Oh, no — more hysteria over Christmas from Bill O'Reilly, joined now by Gretchen Carlson, the blinkered bigot host of some other Fox program. The dialog is hilariously stupid.
Billo blows it early, claiming that Christmas marks "the birth of Jesus Christ, which is what the holiday is based on", which is simply not true. Midwinter festivals have a long history predating Christianity, and Christianity simply coopted this one, right down to the date and many of the pagan traditions that go with it. The name is taken from Christianity, but so what?
Then the two begin a duet of historical revisionism. Carlson is upset because public spaces contain a multitude of different displays, and she complains that her children won't be able to see "the thing I was able to see growing up", which seems to be a complete lack of diversity — the only displays she remembers seeing as a child were entirely Christian, and to her this is a good thing.
Billo claims "there was no controversy over Christmas … everybody said Merry Christmas", again as if this were a good thing, and completely ignoring that this controversy is one he invented. Yes, people said "Merry Christmas", and they also said "Happy Holidays"…and we still do. Even atheists.
I like Carlson's next suggestion, made while completely oblivious to what she is saying: "People can have their right to free speech, just don't pick December 25th to do it". Right. You can speak freely, except on 25 December, and, ummm, the days around Christmas, which nowadays spans the period from shortly before Halloween to sometime around New Year's Day. And Easter is off limits, too. And St Crispin's Day. And Shrove Tuesday. And Pentecost Sunday. Oh, and the Feast of the Sacred Heart of Jesus…
Oh, OK — you get 3 hours of free speech on the second Tuesday in July, at 2am, as long as you don't say it anywhere outside of your house. And only if you have a house — no poor people.
Billo makes a prediction: "They're going to try to revoke the federal holiday … you can't have a federal holiday based on religion". The first part is wrong, the second part is right. You can't have the state endorsing a religious holiday. However, atheists aren't at all interested in revoking our midwinter holiday, and I haven't heard of anyone lobbying to get the day off the calendar. We also have a clear-cut court decision from the federal judicial system, Ganulin v. United States. O'Reilly is going to be pained to learn this, but legally, he isn't getting Christmas off because he's a Christian. It's a secular holiday in the US.
Courts have repeatedly recognized that the Christmas holiday has become largely secularized. …By giving federal employees a paid vacation day on Christmas, the government is doing no more than recognizing the cultural significance of the holiday.
- Log in to post comments
And because the arbitrary Christmas date falls on a Thursday this year, federal employess also get St. Stephen's Day off. Or is it Boxing Day?
Maybe we can get a Christmas miracle this year: No more O'Reilly.
Intelligence isn't a requirement to be a talking head on TV...only volume is required.
She probably means separate drinking fountains for blacks and whites. Nostalgia is good, because the past is always better.
I see Bill-O is working on his Xmas ratings. I think all his christian fans look forward to this time of year to join in a bitchfest and play the persecuted martyrs.
What a fucking joke.
Oh, bloody hell. If she really wants her kids to see the things she was able to see growing up, let her do what some of my neighbors have done - put up a Nativity scene in her own yard. Or, you know, take them to church, seeing as how she's a good Christian and all.
I wonder if BillO serves Falafel at his Christnofuckingjewsallowedmas celebration?
I was at a restaurant that was playing Christmas music. '(There's No Place Like) Home For the Holidays' started playing, and every time Perry Como sang 'holidays,' some woman would loudly and forcefully sing 'Christmas'.
I can't believe the ignorance sometimes... What's gonna happen next? Well if people have any sort of reasoning skills they'll get all the displays out and never allow em again... Christian, atheist or otherwise.
Throw some lights and various other decorations up in recognition of the seculuar holiday season... and nothing more.
"and every time Perry Como sang 'holidays,' some woman would loudly and forcefully sing 'Christmas'".
Perry Como! I knew that lip-curling uber-hedonist was up to no good!
But the argument certainly gets amens from the mindless idiots who hang on every Fox News word. They'll tune in tonight for the next installment, and that is all Bill cares about.
The idea that atheists should play nice in order to win acceptance loses some of its force when one encounters the particular species of bigoted theist who makes stuff up to be offended by.
I may be wrong, but isn't Tom Flynn with CFI lobbying to make Christmas just another day? I thought I heard that on Point of Inquiry a few years ago. So there are some atheists that want Christmas taken off the books.
Personally, I live in northern Alberta and I wouldn't survive the winter without the holiday. It's so dark up here!
This "Bill'O esque" group are truly amazing. In a two minute span they can claim we are a Xian nation since 80% claim to be so and in the next breath claim to be persecuted.
Fun fact. I was given the OK in college by a nun with two PhDs (theology and history i think) to use "Xmas" since X (Chi) is the first letter of Christ. She loved talking about sex and killing in the Bible...She was my favorite professor.
You said this video was funny... FALSE.
The idiocy, bigotry, intolerance, and hypocrisy willfully and proudly displayed by the Blond Bimbo (no, not Anne Coulter this time) & BillO made me want to eat my monitor while beating the CPU with a festivus pole just to make it stop.
Seriously, no more BillO & the word funny unless it really is. PLEASE!
God rest ye Christofascist bigots, let nothing you dismay!
Truly an ambassador for the Prince of Peace, eh?
Paging Mr C. Dickens, Mr Dickens, Please send the Ghosts of Christmasses Past, Present, and Yet To Come to one Billy O'PutASockInItReally.
If Jesus doesn't like this, why doesn't he come down here and solve the problem himself?
I'm done. I used to watch Bill-O for laughs, but now I just get a headache.
Y'know, rational people, when presented with empirical evidence and/or factual information, rethink and adapt their positions accordingly - so Mr. OhReeaaally would not find himself under that particular descriptor despite his protests of how logical and rational he is.
My Christmas wish is for Bill, Sean and Rush to acquire critical thinking skills and free themselves from superstition and religious dogma. Since that won't happen, my schadenfreude wish is to hope, metaphorically, that their God sees fit to test them like Job. Oh, and add Billy from the Cat'lic league to that list as well.
I hope they all invested heavily with Madoff...
I think most theists intuitively understand that religion cannot hold under scrutiny. You start chipping away at some of the ideas and the whole structure would collapse. So they set up this notion of "respect" for their religion, which is just code for not criticizing it in any way.
What's getting BillO and Grinching Carlson really upset is they know that if other view points are allowed to be expressed, Christianity's monopoly on religion in the US is doomed.
To think, you pay for the "privilege" of having Mr. O'Reilly available.
Wow. I'm really not looking forward to debating this with my father when I get home for the holidays (he's a big fan of Bill O). And speaking of the Perry Como song...that was recorded in 1954. So apparently, people have been using this "holidays" word for over 50 years now. Imagine that...
Agreed. Sorry PZed but as the years go by and the War On Christmas/Christians/Whatever keeps coming around again and again this stuff stops being funny. Pathetic, annoying, insulting, dangerous, I'd accept any of those, but funny? Not so much. If millions of your fellow Americans weren't sitting there right now spraying spittle on their screens as they bark shrilly along with the Bill-O chorus then maybe...
