explain things that haven't been worked into the generally accepted view of what goes on. Specifically: unexplained phenotypes, but the idea transcends biology.
NB, Gerry. No one, I included, is making fun of you.
Many are making fun of your drive-by comment. Surely you must have more to offer. The more you have to offer, and the more you engage in rational discussion, the more respect you stand to gain. How 'bout that?
Please reply. It would only be fair if you did.
"They asked Stein to speak as an authority on economics?"
Well, his academic work when he was a professor WAS on economics. Maybe he knows a bit more about that than biology? Doubtful.
Could it be that science again has found a voice in the Ethosphere and superstition and lies are failing to be tolerated? What's next - oil companies that actually LOSE money?
@112, you observed:
Exactly what many fail to account for, not being able to identify absolute truth.
Science does not address certainty or absolutes. "Cept math and the physics. It only addresses those phenomena to which we can assign some degree of probability, based on our previous experience. Such an arrangement guarantees only that accepted hypotheses are continually subject to withering criticism.
Beliefs lie far outside of such worthy considerations. For some silly reason it is expected that foolishness be regarded with an unearned respect.
Science demands no such exclusionary clause. An idea stands or falls not on its popular appeal but by its efficacy in explaining current facts and by successfully predicting future facts.
It is readily observed that only one discipline of human endeavor can pull this off repeatedly.
I have not seen a response from Gerry though he may be posting one even now as I write this. If he can respond in any fashion I suspect that it will be hollow echoes of arguments long dispensed with. Nonetheless, let us wait upon him.
OWNED !
No fresh meat this evening, just a bronze wombat and an e-wail from someone named Gerry.
Mothra, you should have been here earlier. Jim Clueless In Vermont was a lot of fun. But it seemed that I played too rough and he run away. But you should have some laughs reading up on everything.
Alas, I must retire this eve, Mid-Atlantic early-riser that I am.
I think Gerry has been given more than enough substrate to act upon, should they decide to reappear. Still this little episode has all the hallmarks of Ben Stein's own pusillanimous tail-turning; a diminutive reflection, to be sure, of emblematic behavior of the unreasoning. A coda, if you will.
Queen of Assholes? Did I miss something? LOL
The best part of this is how the letter says he "will be unable" to attend.
Yeah, right. As though Ben Stein has something better to do. Owned.
I think Dawkins was gracious enough, and good for him.
Now, on Pharyngula I can say, you inbred moronic cock, where do you get off pretending Ben Stein is an expert on economics? Does he get that way the way pundits get to be experts on TV? FROM BEING WRONG ABOUT EVERY GODDAMNED THING HE'S EVER OPENED HIS MOUTH ABOUT?
sadly, yes. This is one expulsion i completely support.
Gerry is gone now, it seems.
For his small contribution
Has met dissolution.
His facts do not equal his dreams.
Yo! Gerry! Come back.
You've got something to say
And I'm sure that you certainly mean it.
In spite of your druthers
And the sermons of others
Who dictate what you certainly meant.
You drive by for a while
And though you may smile
Guys like me are lost
In you ferment.
More poor rhymes. Just a plea for substance, I guess.
Goodnight, Gerry, I suppose.
*anyone want to lay odds on his reply?*
This is ridiculous! You are going to bitch and moan about someone giving a commencement on the current economic crisis, because of his beliefs about human/non-human evolution?
This is crazy, and stupid. Just because a person does not know about one subject does not mean that they are clueless about another subject. Please explain to me how a knowledge of evolution is going to make someone a better economist! You are worse than the fundamentalist that you complain about so often. You are truly a group of sorry ass people. I guess I shouldn't expect much from your ilk.
Questioner, very simple in my mind. BS showed himself to be a liar and bullshitter in the movie Expelled. People who receive honorary degrees and speaker stipends should be people who you can look up to. When you are caught in as big a lie as Expelled was, there is no recovery. Stein is damaged goods until he either offers a public apology for the movie, or just retires.