Zealots accusing others of political correctness while screaming about how offended they are? Even I, Stupidity Assimilator, cannot assimilate that much stupid.
Wikipedia: "at age 21, where he taught English and history at Monsignor Pace High School for two years. O'Reilly later returned to school and earned an M.A. in Broadcast Journalism from Boston University (where he attended school with Howard Stern) in 1976."
'nuff said. This teaching nawlidge and stuff two hard for dis Catholic boy. Me makes more money doing easierest yelling in microphone like Howard duz.
Carlson is the kind of bitch that I'd like to rip the tongue out of. A complete insult and mockery, or as Bloviating Bill would say, disrespect.
Religion deserves no respect whatsoever. I hope Carlsons two kids turn out to be bigtime atheists. Maybe that'd make her head explode.
I think I used to say "merry christmas" fairly frequently but since the whole "war on christmas" hoax hit the airwaves, I make a studied point of only wishing happy holidays. Guess that makes me a convert; well done billo.
Sadly, O'Reilly and Carlson are evidence that stupidity isn't always fatal. I am perpetually astounded that these kind of people have managed to survive without higher level brain function.
People have long said happy holidays because it's shorter than Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
People who object to "Happy Holidays" are obviously anti-New Years Day.
What do they have against New Years Day anyway?
rp
I was born on Dec 25th. Imagine how I feel not getting to have my birthday on my actual birthday.
I've been told, by family, that my birthday is not as important as what the day is normally recognized for.
Not as important.
And they wonder why I hate Christianity so much.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Instead of saying "Happy Holidays", you should say "Merry Christmas but have a bad New Year", since it is apparently unacceptable to have more than one good holiday at a time.
I love how "Gretch" says (at about 2:50, cue Inigo Montoya), "I am absolutely abhorred that you're not upset by this." Yes, dear, you are absolutely abhorred.
That woman has made me feel physically ill. What? She'll have to TEACH her CHILDREN about DIVERSITY?
Why not just give them up for adoption NOW, you xenophobic airhead?
Billo claims "there was no controversy over Christmas ... everybody said Merry Christmas...
... and if you were a Jew, well, you just shut up and smiled because you knew you'd get your ass kicked if you pointed out that you weren't a Christian" is the portion of BillO's little reminisce back to the days of yore that these brave warriors in the War on Christmas always leave out. And many folks don't realize the anti-Semitic undertones (and overtones, for Grod's sake) of what these junior Fr. Coughlin's spew every year around this time.
Makes me ill, especially given that they're all celebrating the birth of a Jewish baby whose birth is only important because he grows up into a man who is ritually tortured and sacrificed to absolve them of sins foisted on them by their Creator. (you'd think that an all-powerful deity could forgive sins without having to have someone - even himself - bloodily murdered as a human sacrifice in one of the more humiliating ways possible, wouldn't you? Perhaps just a "you're forgiven" would suffice? Especially since he was the one who put the damn apple and the damn snake into that garden in the first place?)
what? no rabid defense of Gaga O'Reilly yet? (poor pun alert... )
I'm most impressed at how well the War on Christmas is going. Let's hope that this time next year we'll finally have the winterma festival abolished and all those christians back on crosses, where they belong.
(Jokes)
Why is it the only war these chicken haws ever fought in is The war on christmas?
#34: Because they could end up with (gulp) GAY FOSTER PARENTS!!!!!!
I had hoped from the beginning that it would get this crazy, precisely because it has caused a lot of my Xian friends to get all up in arms about it. The dialog that it has started has been an absolute joy to me, and I think it's been something of an eye opener for them.
Many of them wanted to argue that the nativity scene is not inherently offensive like the atheist sign is. I pointed out that both the sign and the nativity scene can be seen as simple statements of belief. The main difference is that the atheist sign is explicit where the nativity scene is implicit. The implied statement of the nativity scene is that God does exist in the form of the Lord Jesus Christ, and that anyone who does not believe so will burn in hell for all of eternity. That can be pretty damn offensive to a non xian.
Suffice it to say that I've spent hours debating with them over this, and I think I've actually made some real headway. I even got one to state explicitly that the nativity scene should not be displayed precisely because all of the other display must then be allowed as well...at least if the First Amendment is to be taken seriously. All because of the "insanity" of allowing just anyone to state their own beliefs.
Jesus isn't laughing, but I am!
@18"If Jesus doesn't like this, why doesn't he come down here and solve the problem himself?"
Because if Jesus ever does return to Earth he would never stop vomiting.
(Yes! Two Hannah and Her Sisters references within two days on the same blog! This counts as excitement for me!)
Hilarious post.
RATINGS=PROFIT
Pander to the spittle spewing religiotards with persecution complexes and baby gets a new pair of shoes. Despicable.
Luckily this will be the last Xmas.
http://applecanceledchristmas.com/
I actually gave Bill O the benefit of a doubt...right up until he continued to hang of Bush's balls even after no WMD's were found. Don't care to know what he's up to. Don't watch. Don't click. The advertisers of his show are pissing money down a boot trying to address me.
Enjoy.
I recall variants like "Happy Holidays" and "Seasons Greetings" going back as long as I can remember (which is to say, the early 60s). Heck, there's even a reference in the Sherlock Holmes canon to wishing someone "compliments of the season" -- which puts it back over a century. I wouldn't even notice or care what people wished me, except for these windbags making an issue out of it (though I would probably make an effort myself to use an alternate to people I knew were Jewish or whatever).
The other day I added my own salvo in the annual war on Christmas by greeting people with "Happy Solstice". Astronomical events are cool, and worthy of celebration.
I kinda assumed I might be thought to be a wiccan or some such, but then I realized probably 90% of the population wouldn't even know what a solstice is and the other 10% probably are rationalists.
HEY! Something I posted got recognition,*.*
I feel so special!!
*head swells* *POP*
Probably because none of the "enemy" will fight back...
Happy Saturnalia!
I see BillO began the tomfoolery early this year, as ever.
Well, it is fairly well summed up when she "complains" that she will now have to "explain" to her children just what an atheist is....OH, good grief....she might actually have to present a rational explanation to her offspring??? such a crime.
LOL...
I sometimes suspect some of the reason there's so very, very much noise over Christmas is they know very well, deep down, it really isn't their holiday. Wasn't in the first place--confusedly coopted, as it was, from a raft of assorted northern and possibly non-northern European traditions, including Yule--never fully became theirs, as the pre-Christian trappings have survived over hundreds and hundreds of years very, very well, thank you very much--and certainly isn't now, as the newer traditions that are growing up around the date are themselves not particularly related to Christianity either. It remains a glorious mishmash of everything to this day, probably in large part just because it is such a perfectly sensible time for anyone living in a cold, northern latitude especially, just to hang out, slow life down, party it up a bit while the days are so short that you might just as well.
And there's a certain kind of mind that hates that unescapable lack of 'purity' intensely. It's polluted, see--if you're not singing explicitly Dominionist hymns and explicitly praying to the right god when you're doing your midwinter thing, you're Doing It Wrong. But they also know damned well the very fact that they celebrate it when they do is that 'pollution'. And realistically, nothing's ever 'pure' enough for them--if they were to erase one perceived blemish, the next would just loom twice as large...