Questioner,
Did you just decide you'd show up in the middle of a thread to display your profound ignorance, or did you actually try to read the entire original post and the comments (but still not even come close to grasping what the story here is)?
Here's a hint: it's about a lot more than economics and biology being unrelated fields.
Questioner, by the accounts that people are posting, Ben Stein is also bad at economics. It would have been nice if you actually read these links. Instead, it seems that you have your imagined stick you can use to whack at all of those bad evilutionists.
Trust me, no one has any concerns or cares about your charges, they have no merit. Instead, you gave most of us a good laugh.
Questioner claims, "This is crazy, and stupid."
Project much? Feel inadequate when asked questions that do not involve movies and singers and pop culture and invisible supernatural spooks? Gee, must be tough.
Listen man. I am not a mechanic, but I can fix your car. I am not a doctor, but I can save your life. I am not a scientist but I can . . . oh, never rmind.
I have fixed cars, saved lives and explained complicated things. Damn near wore me out. What can you do? Can you help me accommodate reality in my particular life? Do you dare try?
Waiting.
I guess I now have an ilk! cool.
Well, it looks like Ben Stein has signed on with a TypeKey account and posted here!
Questioner, why would Stein, considering his beliefs, want an honorary degree from a bunch of Darwinners anyway, or associated himself with Stalinist higher education in any manner?
Can't he handle a college crowd that isn't a bunch of extras, like the opening and closing scenes in Expelled? He ran away. We didn't do anything to him.
I once tried to milk
A cow for some ilk
But it always came out as a froth.
I squeezed and I pulled
As the cow softly mooed
And then Questioner
Brought forth my wroth.
Poetry is hard on a Superbowl Sunday. Is there a rhyme for gridiron? Cuttle! Help me now!
Intelligence is not measured by mastery of a subject or mastery of attendant subjects. Intelligence is measured by the ability to adapt to strange and unexpected circumstances. Something that religion cannot do sans schism. Go ahead, ask me. I went through one. And after the split was well defined I found no difference in either worship or fealty. Rather, the difference was purely in regard to human leadership. And that difference was no big deal.
Just one of the reasons I am fully apostate. Free and loving it.
It would appear that Stein has expelled Expelled, out of embarrassment. Question that, Questioner.
#110 woodstein 312
http://richarddawkins.net/article,3565,Poll-reveals-public-doubts-over-…
I guess it's the same poll. As the discussion at rdnet shows, it's highly doubtful that it's accurate. Customer: theist 'think tank'. Sample size: low. As commenters point out, the questions are such that can be easily answered falsely just by common ignorance, not necessarily fundamentalistic conviction. People are dumb, but half of Brits aren't fundies.
Questioner hocked up:
Read Waldrop's Complexity and then ask that question again.
@90
Hitler usually compared the presence of Jews in society as an infection or cancer. And he considered the solution to be similar to a microbicide or surgery.
This is excellent news. Hopefully, I shouldn't be waiting for the other shoe to drop.
Agree with Milo Johnson @ 23 - Stein's credentials as an economist are no more impressive than his cred as a biologist.
LEAVE MICHAEL PHELPS ALONE!
Geez, he's an exemplary American and athlete. Personally I'd rather see him smoke a little weed than be a drinker.
Better yet, he should use a vaporizer.
Ben Stein used to have an honest bone in his body - as far back as 1991 - when he made that TV film - Mississippi Burning http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0100209/
This joker churlishly kept PZ out of the movie hall, in return you guys got him disinvited from Univ. of Vermont. Just desert!
^I think maybe you meant that for the perez hilton comment section you have open in your next tab?
As much as I am happy that Stein won't get his fake degree or pollute the minds of students, I do have a question... the title says that Ben Stein backed out, which presumes that he initially accepted and then changed his mind, whereas the letter from the UVM President that "Mr. Stein will be unable to receive the honorary degree here or to serve as Commencement speaker", which seems to suggest that he was invited, but never accepted the invitation. That's not backing out, that's never accepting in the first place.
Granted, I think that expecting Stein to speak on economics is about as silly as expecting him to know anything about science, he's one of the people who went on record saying that the stock market would never fail and housing prices would keep going up, right up until the bottom fell out of the market entirely. In fact, all of the financial sector companies that Stein was pushing are out of business now.
Sure, I'd trust him to speak on economics...
NO!!! Moron. Stein slandered an important if obscure group of our society. The scientists. "Science leads you to killing." In case you haven't noticed, we are a Hi Tech society that was brought about by science. You know, medicine, cheap and abundant food, computers, cars, electricity, all that man made stuff you depend on for life.
Oddly enough, besides low pay and generally ignored by society, scientists objected to being called killers responsible for the Holocaust, Nazism, Commieism, and Bushism.
Stein knows as much about economics as he does about politics or science. About zero. His financial columns were all wrong and anyone who followed his advice lost most of their wealth.
The guy is the Paris Hilton of the intellectual community. Famous for being famous but one can't really point to any real accomplishments other than appearing in xian fundie science porn, Expelled.
@Tim Channel #25
Thanks for the headsup on the praying nurse, I read from the article that she had been warned previously for the practice so no sympathy. She seems to be the sort of xian who believes that the rules don't apply them when they want to shoehorn their god into things. Oh and thankyou for reading the Mail for me, I wouldn't normally touch it with a bargepole.
Jeanine#128,
"Questioner, by the accounts that people are posting, Ben Stein is also bad at economics."
Opinions was all they were. Stein is a frequent guest on business channels and programs. I haven't noticed him being "bad at economics", but he hasn't been particularly impressive either.
POKEY is a good name for a transposon, nice work whoever named it.
RobinSV @62 FTW.
Lsuoma @97, cool! I didn't know that was around...
This will be just more ammunition for Stein's paranoia:
"Darwinism had led to academic suppression. Anyone who questioned the orthodoxy of Darwinism was losing his job, getting harassed, losing his grants, losing his office, her office. This was not supposed to happen in a country based upon freedom of speech. I was very worried about that...".
Now he will portray himself as a victim of evil, all powerful darwinists: "I was expelled from UVM! Atheist Dawkins was the one behind the plot!"
Now wait for the updated version of the "Expelled" DVD, with a new bonus: Stein whining about his own case. By the way, would he have gotten any money for speaking?
Hitler usually compared the presence of Jews in society as an infection or cancer. And he considered the solution to be similar to a microbicide or surgery. - natural cynic
Ha! So it was those evil medics with their pernicious "germ theory" who were responsible for the holocaust!
I wish it had been titled "Stein pulls out"
Thus spake Questioner:
The whooshing sound was the point going over your head.
The point is that Stein is anti-science (“science leads to killing people”) and not only stands four-square on the side of those who would undermine science education, but made a propaganda film for them. He is a person to be reviled, not honoured, by any university worthy of the name.
Thus spake AfricanGenesis:
Being on television is not a warrant of competence. In Ireland, shill economists, muttering platitudes, representing banks and investment companies, were far more often on television than the few “naysayers”, condemned for “talking down the economy”, who were warning about an impending crisis. We don't need to guess who was right any more, and it wasn't the guys who were on TV every night. I wonder if it was the same in the US? I'd be surprised if it were much different, and certainly, I saw Stein laughing dismissively at the idea of an economic crisis a few months back.
Emmet, OM,
Africangenesis won't be judging whether Stein (or anyone else) is "bad at economics" on whether he actually makes successful predictions, or has the necessary factual knowledge to back up what he says, but simply on how far he endorses "libertarian" nostrums.
He has been at the University of Vermont before as a speaker:
http://www.uvm.edu/~uvmpr/?Page=News&storyID=12238
Then Africangenesis should think Stein is a terrible economist. This is after all the man who was upset with Paulson for not bailing out Lehman, thinks the global financial meltdown is a result of a conspiracy of traders, was in favor of a bailout of the auto industry and now thinks that a stimulus package including tax rebates to many who havent even paid taxes is an urgent necessity. None of those strike me as particularly in line with libertarian economics.