So there's the sects that once freaked out over Christmas trees (pagan symbol, sure, we know, and so what?), and there's the morons who loudly insist it must be 'Merry Christmas' and nothing else. It's all of the same morbidly puritanical root. And the truth is, there is no remedy for their anxiety. Were they to move the holiday to the middle of the summer and erase all vaguely pagan trappings and rename the damned thing just in case, they wouldn't be happy either, because then they'd have lost the rosy nostalgia they do associate with the current traditions about and which, if they're smart, they just don't think too rigourously.
So no, there is no cure for these people. For the rest of us, I suspect the best we can do is laugh at them with a little pity, as we frolic under the mistletoe, toast our toes by the fire, and refill our glasses.
I'm in no mood for teh Billy the Blustering Blowhard this morning and I refuse to watch it, but I know many who do. They amaze continually.
It's a character study to watch people systematically try to rid themselves of their innate aggressiveness and try to live their lives being like Jesus. The inherent dishonesty of the method backfires. All that pent up energy leaks out (in Blowhard's case, all over the airwaves) and they end up starting all kinds of wars (like the war on Christmas, for instance) (Or the war in Iraq, for instance) and then rationalizing their behavior as the will of a higher power.
I know lot's of people like that. They go to church, worship jesus and his lifestyle, pray to be good people--and inside they're smoldering for a good confrontation.
Trouble is, they have to channel their energy in only very specific ways. They can't be genuinely creative (because they're evil, and all their instincts are wrong and evil, etc.), they have to put a check on half of their emotions (cause half of their emotions are wrong and evil, etc.), and in the end they go stir crazy. A war on anyone who disbelieves offends their god is the easiest kind for them to rationalize.
Bill-o
ugggghch
somebody gimme a shoe
I was in CostCo the other day, waiting for my discount Starbucks cards. There was an older man (I was going to say "gentleman", but he ultimately failed that title) also waiting, and as casual conversation I mentioned that they always seemed to be swamped this time of year (I said "casual", not "intelligent" nor "original"). He commented that "they even couldn't manage to say Christmas anymore".
Having played left field in little league (poorly, if I say so myself), where his comment apparently came from, I reacted quickly and pointed out that the "Holiday Store Hours" sign he nodded towards did explicitly state "Christmas Day". He started saying something about the sign saying "Holiday Hours" and not "Christmas Hours" (even though the sign also had "New Years Day" hours). Luckily for me, the customer service person had just handed me my cards, so I just walked away in the middle of his delusional monologue.
There's been extended reporting this year of the sorry state of mental health care here in North Carolina. That man kind of proved it to me.
Bill: "Everybody said merry christmas"
Really?
When I came to this country in '72 everybody
seemed to say "season's greetings".
I was quite bemused by that.
Merry War On Christmas!
And a Happy GNU Year?
Thanks PZ, but no thanks.
I refuse to watch Bill-O the Clown as I refuse to watch anything on or about Fox "News". Ignorance, fear, bigotry, hatred and superstition (the five pillars of conservativism) just aren't entertaining anymore.
she might actually have to present a rational explanation to her offspring?
Well, that's just it. It's not like she's gonna be honest or accurate about what atheism is. Why is she upset at being given another opportunity to monger hate? Maybe it's too much like taking her work home with her.
*12
"The idea that atheists should play nice in order to win acceptance loses some of its force when one encounters the particular species of bigoted theist who makes stuff up to be offended by."
But they been a gilding the truth since jeebus was hung out ta dry but went cold instead!
How can you actually persecute the majority...?
But they love that martyr tag...do they not!
Is it possibly a fear of actually losing the 'war' with atheism/secularism?
So they are claiming foul before the results are in, seems so, loading the bases and hunkering on down before the storm finally hits but priming the legal pump in case they need it to fight the inevitable fire-storm...a case of well you never know and if push comes to shove they can claim 'well we warned everyone that Christianity was being repressed and persecuted'
I was watching that drecky Christmas movie, Polar Express, with my daughter last night and it occurred to me - there's not a single religious thought or theme in the entire movie. The whole thing is rooted in the old Germanic pagan and pagan Roman holidays. Santa Claus's namesake is an old Greek Christian saint but the character retains none of the Christian content or meaning and is probably based more on the Germanic god Odin.
Polar Express, as much as any of these Christmas shows, is a perfect refutation to the notion that Christmas is largely Christian. It is mostly not Christian. It is mostly Pagan. For religious people of course it's a Christian holiday, but if you just make a list of traditional Christmas traditions or memes (Santa, reindeer, yule logs, decorated trees), the vast majority remain, to this day, overwhelmingly pagan.
@58
You have to be careful with that. There's good gnus and there's bad gnus, and you don't want the bad gnus to be happy. Something's just...off about how they just stand there smiling and not blinking.
Gnus are freaky.
Gotta love Fox News revisionist history. I wonder if Bill Orally knows that Xmas wasn't even celebrated widely (or much at all) in America until the mid 1800s. Come on guys, do we really need to act surprised when Fox airs this kind of nonsense?
@62
You're not the first to notice that. When the movie came out Pat Robertson and his ilk were protesting it, saying it wasn't a true Christmas movie, and instead they promoted the Tim Allen/I forget who movie "Christmas With the Kranks" (or is it Cranks? I honestly don't care).
It all ties in with how Santa is a secular bastion of the Christmas spirit, which = EVIL!
You can look up video of a minister shooting Santa or check out this: http://tinyurl.com/4b2q6e
"Even more purposeless, more void of meaning, is the world which science presents for our belief. Amid such a world, if anywhere, our ideals henceforward must find a home. That man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his growth, his fears, his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought and feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all the labors of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system, and the whole temper of Man's achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins--all these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain that no philosophy which rejects them can hope to stand. Only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the soul's habitation henceforth be safely built." - Bertrand Russell
And a Merry Christmas would kill you?
Well, yes and no. Cooption or not, the Xian basis is what keeps many devout Jews from celebrating Xmas.
But the only basis for allowing Xmas to be officially celebrated in the US is that, as such, it is a secular holiday, and not a religious holiday. The moment the basis is claimed to be religious (and Billo's blather about how Jesus was a philosopher or some such thing is pathetic), it no longer can be celebrated by government.
Billo seems intent on effectively banishing Xmas as an official holiday. The fact that he apparently still doesn't understand this to be the case shows how bad he really is as a commentator.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/6mb592
I got news for O'l Bill there...Unless he's a practicing Catholic, he doesn't celebrate the mass of christ either.
1. Gretchen, about putting up that atheist pamphlet next to a nativity scene: "it's an insult to Christianity". Well, she's an insult to every rationally thinking human being - what a farce!
2. Gretchen: "Now I have to explain to my children what atheism [...] is". Yeah well, we know you're dumb but do you have to keep reminding us of your stupidity?!
3. Bill: "I believe in freedom of speech but without being disrespectful", and he continues: "she's an coward", "they're morons"
I've been wishing people, "Happy Thanksgiving" for the last week.
I get "WTF?" responses - and I explain that Thanksgiving lost out when Christmas started crowding it out in the stores and media. I'm only trying to help Thanksgiving get some of it's own back from Christmas.
Sure, it's geeky - but the response I get has so far been positive, and a couple of people have started doing the same thing.
Whole clip summed up: BOOOOO HOOOOOO! :(
I'm no expert on Billo, but I think he is a practicing Catholic.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/6mb592
Um, BillO is a practicing Irish Catholic. He taught English and history at Monsignor Pace High School for two years. He's as rabid a Catholic as Rudy Giuliani, and just as clueless.
Except that they don't know shit about the origins of their own religion, let alone the Christmas holiday. I used to be surprised how little the Jeebus-humpers know about their own faith, but now I figure that is why they need some red-faced hate-monger to scream it at them once a week. Studying and learning is not their strong point.
You are right, of course; it's not their holiday. But people who think the ancient Greeks came after Jeebus will never be able to understand that.
Why can't Bill and the rest of these idiots focus their hate and anger towards the real enemy, Emmanuel Goldstein?
Am I the only one here who doesn't think that Bill O is a complete idiot? I think that he may be of average intelligence but he's more of a Great Whore of Babbling than a dummy. He's also a very nasty tempered man, and that seems to be what his viewers love about him. That's the part that I find bizarre. It's like his followers and people who consider themselves to be "conservatives" seem to be childlike and tend to follow the bully. One difference I suppose with this crowd though is that they won't be happy until someone actually nails them to a cross. Persecution is kind of their fetish, isn't it?
And a Merry Christmas would kill you?
That depends on where and when, eh? How many have died for the sake of your "merry xmas"?
Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia
Thomas Jefferson letter to John Adams, August 15, 1820
so you see, not only is your philosophy utter nonsense, history has proven it a danger to civilized society.
I see a much brighter future being represented in these words:
Am I the only one here who doesn't think that Bill O is a complete idiot?
I think amongst thinking, rational folk, that calling someone an "idiot" is as much commentary about their obvious lack of responsibility for their words and actions as it is about their actual IQ.
"So what's next?"
Hopefully the realisation that even if you believe all the legend, Jesus was born without fanfare in a stable, spent his rather short life shunning crowds and publicity, as well as continually baffling his followers. If he were alive today he'd be amazed that a religion had grown up around his teachings, and he'd be even more astonished that this ditzy blonde fcukwit could presume to know exactly what he was thinking and feeling, not to mention believing that he was both one third and fully God, moron.
Ok so I just got home from a hard day, I'm in a bad mood, and then listened to that shite!
@Glen Davidson
I really like the information on your site (linked via your name), but could you have possibly made it any more difficult to read? Seriously, get a new format for that stuff..I couldn't get through it without a headache.
Frankly my dear I don't give a damn(about Christmas).
This just in (BREAKING>>>LOL):
The Santa Claus Delusion
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/timtimes/2008/12/the-santa-…
Enjoy.
No, Rush Limbaugh Is a Big Fat Idiot, Bill O'Reilly is a scarred pious blowviating ass.
And the lack of one would do the same?
If Jesus came back today he'd be accused of being a socialist and thrown into Guantanamo Bay.
Great Spirit is Charlie Wagner, back from the dungeon
Unless you count the whole "believe for the sake of believing" bullshit.
Interestingly, if you look at the etymology of "idiot", it refers to a private person, as opposed to a professional or one engaged in civic and community life:
Which makes certain libertarians on this board, with their Thatcherite insistence that there is no such thing as society, the biggest idiots of all, simply by definition.
Who said it would?
@ 74
Absolutely not, but they still recognize that their Jebus figurines are getting crowded out by Santa and his reindeer. When I was dragged to church on the xmas holidays, I can guarantee you that that hasn't escape their eyes.
Yeah, that's pretty much Bertrand Russell in a nutshell: let's all pander to other people's religious whims 'cause it's the nice thing to do.
Dolt.
Apparently, this nonsense didn't start with O'Reilly.
Max Blumenthal answered the question "Who Started the War on Christmas?" in an article on The Daily Beast website.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2008-12-09/who-started-t…
Blumenthal followed up with a few more details here:
Warning -- Huffington Post link:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/max-blumenthal/the-white-national-cabal_b…
He names Peter Brimelow as one of the founders of the Christmas outrage franchise, back in the 1990's. "On December 5, Peter Brimelow explained to me [Blumenthal] how he conceived the War on Christmas during the mid-1990's, then brought his crusade to the conservative movement." Brimelow used to be an editor at _Fortune_ and _National Review_. Then he started an anti-immigration website called VDare.com, which recently defended Brimelow here:
Warning -- white supremacist website:
http://www.vdare.com/piatak/081211_christmas.htm
O'Reilly is just the softer face to sell this war.
What's interesting is that Tom Flynn seems to have anticipated this project in his book _The Trouble with Christmas_.
Happy Crimble, everyone. May you all survive this Airing of Grievances.
I do not think highly of Mr. O'Reilly
(That's fine--he can do that himself)
And Gretchen's kvetchin' just pure leaves my retchin'
My guts out, the bleached little elf.
They do love the season, but don't know the reason
Their holiday comes in December
It was stolen from Norse, and from Romans, of course,
But these "journalists" must not remember.
These pinheads demand, but the Puritans banned
The observance of Christmas, you know:
True Christians could see that a creche or a tree
Was improper, and really should go!
So Gretchen and Billo, go purchase some brillo
And use it to polish your brains
So that maybe next year we can live without fear
Of your ignorant, selfish refrains.
I think that the majority of "Christians" out there feel the way about the nativity seen going up in the court house as the supreme court felt about the day itself: it is culturally significant, and has thereby become secular. In other words, to most christians, Christmas is a tradition which gives them something to do each year; something to look forward to, take some time off, gather w/family, exchange gifts, etc... Oh, and we may as well make a tradition about going to church and talking about some dude named Jesus and the circumstances in which he was born.
Are those two people ... flirting? That's ... disgusting. Excuse me while I lose my dinner.
I liked the pinheads.
"I have a sense of humour" - no, you don't, lady.
Which makes certain libertarians on this board, with their Thatcherite insistence that there is no such thing as society, the biggest idiots of all, simply by definition.
learn something new every day.
:)
Excuse my spelling. #94 should read: "...the majority of "Christians" out there feel the same way about the nativity scene going up in the court house..."
Cuttlefish-
professional class poetry, as usual.
I do hope it has become more than a hobby for you at this point; you certainly deserve more than just praise for it!
Around forty years ago I was taught that it would be very rude to wish a non-Christian a "Merry Christmas". For people of unknown religion or known to be other than Christian, the variants of "Season's Greetings" (as mentioned above) or "Happy Holidays" could be used. Safest of all (if late enough in the year) is just "Happy New Year".
That is what bothers me most about the "Say Merry Christmas" ranting, the blanket assumption that all the people being wished merriment or happiness are Christian. It acts as the default position. Everyone else is just a negligible non-entity. How on earth could you be insulted by being wished season's greetings or happy holidays? Happy holidays, pick whatever ones you want and be happy, and if you've got none or just one enjoy any days off work.
How is it possible to have these long discussions without every mentioning the separation of church and state?
my pleasure.
back atcha! :)
good to see you back, Ichthyic; we've missed you!
However, atheists aren't at all interested in revoking our midwinter holiday
Um, speak for yourself. Revoke away, I say. I can't stand Christmas and would really rather not do it year after year. I can't even just not celebrate it, because even if I cut all ties to my family (who compel me to celebrate out of filial duty), I'd still have to deal with Christmas decorations in stores, the same damn shitty eighteen Christmas carols being played on the muzak in every public space, annoying Christmas-crazed shoppers in every commercial area with their terminal cases of the me-firsts, obnoxious Salvation Army mendicants, and that fucking busker who plays trumpet downtown in my hometown every year around this time, who couldn't keep time if it walked up to him and put its leash in his hand. Et cetera. (And while we're on the subject of vomitous holiday music, holy hopping squid, folks, there are hundreds if not thousands of Christmas carols; could we maybe explore more possibilities than merely the gamut between "O Come All Ye Faithful" and "Santa Baby"?!)
I'm quite firmly of the opinion that people should celebrate Christmas much the same way as Jews celebrate Purim -- unless you're a Christian or an interested observer, there's no fucking reason whatsoever you should even know when, where, or how it happens.
Keep it to yourselves, you culture-dementing bastards, and wash your hands after you finish.
I don't say "merry Christmas" much because I feel silly using the word "merry". It's not a word I use in any other context, unlike "happy", so it feels very forced.
It's a simple case of backward chaining: they start out by being insulted, then work backwards looking for data to support that state until they've found (or, if necessary, invented) it.
I think you missed the point of that. Do as you like with Christmas but leave us our federal holiday at the end of December.
That's what bothers them about not saying it: it makes it not the default position and everyone else not a non-entity.
"Whole clip summed up: BOOOOO HOOOOOO! :("
Yes, sounds like the waaaahmbulance going by.
"No, Rush Limbaugh Is a Big Fat Idiot, Bill O'Reilly is a scarred pious blowviating ass."
I think we're splitting hairs here.
"Well, it is fairly well summed up when she "complains" that she will now have to "explain" to her children just what an atheist is"
'You mean they don't have to go to church or Sunday school? Cool! I wanna be an atheist too!'
No kidding. In fact, make Christmas Eve, Boxing Day, the day after Thanksgiving, and Halloween federal holidays too. I could use more breaks.
here's another one for Great Spirit Charlie Wagner to ponder:
-- Herbert Spencer, "What knowledge is of most worth?" in Essays on Education and Kindred Subjects (J.M. Dent, London, 1911).
Ichthyic, re: Cuttlefish...
*Ahem*
No Rey, it was a reference to Al Franken's book Rush Limbaugh Is a Big Fat Idiot. I was humorously pointing out that Rush already claimed the title & then I used O'Reilly's self coined "bloviate" and his tendency to cry "bully " reflexively. Man, it just kills it when you have to explain the joke.
Good old Bill O'Riled is POed again. The poor man's afraid the big bad atheists are going to take his holiday so he has to scream wolf. (And he knows from screaming.) And let's get out the violin that Gretchen Carlson used to win the Miss America Pageant years ago. She certainly knows how to whine. Oh, my poor babies might have to learn what an atheist is because of that mean woman in Olympia.
Poor Bill. He needs some cheering up. Let's all pitch in and get him a new cross for Christmas. I'll buy the nails.
It this week's episode of "The Big Bang Theory", Sheldon explains it all.
"Courts have repeatedly recognized that the Christmas holiday has become largely secularized."
Which is odd, because the reason it started in the US is because of the Christian traditions of most of the invaders into the USA. Although it may be now secularised, it has its roots in the Government favouring Christianity, thus sure flawed from its inception. I urge all Phayngulites to boycott the entire Christmas period- refuse to give or accept presents, don't decorate with bows of holly, and treat the 25th as just another day.
Even though the date is stolen by Christianity, it was stolen from other religeons, so the date is still a worship date. And make sure you get rid of Santa Claus, a man whose roots go to an attendee of the council of Nicea, where the date of Christmas was fixed.
And, while you're at it, remove the slightest bit of enjoyment from life if it could be even tangentially related to some religion somewhere at some point in history. Whee.
"Although it may be now secularised, it has its roots in the Government favouring Christianity"
Typical Xian spin..now if you had said, "recognizing Christianity" I would not complain ..but you had to slime it up by using "favouring" didn't you....as in choosing it above all others....you really suck.
While we're still on this subject...
Can the Christ Mass ceremony be described as "merry"?
It's been decades since I've been to one. From the outside they don't seem to be anything other than solemn, and possibly self-congratulatory. But I haven't been to a Christmas since I was a kid and I honestly don't remember. Can any of you folks update me on this?
And, Last Hussar at #115, Happy Solstice to you. Remember: 23 degrees is the Reason for the Season, and its effects apply to everyone on Earth.
What it was it ain't no more. Deal with it.
and thus made better.
even if true (and it isn't), immaterial because it doesn't mean that now.
Nope, made better by dumping the oogie-boogie bullshit and keeping the stuff worth saving.
Assuming your opponents position are the most irrational they can be is not a good way to win an argument.
Not no more it ain't.
blah, blah, blah. Just another bleever pissed that we won't let him tell us how to celebrate our holiday. And yes, Captain Obvious (or should I say "Oblivious"?), I am well aware that the origin of the word "holiday" comes from "Holy Day". Like I said, what it was, it ain't no more.
Wow! I've never watched Fox before (being an Englishman, and without any form of subscription television package). I'd heard it was mad, but that was screamingly funny madness. Perhaps I could watch a few minutes of that stuff every day for the comedy value? No, I'm sure the novelty would wear off very quickly and have me putting my boot through the screen instead.
The general thrust seemed to be "it's an insult to xtians" and "don't these people have any respect for us?"
Is that rather politely worded sign in Olympia an insult to xtians? Maybe. If xtians want to perceive it that way then that's fine, I don't mind. Equally I could quite easily perceive their silly make believe nativity scene as a bit of an insult to my intelligence. Ho hum. Come to think of it, I live in a country wherein church leaders (i.e. blokes in silly dresses with even sillier views) get to voice their opinions about local and world affairs on the television news for no better reason than they sometimes wear silly dresses and hold some bizarre beliefs about a middle eastern carpenter's son who was born a couple of thousand years ago. If I want the opinion of somebody who sometimes wears a silly dress I'd prefer Eddie Izzard's, thank you very much.
The next part is more interesting: "don't these people have any respect for us?".
No.
I don't.
At least not for your silly make believe, sky fairy, stomp on science, fuddle my child's mind, blinkered, one true way, don't have to pay tax views which somehow clamour for a degree of misguided respect that none of us thinking people can expect in return.
So there.
Mark.
See, where I'm from, 'merry' is usually used in the same context as 'tired and emotional'.
From Canada
There is a war against christmas led by the urban upper middle class largely influenced by the out of proportion Jewish influence. jews and non Jews see christmas as a identity issue and its being secular is beside the point. yes for most its Santa and not Jesus. notwithstanding thats the rib. its not jewish. this time of year shows the truth of a vast majority of people who have a non jewish identity. the rest of the year one would think it was 50/50 in population because of jewish influence at the top.
so a decision was made everywhere Ho, Ho, Ho, Christmas has got to go. instead some general Holiday idea where christmas is just another cultural event. Yet in real life it fails because of numbers and the great story of American Christmas season. So a greater aggression to ban the word Christmas and its images is underway in the establishment especially the big cities. Not just Adam Sandler but heaps of hostiles.
i'm pretty sure I've seen David letterman refer to the tree on his stage as a holiday tree.
This irish catholic o'reilly guy is fighting for Christiandom, christmas and its memmories to our souls, and America. I sense its catching on.
Include Hannuka but don't exclude Christmas to equalize what is not equal.
For jews in america everyday is Christmas at this point in history.
@87: Yes, you're correct, I forgot about that, but I remember being really kind of repulsed by that thought. I wasn't paying much attention and can't say whether the "just believe" nonsense referred to Santa Claus or was a veiled reference to religion, but either way, it was offensive and stupid. Santa is a harmless lie that I allow my daughter to believe in, but once she's figured it out? My god, telling her to keep believing in it - to turn off that flickering part of her brain that's telling her, "hey, this is bullsh!t" - that's child abuse! "Just believe?" Gag.
People who don't know what words mean shouldn't bitch about them getting banned.
That means you Byers, you dumb, ignorant, fuck!
Move the Caymans, you right-wing douchebag. You're not a real Canadian.
Brownian,
Truly from Canada.
hehe... Byers you're a deluded fool.
And you're a bigot. Probably a conspiracy theorist too.
No one is trying to ban anything you idiot.
Wow. Robert Byers, that was quite a pantload. I see you evacuated your bowels over on the Obama invocation thread, then I come over here and smell the same dank stink.
Nice work, freak.
I think we found the dad who thought it wise to name their kid Adolph Hitler.
Adolph Byers wasn't enough for you?
someone at the old-folks home needs to take Byers' keyboard privileges away.
I think he's been avoiding taking his meds again.
Hey E.V. #111,
Please don't give O'Reilly credit for bloviate. He didn't coin it. I used to like the word, but O'Reilly's ruined it for me.
Keep Saturn in Saturnalia! ;)
Blaming the Jews is soooo 12th century (as well as 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th & 20th)
Move [to] the Caymans
ignorant question:
why?
Are the Cayman Islands filled with insane bigots who refuse to take their meds?
Reginald Selkirk @ #4:
Actually, Gretchen Carlson is from Minnesota. In fact, she was Miss Minnesota 1988, on her way to becoming Miss America a year later.
I think P.Z. should be ashamed that this moron hails from his (adopted) home state. As a Minnesotan myself, I know I am.
Oh man, I love it when she says Jesus isn't laughing. That is priceless.
Also her terror of having to explain to her children what atheists are.
Oops, my bad. He just hijacked it.
Yo, Byers. I hope some Israeli baaaadass MoFo decides to perfect his t'aint kicking technique on you. (with a nod to the Rude Pundit)
yeah... except not really. The American Christmas has from the very beginning been an excuse for Middle and Upper Class parents to spoil their children without feeling guilty. It was from the beginning a family-oriented holiday, and most churches didn't even have a Christmas service until after the Civil War. The focus was ALWAYS more of giving your kids gifts, and on Santa
Do I detect the faint aroma of Poe around Last Hussar @115?
It is the nature of the Poe that one can never be sure. But it's definitely a Poe-ish bouquet.
No, but the Caymans are a kind of promised land for right-wing Canadians due to their extremely low taxes (and I suppose, ease of emigration for commonwealth citizens.)
Plus, they occasionally get hit with hurricanes, which will hopefully speed up Byers' ascent to a land without Jews and atheists (but otherwise multicultural, according to the cover art on the latest edition of The Watchtower.)
No, but the Caymans are a kind of promised land for right-wing Canadians due to their extremely low taxes (and I suppose, ease of emigration for commonwealth citizens.)
hmm, aren't they still classified as "offshore" as well?
meaning any monies invested there are untouchable?
Can I just say: I LOVE the title of this post, somehow I never heard the phrase before :)
Haha, Bill actually thought she talked sense into her co-hosts? Must have missed what they said between his faps.
So the jerks resent "Happy Holidays" huh? Not religious enough? OK, as an experiment, I'm going to start saying, "Have yourself a very gay Christmas!" just to see what kind of reaction I'll get. Do you think they might find something offensive in that innocuous statement?
They want an end to political correctness?
Seriously?
Christians have far more to gain by upholding political correctness than atheists. If the gloves were to come off, people like that news anchor would make a total mockery of themselves while all sat back and watched.
Bill O'Reilly (supposedly Roman Catholic) ought to learn about the real Juedo-Christian heritage of America. The "culture wars" are really a doomed struggle to maintain Protestant cultural dominance. Fittingly, freedom and the free market have failed to secure their majority. Consequently the "cultural conservatives" turn to government to protect their position. This is how one influential theologian laments:
I guess I could see where Christians could interpret the atheist sign as an attack (you know. . . Christianity being a religion and all), but how does Festivus become worse? Hadn't they said the atheists could just put up whatever they wanted? Festivus is a fine, positive holiday.
And while Christians pushed for it to be "secular" so they could make it a federal holiday, they want to turn around and say the "reason for the season" is their JC. They do galling hypocrisy quite well.
And, again, I'll note that the teacher who told her students that Santa doesn't exist was fired. Somehow, a fair number of teachers think it's perfectly okay to tell the students, even in strong unequivocal terms, that Santa does exist.
FrodoSaves #143 wrote:
Indeed. While it may be "politically correct" to acknowledge the existence of many religions, it is also "politically incorrect" to criticize religion.
So, because of the sign, women will have to explain to their children what 'atheism' is?
Score!
He's eagerly awaiting his Christmas falafel/loofa thing.
The winter holiday season has always been secular, and the popularity of Christmas seems to have little to do with Christianity: Christmas trees, stockings, gifts, reindeer, (much of) the Santa Claus myth. All of the controversy stems from people's willful, reactionary ignorance, which incidentally makes for great modern television where you hold the audience's attention briefly for a moment of outrage then move to the next topic.
Lets see- I make a number of accurate statements, and take them to logical extremities, and the first two answers I get are insulting in tone and sneering in content. The counter-arguements were no existent, relying on "It isn't now" and a number of assumptions, none of which have any facts presented to support them.
25th of December has no meaning if you take away the religeous roots- it becomes another way for big business to sell stuff (cf Fathers Day, Secretarys day etc). It isn't a 'natural' milestone such as the shortest day, nor does it have any particular man made connotation, such as New Year, where celebrations are a symbolic rebirth. I say again, its is the 25/12, not 23/2 because of religeous dictat. The greed associated with modern 'Holidays' (Thank you USA for more bastardisation of our culture) upsets the Poet in me.
Dr K- many of the traditions are religeous- just not Christian. For instance bringing evergreens into the hall is Germanic pagan (Odin/Wodin/Wotan etc)
25th of December has no meaning if you take away the religeous roots- it becomes another way for big business to sell stuff
if it's a way for business to increase sales, then it has meaning.
Yay for the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade... or something.
you seem to automatically discount secular value as "meaningless".
which was kind of the point to at least a couple of the responses to your post.
Thank you USA for more bastardisation of our culture
um, whose culture?
December 25th was the winter solstice on the Julian Calender.
its is the 25/12, not 23/2 because of religeous dictat. except of course where it's celebrated on 24/12, or 07/01
point is: the day is arbitrarily set as a holiday. it's named after a christian holiday, it has a lot of pagan traditions, but at least in the U.S. it is and has always been a family holiday and an excuse for shopping first, a religious holides second, trailing far behind.
Just because something was once religious doesn't mean we're obliged to keep it religious to retain it - or that by acknowledging it we're admitting the underlying religion is real or true.
Any number of things once had religious significance but now don't - days of the week, for example. I don't see christians demanding we change Thursday because it honours Thor; nor do I see anyone arguing that because everyone (christians included) in the English-speaking countries still call it Thursday they're admitting to the existence and relevance of the hammer-wielding thunder-god of the Norse pantheon.
Oh dear, Byers is here again.
Was he wearing his white bedsheet with the eye holes cut out when he posted that?
O' Reilly: You were born in Minnesota, right?
Carlson: EXACTLY! (around 6:39)
When every syllable drips with that kind of conviction, how can logic and arguments of constitutionality compete?
It seems like every utterance refers to the status quo or some better time in American life. What you're hearing is various retroviruses emerging from the DNA of the two host-bodies, causing their mouths to flap.
Oh please! STOP THE WHINING!
The poor lady has some explaining to do. BOHOHOOOO! How convenient it was for her to indoctrinate her poor little kids. Now she has to explain Atheism to them! OH NO the DEVIL is going to it the poor little chidren's brain!!!
"... she [Gretchen Carlson] complains that her children won't be able to see 'the thing I was able to see growing up'..."
Similarly, Gretchy C grew up without experiencing the various holiday celebrations and traditions that previous generations of Americans and Europeans have enjoyed... yet she STILL managed to come out with cheerful childhood memories. Isn't that curious?
If history tells us anything it is that the holiday that we presently call "Christmas" has undergone a great deal of cultural evolution. What makes folks like Bill-O and Gretchen Carlson so pathetic to me is that they refuse to acknowledge that this evolution has taken place, and that it will continue on despite their best efforts to find the "pause button."
Last Hussar #149 wrote:
The "roots" that feed Christmas are not theological, but humanist: caring and sharing with others; appreciating beauty and warmth in the cold; food and fellowship, peace and love -- and good will. Different religions may try to co-opt these ideals, but there's no supernatural element here. They're purely of this world. We all "own" them, as part of our human heritage.
So have a Merry Christmas, Last Hussar. Anyway.
Sorry, but I just had to do this. It amuses me too much. Yes, I even went after what should have been hyphenated.
#122 quoted:
That was delicious. I think I might start doing that more often.
How 'bout this: When any xtian evangenital asshat insist we say 'Merry Christmas' instead of 'Happy Holidays' we just smile and say 'Perhaps you misunderstood. What I really meant is F@@K YOU!'
I think I might start doing that more often.
I dunno, you might make yourself sic.
:p
And here is another comic character with his Christmas message:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeffrey-feldman/the-painfully-unwatchable…
Is this real ? Or is he going insane ?
Me @160, it's correct to use "its", it's the third person singular possessive adjective. It's also correct to use "everywhere" as an adverb.
Billo's a fucktard. News at 11.
I'm "stuck" watching Billo at work. A lot of belivers there. As mentioned in a previous post, I used to laugh at his idiocy but now watching Bill is NAUSEOGENIC. He isn't worth the air time. Thank goodness the Simpsons throw darts at FOX every once in a while, save me the effort.
Ah, I did apparently get a little overzealous with 'its' so thanks for pointing that out. Nobody's perfect I suppose. I'll be more careful next time. :)
My problem wasn't actually with the 'everywhere' but with the lack of punctuation following it. I was just taking a lazy slacker way of showing it.
Cheers!
No, you didn't.
You took them to absurdities and then used them to make a point as if it meant anything.
Because that's all your "argument" deserved.
That whooshing noise was the point going straight past your head.
You can argue that Christmas originated entirely from Christianity till the cows come home and it won't support the claim that it's the only way it should be celebrated now or discarded entirely. A vast number of things have their origins in religion but are no longer religious observances. Hell, our calendar comes from Christianity (Anno Domini) but that doesn't make everyone who uses the convention Christian, nor does it mean people who aren't Christian shouldn't use it. All it means is that we agree on an arbitrary starting point for convenience, regardless of where that starting point was originally derived. Like I said, keep the useful stuff and dump the oogie-boogie bullshit.
An argument to absurdity isn't valid if you start with an absurd premise ie. that all things with religious roots should be discarded entirely by those who aren't religious. Baby, bath water, fail.
Just more proof that Billo is a pompous ass, and a stupid pompous ass at that.
The one and only 'root' of Xmas is cosmological: the Solstice. In a funny way, it's a tribute to the psychological principle of (Piagetian) "object permanence," since it celebrates the "return of the sun." It's a big deal, actually.
Gretchen Carlson's claim to fame is being Miss America 1989. She is from Anoka, MN. Since the city of Anoka is 93.15% white (per 2k census)*, I'm not suprised at her views. Can we say sundown town?** Michelle Bachman is also from Anoka.
*= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anoka,_Minnesota
**= http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2007/01/eliminationism-in-america-vii.html
Regarding midwinter festivals: a Roman mystery cult that worshiped Mithras, a sun god, was extremely popular in the Roman army circa 300 AD. Members of the Mithraic cult worshiped, and held what were probably pretty wild parties, to celebrate the winter solstice, which was of course when the god Mithras began his return to the sky. Anyone who wanted to convert the Roman army to some nominal form of Christianity probably knew that it would be far easier if midwinter festivities didn't have to be given up, as woud be the case if Jesus' birth were celebrated in July.
We should all remember who actually started this 'war'
Racist white nationalists of course!
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2008-12-09/who-started-t…
Odin is the reason for the season
Have a Glorious Yule
To those who gave polite answers- Thank You. I didn't know about the Julian Solstice- though I now know understand why that date was stolen.
To the rest of- Thank you all those aggressive American Atheists who give the rest of us a bad name. Posts on here complain about Richard Dawkins being over aggressive in his TV shows, yet he never resorts to name calling.
A special shout out to TSG, who watched me dig the pit, watched me cover it with leaves, watched me put up the warning sign ("Take it to its logical extremes"- Short of making every third sentence "Reductio Ad Absurdum" what did you need?), read the warning sign (and I am particularly proud, by the way, of the phrase "the POE-t in me- geddit!), and then he/she jumped up and down on it to prove I'm an idiot.
I person accused my original of a Poe- it wasn't meant that way, because I wasn't trying to parody- I didn't mention or promote any form of god. (And I never threatened everlasting damnation, but if it makes you happy: "Ha, your TV will only show episodes of 'Friends' if you don't agree with me"- That Hellfire enough?)
It is just that over the past few years I am becoming dissatisfied with what Christmas is- a giant greed feast. Oh, and I doubt Christmas in the US was always commercial first, religion second. Maybe since WW2 it has become that way, but I doubt the average US family in 1903 were wondering what the latest gadgets were. Why do we all feel we have to spend large amounts of money on a load of stuff- much of which is not wanted and will never be used? You wouldn't expect your aunt to give you a hideous Hawaiian shirt in June, so why do we pretend, and act all pleased about getting a hideous pullover in December? 25 December is effectively meaningless, apart from the fact we have been conditioned by those who rely on selling tat that it must be bought. (On the other hand 23 Feb is my birthday- the one that starts with For... so anything that will ease this much appreciated!).
I'd like to see a real effort to re-orientate the whole thing towards a community/family side, rather than blatant commercialising of someone's faith. I'd move the whole thing to New Year's eve/day- a time to celebrate the past year, and look forward to a fresh year. I realise Christmas is this in a way, but wouldn't New Year make more sense? And Yes, 31/12-1/1 is artificial, but you have to chop the year somewhere. Shall we campaign for years to end on the mid-winter solstice- seems a poetic (with out the Poe this time) balance to it, as the days start getting longer. (Antipodeans will have to accept the tyranny of the majority on this one).
As to Thursday- Find out what Germans call the day before Thursday. Then consider why ;-)
So is there a chance that Billo will get PZ (or someone nearly as eloquent) to give the other side of the debate?
If saying "religion is enslaving minds" is an insult, then I'm insulted by the notion that I need "saved".
Last Hussar,
What?
Sunday. (literal [Sun]).
Monday. (moon day [Moon]).
Tuesday. (Tyr's day [Mars]).
Wednesday. (Woden's day [Odin] [Mercury]).
Thursday. (Thor's day [Jupiter]).
Friday. (Freyja's day [Venus])/
Saturday. (Saturn's day [Saturn]).
We know all this. What's your point?
Me @167, I don't really blame you. Had you tried to address the the grammar, or worse yet, the fractal wrongness of the apprehension and semantics evinced by that post, you'd still be writing! ;)
I just like to quibble.
German Wednesday - Mittwoch (midweek)?
John, you didn't answer my question correctly (GERMAN for Wednesday), therefore you missed my point. It is, as Mark says, Mittwoch. So why?
Because Odin/Woden/Wotan worship was still widespread enough, and refusing to die, amoung the Germanic tribes who had been 'Christianised' that the name was forcibly changed as one of the measures to stamp out the practice. I was responding to post 153 about "Why don't Christians change Thursday?"- They changed Wednesday! Other places where Odin didn't cling on kept the original name.
Another cultural example is the eating of horse meat. Just isn't done in Britain, where as places like France there are specialist butchers. Why? Eating/sacrificing horse was a part of prechristian Anglo-Saxon practice. It was therefore something that was stopped by the missionaries.
Stealing/Appropriating festivals is a Roman habit- look at the spa town of Bath. Dedicated to Sul by the Britons, the Romans turned up and said "We have a water Goddess- Minerva, you have a water Goddess- Sul. Must be the same Goddess! Lets dedicate the spa to both!"- How to conquer with out getting shoes thrown at you! I have a suspicion that part of this using established festivals was inherited from the Roman side of the early church rather than the Christian side.
Last Hussar @181, I did miss your point - perhaps it was too subtle?
That said, Wowbagger's point was that cultural traditions are subsumed by subsequent ones, not that traces of that process don't remain.
As Wowbagger wrote @153, "Any number of things once had religious significance but now don't" - granting your explanation, that still includes the historical reasons for the name change - it was a religiously-significant event, but now it isn't.
You wrote:
Well, what it was and what it is change as culture changes. You will either accept Wowbagger's point or continue to fruitlessly rail against reality.
John Morales,
I'm really not sure what point Last Hussar is trying to make, or even if he's trying to make one; he's all over the place like - as the saying goes - 'a mad dog's breakfast'. Fruitlessly railing against coherence and reality.
I was going to reply rudely but I won't.
Simply put Christmas now seems to be just another 'Love Day', the fake holiday on the Simpsons invented by greeting card execs who wanted to sell more stuff.
I would hardly say I was incoherent.
And yes, I know that I am fighting against reality. Why is that a bad thing- perhaps there should have been more fighting against 'reality' a few years back when were were all being told how wonderful the new economics was, and why it was bad to regulate it. The reality I am railing against is the man made one, not the one that real scientists (like PZ) investigate.
My reading of all your answers is Christmas seems now to have no meaning other than to celebrate the secular holiday. We are celebrating celebrating it! We could also call it "Making toyshops enough profit for 2 months to keep going because they operate nearly at a loss for the rest of the year Day".
In fact, so much of the non-essential purchases happen due to Christmas in November/December, that if it wasn't a big greed event, then the commercial economy would be seriously damaged.
Why are atheists celebrating it?
Speaking only for myself, because it makes my daughter happy and it's pretty much the only time I get to see my brothers anymore.
There's also Sierra Nevada Celebration Ale.
Alternative answer: why not?
Last Hussar,
1. I read those answers differently - that Chrismas has different meanings to different groups.
2. That sounds about right.
3. Agreed - Holidays and celebrations are cultural realities - though some real scientists (anthropologists) do investigate them.
I personally don't celebrate Christmas - I endure it (I suppose days off work are allright, though). Nor do I acquiesce to the social pressure of having to send cards, or give presents, or engage in forced bonhomie just because it's a particular season or day of the calendar.
Which is not to say I'm against Christmas or other holidays, I'm not "at war" with them ;)
John- hence my suggestion we move the whole thing to New Year, break with the mythic elements and have a proper Humanist holiday on what is actually a 'significant' date to most of us.
Though lets face it, if someone is brewing a decent beer because of 25/12 then that's ok with me too!
(my 12 year old said he would be happy just to have a family Christmas, though when pressed agreed he wouldn't refuse the Christmas presents if offered!)
Last Hussar @187, that's the spirit!
You're ahead of me, I have no children (by choice), and you're in the happy position to provide yours with a good perspective on this issue.
Happy monkey!
Bill-o will be glad to know that this side of the Atlantic, despite being less religious, the phrase Happy Holidays is never used (well apart from Gap and Coke).
It's Merry/Happy Christmas and it doesn't bother anyone, not even atheists. We don't even have an alternative word we can use for it either - 'Holidays' are what we do in the summer.
On second thoughts I'd better be quiet about this, I don't want Bill-o coming over here