Stein came to UVM to give a lecture on economics last year, just after Expelled was released. He mentioned his film briefly and then said he wasn't going to talk about it. He got hammered in the Q&A section - but again refused to talk about it.
I found his lecture to be pretty grating and difficult to listen to. And wrong - everything he predicted was wrong. It was interesting, though, to see him in person. He's an old guy and I didn't feel the loathing I felt after watching Expelled. I felt pity instead.
I'm glad he's not speaking at commencement. He has no place in an academic institution - not after Expelled.
Re Ben Stein
Congratulations on what happened with Ben Stein.
Revenge is a recipe best eaten cold.
I have a niece at UVM. This is good news. Stein is a shameless liar and media whore. I wish him a long and happy life - out of the public eye.
Though this was hardly a victory of our protests -- my correspondence with President Fogel convinces me that Stein would have been invited despite our protests -- I must admit that I'm not disappointed by this news. Intellectual terrorists deserve no safe haven in our universities.
Ben Stein is a laughing stock amongst economists as well:
http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2008/05/new-york-time-5.html
And more recently:
http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2008/11/ben-stein-has-d.html
yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!
I got a personal response from Fogel @ UVM...
Just after the news broke on this blog i emailed UVM (with PZ in CC:) using the email address on the press release.
Someone in the newsroom was kind enough to forward it to the boss and i have just received a copy/paste version of what Dawkins got.
It was more than gracious of Fogel to write this to me from his personal email address and this has restored all my faith in his institution.
PZ and supporters (and Dawkins too) you all rock in a huge way.
President Fogel has indeed been more than gracious in taking the time to reply to so many. He deserves our appreciation and gratitude in return.
108
Actually , it depends on whose gotter are dammerunged-- the aesir are quite ticked off at Darwin, Young Earth Odinists insisting that since the world tree came first , and ash trees are eukaryotes , all lower strata fossils must be ringers planted by Loki to confuse the Narns .
Likewise, End Time Odinists think the evolution of wolves ominous, as
unleashing them could precipitate fimbulwinter nay day now ,
it was our expectation that his remarks would address the global economic crisis and that he would speak from his widely acknowledged area of expertise on the economy. We regret that he will be unable to do so.
Earth to UVM President: Ben Stein is a bigger economic crank than he is a biology crank.
Ben Stein: Please eat your hat: "Some bad columns only ripen to their true fullness of wrongheadedness after the slow passage of time. And so it is with Stein. Never mind the ostensible thesis of the column -- that Goldman Sachs runs the universe and was pushing dire forecasts of the economic future to boost their own trades. ... I dare say few got it wrong with such a tour-de-force of willful arrogance as Ben Stein."
Lectures on Frugality from Ben Stein: "Does anyone remember back in July when Stein told readers "we're dodging the worst?" How about the great piece from a bit over a year ago telling us about the "Chicken Littles" who were getting so worried over the problems in the subprime mortgage market. ... It is only people like Ben Stein who have the right to completely mess up on their job all the time and still collect a paycheck"
And so on. The UVM community just dodged a bullet, no thanks to their hapless and clueless president.
Great job Dawkins!
Also, for anyone who still thinks Ben Stein is an economics expert, watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I0QN-FYkpw
Maybe Ben will make a new movie: Expelled, No Economist Allowed!
Big picture puts a lot of it together, ironically just this week
No, that was one year ago, making the UVM Board's decision to invite Stein in the first place even more ridiculous. In 2007, Stein just looked like an economic crackpot. In 2009, he looks like a full blown economic Typhoid Mary. Invited to speak at UVM. By his friend the president.
... "he would speak from his widely acknowledged area of expertise on the economy ...."
He was kidding, right?
I wonder if the folks from UVM's economics department and business school were as appalled as the science folks were. Ben Stein is about as expert a money manager as he is a biologist.
Huzzah!
I think anyone who made a complaint deserves a pat on the back. I'm surprised that this happened, but thankful!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I0QN-FYkpw
Anyone who thinks that Peter Schiff Was Right should read Mish's Peter Schiff Was Wrong.
And just to prove the point that you can't find a decent economist or economics blog that doesn't express contempt for Ben Stein, here's Mish on Stein (from 2006!):
Global Savings Glut Revisited: "Ben Stein hopped on the "global savings glut" bandwagon today ... The simplest (and best) refutation to date of the silly notion that there is some kind of "Global Savings Glut" came today from Professor John Succo on Minyanville."
I got a reply email, too. How nice.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I0QN-FYkpw
Anyone who thinks that Peter Schiff Was Right should read Mish's Peter Schiff Was Wrong.
And just to prove the point that you can't find a decent economist or economics blog that doesn't express contempt for Ben Stein, here's Mish on Stein (from 2006!):
Global Savings Glut Revisited: "Ben Stein hopped on the "global savings glut" bandwagon today ... The simplest (and best) refutation to date of the silly notion that there is some kind of "Global Savings Glut" came today from Professor John Succo on Minyanville."
President Fogel just sent this out to the UVM community:
"I am writing to inform you that Ben Stein, a renowned economist and public personality, has informed me of his decision to withdraw from our Commencement ceremonies in May.
As you may know, Mr. Stein delivered an excellent Kalkin lecture on our campus last year, focused primarily on economic issues, to which our students responded warmly and enthusiastically. It was on the basis of that experience that I extended him an invitation to be our Commencement speaker.
Mr. Stein has also expressed opinions on subjects unrelated to economics, most notably with respect to evolutionary theory, intelligent design, and the role of science in the Holocaust. Those views are highly controversial, to say the least. Following the announcement of Mr. Stein as Commencement speaker, profound concerns have been expressed to me by persons both internal and external to the University about his selection. Once I apprised Mr. Stein of these communications, he immediately and most graciously declined our Commencement invitation.
We will identify another Commencement speaker in the weeks ahead. In the future, I plan to use a more consultative process to identify Commencement speakers who, as part of their involvement, receive honorary degrees from UVM as part of the ceremony.
In retrospect, I am sorry that I did not anticipate the breadth and intensity of the concerns expressed in this instance. Although I am firm in my belief—profoundly held—that, as a university, UVM is and must remain a marketplace of ideas, I also recognize that Commencement should be a time when our community gathers inclusively, not divisively, in full celebration of the achievements of our graduates, of the families who join us to honor them, and of the institution itself and our academic values as a scholarly, scientific, and creative community."
Compare:
and
You'd think they'd get their PR story straight -- was he too busy, or did he "decline", or was he actually "disinvited"?
I don't think he was disinvited. If he and Fogel are close, then Stein may have declined, as a way to be polite.
Of course, nobody really knows what happened.
I put the following on a more current thread, but I'll put it here, too (though here it's not OT):
I think he may have been asked to "decline" -- otherwise, why bother telling him about the controversy?
Mr. Stein delivered an excellent Kalkin lecture on our campus last year, focused primarily on economic issues
The UVM School of Business Administration undermines faith in its judgment by praising Stein's "financial acumen" in March 2008. From the Kalkin Lecture series:
who wants to help drop some knowledge on the bloggers at
http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?Category=pluck…
it is the local paper for burlington, VT and is getting a lot of anti-UVM comments for them pulling the plug on Stein. just need to register with an email and a password. Spread truth!
For the most part, The Guardian site does not require a subscription. And in any case, that article was published on Sunday, which means (technically) it was The Observer (which is vastly less reliable than The Guardian). The URL (no subscription required (to the best of my knowledge albeit I've been a regular The Guardian reader for over 20 years)) is http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/feb/01/evolution-darwin-survey-c…
A useful commentary thread on that Observer article is at Ben Goldacre's Bad Science site, http://www.badscience.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7626
Maybe UVM confused Ben Stein with his father Herbert who was a real economist.
That being said, I think that Ben Stein's great contribution to the field of economics was his exchange with Paul Krugman which resulted in this delightful smackdown: