The Catholic League is preparing a stake for me. They're going to go straight for the jugular and threaten my job — notice how they repeat that you can access my post from my faculty page, nicely avoiding the fact that the post they find so offensive is not hosted on any university server, and that they are urging everyone to harass the president of my university and the regents and the Minnesota legislature. Extortionists and witch hunters, that's all these scumbags are.
Paul Zachary Myers, a professor at the University of Minnesota Morris, has pledged to desecrate the Eucharist. He is responding to what happened recently at the University of Central Florida when a student walked out of Mass with the Host, holding it hostage for several days. Myers was angry at the Catholic League for criticizing the student. His post can be accessed from his faculty page on the university's website.
Here is an excerpt of his July 8 post, "It's a Frackin' Cracker!":
"Can anyone out there score me some consecrated communion wafers?" Myers continued by saying, "if any of you would be willing to do what it takes to get me some, or even one, and mail it to me, I'll show you sacrilege, gladly, and with much fanfare. I won't be tempted to hold it hostage (no, not even if I have a choice between returning the Eucharist and watching Bill Donohue kick the pope in the balls, which would apparently be a more humane act than desecrating a goddamned cracker), but will instead treat it with profound disrespect and heinous cracker abuse, all photographed and presented here on the web."
Catholic League president Bill Donohue responded as follows:
"The Myers blog can be accessed from the university's website. The university has a policy statement on this issue which says that the 'Contents of all electronic pages must be consistent with University of Minnesota policies, local, state and federal laws.' One of the school's policies, 'Code of Conduct,' says that 'When dealing with others,' faculty et al. must be 'respectful, fair and civil.' Accordingly, we are contacting the President and the Board of Regents to see what they are going to do about this matter. Because the university is a state institution, we are also contacting the Minnesota legislature.
"It is hard to think of anything more vile than to intentionally desecrate the Body of Christ. We look to those who have oversight responsibility to act quickly and decisively."
When dealing with others, I must be respectful, fair and civil. Hmmm. Doesn't seem to say anything about when dealing with crackers.
That last paragraph is marvelously blind. Hey, Bill! I can think of something more vile! How about intentionally desecrating the bodies of young altar boys who respect the position of trust held by Catholic priests? I think that is a lot more vile than mistreating a cracker. In fact, I can think of innumerable vile acts going on all around the world right now, and not all of them even involve Catholicism. It takes the moral vacuum of a purblind ideological bigot like Bill Donohue to think that goring his sacred cow is the worst thing in the world.
- Log in to post comments
Well, that's mightily disingenuous. Isn't there something about bearing false witness somewhere in church doctrine....?
Oooh that's low. Very low. Granted they didn't have very far to fall since nearly all their knickers were touching the floor, but now they're giving us meat AND veg. The depravity!
"It is hard to think of anything more vile than to intentionally desecrate the Body of Christ. "
Bill, when you produce the body of Jesus Christ, and show PZ desecrating it, than I'll agree with you. Until then, go mutter over your cracker magic.
Jim D.
Has your boss talked to you about it yet PZ?
Oh, Goddamn...
The soggy-snackfood-saga continues!!!
Death to cracker infidels!
man they are so lame.
PS worst. scandal. ever.
But it's a cracker. Not the body of Christ that, if it actually existed, has substantially, if not completely, been reduced to its component molecular and atomic structures.
I do love his lawyering though. This is a SEED blog. Not a UMM blog. Donahue doesn't seem to grasp that you're not a slave to the UMM owing 27/7 fealty and what you do on your time is, well, not the Universities business.
It's like he's an 8-year old crying to your daddy because you hit his bullying ass back. Last time that happened with me, my dad laughed at the kid and told him he deserved to get his ass kicked.
Is the Catholic League made up of only one guy, Bill Donohue?
Hey, Moses, I want to live in your alternate world. As a mom to two, I could use an extra 3 hours a day!
<27/7>
PZ, you need to watch out for Bill. I have it on good authority that he has ninjas in his employ! (I'm pretty sure Southpark is a documentary.)
holding it hostage for several days
Bwhahahaaaa
My, cannibals sure are touchy! If you anger him even more, he might do a magic dance that will poison your cattle and wither your crops!
It's time to let loose the Hitch.
Perhaps we should contact the server for catholicleague.org and complain about the hate speech and threats on that site.
"In fact, I can think of innumerable vile acts going on all around the world right now, and not all of them even involve Catholicism."
My thoughts immediately. I wonder if they would be upset if I took a wafer, then pulled out a bit of Cheeze Whiz and added it for flavor?
Hmm. Freedom of speech obviously means nothing to some guys.
Its particularly insidious seeing as this forum is not hosted by a college website.
It seems that Witch-Hunter as a profession is making a comeback among zealots!
From stupid, to more stupid.
The adage is "cut your losses," Bill, not "make yourself look even more dumb and inept."
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
..."Paul Zachary?" That's what it stands for? Well, I guess that it's better than Mervin Rottingham. :P
"It is hard to think of anything more vile than to intentionally desecrate the Body of Christ."
Hm let's see... There's rape, the holocaust, necro, pedophilia, priests raping children, fundamentalists...
Is it really THAT hard? I think mister Donohue needs imagination.
My thoughts immediately. I wonder if they would be upset if I took a wafer, then pulled out a bit of Cheeze Whiz and added it for flavor?
But... but... Everyone goes better with cheese!
I may have missed it in the previous post's comments, but I was under the impression that the wafer is just a cracker until it actually goes in your mouth, and then becomes the body of Christ.
So, until eaten, it's just a goddamn cracker.
If you need a legal defense fund, just throw up the link to paypal or the like. I'm still a grad student, but my wallet and my mouth are in lockstep.
Some Catholics are getting extremely excited over possible cracker abuse. How come I've never seen this kind of anger/frothing at the mouth/accusing behaviour over the abuse of children by priests? This is ONE cracker, yet how many thousands of children have been abused? By priests who are *protected* by the Catholic Church? The hypocrisy of it all astounds me. It is one. damn. cracker.
As a recovering catholic, I can tell you that those crackers don't even taste good. They're dry and tasteless, which makes it hard to see why anybody would care, if not for magical spell the priest casts on it.
This is embarrasing. I thought the Catholic Church was meant to have a little dignity if nothing else.
Back in the 90s, the English double act Lee and Herring wrote a sketch for a character called 'Simon Quinlank, the Hobby King' which I cannot help but think of:
The Christian Church Crawl Hobby
http://www.leeandherring.com/simon.html
What a sad, hateful man you are.
my, what a quick, easy scandal to construct. imagine if everyone who reads pharyngula offered to crumble up said crackers with a rolling pin! instead of eating them! can you imagine anything more vile?!
surely there must come a point where Donohue and all are unable to keep up the facade of spluttering outrage and realise what a silly idea this transubstantiation is.
If Donhue finds it hard to think of more vile things than descerating a wafer then he must live a very sheltered life. Does Dafur mean nothing to him ? Is he unaware of what is happening in Zimbabwe ? How stupid can someone to either be unaware of these, or to think desecrating a host is worse ?
Hey Bill, you're a festering troglobyte. I sincerely mean that with love and concern.
I love how he's confusing "linked from" with "hosted by." Grade-A dumbassery for sure.
If you want to see learn just how cracked this cracker-eating cracker Donohue is, watch his debate with Christopher Hitchens:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tz8GTs1MISY
Simple matter, Donohue--sensibly, scientifically, and legally, it is not the Body of Christ. It is a processed wheat product.
I would treat your superstition with some respect where individual persons are involved, simply as the decent thing to do. What you have absolutely no right to do is to require that everyone buy into your superstition, outside of simply respecting individuals (not the group).
Glen Davidson
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
I think they should video tape the boy holding the cracker while jumping on a pogo stick, all while shouting "JUMPING JESUS ON A POGO STICK."
That is all. It would be the best hostage video ever.
Hey professor Let's talk about about some of the degenerate sexual deviates at the University of Minnesota like the three filth bag football players that were expelled in the spring of 2007. Does that ring a bell? Don't open your mouth about anyone else. Perhaps you can forward to me your published outrage about that incident. Don't try to hide behind the fact that you work at some satelklite campus of that loser University. If you were silent about that than I guess you and all your self righteous pseudo-intellectual liberal crapheads accept it.
This whole thing reminds of this
Hmm. I say this leads to a terrible idea. We snatch a priest-blessed cracker, and actually hold it 'hostage' (maybe also torture it some) until they come clean and admit to covering up the child molesting, in as big an area as they can.
If they don't go out of their way to do anything they can to save their Jesus Pieces(tm) then they're obviously not doing the whole faith thing right, no?
I am so waiting for this fight.
Come on religious fanatics, here we are,..come and try and get us.
We are behind PZ 100% and if you try and persecute him for expressing his opinion about you stupid mythology, you will be dealing with people that will expose your child molesting religion for what it is...
In short, if you want a fight..you got one...
"Paul Zachary Myers..." that reminds me of when I was a kid and my mom used my full name when I was in really big trouble. Look out PZ, I think you are in BIG trouble with Mr. Donohue. What an idiot this guy is.
"It is hard to think of anything more vile than to intentionally desecrate the Body of Christ."
But they EAT the Body of Christ - after the priest drinks his blood! How is that ritual cannibalism less desecratory than sneaking a cracker out of the building?
PZ: I don't suppose I could talk you into not doing it. But what if I say please?
A Catholic
Hey, if you can't get a hold of a communion wafer, I'll gladly send you a copy of the Koran to desecrate. I'd love to see a video of that!!
Cheez Whiz?! This snack calls for Cheeses of Nazareth®!
"I was under the impression that the wafer is just a cracker until it actually goes in your mouth, and then becomes the body of Christ."
Then its clear that PZ has to stick the cracker in his mouth and then desecrate it.
Giong to their source book (no not the catechism, but the babble), I do not recall any unpardonable sins except one - blaspheming the holy ghost. Nothing about cheese' corpse, nothing about stale tasteless crackers.
I agree with G. Barnett (#29). Anyone can go to the UM-Morris faculty page for PZ's department, mouse over to the link to his webpage, and notice that: HEY it's not hosted by UMM! Hmmm... What does THAT mean? I wonder.....
As to Matilda (#25), are you talking about Bill Donohue or PZ Myers? Please, if you're going to point fingers and accuse people of something make sure that you are clear about whom you are accusing. (Specificity of what you are accusing them of would also be helpful; "sad, hateful" is not specific. Proof of what would otherwise be baseless conjecture on your part merely shows itself to be on par with vacuous statements of pure opinion - which I'm not discouraging, but makes your accusations against people ring quite ... erm... vacuous.)
I remember back in High School having a teacher tell us about scares far back in antiquity with Catholics locking up the Eucharist for fear of Satan worshipers kidnapping and torturing the host. But...we have electricity and science now....*head desk*
CortxVortx said:
Not quite AFAIK - just before it's given out it's consecrated (the priest makes the sign of the cross and mutters at it) which is what causes the miracle to occur and the host to become the body of christ rather than the actual eating of it.
That's what I remember of my RE lessons at school anyway.
It is hard to think of anything more vile than to intentionally desecrate the Body of Christ.>/i>
I don't get this whole blasphemy/desecration thing. I mean, assuming there's a God, what real harm does he suffer if a few puny mortals say insulting things about him, or do nasty things to his earthly symbols? Seems to me that any Lord of the Cosmos worth his salt would just shrug those things off as beneath his dignity to notice. What's one of the lessons we try to teach our children? To ignore verbal taunting ("Sticks and stones...."). So how come Donohue's God is allowed to be more touchy than an insecure six-year-old?
That whole Catholic League site seems to exist for only three key reasons:
1. To promote Bill Donohue's rants
2. To put out two or three press releases a month slamming Barack Obama (July 7 Press Release: "Reports have surfaced today by Deal Hudson and Jill Stanek that Sen. Barack Obama is dodging the issue of his support for selective infanticide.")
3. To solicit as much cash as possible in the form of donations, memberships, subscriptions, books etc.
Plus the usual apologetics ...oh, and to defend Mel Gibson's infamous commentary on judaism ...
2girls1cracker.com
Maybe??
This is one of the funniest things I've ever read. I hope it doesn't cause you any real problems.
"It is hard to think of anything more vile than to intentionally desecrate the Body of Christ cracker. "
really? I can think of plenty of things more vile than that!
Donohue continues to demonstrate his spittle-flecked vapidity. Nothing new to see here. Move along.
Bill D's useful idiots have started to roll in... anybody know where the cross-link is, or did it go out over the boy-bother-er's mailing list?
Wow. If I were an ex-Catholic, I'd be dying of embarassment right now. If I weren't an atheist already, this nonsense would have convinced me to become one. If Jesus were here, he'd have to smack a few people in the head and say "I didn't mean it LITERALLY, ya moron!"
"And therefore so should everyone else."
I have news for you Donahue, not holding your mythological deity in the same high regard you do isn't being disrespectful. It's having the freedom to believe what I like. My (and everyone else's) freedom of religion necessitates freedom from your religion. But I wouldn't expect a hypocritical bigot like you to understand that, or even try.
I really hope someone tries to sue you or get you fired because you were out after sundown on the Sabbath. Asshole.
It doesn't have to be eaten.
The 'theory' goes that as soon as it is consecrated by the priest, it undergoes transubstantiation. Transubstantiation means that all though it looks, smells, tastes and *actually is atom for atom the same*, it has still somehow 'become' the body of Christ.
I'm not sure, but I believe it may use a similar mechanism to homoepathic medicine so that there is no detectable atoms of anything other than wafer, but it's nevertheless the body of Jeebus.
And if you eat enough, you can devour a whole Jesus.
PZ: Here's what ya gotta do.
Get a bunch of atheists to start palming wafers each week at church and smuggling 'em out. Gather them all together, and when you've got 20,000 or so, grab some superglue and start forming them into a life-size statue of Jesus.
EXCEPT... it won't be a STATUE of Jesus, it will ACTUALLY BE JESUS!!!!
See, it will be constructed entirely out of the mystically transsubstantiated flesh of Jesus! How can Bill Donahue be upset about the return of his Savior?
If that doesn't get the Vatican to dispatch the Opus Dei Albino hitmen after you, nothing will.
I thought cannibalism was illegal in the Excited States. I know it's frowned upon in Canada! ;)
And, yes, I was raised catholic, but I've gotten better!
I really want to hear what Mr. Condell would say about this.
If God doesn't get you, ,I will
At #33:
That actually has nothing to do with the issue being discussed. You're derailing the conversation. Just because PZ hasn't posted on it (or has and you've been to lazy to read the rest of the blog) does not diminish the nastiness of the Catholic Church's habit of covering up sexual abuse scandals. Nor does it make victims of the Church any less hurt by what happened to them.
Hells, at least the footballers got expelled which is more than I can say for most of the priests in these situations.
Sorry for feeding the troll everyone.
An idea: horribly desecrate and mutilate an ordinary cracker (as if there's any other kind, but you get what I mean) that just *looks* like a Eucharist, but is not. Then wait for the cries of outrage. Then reveal that it was just a regular cracker you bought at the local gas station. A little practical Socratic method.
I called up that Catholic League and told them I didn't think Bill Maher would fight them, but as one who has publically said much worse things about Catholics than Bill has ever said, and more than willing to say whatever it took to take his place
Bill Donohue has yet to return my call for our Madison Square Garden bout.
Ho-hum, zzz! Satanism has encouraged the desecration of the eucharist for decades. It's all been done before - though it's nice to see you takig your own interest.
Might I suggest just taking the communion wafers and handing them to some homeless guy for a lunchtime snack? That'd probably be just as naughty to the Catholic Church... especially if the homeless guy is gay or Jewish or something.
Hey, if you can't get a hold of a communion wafer, I'll gladly send you a copy of the Koran to desecrate. I'd love to see a video of that!! - leftie
How about smashing the cracker to smithereens with a copy of the Koran? Two birds with one stone!
And here come the threats. Isn't it great how people who are supposed to "love your neighbor", "turn the other cheek", and "do unto others" are so quick to threaten violence?
Oh, look... death threats at #60.
I guess we weren't off track with thinking these weren't nice people, huh?
Ted said:
"If God doesn't get you, ,I will"
Hm, are you serious here Ted? If you are truly trying to threaten, then remember this,..we hit back...
PZ,
You're convieniently omitting the fact that while your blog may be on separate servers, both your blogs servers and the university's servers do reside in the same series of tubes. Busted! One for the Catholic League.
More "love thy neighbor" I guess...
Bigot.
Perhaps Bill will organize a protest.
He can make signs that say, "Behead those who desecrate the cracker of christ".
I have no doubt Donohue would have been one of the most prolific 'inquisitors" of the dark ages. I cannot find the foul language necessary to describe him adequately.
Eamon Knight said:
More to the point what kind of omnipotent, omniscient deity is offended by the mockery of mortals and then practically begs for it by choosing an epic Maroon like Bill Donahue as one of his spokesman (not to mention an Emperor Palpatine lookalike as his Head of PR)?
(.)(.)
I sense a contest coming on...who can desecrate a cracker in the most uncivil way!?!? Pictures required of course!
"Catholic League"? It's pretty odd when a "league" purportedly representing a group as numerous (and, I suppose, diverse) as American Catholics appears to exist solely to provide a platform for one perpetually angry individual. Perhaps what is needed is a rival "League of Extraordinary Catholics", which could become the media's go-to group on Catholic issues and supplant Donohue. You just need to find Catholics with the right special powers.
At #68:
Indeed, no obligation to turn the other cheek as it were.
totally off-topic but...I need to read less pharyngula: I just had a dream that me, angelia jolie, and my ex-boyfriend were PZ's grad students. And it was kind of like House :s
ohmygodohmygodohmygod!!!!
Bill Donohue knows your name!
Perhaps Bill will organize a protest.
He can make signs that say, "Behead those who desecrate the cracker of christ".
I have no doubt Donohue would have been one of the most prolific 'inquisitors" of the dark ages. I cannot find the foul language necessary to describe him adequately.
You've got K-Lo's attention at The Corner:
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ODZlYmE3ZjcyMTY4OGMxOTg4ZDczMj…
"If God doesn't get you, I will"
If God doesn't 'get' PZ, does that not tend to suggest a very particular scenario for a believer*?
Namely, if the omnipotent and omnipresent God who definitely exists and isn't made up or anything** hasn't bothered doing something that He must both know about and be capable of doing something about, He probably doesn't give a damn.
And if God doesn't give a damn, who the hell are you to go against Him, you supersized fuckwit?
* I'm ignoring those of us who have successfully worked out God is imaginary.
** He is.
So, when can we expect everyone to steal a wafer and desecrate it, putting the video on YouTube? I'm contemplating an infiltration of my local True Catholic Church (TM) for just such an evil, vile hostage/torture scheme. I wonder what one could get in terms of ransom for said Body of Christ (R).
I'd laugh about this, except that it's not even a Poe.
Something disturbing about someone who names a cracker and refers to it in the first person. And why are even atheists capitalizing "Eucharist"? Is it a brand name? Its still a cracker, or a wafer, or maybe just a piece of bread (depending on where the church falls on the divine baked goods scale).
So, using this 'respect logic' that our 'challenged' friend Bill uses, shouldn't we stop eating burgers and steaks. If a cow is sacred to Hindus, man should America be ashamed. Honestly, I'm having trouble stomaching this whole story. Anybody who sides with the 'crackers' on this one is in need of a god damn lobotomy.
PZ -
Whatever you do to the host you are sure to receive, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE hold it hostage for several days first. I would LOVE to see a photo of a blindfolded cracker, perhaps with a cigarette graciously provided by its captor.
Does the transubstantiated Jesus-cracker somehow decay back into a mere gooey gob of digested grain sometime before it hits your colon, or does it come out your poop-chute still full of that Jesus-y goodness?
If the latter, isn't crapping out the Lord of the Universe somewhat worse than merely palming a cracker for a later snack?
I'm really trying to understand how this works here, Bill. Help me out, wouldja?
Dr. Myers,
Well done! Any chance to get these religious wackos in a tizzy is a good one to take. I hope you do get ahold of some of these crackers. If I were still a practicing Catholic I might have been in a position to help you, but alas.
I grew up Catholic- even spending 13 years in private Catholic schools. I somehow managed to avoid molestation before renouncing my faith and the cannibalism/necromancy it entails.
Nowadays, I'm also a huge Pharyngula fan. The Expelled, ID, Creationism, fraud preachers are fine targets to beat on, but now that PZ has turned his gaze on my roots- the church- I can only wait with bated breath.
This is kid-in-a-candy-store exciting.
You know, I can't help but wonder why, if these crackers are so important to them, they don't keep a closer watch on them.
I mean, really, they just let a piece of their deity walk out the door? Hell, Walmart has tighter security for much less valuable stuff.
Myers,
You're a fucking giant sized scumbag. I hope you die slowly and painfully. Cunt.
If we waterboard it is it still not torture?
Mackerel snappers of the world repent!!!
Hey Ted - I like to use Holy Jesus Body Wafers(TM) to wipe my butt - It's now nice an clean so you can kiss it - when you're done kissing Bill's and Pope Benny's.
Should PZ be removed from his job?
Clearly, this is a question that can only be resolved with...
AN INTERNET POLL!!!
Who wants to start one? :)
So if you take a cracker out of church and photograph it, it is sacrilege.
If you chew it to bits, expose it to acid, mix it around with your feces, and expel it through your anus, it is not sacrilege.
Got it.
Wow, SFG, you really are a shining example of Christian love, where can I sign up?
CortxVortx -
I may have missed it in the previous post's comments, but I was under the impression that the wafer is just a cracker until it actually goes in your mouth, and then becomes the body of Christ.
So, until eaten, it's just a goddamn cracker.
No, if that were the case then there wouldn't have been a big stink about the kid "kidnapping" Jesus and the previous article wouldn't have been written.
First its a cracker. A whole plate of these crackers and bottle of wine are taken to the alter. The priest says some magic words and waves his hands in particular ways. At that point, the cracker becomes the "body of Christ" and the wine becomes "the blood of Christ".
Uneaten and undrunk portions have to be carefully disposed of, lest you desecrate the Lord. For example, the former-wine has to be drunk completely by the priest and the laity responsible for distribution. Uneaten former-crackers are gathered up into a little golden box and placed in another special box (usually at the front of the church in a place of honor - though newer churches might have it at the back). Those "leftovers" can be used in ceremonies later in the week, where the priest doesn't have to do any magic because it's already God. (And hey there's precedent - the Hebrews apparently kept God locked up in a golden box for a number of years before the box got stolen from them! So that part's traditional!)
And the cups holding the wine and plates holding the crackers have to be washed in a special sink with a drain that leads directly into the ground - bits of Jesus should not end up in the sewer. And as far as the whole "eating==desecration" goes, well, the Jesus parts don't get digested and defecated because it's a miracle. So there.
Seriously, the whole thing is really, really silly. As I mentioned in the other thread, learning about how it was supposed to work was really the first time I started to question whether the whole religion thing wasn't some big joke at our expense. And a lot of younger Catholics I know already feel kind of awkward about the whole thing and don't like to discuss it in public because they know it's silly. But it's also a foundation of the faith, so you can't really talk much about how silly it is (unless you're willing to leave the whole package behind, of course).
This is almost getting funny. More Catholics showing their true colors.
Why don't you pray for him to die slowly and painfully? I'm sure your kind and loving god would be only too happy to oblige you.
PZ ... I wouldn't presume to speak for anyone here, let alone everyone.
But if there's anything anyone reading this can do that might help - or indeed anything you don't want done in case it hinders - tell us.
@SFG:
You forgot Shit, Piss, Cocksucker, Motherfucker and Tits. Asshole.
@ Moggie (#75)
Splitter!
Bill Donohue: You said it, man. Nobody fucks with the Jesus.
Walter: Eight-year-olds, Dude.
It's telling how the religidiots are the actual ones who are wishing painful death and actually making death threats, while the worst we do is call them names. I don't even do that. How cute them getting all offended for a cookie.
Glue crackers all over a copy of the Koran, wrap the whole thing in an American flag, and burn it. Let's go for all the sacred cows!
To "ted"... I can feel your 'Christian Love'... you seem like such a kind fellow, probably well worth conversing with... well representative of the religion that fills up this increasingly larger and larger cesspool of a society. Thanks for stopping by and please consider reading more than just ONE book in your life. You'd be amazed what even your brain might be capable of comprehending ;)
TSG,
I'm not a Catholic or anything else. Myers is a total sack of shit for saying what he says and doing what he does. The "man" is a cunt and so are you.
Game of "Limp Biscuit" anyone?
The question is how we would get the cracker to PZ in the first place. Aren't there strict rules regarding transferring human tissues through the mail? (ooh, we get to play with dry ice) Wait, speaking of which isn't the Catholic church violating the rules regarding the safe handling of human tissues? We're dealing with blood and other tissues from someone who lived 2000 years ago, who knows what sort of vile diseases it has that we might not have immunity to because those strains are extinct. Wow, suddenly I'm worried. Every Catholic church in the country is generating potentially high-grade biohazardous substances without any protection and handing them out willy-nilly to unsuspecting visitors with little or no security, not to mention FDA oversight.
And don't forget, he's telling on you to MOMMY so there!
If you're not a Catholic are you an alien then, SFG? Using your alien powers to discern who is a sack of shit and who isn't?
Though really I'm not sure exactly what it is that PZ "does" that has you on edge so badly. Do you not like teachers or something? Or is it only people who have an opinion differing from your own that set you on edge?
It's nice to see the outpouring of christian love, now that the catlickers are showing up.
Idea:
Cut pieces off of the crackers people send you and mail then to Donohoue with ransom notes demanding he apologize.
Also, be careful who you give your mailing address to. I would bet anyone who uses a lot of capital letters, misspells simple words, etc. intends to send you death threats rather than holy crackers.
I sense a contest coming on...who can desecrate a cracker in the most uncivil way!?!? Pictures required of course!
So, SFG, you charmer, you're not religious, yet PZ is a 'total sack of shit', a 'cunt' and apparently not actually a man because he dare point out that a cracker is...
a CRACKER.
It's not the only thing that's crackers round here.
/me waits with bated breath for complaints from the Framist Quarter
KnaveRupe (#57):
Dude. Awesome.
Zan,
Alien? What drugs are you on you cunt? Fuck off and die. Twat features.
@SFG
No you are!
Wow, 0-to-100 in 60 minutes. catholic love.
Oh! Speared by your rapier wit! How will I ever recover.
Twit.
Well, I guess it's the latter, general hatred of people with ideas and minds. Thanks for clearing that up SFG! :D
battle of the titans here, eh? two of the most implacable, hardheaded personalities on earth in a cage deathmatch. of course, pz has truth and freedom of speech on his side, and bill donahue has an army of mythological creatures and, er, lawyers.
pz, i'd go ahead and lawyer up. you're such a high profile person now i can't imagine it would be hard to find pro bono support from the aclu or americans united. bill donahue is a bullyboy and this is a good fight to have. he will lose.
I propose a competition which I'm going to call the:
Crazy Christ Cracker Challenge!
Presumably these crackers must come from a Holy Processing Factory where they get made, packaged and shipped out.
The Crazy Christ Cracker Challenge is to see how how many crackers you can eat in one sitting without drinking - depending ont he size of the packages this might only require 1 packet.
If they are anything like cream crackers i package size I reckon eating a whole pack will be a near impossible feat. Perhaps if you do the combined christiness will do something AMAZING - perhaps miraculously create a strong thirst where once there was none.
In any case I'm sure this is a solid proposal - can I have a grant for it? Please?
#56 "The 'theory' goes that as soon as it is consecrated by the priest, it undergoes transubstantiation. Transubstantiation means that all though it looks, smells, tastes and *actually is atom for atom the same*, it has still somehow 'become' the body of Christ"
I see. It is Homeopathic Christ.
Drew,
I don't know what you're talking about. Cunt.
Bravo, PZ. Took quite long for someone to actually dare them to be their medieval selves. As a former catholic who was frankly embarrassed (even as a believer) by that fake cannibalism show, I'd get a cracker for you myself if I was sure it'd survive postage all the way from Brazil.
Oh, for the love of chocolate cake and orgasms, it's like Pharyngula has become YouTube.
@ #61
If you feed the trolls, PLEASE make sure it is crackers.
Whoever photoshopped the face of PZ on the painting of jeebus a few days ago, PLEASE make one with the face of PZ on a cracker.
I'm not a Catholic - SFG
Liar.
Why did Jesus cross the road?
Because he was nailed to a chicken.
Or instead, obtain an roughly human shaped robot, and glue crackers around the outside of it. Then use a speaker inside it to give commands to Catholics. For example, you could order then to give you money; that seems to work for Donohue.
Re: #46 & #56 (and probably others)
Okay, I bow to superior knowledge on the timing of transubstantiation.
Vampires, mummies, and the Holy Ghost
These are the things that terrify me the most
No aliens, psychopaths, or MTV hosts
Scare me like vampires, mummies, and the Holy Ghost
-- Jimmy Buffett
http://www.almy.com/commbread.html
Not sanctified, but a good place to start; I know a few defrocked priests who will say the mumble over it for the price of a bottle of Mad dog 20/20.
I'm glad this conversation is being conducted at a mature, adult level.
Look, I have the perfect solution to the people so offended by what PZ or anyone else might do to a cracker: believe it stops being Jesus as soon as it leaves the church. Problem solved. It shouldn't be that hard to do. You already believe a man in a robe can magically turn a cracker into god by waving at it, why not believe a doorway can magically turn it back? Have the guy in a robe wave his hands at the doorway if it makes you feel better.
Really. Your offense is entirely of your own doing. Stop being offended and it will go away.
#62, good idea. That'll make them really furious they'd been duped!
PZ, I'm going to design you a crocheted testicle bra, because you are falling out! Ooh! That just gave me a great idea....how could you desecrate the B of C anymore than releasing certain manly bodily fluids all over it? Or....enjoying a little nosecandy off it?
Try rolling your squab in crumbled up Jesus crackers, shake, and bake!
That way you can eat both the Son and the Holy Ghost!
Anyone wanna bet that SFG is a prepubescent boy who learned some new vocabulary and is trying to impress everyone by using them as often as he can?
HEY GUYS I'M SWEARING AT EVERYONE AND CALLING PEOPLE NAMES LIKE A SIX YEAR OLD PLEASE TAKE ME SERIOUSLY
guys?
GUYS???
Re: #17
It's spelled Paul Zachary Myers, but it's pronounced Tentacled Overlord.
"Hey, if you can't get a hold of a communion wafer, I'll gladly send you a copy of the Koran to desecrate. I'd love to see a video of that!!"
I'm going out on a limb here because I don't know if the comment of someone with a different opinion will be approved on this blog.
All of the accusations of "magic" and "cannibalism" tell me that most of those who are replying here aren't acquainted with history. These are asinine comments at best. The debates about magic and cannibalism took place in the first few centuries after Christianity was founded and Christians are bored by them because they don't hold muster. It might make you feel good to pat each other on the back and call our worship these things, but you won't be taken seriously by anyone with a different point of view.
The old "let's throw out the priest sex scandal and accuse the whole organization of treachery for the sins of very few within that organization" is also nothing new and has gotten boring. The leaders of the Catholic Church have already pinned predator priests for what they are - monsters. That anyone, especially someone who is suppose to model Christian virtue would prey on children is horrific. In the overall debate it is impossible though to ignore the numbers - the occurrence of criminal sexual behavior in the Catholic Church is far lower than any other system - such as the Protestant churches or secular schools. And in a secular society that is completely obsessed with sex it is no wonder that innocent children end up caught in the middle.
I'm sure there is a reason Professor Myers is a college professor and I doubt it has anything to do with his personal religious opinions, the argument "its just a cracker" has nothing to do with the debate. It misses the debate in its entirety. Whether it is a cracker or whether the substance is truly changed to the "body, blood, soul, and divinity" of Jesus Christ wherein the accidents remain is not what is at question in this debate with Bill Donahue.
What is at question is whether or not we should respect others beliefs. Christians really don't care what choice phrases you have for them, anymore than an atheist cares if a Christian thinks they are an "idiot". The poster that mentioned the Koran has an excellent point. Would Professor Myers be inclined to urinate on, or set fire to a Koran, or desecrate it in some other manner and post it on the Internet? Probably not? How about another idea, if you were exploring an African jungle on a biological research trip and came across a previously unknown tribe who worshiped a stone statue and believed it to be their god, would you be immediately inclined to desecrate the statue?
While atheists may believe Christians are morons for believing that the wafer is Jesus Christ after it is consecrated, you are showing a profound disrespect to a whole group of people by desecrating something that is important to them - and for what? I'm not really sure what the point is. For fun? Because you are bored? Because you think you will make a point? The only point I can think of is intolerance. Isn't tolerance the mantra of liberals?
Adam Janke
Franciscan University of Steubenville
Just on a serious note for a minute before I go back to calling PZ and the rest of you cunts.
I have no problem with religion, none at all. If people want to worship and venerate God, that's all good with me.
It's people like yourselves, Myers, Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris (wankers all) that give people like me a shit image and terrible name in the public eye. People think we're all aggressive, insulting, vile little dipshits like you lot are.
None of you know the meaning of live and let live. If all you've got to do all day is insult people that are believers then you've obviously got no lives in the first place.
You don't see the damage you're causing by being pointlessly nasty and churlish in your "observations." If there is/was any battle, you've already lost it by acting like a bunch of spoilt brats who sound like they've had their toys taken away from them. Fucking grow up.
What a shower of, you guessed it, CUNTS.
@ #131:
Are you sure that an ex-priest retains the ability to perform cracker magic? I'd assumed that they lose all their super-powers when they're no longer allowed to wear the funny frocks.
You could do one of those experiments to see how many calories are there before and after one of the cracker's is "blessed."
@123: I think the list of things that you don't know would be rather substantial. But rather than attempt the herculean task of creating that list, I will just point out one thing. You have no concept of how to creatively insult, you are boring. Go read up some Shakespeare, Mark Twain, and H.L. Mencken for inspiration, and then get back to us.
Unless Bill Donohue is a vegetarian, which for some odd reason I doubt, and regularly eats beef, then he's being hypocritical. For a Hindu, there's probably not much that can be more vile than desecrating cows (I think), so does this mean that Bill Donohue should be fired from his job?
(Of course, maybe the Catholic League is all for being disrespectful to everyone and everything. They're certainly acting ridiculously in this cracker case.)
All of this fuss over a little snackrament?
Remember, Jesus loaves you.
Fuck the cracker. It's time to desecrate Bill Donohue. Maybe that'll give the professional whiner a bit of perspective.
SFG is a good example of what can happen when parents neglect to supervise their children's internet access. I would also blame his English teacher. Surely he should have been taught to curse and insult people with a bit more creativity than he has shown.
By telling Bill Donohue to go fuck himself (oh, wait, that's a sin, too).
BTW, Dr. Myers, I'm still of the opinion that you were over the line with this one. I'm partly convinced you made that crack (har!) about desecration to deliberately goad Donohue into responding, but it was still the wrong thing to do. We rationalists need to show we're the mature ones in the group, not that we stoop to the same childish tactics as the opposition.
#139,
Care to elaborate on your assertion that the catholics have the lowest rate of criminal behavior?
Also, the pedophile thing is not about the catholics being pedophiles, but how the church protected and keeps protecting them.
You miss so many points, I'm sure others will get what I didn't.
It's time to Disemvowel SFG
SFG @ # 140
"It's people like yourselves, Myers, Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris (wankers all) that give people like me a shit image and terrible name in the public eye. People think we're all aggressive, insulting, vile little dipshits like you lot are."
And you are proving that *you* aren't how exactly? Nobody here dropped the C-bomb 'till you came along, so nice touch. I suggest you stop while you're way behind.
#139 starts out sounding like a Courtiers Reply and ends claiming that "Oh, all that happened a long time ago, lets just ignore it."
#140 "aggressive, insulting, vile little dipshit" Pot, meet kettle.
@140: Please see comment #143 & 147. Finish your homework, and get back to us.
I would just like to point out that our troll here "sfg" may read too much of that comic "The Punisher". That is the only other place I have ever heard the term "shower of cunts".
Unless someone has heard it used somewhere else? I'm not too sure.
Oh Penfold, what a wit you are...The sort of mindless, aggressive atheism on display here is a total embarrassment to real people who believe that folks should be allowed to do what they want. You're a bunch of damn children.
TSG & Ted:
Widdle bitty babies going bwaaaa! "We hate you PZ, you big bad meanie! We know naughty words too, and we'll USE 'em, 'cause we have iddy bitty bwains and itsy bitsy vocabularies (and even smaller peenies). We'll even lie about not being religious! Take THAT!!!" (holds breath, kicks and pounds floor)
"When dealing with others, I must be respectful, fair[,] and civil. Hmmm. Doesn't seem to say anything about when dealing with crackers."
Taken out of context, it looks like you're really racist, and don't believe those of European descent are human. :O
Talk's cheap. What have they done about it?
Hmmm. It's a good thing nobody pointed that out to the abolitionist movement, the women's rights movement, the civil rights movement, the LGBT movement. . . .
And you call us "pointlessly nasty and churlish". In technical terms, I believe specialists describe this condition as "the pot calling the kettle black as goddamn obsidian wrapped in velvet on a moonless night".
PZ, I'm so proud of you! You got your own CL press release!
Oh, so SFG is one of those wussy "let's not rock the boat" soi-disant atheists. Yeah, let's just be invisible and apologetic for our existence, that'll convince people.
Plus, he thinks the worst insult in the world is calling folks a certain lovely part of the female anatomy.
If you where not a "Catholic or anything else", you wouldn't be getting your fracking panties in a wad over someone calling this stuff silly or making jokes about it, while the people taking it seriously, like you, make fucking death threats. I realize you have your head up your ass, but seriously, it must be so far up your ass that your brain is going septic.
In #96, NonyNony said
This is what bothers me: how do they know they got the incantation correct? How much mumbling is allowed before the cracker stays just a cracker? How much can a priest's hands tremble when doing the hand-waving before the miracle refuses to occur? Can you tell by the cracker if you got it wrong? If not, how do they evaluate student performance on transubstantiation in seminaries? How do we know priests are even doing it right?
What, all electronic pages everywhere? Even ones not on the University's servers? Even ones in private households and/or in completely different countries? Even ones on the International Space Station or on unknown alien worlds and in UFOs?
They may be Catholics but they're definitely over-reaching in demanding such catholic application and imposition of non-catholic tastes.
'Wait, speaking of which isn't the Catholic church violating the rules regarding the safe handling of human tissues?'
This is a very good point, and any university that Bill Donahue complains to should be made aware that there are people *congregating* to violate the biohazard rules.
Adam
PZ has made fun of Islamic beliefs and been critical as well many a time. To make the claim he wasn't shows you know nothing of PZ. You may try and act the martyr and act as if people are picking on you, and maybe they are. Despite this, facts are facts and there is no Jesus body being produced. It is a cracker, and nothing more.
Why would PZ not make fun of a tribe's beliefs? Well, most tribes are still living in the stone age and do not claim to know better. The Catholic Church claims it is consistent with modern times, yet thinks a crack is turned into the body of a dead mythical Jewish preacher. I mean seriously now, do you guys hear yourselves?
Wouldn't eating the body of christ be illegal? I don't think Canibalism is legal, maybe they will make an exception for eating a religious figure. I want to see the magical powers of the Cracker in action.
Adam Janke:
The problem is, your sitting Pope wrote the document on systematic conspiracy to aid and abet the flight of justice of those molesters, to blame victims, etc.
It isn't just the crime... it is the cover-up.
As for your suggestion that Catholic pedo-rape is so rare... perhaps you should direct your ire at the "One in Four" charity in Ireland. Who beg to differ, as you probably know.
You ought to be ashamed of yourself for defending such an organization. Either you're ignorant or deceitful.
@139: "What is at question is whether or not we should respect others beliefs."
No. What is at question here is whether lack of respect for someone's beliefs should warrant threats of bodily harm and employment. Do you really think anyone here would care if the reaction to this event was only "We're offended!"?
Adam @139: Do you respect the beliefs of Scientology? What about the beliefs of the Heaven's Gate cult? Basically, we who comment here tend to think that no, we do not have to respect other people's silly beliefs, religious or otherwise. Generally speaking, PZ and the commenters here respect people's rights granted by law, and we respect people's rights to hold silly beliefs, but we do not respect those beliefs. Nor do we respect people until people prove themselves worthy of respect.
@ #139, Adam Janke:
The cracker issue is a bit of a wedge for us. The real meat of the problem is how we answer questions like:
How should we treat women?
How should we treat homosexuals?
How should we use contraception?
These are all very, very easy questions- questions that secular western societies answered correctly decades ago... questions that Catholics (among other religious people) get dead wrong. Why do they get them dead wrong? Their ridiculous superstitions.
Once superstitions lose their undeserved status of being untouchable, lunacy in public policy stops.
No, what is at issue is whether Donahue and others like him have the right to tell others what they should believe. Because that is exactly what he is doing. That some people don't hold the belief that the cracker is the body of Christ is unacceptable to them. Period. What do you think Donahue would say if Orthodox Jews threatened violence and legal action for his operating of a light switch on the Sabbath? Do you think he'd take it seriously? Would you suggest he refrain from operating light switches on the Sabbath out of respect for their beliefs? I doubt it.
I'll tell you what it is: it's to point out their own intolerance. Because insisting others hold this symbol in the same high regard they do is nothing less.
What is the Catholic League for? Don't Catholics already have powerful lobbying organization called the "Roman Catholic Church"?
Kudos to PeeZed for having this arse trying to have him sacked for a personal blog post. You truly know that you've arrived.
When it's all said and done it is just a stupid cracker. PZ, is there anything we can do to help?
Natural of a Bill Donohue type to fudge the facts to make the situation fit a right-wing meme, that beig that a "taxpayer-funded" professor is bucking society and tearing down the very fabric that binds us! Shock, horror.
Hey SFG: shut off the computer and get a job.
"Smithers, release the Hitchens..."
PZ, its about time you turned the tables. Try to get Donohue sacked from whatever the hell he does.
Oops that'sSFG, my apologies to TSG.
Cunt- what a wonderful word. You must feel so frustrated and impotent SFG. Too bad you aren't capable of expressing yourself intelligently.
Wait a minute. If "folks should be allowed to do what they want", doesn't that include, e.g., taking a wafer home instead of eating it? Or making a statue out of crackers and superglue?
Freedom of expression has to apply to expressions we find offensive, if it is to have any meaning at all.
Be very, very wary now. Catholic witch-hunts and inquisitions are notoriously long-drawn-out affairs. Their chief weapon is surprise, surprise and fear ...
Their two chief weapons are fear and surprise and ruthless efficiency ...
Their three weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope ...
Their four weapons are ... no ...
Amongst their weaponry are such elements as fear and surprise, ruthless efficiency, an almost fanatical devotion to the pope and ...
... soft cushions and a comfy chair.
PZ, this calls for a contest! Most creative and amusing suggestion for what to do with a Magic Jesus Cracker (band name??) wins a Molly and maybe a plushy pink stuffed octopus!
A few ideas off the top of my head:
1. Get someone who's good at sleight of hand to perform the Cups and Balls trick using Communion wafers instead of balls on YouTube.
"And now, for a little magic...Shub Niggurath!" (taps cup with wand, then lifts it up to reveal three wafers where one was before) "Oh, look, the Trinity!" And then finish up by producing a crucifix, a rosary, and a piece of the True Cross instead of fruit.
No doubt these wackaloons would scream, "It's reaaaal magic!! AAAAaaaAaaAAAaaaaa!!!"
2. Get the physics department at your university to loan you a cyclotron, Tesla coil, or some other suitable bit of apparatus, hook the Host in, and theatrically threaten to flip a big, Frankenstein-style knife switch and hit Jesus with a stream of accelerated protons...unless they either give you... >pinky to corner of mouth< One MILLION dollars! or start handing pedophile priests over to the cops. Fantasy: insert the wafer as a target in the Large Hadron Collider. Damn, that would be awesome! ;)
3. Get one of those replica Harry Potter wands, wave it at the cracker and say, "Crucio!"
4. See if an octopus can get the cracker out of a jar.
Oh yeah: Hey, Bill Donahue: you have to shut up when a biologist is talking. I wonder if a giant squid could get Bill Donahue out of a jar...
I like the cut of your jib, Dr. Meyers. While I think Donohue and his followers are dangerously crazy, I admire your courage and forthrightness in standing up to them.
No one here has yet answered me with any intelligence. You do act like spoilt brats and you've all proved me right. You are all such an embarrassment to yourselves. What a sad representation of humanity you are. Getting all uptight because some people like to worship something no-one can prove, including EVERYONE here. But then egotism often leads to abuse. The IQ quotient here is below 0.
I'm no "intellectual" (the thought of those people makes me violently sick), but I can tell what a bunch of nerds you really are.
BTW, if a little cursing really hurts and offends you, then so what? Fucking deal with it.
Oh, and I got the phrase "shower of cunts" from English "comedian" Roy Chubby Brown. Punisher? Don't read comics, I've grown up.
Matt @ 176:
Writing angry letters like the above -is- what he does for a living. Pays pretty well too, I'm sad to say.
Oh gee. Now I have to update my list of science people who have been EXPELLED. Or beaten up, threatened, or murdered.
PZ Myers attempted firing by The Catholic (fascist) League.
Lenkski threatened by Andrew Schlafly of Lieapedia.
This running tally is going to get much longer. If the fundies ever gain a lot of power it might end up being a few tens of millions of names. If they manage to "help" god bring about the apocalypse, it would be a few billion but no one would be around to read it. These people have managed to plumb the depths of evil. No bottom in sight yet.
Yes, Adam, go on about tolerance, and then why don't you tell us the church's opinion on Gay rights? We should be tolerant of your intolerance? Hm, you are right...I am confused...
Bill Donohue, your moron jesus christ preacher man decomposed a long time ago. Get over it.
Hahahahahahaha. Tards everywhere.
Surely this is between PZ and Jesus!? Does the son of god really need the son of a bitch (Donohue) to defend him? Is he not capable of arranging one little avenging lightning bolt all by himself?
Anyway, you'd think Donohue would be glad to see PZ damning his own soul to eternal hellfire. I mean, regardless of how "offended" the christers might feel, the only person who stands to suffer any real harm (ie: eternal damnation or heavenly retribution) is PZ.
Perhaps Billy D is afraid PZ might NOT get his comeuppance for some reason. Maybe, in his heart of hearts, Billy D has doubts?
Wait a second. The Catholic League puts out a press release about PZ, something that goes out to the mainstream media, thereby allowing news organizations like Reuters, AP and the like to pick up the story and run with it? I get the impression that the legend of PZ Myers is about to grow larger.
As for the link from the UMN website, I went to that site recently and remember having to navigate around serveral departments and auxilary sites to get to the link. It's not like there's a huge banner ad at the top of the front page with dozens of pop-up ads directing you to the Pharyngula blog.
My first visit here, if your thesis was so important and thousands of researchers are working on zebrafish, why are you still associate professor at a satellite campus and not full professor at the main campus?
Dammit. Should have said Dr. Myers, not Meyers. Can't spell today.
SFG @ 182:
Generally speaking, you don't open with "You're a cunt" when you're looking for serious dialog.
'The old "let's throw out the priest sex scandal and accuse the whole organization of treachery for the sins of very few within that organization" is also nothing new and has gotten boring.'
To be clear, it's not one allegation of abuse, it's many thousands, over decades. I'm sure the victims would be delighted to hear you find it 'boring'. And I'm sure when they weren't raping boys or aiding those who raped boys, they're wonderful, well-rounded people. And I'm sure plenty of Catholic priests resigned in horror when Ratzinger - one of those who relocated paedophile priests - got the top job ... you can list the names of those heroes here, if you like.
But if you want a more recent stick to beat Catholicism with, there's only been an ex-Nazi in charge since 2005. Is that novel enough?
You, presumably, agree that Ratzinger should be prosecuted for any crimes he committed? If you don't say you do, it's OK, we'll assume you do.
Well, this should be easy to settle. Tell Bill Donohue that he's welcome to have the cracker back if he can correctly identify the blessed one from a group of otherwise identical crackers which are not blessed. I'd hate to think Donohue wouldn't know the body of Jesus when he see's it!
Because you haven't displayed any.
CortxVortx @ 130, I see your Jimmy Buffet song and raise you one:
My head hurts, my feet stink, and I don't love Jesus
It's that kind of mornin'
Really was that kind of night
Tryin' to tell myself that my condition is improvin'
And if I don't die by Thursday I'll be roarin' Friday night -- Jimmy Buffett
Oooh, PZ's in tru-ouble, Bill used his middle name...
I once went to church with a Catholic friend, and when he came back from taking communion I asked him how his Jesus was this morning. Answer? "Bland. He could use some pepper or something."
By the way, if the suggestion to build a Jesus statue out of communion wafers really hurts and offends you, then so what? Fucking deal with it.
By the way, I had six years of Opus Dei Catholic religious eduction/full-on indoctrination, and I used to believe that transubstantiated wafers really were Jesus. Not "just Jesus", but that each Eucharistic wafer was the "Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity" of Jesus Christ. So I will tackle a couple of the recurring questions on here.
First, the belief is that when a priest speaks the words, "This is My Body" during the consecration in the Mass, THAT is when transubstantiation occurs and the wafer becomes Jesus in his body, blood, etc. NOT when you put the wafer in your mouth.
Secondly, even laicized priests (and probably defrocked ones) supposedly retain the ability to consecrate wafers. So yes, if you could find a willing ex-priest, you could get him to "authentically" transubstantiate a bunch of them for you.
Thirdly, the belief is that as long as a consecrated Eucharist retains all of the essential "accidents" (characteristics) of bread, it remains Jesus. So supposedly when saliva and stomach acids de-nature the consumed wafer such that it no longer is recognizable as bread, it ceases being Jesus. That's what I was taught, anyway.
Now, if the host wafer had some indigestible particles in it (such as the whole-grain wafers my church gave us used to), do those particles remain Jesus even after digestion? Don't laugh, but this was one of the intellectual problems that always bothered me, and that eventually helped to lead me out of Catholicism. I've always wondered why the GIRM (the Vatican publication that sets out the rules and rubrics for Mass) didn't specify that the host wafers had to be 100% digestible in nature, with no bran bits in them.
Also, any tiny enough particle of the host ceases being Jesus when it gets so tiny it no longer retains the essential characteristics of bread. I know, you examine this closely and it doesn't stand up to logical scrutiny, but this is what I was taught.
Anyone acting in good faith would recognize that the actions discussed here refelct a bad character.
You lack Catholic faith in the Eucharist. That's lawful in this country. Why go further?
Actually I think respect is an issue here.
Donohue, Jancke et al demand it as a right rather than seeing as something to be earned. Given the Catholic Church's position on the rights of women, of gays and their rigid insistance on adherence to their teachings on contraception rather than showing intelligence and compassion in trying to prevent the spread of HIV infection, and the issue of child abuse by clergy, it would be hard to make a case for them deserving any respect at all.
Hey S,
I think you got the winners and losers wrong. At worst, Professor Myers looks like an eighteen-year-old on the Web finding YouTube and sacrilege for the first time. On the other hand, you and your compatriots sound like people who should be wearing hoods and beheading people who disagree with them. Guess who looks worse?
I might think you were a character from a Monty Python skit but I don't think you have the depth. (Though I could hear "Come over here, I'll bite your legs off" coming from your mouth.)
Oh, and you use the C-word a lot. You might want to find an alternative outlet for your sexual frustration.
@ 19 (CortxVortx):
Well, that depends on whether you are a Consecrationalist or a Consumptionist. Such minutae are extremely important to some Christologers in determining whether or not to be "in communion" with other Christologers; this is serious stuff, don'tcha know, as it hinges around whether or not the leftovers are required to get eaten, whether they can be distributed to local wildlife (birds), ow whether tossing them in the trash/down the drain is acceptable.
It's amazing the inanity some people go through whether they'll accept someone else as part of Teh Group or not. Teh horrorz!
SFG,
The thing is, this site isn't about anything other than the opinions of one man, a prolific and well-known one, but a single man all the same.
And you know what? For the most part he's preaching to the choir. This site isn't here (as far as I know) to make a special difference in the religeous community, it's here for PZ to go on about whatever he wants to and if he wants to be what you term a cunt about it, then so be it.
Nobody is foring the religeous public at large to view the site. That they come by and torture themselves with material they don't like seeing is their own problem.
Not to mention that your complaints about our being aggresive, vile, dipshits really don't ring true when you've been sitting around insulting people yourself.
As for me, wonderful they're worshipping something, it makes them feel better, and really, I don't care all that much. However, when the church gets worked up over something so simple and petty and starts comparing it to kidnapping of actual human beings it starts to bother me. Not to mention mockery can sometimes be effective at getting people to see exactly how much they're overreacting.
Then again, sometimes it isn't.
As for the vocal and so-called nasty atheists out there, we weren't getting our voices heard by being polite. I'm not sure what else to do because for the most part, religeons are evangelical. Spreading their faith (sometimes through any means nessicary)tends to be primary a goal. Just because I'm not bothering anyone with my own unbelief certainly doesn't mean they won't bother me.
I'll cut it off now since I'm rambling, and in response to your previous question: no I'm not on drugs I'm just a fucking freak-cunt. :D
Kagehi,
I may have sworn on here, but I have not once made any death threats. Learn to read and not get so testy when someone doesn't share your sad little teenage rebellion opinions.
The Christian Right response to the Cracker Desecration is similar to the way Muslims responded to the Danish cartoons of Muhamed. Again, when religion is concerned, stupidity is at its worse and logic takes a hike.
SFG:
"No one here has yet answered me with any intelligence..."
and:
"I'm no "intellectual" (the thought of those people makes me violently sick)..."
You want an intelligent response from intelligent people that make you sick. Your communication skills are terrible, hence the lack of replies.
Thank goodness you didn't post an image of their prophet!
Wait a minute...are these those guys? I can't keep those cults straight.
I love it when Bill Donahue gets upset - it always provides a good laugh for all of us. Since he gets upset daily, I always have a smile on my face. :)
I'm glad you pointed out the problem with priests and alter boys. Nice job!
Aric @ 199:
Because their privileged position of respect in society allows them to get away with hiding child-rapists, approving misogyny, opposing prophylactics in Africa, harming Gay rights, etc.
See the above post about 'wedge issues.'
It's not a wafer, it's a Death Cookie
#182 SFG
Getting all uptight because some people like to worship something no-one can prove, including EVERYONE here.
In this thread the main reason why we're upset is that people who are stupid and deluded start threatening reasonable people for pointing out that stupid beliefs are stupid.
I'm no "intellectual"
I'm absolutely SHOCKED.
(the thought of those people makes me violently sick),
That explains a thing or two!
but I can tell what a bunch of nerds you really are.
To me, nerd is not an insult. Quite the opposite.
The leaders of the Catholic Church have already pinned predator priests for what they are - monsters.
Sure, after spending decades doing everything they possibly could do to cover it all up. Which they are actually still trying to do, if you want to get technical about it.
Other than that, though, great point!
Andre Vienne #35
That's priceless.
Adam,
You believe:
1. A priest, calling upon a spirit through incantation, transubstantiates wine and bread into the body and blood of Christ.
2. You enter into communion with this spirit by ritually consuming His (transubstantiated) body and blood.
Protest all you want, but this is a belief in magic and ritual cannibalism. Calling the magic "the miracle of transubstantiation" and the ritual cannibalism "Holy Communion" is just semantics and the opinions formed during debates among ignorant savages during the iron age doesn't change that a whit.
http://copache.wordpress.com/2008/07/10/it-gets-me/
They say I'm pretty hardcore. :)
"Myers,
You're a fucking giant sized scumbag. I hope you die slowly and painfully. Cunt."
"Myers is a total sack of shit for saying what he says and doing what he does. The "man" is a cunt and so are you"
"Fuck off and die. Twat features."
"I've grown up."
sure.
Damn you PZ Myers!
Every time I spend a day reading these 1000 post threads about crackers I consume 2 boxes of Triscuits.
As they say, "It's not just a cracker, it's the body of our Holy Lord."
.+.
+++
.+.
.+.
mmm, damn good cracker!
Thanks Adrienne, for that summary on the dogma related to communtion crackers. When you spell it out, it even seems sillier, which is probably why they don't want anyone to get away with mocking it. Once you get away with mocking one of the sillier dogmas, the whole house of cards my begin to fall. [please excuse the mixed metapor, at least I didn't use 'slippery slope' as was in the original draft of the sentence]
"Oh, and I got the phrase "shower of cunts" from English "comedian" Roy Chubby Brown. Punisher? Don't read comics, I've grown up."
Oh that is priceless. That is simply priceless. Such irony, and that it should be so inadvertent as well. Brilliant. John Cleese himself would be proud to have written that. Stepehn Fry would have died to have come up with something this good.
Dearest Adam Janke:
The short answer is NO people aren't obligated to (or even SHOULD) "respect" the beliefs of others just because they are really, really attached to them. Beliefs should have exactly as much respect as they warrant based on evidence. Showing disrespect for the idea that a cracker takes on magical properties after someone mumbles some words over them doesn't show disrespect for individual Catholics, it shows disrespect for a STUPID IDEA. You are not your ideas.
Zan,
That's spelled r-e-l-i-g-I-o-n. Sorry, but there's no E in that word. See what I mean about the IQ on here.
Preaching to the choir Myers might be, but he's just a two-bit prof looking for a bit of fame and notoriety. Myers: 15 minutes and counting...ho ho ho.
FUNNIEST. BLOG. ENTRY. EVER.
I have this picture in my head of Donohue receiving a little box in the mail, and the look of horror on his face as he opens it to find a tiny chip of a cracker...
Looks like Bill D. could use some new eyeballs. If you look at the magic crackers, they look just like regular crackers. I've yet to see any tiny little homiculi running around trying not to get cannibalized.
As to anything more vile, that is a no brainer. The list would be in the millions. High on the list would be:
1. Catholic priests raping children.
2. Catholic Popes turning a blind eye while the Nazis killed 6 million people in death camps.
3. Bill Donohue's seriously defective mind.
How about another idea, if you were exploring an African jungle on a biological research trip and came across a previously unknown tribe who worshiped a stone statue and believed it to be their god, would you be immediately inclined to desecrate the statue? - Adam Janke
Like your missionaries, you mean?
@ #49:
YES!!!!!
Actually the cracker in question has the answer we are all dancing around. If one were to use a powerful enough magnifying device, such as a microscope, one can see written in plain English the disclaimer. I have taken the opportunity to do just that with a similar cracker here. Just click my name if the link doesnt work.
I'm with ya PZ.
PZ, these goddamn crackers are really really easy to get a hold of. If you want the unconsecrated ones (easier to get en masse no pun intended, and really no different than the consecrated ones) you can get a bag of 250 for about six bucks. If you want a consecrated one, you've got to get it in person, which means only one (per person anyway) and it's got spit on it. Plus, you have to sit through all the bullshit of a Mass, and someone may pick you out during that hour-long snoozefest.
http://www.religious-supplies.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Categor…
B.,
You are free to explain why the Church is wrong on all those points. But the law does not permit trespass.
Aric
Anybody like my cwoocifix?
You mean we can torture crackers so much more effectively now? ;-)
Do we have a list of tortures for this/these cracker(s) yet? Waterboarding seems to be topical. It doesn't matter that a cracker can't drown since the Catholic witch-hunters apparently believe in it's magical Jeezusy witchiness. They can imagine some lungs and respiratory reflexes for it. Since electrickery has been mentioned, microwaving a cracker in vinegar might be an enlightening experience (albeit a brief one).
Adam Janke - the point is not that the belief is moronic, it's that Catholics are reacting with assault, death threats, accusations of hate crimes, trying to get people expelled/fired, etc., for not respecting the belief. PZ would have to speak for himself as to what he hopes to gain by this, but as for myself, I'd find highlighting the absolute insanity of this episode to be motivation enough.
For years I thought that all of this "body and blood of Christ" business was symbolic. It was a little disturbing to realize that some folks really believe that some hand-waving and incantations change bread and wine into something that they normally wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole(human blood, human flesh?)
What I want to know is - can I use this same technique to transform other things? I'd like all of my junk to be transubstantiated (if that's the right word) into solid gold.
It will still look the same, but I ought to be able to sell it to Catholics - after all, if they swallow a cracker really being Jesus then a lawnchair that is "really" solid gold should be a breeze.
A tad disrespectful, I know, but this whole affair seems too ridiculous to dignify with any respect.
Nick at 224 brings up an important point.
Your people burned a hell of a lot of books in South America, Monk.
Perhaps because quietly sitting with folded hands in accord with somebody else's definition of "good character" is not a path to social change.
To illustrate: I lack the Catholic attitudes about contraception and homosexuality. Speaking about my views is lawful, but to an extent, acting on them is not (outside of California and Massachusetts). Thanks to medieval mysticism and authoritarian dogmatism, people I love and respect are second-class citizens.
Saying this is, for the moment, legal. "Why go further?" you ask. Excellent question.
The image that pops in my mind is Jesus trapped in a cracker like it's the Phantom Zone from Superman II. "Help! Let me OUT!"
Oodles of religitards, creotards and just plain 'tards, oh my!
That Jebus loving, fat. Irish -descent bastard (I'm a fat Irish-descent bastard as well, just not Jebus loving) is going to have to watch his blood pressure or he'll die of an apoplectic fit, and we wouldn't want that now would we?
Actualy, I don't wish Bill D. any harm, I just wish he wasn't so damned ignorant.
Aarrgghh - an apostrophe got away from me: "it's" there should be "its" (and "drown since" be "drown, since"). The "electrickery" was intentional (cf Catweazle).
SFG,
Congrats, you found a spelling error. You aren't looking for a discussion at all are you?
Since the ideas that a wafer can really turn into the body of Christ, and wine can really turn into his blood show a total lack of respect for rationality, reason and science, can I ask if those who are so critical of PZ will also criticise the fact the Catholic church clearly lacks any respect for those concepts? Or is respect a one way thing ? We have to show it the Catholics, but they do not have to bother showing it to others ? Maybe at the time you could tell us how the Catholic dogma of denying gays the same rights as the rest of us is showing them respect.
I decided I had to give 'im a break and set him straight. Sent him a nice email...
=========================================================
Check your facts.
PZ's blog is on scienceblogs.com; not on a university server. Of course, believing in the Sky Fairy has rotted your brain so I guess I shouldn't expect even a modicum of intelligence from you or your hysterical friends.
You moron.
--
========================
Few nations have been so poor as to have but one god. Gods were made so easily, and the raw material cost so little, that generally the god market was fairly glutted, and heaven crammed with these phantoms. -- Robert Green Ingersoll
SFG: "I have no problem with religion, none at all."
Then you had no problem with the religious 9/11 terrorist attacks? How about religious attacks against science education? Is that OK with you? What about the religious training of young children to harass their science teachers? You have no problem with that?
Religious insanity is out of control in this world. The only solution is relentless constant ridicule of bible thumping idiots. Being nice to religious assholes doesn't work.
I admire your courage PZ.
Just two articles you might find interesting in this affair, one on "fighting words and desecration of religious symbols", and one on "DISPARAGING THE RELIGION OR BELIEFS OF OTHERS" :
from http://www.aclu.org/studentsrights/expression/12808pub19941231.html
from http://www.law.ucla.edu/volokh/harass/religion.pdf
Mr. Meyers,
Most anti-Catholic bigots use the abuse card to attempt to silence or attack the Church. Actually most children suffer abuse at the hands of parents and teachers, not priests. Aren't you a teacher? Hmmm...
That aside I would remind you that disrupting a worship service of any religion is a violation of federal civil rights laws. It is interesting that you choose to pick on Catholicism. Not much risk and you get all the usual sycophants to pretend that you are "brave." I doubt you will go to a Mosque and desecrate a Quran. If you are really brave you might defend intelligent design at a biologists convention. Then you would find your life in danger from the allegedly open-minded. I suspect any student in your class who is a believing Catholic probably suffers from discrimination.
Frankly I find it hard to believe that someone who is supposedly educated and is a professor would even consider doing something so asinine much less publicize it. It is simply juvenile. Obviously your parents neglected teaching you manners and respect. They are no doubt ashamed as you should be. Grow up.
Fr. J
WE'RE AT UR ALTER, KIDNAPPING UR GOD
Who'll supply a picture for me?
Aric, apparently you and I share different opinions as to what "open to the public" and "handed out freely" mean, but I'm confident my understanding is more in keeping with the law.
Similarly, I'm sure I've got a good handle on what constitutes ethical protest, and when a protest is ethical but not legal, I am not especially troubled.
When you spell it out, it even seems sillier, which is probably why they don't want anyone to get away with mocking it.
This seems to be a general Law of Religious Whackaloonery"
The more ridiculous the belief, the more vehement and violent the overreaction to mockery of it.
I am still wondering what they did with the soggy cracker after Mr. Cook returned it.
Did they find a little Cracker Casket to put it in before having a funeral mass for the deceased and soggy cracker?
Then, did they go to the nearby Catholic Cracker Cemetary to bury said cracker in a grave dug out with a spoon?
I thought Muslims were crackers for their outrage and death threats over a cartoon of Mohammad, but I guess Catholics like Bill Donohue are just as crackers.
Perhaps PZ should apologize and offer to do the Vatican Rag. For those who are younger than I am, the Vatican Rag was a spoof of Catholic rites written my Tom Lehrer. Tom calls the cracker a wafer which is how most Catholics and lapsed Catholics think of the small bit of food transubstantiated into flesh.
Or perhaps PZ could get Bill's goat by reminding him that he is a cannibal. I was taken aback when I first heard this, but if you believe the wafer or cracker is the Christ; then it follows that you're a cannibal.
Maybe GOD could help Bill transubstantiate PZ into a cracker! I am sure Bill would think that was Intelligent Design!
Apparently, a copy of the "Vatican Rag" is at youtube. Find it, watch, listen, and laugh.
Here is an introduction along with the lyrics:
Another big news story of year concerned the ecumenical council in Rome, known as Vatican II. (Note: The Vatican II council was from 1962 to 1965. KP) Among the things they did in an attempt to make the church more commercial was to introduce the vernacular into portions of the mass, to replace Latin, and to widen somewhat the range of music permissible in the liturgy, but I feel that if they really want to sell the product, in this secular age, what they ought to do is to redo some of the liturgical music in popular song forms. I have a modest example here. It's called The Vatican Rag.
First you get down on your knees,
Fiddle with your rosaries,
Bow your head with great respect,
And genuflect, genuflect, genuflect!
Do whatever steps you want, if
You have cleared them with the Pontiff.
Everybody say his own
Kyrie eleison,
Doin' the Vatican Rag.
Get in line in that processional,
Step into that small confessional,
There, the guy who's got religion'll
Tell you if your sin's original.
If it is, try playin' it safer,
Drink the wine and chew the wafer,
Two, four, six, eight,
Time to transubstantiate!
So get down upon your knees,
Fiddle with your rosaries,
Bow your head with great respect,
And genuflect, genuflect, genuflect!
Make a cross on your abdomen,
When in Rome do like a Roman,
Ave Maria,
Gee it's good to see ya,
Gettin' ecstatic an'
Sorta dramatic an'
Doin' the Vatican Rag!
"If you are really brave you might defend intelligent design at a biologists convention. Then you would find your life in danger from the allegedly open-minded."
Poe.
I'm a practicing Roman Catholic, but I dislike Donahue. The priest scandal is beside the point here; suffice it to say that most sincere Catholics were appalled by the actions of certain members of the hierarchy.
That said, the prescient point here is that PZ has offered to go out of his way to desecrate something the world's one billion Catholics believe to be very sacred. I don't care if you think it's just a "goddamnned cracker"; I do, however, expect you to give me the respect to eat what I believe to be the Body of Christ in peace.
When you fail to show basic respect, and, worse, when you applaud those who so fail, you come across as inconsiderate jerks.
I'm sorry a couple of bad Christians stopped by and wished ill upon you. For what it's worth, I'll pray my rosary for you folks tonight.
Adam Janke @#139:
Something that has amused me for some time is how many Christian and Muslim apologists are fond of accusing atheists of being selectively harsh or disrespectful toward their own religion, and soft and sympathetic toward the other. Each typically doubts that this occurs with the other.
It seems to me to be a case of someone who believes this to be true strongly enough that they don't bother to check whether it actually is. This behavior seems to be related to that of people who ask an off-topic, bait-question about what someone else would or wouldn't do, and then prematurely blow their wads by presuming to answer their own question.
Has anyone seen that "Saw" series of films, where people are forced to do horrible things (such as sawing off their feet) in order to escape a worse fate?
I wonder what "Jigsaw" would do with Bill Donohue? How about presenting him with a holy cracker contaminated with the ebola virus? He would then have to choose between an agonising death, or (gasp!) desecrating the host.
#243
You could at least spell Myers correctly.
Well, crap... I was all set to introduce my new snack cracker for Catholics, "Jeeze-Its," and have Bill Donohue endorse them, but this whole holding crackers hostage and then PZ ticking him off, there's little chance of that happening. Then there's all those jars of "Plasma of Christ" grape jelly I was going to introduce as a spread for the Jeeze-Its... I'm ruined!
TlalocW
Fr. J wrote:
Silly priest, don't you know that PZ is a founding member of the Darwinist Mafia that actively seeks out and forcibly squelches dissent from His High the Most Holy Charlie D? And of course, waterboarding is involved. As a warm-up.
Grr. My previous post should have had the phrase "endorsed by the Catholic Church among others" after the word "dogmatism". Anyway.
R-E-L-I-G-I-O-N. Derived, possibly, from Latin religare "to bind fast", or from relegare "to read again", in either case coming to us via religionem "respect for the sacred", entering English via Old French. Etymologically speaking, the spelling relegion would be defensible based on Cicero.
SFG:
"That's spelled r-e-l-i-g-I-o-n. Sorry, but there's no E in that word"
No you fucking retard, there IS an E in that word. It's the second letter asswipe. You even spelled it. You are stupid beyond words.
"That's spelled r-e-l-i-g-I-o-n. Sorry, but there's no E in that word."
http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/1/picard-facepalm.jpg
Well, I'm not very handy with a video camera and/or video editing software and/or youtube, but here's my idea anyway:
Get 4 cell phones. Arrange them in a circle around the frackin' cracker. Call all four cell phones at once. Pop!
What would appear? Well, propose a statue, but others may have better ideas.
PS: Since I have a known history of really being down on religions, I have to say that Donohue is clearly a fool. He's saying this is worse than child-molesting. Just look at his statements. Pretty unimpressive. I wish Donohue's outrage over child-molesting priests was proportional to his outrage over cracker abuse.
I want a new bumpersticker: "Cracker Desecrator."
Fr. J said "If you are really brave you might defend intelligent design at a biologists convention. Then you would find your life in danger from the allegedly open-minded."
Fr. J, I don't think biologists have murdered too many shit-for-brains creationists like yourself, even though the world becomes a better place every time one of you religious assholes drops dead.
#243
Ad hominem. Ad hominem. Ad hominem. False premise. Wrong assumptions. Yup, solid sophisticated thinking from an (I suspect, judging from the Fr.) catholic priest. Par for the course.
You're late to the party, padre, and you obviously know nothing about the person or what he does. Bringing in the parents is just shameful. You show here your greatest crime, and that of all priests: you add nothing and try to pass off uneducated guesses as truth. Go away.
If they really think that this is human flesh, shouldn't they store it in biohazard containers?
@ J and BLake:
lol hivemind
"real people who believe that folks should be allowed to do what they want."
The irony of posting this on this site and especially this topic is very funny. Also, I'd like to inform everybody that we are not "real people".
B.,
I believe you will find that the law allows the Catholic Church to exclude people from its property and from its sacraments. (If you wish that to change, you could certainly propose repealing the First Amendment.)
As for what is ethical, is it anything other than what is acceptable to B. in a moment of pique?
Granted the the professor is a "godless liberal" (per his own blog site) I understand where he is coming from. However, considering that his comments do violate some state and, to an extent, federal hate laws, there should be no suprise in the reaction. Professor Myer also slanders Priests as well and gave personal attacks against a religous organization which was uncalled for. Professor Myer should of kept his comments toward the Catholic League and to the situation in Florida, not all Catholics in general. This shows a lack of professionalism that all Academics should follow (and what I follow myself). It sounds to me that he completly does not understand what the Eucharist is or means to Catholics, not just Romans, but the 30+ other Churches that fall under Catholicism (Eastern, Byzantine, Greek, etc) who all hold the same belief in what the Eucharist is. If there was an understanding on this on all parties, then it would not have received international attention. It is sad that Professor Myer puts himself down to the same level as those Jack Chick Comics. I encourage him (and all) to go into dialogue and keep the focus on what it should be. I also ask for mutual respect: Catholics towards the Professor and the Professor towards Catholics. I think if he (and all who reads this) sees what the Catholic Church really teaches on Faith and Reason (and not what most people think it is--The Catholic Church does not believe in Creationism) there could be great, professional, and candid dialogue. Take a look at Cardinal Schonborn's work on Evolution and Creation, would make for great dialogue here if we could get past this issue.
Let's all keep the attacks away, focus on the true issue that is at hand, and leave the Anti-Catholic comments out of this. I also call on Professor Myer to maintain and set the example of the professionlism that his university expects from their Faculty. Remember, the true issue here is Professor Myer and the Catholic League. Not Professor Myer and the Catholic Church. Theology should only come in to clarify for those who do not understand what the Eucharist is.
No, then you'd be surrounded by people who'd be wondering what you had been smoking. There's a difference.
Fr. J,
Cleary you value respect so much you could not even be bothered to spell PZ Myers' name correctly even when it was at the top of this very page.
Is hypocrisy no longer a sin, or do you get special excemption from Jesus ?
Still just carry telling gays they are not fully deserving of the same human rights the rest of us take for granted. After all no gay person really wants to marry their partner do they ? Why do gays not qualify for the respect you claim as a right ?
Why do you lack respect for women to decide what to do with their bodies ? Why should a bunch of men who it has to be said are not exactly going to be experts on the matter of sex and reproduction get to decide ?
Why do you prefer millions die from AIDS rather than relax the ban on the use of contraception. Condoms save lives.
When it comes to respect you seem to want, but you seem very unwilling to give it. Unless and until you do, you and your church stands charged with bigotry and condeming people to death.
If you are really brave you might defend intelligent design at a biologists convention. Then you would find your life in danger from the allegedly open-minded.
Biologists will not kill you or threaten to do so just because you're not ashamed of your ignorance and scientific illiteracy.
Glue crackers all over a copy of the Koran, wrap the whole thing in an American flag, and burn it. Let's go for all the sacred cows!
Ah, but you're forgetting ACTUAL sacred cows! Rustle one of those painted bulls that wander around New Delhi spreading cholera and being worshipped and use the flag/qur'an/eucharist bundle as fuel for a barbecue of it.
Oh and use the barbecue as an occasion to celebrate the birth of your son. . . . whom you will NOT be circumcising! If you include the mere act of meat-eating (contra-Buddhism and Jainism) that's SIX religions mocked at once.
Didn't they learn anything on the playground? When the wierd little kid goes batshit when someone steals his blankie, it doesn't mean the other kids will hand it back and apologize, it means he's suddenly front and center for nonstop ridicule. Cause it's funny.
and if they had any class whatsoever they'd just sigh and ignore the whole stupid incident. It would've been utterly forgotten.
Since the Catholic League is so free about giving others email addresses, please send them an email about the friggin cracker-
cl@catholicleague.org
I have read most of the responses in this blog regarding this issue. What strikes me most is the anger, the lashing out, the mockery. Where does this rage stem from, if this is an issue about a plain 'cracker'?
We are all entitled to our own opinions and beliefs. I respect and honor that. As a Catholic, I believe that the Eucharist is the body of Christ.
I respect Prof. Myers right to disagree with what I believe about the Eucharist. I simply ask Prof. Myers to respect my beliefs and refrain from his proposed action.
Thank you.
@265 james:
What he has posted violates shit all, take your head from your ass.
You're an idiot. How dare you speak of the Lord that way. I hope you loose your job over this. Maybe there should be another Inquisition (the Church was provoked by the Muslims by the way) to hunt down the scumbags like you.
And anyway, it has been estimated that "educators" rape children 100 times more than priests.
BD is a whiny little prick.
He's a disgusting little man.
Any thing that gets him riled up is awesome.
When is his heart gonna burst anyway?
Wow, you guys should see my inbox! Nothing can generate a good two-minute hate like that old time religion.
Anyway, a couple of points:
1. I've got two messages from good Catholics who want to send me communion wafers laced with arsenic or rat poison. Are you people nuts? I'm getting random crackers from strangers on the internet -- there's no way I'm putting any of this in my mouth, even if you weren't threatening to poison them.
2. The most common kind of message I'm getting is roughly "Don't you dare desecrate an article of Catholic faith! And I dare you to desecrate a Muslim article of faith, but you don't have the guts." They don't even notice the hypocrisy in their message.
3. In a few weeks, I'll commit sacrilege on items from a couple of faiths, just so they don't feel left out (this was part of the plan all along, actually). I'm not telling you what I'm going to do, except that it won't involve eating anything. Yuk.
Oh, and you do? Then why don't you fuck off and let us live, you hypocritical little fuck.
Oh, and let's not get into a profanity pissing contest, you fucking dog-rimming malaka, because you'll surely lose, you polyp-brained douchelicker. Ai gamisou and yob tvoyu mat, you little shitstain.
Also, I banged your mom. She was good.
Death Threats!!! That is a felony right there. Someone should turn "ted's" cute little message over to the local, state, and federal cops. With enough effort, any internet postings can be traced back to the sender.
Yo ted, we have a nice tropical resort for terrorists like you. It's called Guantanomo. You will find it already populated with pleasant serious religious fanatics. But don't worry, waterboarding isn't torture, just light entertainment.
The IQ quotient here is below 0. - SFG
That's "Intelligence quotient quotient?"
Oh, and I got the phrase "shower of cunts" from English "comedian" Roy Chubby Brown. - SFG
For those who don't know, Brown is a racist, sexist, homophobic scumbag. A role model for SFG, presumably.
Fr. J.
I doubt you will go to a Mosque and desecrate a Quran.
Actually, I bet he would.
If you are really brave you might defend intelligent design at a biologists convention. Then you would find your life in danger from the allegedly open-minded.
Actually, I bet he wouldn't.
I suspect any student in your class who is a believing Catholic probably suffers from discrimination.
Actually, I bet they don't.
" For what it's worth, I'll pray my rosary for you folks tonight."
(shakes head, slaps forehead)
Thanks AWMTI, I'm sure you are a nice guy and sinserely mean well, but I can't think of a better waste of your time and effort. If you can prove that prayer actually accomplishes anything beyond bolstering your own sense of delusion, be sure to let us know...
lol.
Anyway, I think transubstantiation is great. It's a way for people on Atkins(TM, R, C, etc.) to still eat crackers.
Post #9 by SFG
"Myers,
You're a fucking giant sized scumbag. I hope you die slowly and painfully. Cunt."
What was that about no death threats?
I thought smart-asses had a tougher hide. Nice bigotry and self-righteous, anti-intellectual schtick ya got going prof. Kitchen/heat. Goose/gander.
Adam and SFG
What you're seeing is some push back. People are tired of the religious right trying to push their beliefs into every ones lives. Trying to teach belief in science classes, trying to impose belief on woman's health issues, trying to impose belief on personal relationships, and trying to impose belief on scientific research.
The constant, shrill, cries of the various belief systems as they try to impose their beliefs on our lives has reached the point where people just can't take one more stupid thing. So when the church raises another shrill cry of outrage over a cracker, when they have remained silent on so many other issues, it causes people to release some of their stress and ridicule the church and the stupid belief.
No, most people here would not do anything to the jungle tribe's sacred stone. But the jungle tribe is happy letting their magic stone rule their little world and they are not trying to push stone belief onto the rest of the world. They are not telling me that the stone god does not like the way I live my life. But the various religions in the US are making it clear that they don't like they way a great many people are living. So far, saying "so what" to them has not worked very well. So there has to be some push back. But it is not a fight we started.
It's too bad that it's probably too late for this to end up in "Religulous".
"Let's all keep the attacks away, focus on the true issue that is at hand, and leave the Anti-Catholic comments out of this. I also call on Professor Myer to maintain and set the example of the professionlism that his university expects from their Faculty. Remember, the true issue here is Professor Myer and the Catholic League. Not Professor Myer and the Catholic Church. Theology should only come in to clarify for those who do not understand what the Eucharist is."
I think nearly everyone here knows what the Eucharist is. It is just that a good number of us see no reason why it should be due any respect when it is nothing but a load of superstitious clap-trap.
However I have a proposal for you. How about we have some consecreated bread and wine tested. If they really have turned into flesh and blood then you will stand vindicated. If, as I suspect, they are found to still be a wafer and fermented grape juice, you stop demanding respect where it is not due, and do all in your power to inform Catholics they are victims of fraud. Do we have a deal ? Or do you not stand behind your convictions ?
#265
"It sounds to me that he completly does not understand what the Eucharist is or means to Catholics, not just Romans, but the 30+ other Churches that fall under Catholicism (Eastern, Byzantine, Greek, etc) who all hold the same belief in what the Eucharist is."
Didn't your mother ever tell you that you couldn't do something, to which you probably replied Catholics in 30+ other countries are doing it".
So if every one is jumping off metaphysical cliffs would you do it too?
AWMTI #249
If all catholics were like you, just praying or even just complaining, or hell, even just insulting us when we "disrespect" your beliefs, then all this wouldn't have happened.
It's the people who get scandalized and threaten who we're trying to ridicule, with the purpose of pointing out the insanity. It's just an act of civil disobedience.
They demand idiotic and nonsensical punishments for whatever idiotic belief (from most non-catholics' point of view), we'll do it more. That's how it works.
Well, gosh, SFG, if you don't like the IQ quotient on here, why not go down to your local ATM machine, punch in your PIN number, and withdraw some cash to BUY A FUCKING CLUE?!
Getting all uptight because some people like to worship something no-one can prove, including EVERYONE here.
No. Wrong. Try again. Try reading the post that started this whole thing. What we atheists are upset about is not what Catholics think about "the cracker", but about how they reacted to some boy "stealing" a cracker and holding it "hostage". Does such a prank really deserve death threats and calls for physical harm? "It's just a cracker" was not an attack on their beliefs, just to their over reaction to some kid taking a cracker out of church. That is what is being ridiculed. Can you see the difference?
Re:
Jesus loaves you...
I loled.
Re:
Glue crackers all over a copy of the Koran, wrap the whole thing in an American flag, and burn it. Let's go for all the sacred cows!
... I dig. Sorta a sacrilege s'more...
Mmmmmm... s'mores...
(Unrelated note: Funniest. 'Outraged.' Concern trolls. Evah.)
Adam and SFG
What you're seeing is some push back. People are tired of the religious right trying to push their beliefs into every ones lives. Trying to teach belief in science classes, trying to impose belief on woman's health issues, trying to impose belief on personal relationships, and trying to impose belief on scientific research.
The constant, shrill, cries of the various belief systems as they try to impose their beliefs on our lives has reached the point where people just can't take one more stupid thing. So when the church raises another shrill cry of outrage over a cracker, when they have remained silent on so many other issues, it causes people to release some of their stress and ridicule the church and the stupid belief.
No, most people here would not do anything to the jungle tribe's sacred stone. But the jungle tribe is happy letting their magic stone rule their little world and they are not trying to push stone belief onto the rest of the world. They are not telling me that the stone god does not like the way I live my life. But the various religions in the US are making it clear that they don't like they way a great many people are living. So far, saying "so what" to them has not worked very well. So there has to be some push back. But it is not a fight we started.
Matt@272 wrote:
Why should we show any respect for your beliefs? Your beliefs are not worthy of respect. We respect your rights, including your right to hold silly beliefs, but we do not respect your batshit beliefs. Period.
Re: #155
So, you defend the right of folks to do what they want?
Us folk want to make fun of Cathoholics and their cracker fetish.
Gonna defend that, now?
[watches SFG's head asplode]
Just don't bother burning any Buddhist relics. The early Zen masters already did lots of that to demonstrate the folly of worshiping idols.
Why is it the ranting xtians can never spell properly or use the correct versions of words? Loose instead of lose?
And since when does ANYONE have to respect christians for their beliefs? Their beliefs include stoning those who would not convert to their religion? They deserve nothing but contempt.
I wish people would accept observed reality instead of the obviously untrue myths.
We should take a transubstantiated cracker down to the CoS to see how Jesus does on an audit.
That's fine. Where it stops, though, is when you insist that I do as well and threaten violence, lawsuits and trying to get me fired when I don't. If you do, don't be surprised when I aggressively and very publicly flout those conventions you insist I follow, because now you're not respecting my right to believe or not.
Respect is earned, not automatically deserved. I respect your right to believe whatever you want. But I don't have to respect your beliefs, nor should I be required to. Believe it or not, not respecting your beliefs is not an attack on you as a person. It's an attack on an idea. As far as being inconsiderate jerks, it's kind of the point. All I can say is, what comes around goes around.
Thanks for nothing.
It's all a little juvenile and silly, but the phrase "walked out of Mass with the Host" is hilarious.
I wonder how many people have called the UMM president's office over the years to complain about you, PZ? They must have a staff member whose job is just to handle the calls about you.
Guys, they sell remainders of these disgusting crackers in grocery stores. STOP IT. It's just a cracker and the very idea that it transform into jesus is idiotic. Face it, it would be cannibalism.
First, who is this "Professor Myer" to whom you so insistently refer? To make one typo looks like carelessness; a persistent error smells of indifference.
Second, what possible hate crime could have been committed here? No, seriously. If pointing out reprehensible behavior counts as "slander", then we are all, as the specialists say, royally screwed. The Zenger principle still holds: truth is not libel.
Oh, and one cannot make personal attacks on the character of an organization. Criticizing the business policies of Microsoft, for example, should not be considered a personal attack or ad hominem, unless one makes a derogatory remark about the people associated with the corporation ("Bill Gates is a big stupid idiot").
Really: all the people insisting that we atheists should learn to "live and let live" ought to reflect that their right to eat Horcrux crackers in peace is also our right to build sculptures out of those crackers should we so desire. None of us have the right to live our lives without being offended.
Matt said:
"I respect Prof. Myers right to disagree with what I believe about the Eucharist. I simply ask Prof. Myers to respect my beliefs and refrain from his proposed action."
Why ?
We know it cannot become the body of Christ. Can I demand you respect science and reason and stop saying such stupid things ? Why should your rights trump mine ?
"And anyway, it has been estimated that "educators" rape children 100 times more than priests."
Oh. I guess it's okay then since priests have lower quotas.
For what it's worth, I'll pray my rosary for you folks tonight.
Absolutely: pray away, for what it's worth.
#265
"It sounds to me that he completly does not understand what the Eucharist is or means to Catholics, not just Romans, but the 30+ other Churches that fall under Catholicism (Eastern, Byzantine, Greek, etc) who all hold the same belief in what the Eucharist is."
Just because you believe something doesn't make it right. Just because many people believe something doesnt make it right.
If everyone in 30+ countries jumped off a cliff, would you?
http://mine.icanhascheezburger.com/view.aspx?ciid=1517940
Where is you God now?
PZ made it into the local news, place your comments here:
http://www.startribune.com/local/24313139.html?location_refer=Local%20+…
Intentionally desecrating the body of Christ? Did he really just say that?
What the fuck do you assholes think you're doing when you do the eucharist? When you drink his blood and eat his flesh, what the fuck? And that's your imaginary god you're eating and drinking? Wow, the rational part of your brains must have dried up and been replaced with irrelevant bullshit. You religious fucks and nitwicks never cease to shock me with your hypocracy.
AWMTI #249: "I'm a practicing Roman Catholic" "I do, however, expect you to give me the respect to eat what I believe to be the Body of Christ in peace."
AWMTI, do you believe in the Resurrection? That's the story about when the dead maggot-infested jesus became a zombie, later flying up to the clouds.
You believe that crap, don't you?
Should I respect your breathtaking stupidity? I don't think so. I've had it with religious assholes who think I should respect their mental illness. Maybe if you shit-for-brains bible thumpers ever learned how to keep your sky fairy magic out of our schools and governments, I could ignore you.
"I do, however, expect you to give me the respect to eat what I believe to be the Body of Christ in peace."
AWMTI, do have any idea how bloody stupid that sounds? You believe a tasteless piece of bread is really the dead body of an asshole who claimed to be a god? And you want to eat it? I'm sorry, but you're badshit crazy and people like you should be locked up and forced to wear straitjackets.
@#138: "It's spelled Paul Zachary Myers, but it's pronounced Tentacled Overlord."
OOOOOhhhh. It all makes sense now.
Let's not casually mock all hosts: The K-horror film The Host was very good, after all.
To #274 - You're actually wishing for another inquisition?
I have to admit, I wasn't expecting that.
Probably because "NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spanish_Inquisition_(Monty_Python)
Fr. J: They'd desecrate Qurans if they lived in predominantly Muslim countries. Here all the loony theocrats are Christian, so guess who's a bigger target?
Also, re: the Whole Body of Jesus plan: Wouldn't it be better to chew 'em up into paste before using them as a sort of clay? Then it's 100% Jesus with no Superglue in between. I'm pretty sure no-one claims they're able to transmute Superglue into Jesus.
I do trust all the Catholics here saying they expect to be respected extend that respect to women seeking an abortion, to gay people seeking to marry and to people wanting to stop themselves being infected with HIV by using a condom.
B.Dewhirst, your comment @192 is priceless. I'm still LMAO.
Since no one else has said it yet, I feel that I must:
I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition!
Is "A Shower of Cunts" Paul Schaefer's new sequel to "It's Raining Men"?
Actually, we just pronounce it "Tentacled Overlord" because his real name is an eldritch screech which only mere fancy can transmute to sound, driving to madness all feeble mortal minds who hear it. He is the great amorphous blasphemy which bubbles amid the abyss at the center of all infinity.
The constant hammering of gullible individuals by evangelists - that muslims, homosexuals are evil, earth is some 10000 years old and that humans are superior beings and the universe was created for humans - is a more horrible widespread and deadly form of violence that the one here against crackers..
At SFG, #155
So you are the self-appointed defender of people's right to do what they want? Great! You can help us defend PZ's right to do what he wants to a cracker!
This reminds me of what Allan Bloom used to say, that given the state of high school education in this country, one cannot begin to teach undergraduates until one makes them outraged. But it only reminds me of it because in this case the Professor's goal is a shallow, dessicated vision of teaching. Rather than supplant outrage with a fully-fleshed out version of the best-lived-life for man, the Professor is solely seeking to persuade to the truth of the proposition that "Catholic faith in the Eucharist is incorrect." I guess what I'm saying is, you're no Allan Bloom.
I would have thought that once you put a food object on another person's tongue, that person can do with it as he pleases -- swallow it, stash in her purse, take it home, add it to her salivated cracker collection, whatever. I can't think of another situation where post-hoc limitations are customarily invoked. (Swallow that glass of chardonnay, buddy, or I'll have you fired!)
"Obviously your parents neglected teaching you manners and respect."
---You, sir, are a moron. I am under no requirement to respect your foolish and primitive superstition. I respect and defend your RIGHT to believe it or any other idiotic delusions of your choice, but your superstition itself is one of the worst aspects of humanity and it will die under the weight of its own inanity soon enough.
I say take a monumental dump on the crackers, shoot some nice photos of it, send them to Donohue, and let's watch those veins in his head rupture as the big aneurism finally happens.
And finally a special message of love for "shower of cunts" boy - you can choke on my cock, you steaming piece of sewage.
Fr. J,
If the "father" part of your name is true you know full well that no federal court in the country would rule that failing to consume a communion wafer was a disruption of services, no federal prosecutor would even attempt to argue that it was, and anything he chooses to do the wafer afterwards is not prohibited by any US law. Trying to hint otherwise is simply lying.
Shame on you, sir, for lying and you should truly be ashamed for this:
He thankfully never lived to see the state of the Church today, but my childhood priest Fr. Dan would have wept to see a man calling himself Fr. excusing child molestation in the clergy in that way and implying that an innocent man molests children.
@ #139 Adam Janke,
There should not have been any issue, except
The church offended every decent person through these actions:
1) someone grabbed him bodily
2) spokesman for the diocese Susan "I'm an ignoramus" Fani) claimed it was a "Hate Crime"
3) One of your doltish priests, Migeul Gonzalez, called it a kidnapping.
This over, what should be, by all lights a piece of Matzoh.
I do not have to respect your beliefs. I dogive provisional respect upon learning of a belief system.
Of course, if the system does not live up to that respect, it loses that respect.
I have read most of the responses in this blog regarding this issue. What strikes me most is the anger, the lashing out, the mockery. Where does this rage stem from, if this is an issue about a plain 'cracker'?
We are all entitled to our own opinions and beliefs. I respect and honor that. As a Catholic, I believe that the Eucharist is the body of Christ.
I respect Prof. Myers right to disagree with what I believe about the Eucharist. I simply ask Prof. Myers to respect my beliefs and refrain from his proposed action.
Thank you.
The problem, my dear credulous namesake, is not what you believe, but the hatred, death threats, and attacks on Myers's employment. Believe whatever whacky fables you like, but don't threaten others for laughing at them. If they are real, they should be robust enough to withstand a little mockery.
Fr. J, how do you justify the conspiracy to protect and hide, through relocation, pedophile priests, a conspiracy perpetrated by those at the very highest levels of the Catholic hierarchy? This conspiracy has lasted decades, if not centuries, and has only recently come to light - and come under attack - by those brave enough to speak out against the abuses, both sexual and administrative, of those members of the Church hierarchy. And still the Church attempts to avoid the harsh light of public opinion and the damning judgements of the secular system of law and order, by insisting the problem can be handled "internally".
Sorry, we've seen where that leads.
All this, from one of the largest organizations in the world, an organization which claims hegemony over human morality, and which dares to dictate, amongst other things, the dos and donts of the bedroom to its billion-member flock.
Does any such conspiracy exist amongst parents, or educators, on anything even remotely approaching the grand scale of the Catholic child abuse conspiracy? Does any such conspiracy even exist? Has one ever existed?
Still, I do recognize the good intentions behind your noble, if misguided, attempt to draw attention to the kidnapped cracker over in the corner, and away from the steaming pile of rotting garbage that has filled the room for centuries.
Your room - not mine.
Incidentaly, crackers and catholicism aside, the second-best predictor, after drug and alcohol abuse, of sexual abuse of children in Christian homes is conservative religiousity coupled with rigid gender roles.
Ask yourself: What's wrong with your religion?
What an utterly moronic thing to say. Are you a creationist, too?
For what it's worth, I agree that desecrating a consecrated cracker is juvenile and crass. Almost as juvenile as consecrating it in the first place, and almost as crass as visiting threats of bodily harm on a college student who dared take one out of the building.
Get your priorities straight, man.
Is it more vile if you eat a bacon, lettuce, tomato communion cracker sandwich? I would imagine that such a snack would mortify Muslims as well.
Hi ted, you little cowardly bully, come see me first please. I live in Edmonton. You can contact me via my blog, linked in my name.
I will happily help you get on your local parish's list of people needing intercessory prayers for the recovery of their health.
Given the incredibly small number of "degrees of separation" between any given web site, I wouldn't doubt that you can access porn -- or Kevin Bacon's IMDB profile -- within six clicks from a University page. Is the University now responsible for policing the content of the entire internet?
You don't believe in transubstantiation (which is understandable, since it IS ridiculous, from anything but the religious viewpoint) -- but THEY do. To them it IS something most sacred, and they do take that very seriously.
I have to wonder, PZ, what you aim to get out of your proposed activities around "the cracker" other than riling them up? And then you seem shocked when they get riled up.
So you don't believe in it, and you don't understand or agree that the kid who took it should be attacked as he was. I agree, and your post about it was right on. But still... why do you feel the need to exacerbate the issue?
For what it's worth, I'll pray my rosary for you folks tonight. - AWMTI
For what it's worth, eh? Let me see, that would be approximately - no precisely - nothing.
The Jesus story and the transubstantiation thing where a cracker or wafer becomes the actual Jesus, are both really stupid and ignorant beliefs. They go against our understanding of nature, and understanding based on evidence, reason and logic. How anyone could reject those things and accept a story they were told as kids for no reason at all, is beyond me. It's disgusting.
"Most anti-Catholic bigots use the abuse card to attempt to silence or attack the Church. Actually most children suffer abuse at the hands of parents and teachers, not priests. Aren't you a teacher? Hmmm..."
The abuse card was played in response to Donahue's ridiculous statement that he could think of nothing more vile than desecrating the eucharist. Context, it's important.
"That aside I would remind you that disrupting a worship service of any religion is a violation of federal civil rights laws."
No need for that, he can just quietly palm the cracker and walk out with it. Fair enough? Or do you honestly consider that kidnapping or offensive?
Nice way to imply that PZ sleeps with his students, have any actual evidence of this? No of course not. Of course, the fact that the vast majority if not all of PZ's students are adults makes it somewhat different than molesting children don't you think? Not that I approve of teachers fraternizing with their students, but it's a heck of a lot different than molesting children.
"It is interesting that you choose to pick on Catholicism. Not much risk and you get all the usual sycophants to pretend that you are "brave." I doubt you will go to a Mosque and desecrate a Quran."
You don't read PZ's blog often he enough, he frequently criticizes other religions. He criticizes Christianity more often than others because as it happens he lives in America, which is populated mostly by Christians.
"If you are really brave you might defend intelligent design at a biologists convention. Then you would find your life in danger from the allegedly open-minded."
Har har har.
"I suspect any student in your class who is a believing Catholic probably suffers from discrimination."
PZ has said repeatedly that he is objective in class. If you have any evidence that suggests otherwise I suggest you show us, otherwise quit making unsubstantiated accusations.
"Frankly I find it hard to believe that someone who is supposedly educated and is a professor would even consider doing something so asinine much less publicize it. It is simply juvenile."
Perhaps you should forward this message to all your buddies freaking out over what some college student did with a cracker.
"Obviously your parents neglected teaching you manners and respect. They are no doubt ashamed as you should be. Grow up."
Grow up? Perhaps you should do the same. I do not consider it very adult to make baseless accusations.
Sacraments According to the Uncyclopedia:
Eucharist - The consumption of flesh and the drinking of blood. Early critics once argued that this was hypocritical considering the Vatican's strong opposition towards vampires and the demonic. These critics were consequently eaten.
Confession - Intended as a means of catching the most stupid sinners by having them give themselves up. This sacrament involves people who disobey God confessing to the priest that they have erred. They are subsequently purged following the admission of the sin. Hence, explaining the need for confessions to be kept private.
Baptism - There are two forms of Baptism; adult and child. A child's Baptism involves an infant being splashed with a special liquid which seeps into the brain cavity causing lifelong devotion and servility to the priests. Adult Baptism involves drowning the Baptismal candidate for not being Catholic in the first place.
Confirmation - The sacrament by which the priest raises the rank of new recruits from Baptised to Confirmed. The Confirmed are given License to Purge upon receiving the honours of Confirmation.
Marriage - The ultimate punishment a priest is able to deliver. Writings of its horrors will cause my hands to drop off.
Anointing of the Sick - Since all diseases are caused by Satan, this involves a whole lot of purging and gallons of blood in order to anoint the world by removing the Satanically affected.
Ordination - The sacrament by which a person is ordained a priest and therefore obtains all of the uber powers inseparable from that office.
Expanding on ddr @ #285:
Tolerance is not, and never has been, the exclusive domain of liberals any more than it is of Christians, atheists, or people who tuck their trousers into their socks while cycling. There are tolerant atheists as surely as there are tolerant Christians.
However, there has never been a law stating that a Christian could not hold public office. No President has ever publicly stated that members of were not, in his view, citizens of this country. In no polls do a majority of respondents state that they would not vote for a Christian candidiate. Yet all are expected to respect (if not revere) the Christian traditions without question.
If that is what it means to be tolerant in America, is it any wonder why some of us are speaking out?
Care to point us to these debates?
There have been cover ups of those sins. Large chunks of the Catholic hierarchy are responsible.
What numbers? Where?
a) You have not explained how open sexuality can lead to the view of children as sexual beings.
b) Viewing children as sexual beings is not sufficient to lead to sexual child abuse. The abuser also needs to see children as objects to be manipulated.
Here's some numbers you could produce to back that claim: rates of sexual child abuse in a sexually open nation (e.g. Netherlands) versus a Catholic nation (e.g. Ireland) - although I'm struggling to think of one that bans contraception.
Aric: "I believe you will find that the law allows the Catholic Church to exclude people from its property and from its sacraments. (If you wish that to change, you could certainly propose repealing the First Amendment.)"
It may, however it doesn't. I can walk into a Catholic Church right now, walk up during the service, and accept a communion wafer in my hand. There isn't anything illegal about doing that, since (like a vampire) they invited me in and handed me the Christ-cracker. No laws violated.
If they asked me not to enter, that'd be another story, but they don't know me from Adam, so to speak.
"As for what is ethical, is it anything other than what is acceptable to B. in a moment of pique?"
Sure. Richard Carrier's Sense and Goodness without God is very close to my feelings on the subject, and since I don't have time to pen a 300 page book, it'll have to do.
Sorry, I don't have the time to continue following this thread.
PZ's transubstantiation lab (it's as much a lab as Marks' "ID lab" ever was) must be expelled from UM's links.
We could make a movie about it, couldn't we?
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kx
If that's all it was, it would be fine. The problem is that they want everyone to take it that seriously.
I can't speak for PZ, but the point is exactly to provoke the expected response so everyone can see it.
To bring the intolerance out in the light where everyone can see it.
Adam Janke #139 wrote:
As you put it earlier in your post,"What is at question is whether or not we should respect others beliefs." And I think that's a more complicated -- and difficult -- issue than it may seem.
What does it mean for something to be "sacred?" After the high and inspiring words, we get to untouchable, unquestionable, entitled to absolute reverence and devotion. Not to be analyzed, or disputed, or doubted. And there's a rather dark side to that, because we're dealing with human nature, and human nature is flawed. Once something is determined to be "sacred" we forget that WE are the ones who made it so. Nothing then should ever be more sacred -- more unquestionable and entitled to absolute devotion -- than we are ourselves.
And we shouldn't think ourselves sacred. That's never been a good idea.
It's interesting. When you asked whether we would callously desecrate the statue "God" of a previously unknown African tribe, Lago at #165 answered with "Well, most tribes are still living in the stone age and do not claim to know better." I think there's a significant point there.
If the Catholics are doing something we think is wrong, ignorant, mistaken, moronic, silly, or just plain dumb, we should indeed refrain from criticizing or mocking them if we think they really "don't know any better." They've been brainwashed. They're too stupid. They're stuck at an immature stage of development. They're weak. They're needy. They're not part of our culture. They're from a different world. They're primitive or feeble-minded or hopelessly ignorant or somehow, in some critical, important way -- they're not like us.
They should be treated differently, because they're different. Lower expectations, be gentle, bring out the kid gloves and the hushed voices and the kind nods and the sorrowful smiles and the understanding and compassionate glances, because -- they can't handle the truth. The dear things. They're not ready, or they're not capable, or they're not willing to give up illusions. And we respect that fact.
People who believe in God are not like us. So we need to be tactful.
Is that really the respectful attitude we should adopt? Is that really "respect?"
I think that the concept of the "sacred" should be de-sacralized, because in placing something beyond question, we place ourselves beyond doubt. Humans need to doubt.
And I think that the Catholics can and should learn to take some abuse and mockery, because we none of us human beings are above needing that -- and if we refuse to do that out of "respect" for them as Catholics, we lose respect for them as fellow human beings.
It goes beyond just thinking transubtantiation is wrong, or God doesn't exist. If I respect your "belief," that means I'm no longer respecting you.
#243 "Fr. J"
Don't you get sick of yourself? How about you check this blogs archive before you go straight into whine mode with the most selfcentered argument you can think of?
Any suggestions for a short name referring to "you wouldn't say/do this if were muslims" whines?
Fr. J #243
Where is PZ disrupting a worship service ? Do you see PZ disrupting a worship service ? You have any evidence for that ?
He is merely expressing an opinion. It might be "disparaging" for you, it might be "for the purpose of exposing your religion to contempt and ridicule ", or might fail to "exhibit adequate sensitivity to your particular feelings", but it's still his right. Also, if he were to desecrate some Eucharists, it would also be his right, it would also be "closely akin to 'pure speech.'".
So, please read again those articles which I left in my post just before yours, there's nothing wrong with what PZ is doing. You might not like it very much, but that's another matter, there are also many things he and many of us here do not like very much from the religious side.
Now of course, if some of the religious folks would answer with violence, this would be a different matter all together, they would clearly be guilty of breaking the law. But PZ is not guilty of any violent behaviour, what violent behaviour ? Declaring that he would like to desecrate some Eucharists ? You gotta be joking of course !
"In fact, I can think of innumerable vile acts going on all around the world right now, and not all of them even involve Catholicism."
My thoughts immediately. I wonder if they would be upset if I took a wafer, then pulled out a bit of Cheeze Whiz and added it for flavor?
mmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Jes-whiz
Hey Fr. J
Before you pop off, get the facts straight.
I would venture to say that the boy-rapes-per-thousand is a bit higher amongst Catholic Priests than for college professors.
Nothing in that story suggests that he disrupted a service. It says he walked out with it
Yes, one hopes to get death threats from all sorts of kooky religious types.
Life in danger? Ha! At worst they get laughed at, as any dumb idea would at science symposia....except they don't often present their "work" at meetings...they have no "work" to present. Instead they try to convince 9th graders and legislatures with their intellectual welfare projects.
PZ's on the record that that doesn't happen.
Fr. J, we're pissed because the Catholic League wants to take action against this guy. They want to impact his education. People want him killed. This is a serious matter. It is your clenching to an absurd mythology that is jufenile. Grow up and join the 21st century. Mythical men do not crackerize!
Copernic
What about masticating it and then disolving it in acid, before mixing what's left of it with fecal matter and flushing it down the can? I mean, that's what everyone else does with them, isn't it?
Send an email to Katheryn Jean Lopez at The Corner for her snide comment at http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ODZlYmE3ZjcyMTY4OGMxOTg4ZDczMj…
Mine went a little something like this:
"I would love to see you try to do anything to PZ, but something tells me you're all talk. That little threat was just an attempt to get attention from your readers wasn't it? To show them how angry you are so that they'll give you their approval even though you'd do absolutely nothing even if PZ was standing right next to you? How weak. You've added nothing to the dialogue except to simply repost the story with your little tag line. I'm sure your readership is off the charts."
Quick recap for anyone coming to the party late:
Person takes cracker from religious cerimony instead of eating it.
Person gets death threats from religious zealots, is called hateful & intolerant for not eating cracker.
Blogger writes about absurdity of death threats for taking cracker instead of eating it. Blogger is called intolerant by religious zealots. Then blogger gets death threats on blog comments.
Troll shows up, throws around the word 'cunt', adds nothing of value. Concern trolls show up, saying we need to be respectful & tolerant of others' beliefs, or else those people will threaten to kill us. Many fun cracker-related activies are planned by gleeful, happy folks.
@334: I don't get the feeling that PZ is shocked by the CL's reaction, actually. Although maybe he was surprised by the volume of e-mailed death threats?
I have to agree, doing a transubstantiated-wafer desecration is rather juvenile. On the other hand, Bill Donohue of the Catholic League is such a prick, it's hard for me to tut tut anything that gets his dander up. And I like the idea that maybe getting Catholics to think long and hard about the cherished belief in transubstantiation might just get some of them to realize how silly and illogical it is. Maybe it will even lead them out of Catholicism and into atheism, as it did for me.
you know I'm starting to get a theory about where this body of christ crackers thing came from. Forget the last supper, see my theory!
Back in the days, the disciples had stolen DEAD JESUS! They had smuggled his body from the drunk roman guards, and the roman legion was tracking them down for it. They were desperate, they were hungry, they were thirsty. There was just no way they could hide the body properly without the kickass romans finding it.
So they ate him and drank his stinking blood. Now that there was no evidence left beyond some bones that could just be ANYBODY'S (and their mouths still covered in blood), the roman legion had to let them go.
And to remember this day they eat crackers cuz they wish they had crackers to go along with Jesus's caked blood.
I simply ask Prof. Myers to respect my beliefs and refrain from his proposed action.
I can't speak for Dr. Myers, but I can say that I respect your right to HAVE your beliefs, but I don't really respect your beliefs. Why should I have to? They're silly. A cracker isn't a divinity, and it never will be. As far as what PZ plans to do, it's a symbolic act. I applaud it, but I don't think he needs to go through with to prove his point. The hysterical (in both senses of the word) response of the Catholic League has already proven his point.
Having said that, I honestly believe that PZ is going to do it. Why? Because he's a man of his word. I kind of wish he wouldn't, because the craziness is might get worse, but I've never seen him back down ...
Man, chistianhood equal intolerance for definition,
since they are sure they hold the absolute truth
about their non-existant so called god... so everyone
else its going to hell and suffer excruciating pain
for all eternity.
PZ, we all support you, this its pure hate by the hand of those suposed to be merciful and forgiving christians...
Just tell us, there will be a army of atheists supporters there to help you out !!
One of the years I spent in Catholic grammar school I was lucky enough to have a lay teacher instead of a shit-for-brains nun. One day my teacher had to leave for an hour and a nun replaced her. The asshole nun spent the entire hour telling us we were going to hell, and she described hell in great detail. Even though I was only in 3rd grade, I knew this nun was full of shit, but most of the other students were terrified. What she did can only be called child abuse. I'm sure this child abuse continues today, every day, millions of times a day, throughout god-soaked America. It's impossible to ridicule religious assholes enough.
"Most anti-Catholic bigots use the abuse card to attempt to silence or attack the Church. Actually most children suffer abuse at the hands of parents and teachers, not priests. Aren't you a teacher? Hmmm..."
Um... You're saying that as if most of his students weren't big enough to kick his ass... Seriously, he's not a grade school teacher.
Now you've gone and really stirred up the hornets nest. Remember that "desecration" of the eucharist was commonly used by the loving Catholic church to justify pogroms against Jews in the good old days of the Middle Ages. That gave them the moral authority to torture, rape and pillage in the name of their loving god.
Nothing like a bunch of crazed godbots with torches and pitchforks out to right a wrong.
If you can keep eating little bits of jesus every Sunday and he never runs out. Does this mean that The Magic Pudding is really about jesus and not about a pie after all?
Fr. J @243,
Hooboy! You are one for the books!
"Actually most children suffer abuse at the hands of parents and teachers, not priests. Aren't you a teacher? Hmmm..."
And as a Catholic, I bet you're probably a parent! Hmmm... Please, your stupid burns.
"That aside I would remind you that disrupting a worship service of any religion is a violation of federal civil rights laws."
Please give the defining arguments that would be pertinent in this case. Define "disrupt" for example. Not letting a cracker melt in your mouth is disruptive? Again. Please, the stupid...
"It is interesting that you choose to pick on Catholicism. Not much risk and you get all the usual sycophants to pretend that you are "brave." I doubt you will go to a Mosque and desecrate a Quran."
Well, no, it's not interesting. If you actually came to this site once in a while, you'd know PZ and the rest of us are happy to point out the idiocy of Islam or any other religion equally. You just noticed it this time cause it's yours. Were you up in arms over the desecration of a Quran at Gitmo? Yep, thought not. Only your magic stuff matters...
"If you are really brave you might defend intelligent design at a biologists convention. Then you would find your life in danger from the allegedly open-minded."
How would defending something you know not to be true be brave? Using that thinking I could say that "I think if you were really brave you'd go to the your Bishop and tell him he's a complete fucknut because there is no god and he's a child molester". Then you'd find yourself in danger from people that claim to be full of the love of god. Oh, and as stated before, when was the last time you heard of a group of professors (if they aren't religious) threatening anyone in this way?
"Frankly I find it hard to believe that someone who is supposedly educated..."
Come now, everyone knows that PZ is indeed educated. Just because he doesn't believe what you do doesn't cast that into doubt. Care to have a "degree holding" pissing match with the people who post here? What ya got?
"It is simply juvenile. Obviously your parents neglected teaching you manners and respect. They are no doubt ashamed as you should be. Grow up."
Is it truly juvenile? Or does this not just shine light on how totally screwed up your priorities are? You show your lack of understanding of cause and effect also. Even if I agreed that PZ didn't have good manners, that doesn't mean he wasn't taught them. It's sad that you don't understand even one of the most basic tenants of rational thought.
"Grow up."
Who believes in a make-believe sky daddy with no evidence? Who's still clinging to fairy-tails? Who really is the little boy in this discussion?
You are a dumbshit. Sorry, but you proved it with that bullshit you just spewed, so I'm calling it like it is.
Not one of your sentences made any kind of sense. You have given yourself reason to be ashamed. But I'm sure you aren't. More the pity.
If it's the body of christ, the living christ and you eat it, what does that make you? I would think that cannabalism is a crime.
http://www.ranum.com/linkedimages/behead-insult-crackers.jpg
Correction to my post #339:
No President has ever publicly stated that members of were not, in his view, citizens of this country
should read:
No President has ever publicly stated that members of (insert Christian group here) were not, in his view, citizens of this country.
Sorry about the confusion.
Just don't bother burning any Buddhist relics. The early Zen masters already did lots of that to demonstrate the folly of worshiping idols. - Brownian
Well then, maybe PZ could be really disrespectful to the Buddhists by not doing anything sacreligious to a Buddhist relic!
This is crazy over long so I may have missed it, but where did PZ say anything about disrupting someone's religious service? Mocking their beliefs sure, but having someone say your beliefs are silly doesn't stop you from practicing them.
Catholics I know and have known are interesting, thoughtful people. I'm sure most catholics I am likely to meet are equally so. But this kind of magical thinking scares me.
NB: Mr. Donohue is neither interesting nor thoughtful. He's an angry, angry nutcase.
Donohue can't imagine anything worse than desecrating his christcrackers. So it would seem that he things like abortion, while bad, are not *quite* as bad as dropping a flaming turd on the body'o'christ.
So I have a great idea... and anyone with access to the consecrated christcracker(s) could do. Repeatedly. With startling regularity. Auction them off to the highest bidder (but minimum say... $1000). The proceeds of the auction go to Planned Parenthood. If the Satanists get it, PP gets a G. If the Catholic League gets it, PP gets a G and the Catholic's opposition to reproductive freedom, same-sex marriage, etc. takes a hit. Win-win all around.
Unless of course the Catholic League is too *cheap* to pay a mere $1000 to save their precious christcrackers.
Please, oh, please, somebody get PZ some crackers! I'm loving this!
Hey PZ, don't you know that the best way of dealing with a sociopathic bully like that douchenozzle Bill Donohue is to let him push you around? I am shocked and offended that you don't have a better sense of propriety, respect, and that you can't conduct yourself in an appropriate manner.
I can't believe that you don't have the common decency to act like a gigantic boob about this. No, you've just got to go out there and show them what their bullying will get them, don't you?
My mother went to a convent school. A few years after she had left and begun training to be a nurse, and got married she went back. The headmistress asked her if she was planning to start a family. My mother had to explain that she did, but not until she had finished her training. The headmistress asked if she was on the pill and when my mum said she was, told my mum she thought that was an excellent idea.
There is an ironic epilogue to this tale. Despite being on the pill, she became pregnent with me and had to give up her training anyway.
If it's just a cracker, why would you abuse it "gladly"? Would you get pleasure from abusing an oreo? By taking pleasure in its abuse, by asking for crackers that have been consecrated, by taking the trouble to post it on-line, you admit that you know that at least to some people, there's more to the cracker than just a cracker. And surely you know that desecrating it is an act of disrespect to those who regard it as sacred. Why else would it matter if your blog is linked to or hosted by your university?
A cloth is just a cloth, and no one minds if you burn it, but paint the stars and stripes on it, and try it in Washington Square, and it becomes an act of disrespect, and not just to the cloth.
It doesn't matter if it's not as bad as child abuse. It doesn't matter if there is hypocrisy in the catholic church. Desecrating a religious symbol for entertainment is an act of profound disrespect. And all it does is show that atheists can be as thick as religious people.
It's not surprising that you would have an occasional lapse of judgment, considering the volume you generate, but it is amazing how your flock supports you. People, there is no god; not even PZ. He's wrong on this. Call him on it.
Eric, this isn't about exacerbating the issue--it's about calling a cancerous organisation up on the table for its attempts to bully and intimidate. Sure, they just slapped around a kid, but even Jesus (supposedly) said, "Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."
They opened Pandora's box when they lost their nut over that fucking wafer.
#180: I rather wonder if a giant octopus could get Bill Donahue INTO a jar...?!
Koran envy?
I guess what I'm saying is, you're no Allan Bloom. - Aric
Flattery will get you nowhere around here Aric.
"I simply ask Prof. Myers to respect my beliefs and refrain from his proposed action."
I have to ask you to respect my beliefs and go stab yourself in the face.
Where do these people get the idea they can use their religion to tell others what to do? Is it that the older your silly beliefs are, the more arrogant you can go around demanding people do as you want them to do?
A cloth is just a cloth, and no one minds if you burn it, but paint the stars and stripes on it, and try it in Washington Square, and it becomes an act of disrespect, and not just to the cloth.
The Supreme Court has ruled that flag burning is constitutionally protected speech. You are aware of that, are you not?
It's not about the cracker, dumbass. It's about them losing their shit about a cracker and going out of their way to make someone's college time miserable because of a goddamned cracker.
I'd love to see a communion wafer with a blindfold and cigarette, a giant Jesus statue assembled from actual Jesus wafers a la Frankenstein's monster, or any other number of must-YouTube shenanigans. But I'm not sure this is the best way to go about it. And my position has nothing to do with respecting superstitious/insane beliefs. Rather, I think there are a large number of people out there who are looking for a reason to finally let go of their superstition and start thinking on their own. An extreme display of disdain could have a damaging effect on that front, as Atheism could be too closely associated with anarchy. And while we free thinkers can pish tosh this line of reasoning easily, it's not so easy when you're first starting to learn how to re-engage those brain cells that someone else has been driving for so long. It took me some years to move from Christian -> spiritual -> "agnostic" -> "holy shit this is all there is, and I kinda like it!"
What I'd rather see PZ do with his liberated wafer(s) is to set up a series of controlled experiments, with the goal of either proving or disproving that communion wafers either undergo or do not undergo a change when subjected to arcane chanting. The fundies would of course still go nuts, but might prove invaluable for those who just need one more reason to climb down off the cross.
No, he's not, Sam. They showed their thuggish behaviour when they first when after Webster.
Backing down and apologising to them for provoking their bullying is plain stupid.
Um, Matt?
Were you having a "senior moment" when you decided to relate this story? Did I miss something? Hmm, you need to use Non Sequitur as your name from now on...
I don't think Bill Donohue really believes that the crackers turn into Jesus, anyhow.
Here, let's test it.
Unless Donohue apologizes, I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to get a hundred crackers smuggled out of churches all ver the country and/or world every day. If he really believes that said crackers are Jesus, and he considers Jesus more important than his own right to jump up and down and scream and spew spittle, then he'll issue a public apology for this nonsense of trying to do damage to someone for nothing more than expressing an opinion. As far as anyone knows, PZ isn't the one who stole the stupid cracker to begin with.
Waddya say, Donohue, you multi-wattled, obese, shrieking would-be Crusader? Are the wafers so important that their well-being would trump your venom?
My bet is, no, they're not. Bill Donohue, like most holy frauds, finds quite a friend in Jesus. Without him, ol' Bellicose Bill would be reduced to getting a real job.
I guess what I'm saying is, you're no Allan Bloom.
And thank goodness for that! pz should be proud that he is not a pompous, no-nothing hack and a poseur pretending to be an 'intellectual' (who was, incidentally aghast at the social movements of the 60s that made the country more livable).
Koran envy sounds good. It represents the intention of those posts pretty good as well.
You should fill a box of Jeez-Its up with blood-pack squibs and shoot at it with blanks. The hyperventilating Catholics would probably pass out when you assassinated Jesus and splattered blood all over the wall.
@#69
PZ,
You're convieniently omitting the fact that while your blog may be on separate servers, both your blogs servers and the university's servers do reside in the same series of tubes. Busted! One for the Catholic League.
You do realize computers don't use "TUBES" for memory storage and I'm fairly sure "TUBES" stopped being used in electronics decades ago.
Careful there Dahan, if he really is a Catholic priest (since he signs himself "Fr.") then he is most definitely not married and not a parent. But given the despicable nature of his insuation, I doubt the veracity of his sig.
Guys! Please! It's against my religion to dunk Chocolate Chip cookies in milk!
Please refrain from drowning my Hot Savior's balls like that! (For the dough is his face and the chips his many testicles. Amen.)
Respect my beliefs!
Ya know, until I saw this, I really didn't care about it much. I thought it was wrong to have that student receive threats and all, but really didn't care past that. Now I'm actually interested in getting some of the body of Christ. Not sure where I can go locally to get some, but I'm sure that there is somewhere around here I could go. Being basically completely unknown around here among the religious groups has some advantages.
Come to think of it, I've received the priesthood from one church and could probably bless the crackers myself so long as part of the ritual doesn't require faith that it'll do something.
"you admit that you know that at least to some people, there's more to the cracker than just a cracker. And surely you know that desecrating it is an act of disrespect to those who regard it as sacred"
Sam, do we ban the eating of fermented dairy products because a gang of Moon-worshipers declare cheese to be the actual body of their god?
The only difference here is the prestige granted to the RC Church due to its age, wealth, and the fact that it has many more deluded followers that the hypothetical moon/cheese sect.
Eat that cracker with cheese PZ! Save me one if they send you a couple.
It must be another of those magic but unevidenced transubstantiation events then - making the "e" which those of us who are sane can clearly see in the word into some other letter as far as appropriately believing religionists are concerned. But do they all agree on precisely which other letter (or symbol or absence of anything) it is instead of an "e"? What are the E-mperor's new clothes?
As well as the issue of whether and how the Catholics can tell the difference between correctly consecrated magic crackers and unmagicked (or differently magicked) wafers, there's the issue of what they believe the magic effect to be. This goes beyond the known disagreements over when the magic takes effect and on to which part of the body each individual wafer/cracker has become (like the dark meat joke) and what the flavour, blood group, genetic profile etc of zombie Jesus might be.
Just out of curiosity, don't the things that PZ has been saying violate Seed's Terms of Service? I know most web sites prohibit slander or hate speech. It's a judgment call, but vowing to desecrate a religion's holy things could be considered hate speech.
ddr #285 well said.
ddr #293 Well worth repeating, too!
To #139 and the 'Father' who also posted;
I find it amusing that you both mention you Church's approach to priests who had abused and, in many cases, raped children. You fail to mention that those practices were essentially allowed for decades, with the previous Pope (and likely some of his predecessors) content to turn a blind eye to the problem, and the current Pope, in a previous job, devising ways to protect the priests and intimidate victims and families.
It is clear that the so-called 'crack down' came only when public outrage grew large enough to threaten the flow of money into the coffers of the Church. If that is not an outrage in the mind of either of you, I suggest that you are incapable of feeling anything resembling outrage.
Do not claim that the people responsible for these actions have been punished, when there are many still in their positions (or whisked away to Rome and given cushy jobs so that they can avoid prosecution here). Perhaps the idiocy of the people involved is best demonstrated by a quote from our bishop, one he gave after he "promised" that none of the priests in the diocese had been involved in the scandal, only to have it splashed all over the paper that one had raped two boys in upstate New York: the quote is "It wasn't rape. They were simply consensual relationships that were misunderstood by families."
Perhaps, if you, or Donahue, could convince anyone that you were truly upset at your leaders feeling they have a right to abuse the helpless, you might have a little leverage on the current issue. Clearly you aren't bothered by those acts - they seem to be of minor importance, from your words - and you do not, at least with me, have the moral standing to be upset about the issue that prompted Dr. Meyers' post.
Wonder how BD would enjoy this? This guy is literally issuing a challenge to desecrate en ... ah ... masse : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnBnIUTviOk
You should fill a box of Jeez-Its up with blood-pack squibs and shoot at it with blanks.
Ah, you can use wine to stand in for the blood.
What SFG seems to be missing here is that many Atheists DON'T believe that religion and all of it's dangerous trappings SHOULD be allowed to 'live and let live'.
It's this wishy washy stance on religious tolerance that has allowed the states to disintegrate into its current fundy-tastic state.
And... since it's vaguely apropos, here's another art project I did last year:
http://www.ranum.com/linkedimages/piss-christ-kit.jpg
My next project was going to be a blending of the koran, bible, book of mormon, dianetics, and playboy, bound in a single volume with the parts assembled so that they make as much sense as the originals (including the centerfold, of course!) with a cover made of bacon. I've gotten sidetracked on another project that's more fun so all the ingredients (except the bacon) are sitting in a box in my studio. :(
As a Catholic, I believe that the Eucharist is the body of Christ.
Then you have a stupid belief. There is no theological justification for the whole transubstantiation business. I can excuse someone for believing in a god or creator or whatever, but there is no excuse for promoting a belief that stealing a wafer is holding it hostage, or that someone who does it deserves death threats. The church could have let the whole incident go for the minor breach of etiquette that it was, but they didn't.
OMSFG!!! This at 186 had me crying!
"The IQ quotient here is below 0."
Ah yes, the Intelligence Quotient quotient...
Nice to see that PZ has hit the big time. When Bill O'Reilly sends a producer to your front door, remember to throw falafel balls at the camera while screaming "Mackris" at the top of your lungs.
"It's not about the cracker, ..."
That was my point. When PZ abuses crackers, it's not about the crackers; "others" *are* disrespected.
Wow,
I still can't believe people are defending the Catholics on this, much less sending you death threats, PZ.
If I was a Jesus-lover, I think I would quietly disassociate myself from these people, and maybe make a public statement about how they're not "True Christians", then lay low and hope not to get made fun of too much by rational human beings.
These people need their very own parade:
IDIOT PRIDE
The debates about magic and cannibalism took place in the first few centuries after Christianity was founded and Christians are bored by them because they don't hold musterthey went on until we managed to kill everyone who disrespected us.
The question has been asked: what is PZ trying to accomplish by desecrating religious symbols?
The answer is this: By publicly desecrating religious symbols PZ Myers will force the University of Minnesota, and, by extension, other universities, to come down firmly and clearly on the side of secularism and free speech, and against religious bigotry and the bullying of their students, faculty, and administrations, as has happened in the "Host-kidnapping" incident which precipitated this whole mess.
For Christ's sake (sardonicism intended), the student was threatened with *DEATH*, is now being investigated by his school, and, who knows, may be expelled or have to withdraw. All because of the superstitions of few persons whom he caused no harm. (Merely offending people doesn't count as harm.)
PZ Myers has a lot of guts and ought to be commended by all here, including the religious commenters, for by standing up for his right to disbelieve and disrespect your traditions, he is standing up for your right (you religios) to disbelieve and disrespect the traditions of others.
This is an important point; religious intimidation has no place in the university -- or anywhere, really.
Tardensity levels are increasing. I need some goddamn Saltines to provide the enery to keep up with the stupidity. MMMMMMMMMMM...tasty!
#139
Bullshit, there was an organizational coverup all the way up.
Bullshit again. They have reacted so irrationally to a young mans actions that they have embarrassed themselves beyondany rational measure. If the entiregroup of people believe something that silly why on Earthshould it be respected? Do you respect the belief Xenu inhabits your body?
Right so a bunch of goofs got together and decided a cracker becomes Jesus when another goof says some magic words. Please explain how this 'debate' was resolved outside of insanity. Also explain how eating another human even a Godly one is ritualistic cannabalism?
Seems the RCC can't handle the fact the truth hurts.
What has become clear to me is aside from some sects problems with evolution Protestantism is far superior in terms of rationality to the RCC.
I find it fascinating that people are upset at a typo of "PZ's" name, but see no problem with desecrating a sacred object. Demanding respect while giving none is also juvenile. I would remind people that the University system in Europe and much in the US was founded by religious bodies. The Catholic Church values education. 259 I am not a creationist btw. 260, who invented nuclear weapons? Scientists not priests. Science does not have an unblemished record. Those who live in glass houses...267 I was unaware that you cannot purchase condoms at any drug store. I didn't realize the Swiss Guards were at your door making you obey our moral teachings. I have suffered great disrespect from homosexuals and in Canada they use "human rights" to restrict the human rights of Christians, so I am unimpressed with your diatribe. We do try to treat people with respect. Btw, in seminary I worked at a hospice for AID's patients that was run by the Catholic Church. Pretty hateful eh? 287 has it right when he questions Mr. MYERS professionalism. 327 I believe that I was illustrating to PZ that his bigotry could be turned against him. Save your anger for his actual bigotry. Also he could indeed be prosecuted. I will grant it would be up to the DA, but if he made a big production of it he could find himself in court. The same laws used to protect abortion clinics apply to churches. 330, simply an amazing amount of information and bigotry in just one post, congrats. 348, in fact there is a higher rate of abuse among teachers, sorry. The issue here is that this alleged professor is acting in a very unprofessional and juvenile manner. He does not have the right to walk into a church and pull a stunt like this. Actions are actionable. He can believe and speak as he wishes. I stand by what I said, either he was never taught respect and manners or he has ignored the lessons his poor parents tried to impart. Thanks to all who responded to my comment. God bless.
Just out of curiosity, don't the things that PZ has been saying violate Seed's Terms of Service? I know most web sites prohibit slander or hate speech. It's a judgment call, but vowing to desecrate a religion's holy things could be considered hate speech.
I'm pretty sure it's not, but you're welcome to contact SEED management and pursue your complaint.
Because it is just a cracker, but others are insisting that he treat it as something sacred. Really. Read.
"Admit" nothing. He's flat out saying it. That's entirely the point.
The assertion is that because some hold it sacred they are entitled to insist that everyone should. They aren't. And that's the point.
Your point is what?
The hypocrisy is entirely the point. They want others to respect and follow their beliefs while not having to extend the same courtesy to others.
Desecrating a religious symbol to expose the bigotry and hypocrisy of those who hold it sacred is fighting back against those who think that they should be allowed to force their beliefs on others.
Oh, good. Another "shut the fuck up and be polite" atheist. You probably would have told Rosa Parks to sit in the back of the bus and not make a scene.
Some people deserve to be offended. Ridicule is not an inappropriate response to the ridiculous. The idea that others have the right to insist that everyone hold the same beliefs they do is ridiculous.
And every one of you people who refuse to see the purpose behind this and call it "just being a jackass" are not just dismissing the argument without understanding it, you're refusing to acknowledge there's even one being made. It's about their intolerance. Until you acknowledge that, you have no point to make.
Why don't you draw a Mohammad cartoon while you're at it?
Oh, right.
Oh no! We're disrespecting the people who called this a "hate crime", and "worse than a hate crime", and who wanted to have a student expelled over a cracker! What an awful lot of despicable and insensitive jerks are we!
I think I must have overblown this. If you'll excuse me, I'm going to go write a nice respectful and sensitive entry for the Catholic encyclopedia about the time they killed those Jews after accusing them of torturing the host.
Dickhead.
I think just leaving a few of them in a box somewhere (perhaps a safe deposit box) would produce the best effect: How long would outrage hold out? Would the Catholic Church sue for their return? How many people would try to steal it? What other ramifications would occur from this long term? If outrage went away, would it prevent anything like this from happening again?
That seems to be an admission that priests don't educate anyone in anything - at least not anything genuine and worthwhile. Priests apparently reserve the right to miseducate people (with misinformation and disinformation) though, since priests aren't being contrasted with miseducators (and hence they could be those).
Brownian writes:
Just don't bother burning any Buddhist relics. The early Zen masters already did lots of that to demonstrate the folly of worshiping idols.
Wouldn't be a good idea to have done that in Tibet, until fairly recently. It's a good thing the Chinese came along and kicked out its theocratic despot (AKA: "the dalai lama") because it used to be that the lamas kept their people in ignorance and servitude and held the power of life and death over the populace.
Buddhism, as it has come to the US, is very watered-down. "Real buddhism" brought you such things like the kamikaze and the slaughter of the Tibetan "blue hat" lamas by the "yellow hat" lamas.
The ch'an (Zen) buddhists are a very small minority of buddhists. Taking buddhism as peaceful because of that small cult is like assuming christians are kind and loving because you met a few nice quakers.
To all who want their beliefs respected, I say:
Get some respectable beliefs.
"The Supreme Court has ruled that flag burning is constitutionally protected speech. You are aware of that, are you not?"
Of course. It's still disrespectful. Not everything that is disrespectful and stupid is illegal.
I'd participate in that contest, but it calls for me going to the church to kidnap Jesus's little toe's pancaked in a cracker.
...I dunt wanna. Church sounds so boring. And it's on a sunday morning! I have things to do! Like sleep!
How sad that people can't have respect for others but I guess as long as your are a University teacher that make it fine. Okay every one grow up if you do not believe you have that right, don't go to the Catholic Church. You wnat respect please give it!
At Fr. j, #243:
Three things you're overlooking: First, all kids have parents, and all kids have teachers, but only Catholic kids have priests, so of course there are more kids suffering from parents and teachers than from priests. You'll have to look at the percentage of abusers in each group.
I don't know the numbers, so I'm willing to accept for the sake of the argument that the percentage of abusers is lower among priests than among parents and teachers. So if other groups have a higher ratio of abusers, how does that make the abuse within the Catholic church any better?
And third, you're overlooking another major point: unlike parents and teachers, priests claim that they can give divine guidance on moral issues.
Fr J,
Can you tell us the following:
Do you support the right of a woman to have an abortion ?
Do you support allowing gays the right to marry ?
Do you support the use of condoms to prevent the transmission of HIV ?
Unless you answer yes to all those questions I consider you to be a bigot who clearly has no respect for his fellow humans.
Unless you can answer yes to all of those then you deserve no respect. You complain about being abused by homosexuals in Canada ? Can I ask, have you ever called homosexuality a sin ? Have you ever stated you do not think gays should have the right to marry ? If so then you deserved that abuse. Rather than learn from it, and realise you are activly discriminating against them you decide they are to blame.
it is people like you who make a laughing stock of the Catholic church, and ensure that Catholic is seen as a synonym for mysogonistic, homophobic racist. If you object to that then stop being those things, and fight against what your church has to say on the matter.
False analogy.
Not getting a person's name right N times in a row indicates carelessness or indifference. The accusation of "desecrating a sacred object" not only presumes the conclusion — i.e., that there is anything sacred in or about a cracker — but also misses the point.
Sigh.
For fuck's sake! What is wrong with these people?
I saw behavior better than this when I bumped a table and broke one of the cups my five-year-old niece was using for her tea party.
She didn't scold me for wasting tea.
So, fuck you, Bill Donohue. Grow the fuck up you worthless, gibbering, half-witted, rapist-loving man-child.
And, if you can't grow up, Bill, do humanity a favor and put a gun in your mouth, pull the trigger and do what you can to make up for the abuse humanity's suffered at the hands of your ridiculous, delusional, malicious cult.
It's a FUCKING CRACKER!.
PZ you don't get it. It doesn't matter that its just a cracker. Your behavior is both disrespectful and adolesent and not becomming of someone with a person in your position. Frankly, I am suprised you haven't been fired already.
If you are going to go around calling people fuckwits you should expect some backlash. You're not being persecuted be cause you are an atheist, you're be persecuted because you've been acting like a jerk. Having a pack of ditto-heads to reinforce your stupid behavior isn't helping you any either.
Jesus Christ, this is fun.
I propose PZ, that you turn a Krispy Kreme donut into the body of George Bush by simply saying some mumbo-jumbo over it, and then dunking it into a cup of coffee before consuming it. Maybe the Republican Police will arrest you.
Alternatively, according to the Catholic Church, you are allowed to have communion twice a day (if you attend two masses). You could make yourself a nice sandwich of some sort...maybe a Catholic Club Sandwich (with bacon, just to piss off the Jews too).
As a Catholic, I believe that the Eucharist is the body of Christ.
Then you're an idiot.
Next?
Do you know who Deal Hudson is? This fellow traveler of the Catholic League is a great moral leader ... when he's not having sex with one of his 18-year-old students. At least she wasn't a minor! (Or an altar boy.) More here, if you scroll down to the second part of my post.
I look down and there's a hundred more posts.
Must. Read. Faster.
"Every time I think I'm out, they pull me back in."
Beowulff,
One could take Fr J's defence of Catholic priests as condoning child abuse. It is ok to abuse children as long as you do not belong to a group that are the worst offenders.
He also chose to ignore the fact that parents or teachers found to have been abusing children will go to prison, and in the case of teachers will never get to teach again. Maybe he thinks all groups go in for the cover up the Catholic church does. That he is still a priest after it has become known the Church covered up child abuse really tells us a lot about his value system. Anyone with integrity would have quit in disgust.
All of this 'respect our cracker beliefs' rhetoric strikes me as hilarious.
I don't have to respect your faith based beliefs that have no basis in reality - I have to TOLERATE them. And when you try to use said unsubstantiated beliefs to get a man fired - well then don't expect us to not examine your fallacious claims critically.
Funny how it's always misogyny that these boys resort too. Can't even pretend not to be derranged bigots for a few minutes.
it's a frigging cracker. Time to give up the imaginary friends; you're adults ffs.
Time to give up the misogyny too - it's old, moldy and stinks real bad.
@ #277
yob tvoyu mat,
Also, I banged your mom.
Ummm... isn't that a little redundant?
So what? Where did you ever get the idea that being disrespectful is Not To Be Done(TM) regardless of the reason?
Intolerance does not deserve respect.
THIS IS THE THREAD THAT WILL NOT END!!
I read the first 200 replies and refreshed the window to find there were now over three hundred! After reading the next hundred I found there were 425!
WE CAN'T ESCAPE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm surprised they didn't issue the "My taxes pay Myers' salary" canard which, as we all know, allows them 100% total approval on anything he says or does 24/7.
The most insidious aspect of all of this is the sheer hypocrisy of saying that we should all "live and let live", and "respect others beliefs", while at the same time asking people not to do as they wish (within the law, obviously).
Here's the thing: Freedom of expression, freedom of conscience, etc, means that we all have the right to do as we wish, as long as it's within the law. It's about time that people got their priorities in order. There is much horror in this world, and most of the reactions to what is going on elsewhere are pretty pathetic, if you ask me. That is what we should all be offended by, not some stupid religious ritual.
And I'm sorry, it doesn't matter how often you tell me that your particular ritual is important to you, it won't change my opinion that it is ridiculous. You have every right to believe as you wish, but I am under no obligation to respect it.
It's [flag burning] still disrespectful.
Disrespect can be earned. Flag burners are operating off a sincere belief in the immoral acts connected to the symbol they are burning. Eucharist heisters are doing the same. You may disagree with both of them, but you can't abridge their rights to do such acts.
sam green #370: "Desecrating a religious symbol for entertainment is an act of profound disrespect."
Yeah, so what? I'm in favor of desecrating all religious symbols. Anything that insults bible thumpers should and must be done. I'm quite sick of daily suicide bombings, the two religious wars I have to help pay for, brainwashing of gullible children, and never ending attacks on science education. All religions are a curse on the human race, and all religions must be eradicated. The only possible way to do this is ridicule. Nothing else works. To be religious should be as disgraceful as being a racist. All religious people, no matter how moderate they are, should be attacked relentlessly.
Randy Stimpson aka Intelligent Designer writes:
If you are going to go around calling people fuckwits you should expect some backlash.
I hope I'm the first:
You're a fuckwit.
I wrote a letter in support of PZ.
_______________________________
President Robert Bruininks,
I urge you not to give into the Bill Donohue and the Catholic League's pressure, if they offer any at all.
I fully stand behind PZ and his comments regarding this non-issue of a communion wafer.
It's fortunate that we live in a country that does not have blaspheme laws.
PZ is a wonderful educator and I learn more from his blog than any one else.
Thank you for time.
Best regards,
Matthew C Pickard
Hartland, Wisconsin
_______________________________
Next, Donohoue will receive a respectful piece of my mind.
//m
Let the battle of the cracker begin!
Just out of curiosity, don't the things that PZ has been saying violate Seed's Terms of Service?
--Actually, it doesn't.
http://scienceblogs.com/channel/about.php
We believe in providing our bloggers with the freedom to exercise their own editorial and creative instincts. We do not edit their work and we do not tell them what to write about.
We have selected our 60+ bloggers based on their originality, insight, talent, and dedication and how we think they would contribute to the discussion at ScienceBlogs. Our role, as we see it, is to create and continue to improve this forum for discussion, and to ensure that the rich dialogue that takes place at ScienceBlogs resonates outside the blogosphere
BobC #312
"I believe in the Resurrection of the Body," as the Nicene Creed puts it. Briefly, while I find the Gospel accounts to be convincing, they deserve serious consideration. Alternatively, one must concoct a strictly naturalist explantion for the continued existence, through two thousand years, of the Catholic Church.
Next to the Resurrection, transubstantiating Oneself into a "cracker" is a simple matter for God.
Of course PZ is being disrepectful. I am as well. A good number of the other posters here are being disrepectful also. There is a reason for this.
Belief that a bit of wafer can become the body of Christ is not deserving of respect. It is such a foolish belief, based on no evidence at all, it is surprising that there a people willing to admit to holding that belief.
And what about respect for science and reason ? I hold those things to be important, as does PZ. Believing that a wafer turns into the body of Christs is not exactly respecting the belief that reason and science are important is it ? Why the disrespect shown by PZ, myself et al wrong, and yet the disprect shown by Catholics OK ?
He can't quit, he's religious and it goes with the territory (unless he joins the ranks of recovering former delusion-addicts and ceases being religious). If he has the requisite magic powers though, he might do you a side order of transubstantiated accusations ...
Flag burners are operating off a sincere belief in the immoral acts connected to the symbol they are burning. Eucharist heisters are doing the same.
Revising my remarks ...
The host heisters might just be making fun of the supposed divinity of the cracker instead of protesting any kind of immorality.
We certainly do. And you're not in a stone-age tribe living in the jungle without access to libraries or the internet. You have no excuse for believing something so stupid as that a wafer is Jesus Christ after it becomes consecrated.
Just want to correct something I've read at least twice above. Condoms do not prevent the spread of the HIV virus... we were taught that back in high school. Surely that's common knowledge? Please tell me that's common knowledge...?
Freedom of expression, freedom of conscience, freedom to act like a rebellious, adolescent twit.
If they are going to insist that everyone treat their religious symbols with the same respect they do, they should expect to be called fuckwits. PZ is acting in response to their intolerance. Ignoring that doesn't make it go away.
He's being persecuted for not believing a cracker is the body of Christ. Ignoring that doesn't make it go away.
Having a pack of ditto-heads to reinforce your stupid behavior isn't helping you any either.
Um, does that make it something besides a cracker?
As for Donahue, why do these people always try to get people fired? It's not like they themselves hold down a regular job, they are just being offended loud mouths for fun and profit. Another grating whore babbling on...
More koran envy detected @ #409. Thanks for playing Staash, now go into the archive and realize what an idiot you are.
"The Supreme Court has ruled that flag burning is constitutionally protected speech. You are aware of that, are you not?"
Of course. It's still disrespectful.
That's the point. If I don't respect you, I should be allowed to express that disrespect. There is a difference between respecting your right to believe something stupid, and respecting that belief itself. The whole point of flag burning is to express one's disrepect for the actions of that flag's government, just a s desecrating a eucharist is to express disrepect for the actions of those who sanctify it.
Re ThePetey@385
<1>You do realize computers don't use "TUBES" for memory storage and I'm fairly sure "TUBES" stopped being used in electronics decades ago.<1/>
Obviously, you are not aware of all internet traditions. Perhaps this will be informative:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtOoQFa5ug8
Shorter Stephens: I'm in ur internet fillin ur t00bz.
Stop altogether? No. But they're highly effective at preventing transmission; if you were taught otherwise in high school, you were lied to.
Robin writes:
You wnat respect please give it!
I don't want respect that comes so cheaply that it's given in return for mere lip-service. I want hard-won respect. The kind that's worth having. The kind that's earned - not simply because of the fact that I have opinions, or a metabolism.
How do you earn respect? There are lots of ways. First off, you could be big enough and tough enough to stomp a hole through me. Or you might be smarter than me. Or, simply, you might be right about something, and be able to convince me of it with evidence, argument, wit, humor, or reason. You might be more creative than me, or your actions might strike awe in my heart.
But respect is not something I trade one-for-one. I don't want that kind of cheap shit respect; the kind you're trading.
And you haven't earned mine.
Wait ... I think I can see it now ...
"A college professor is castigated by a shadow conspiracy for bucking the establishment with his "anti-cracker" theories. All he wants to do is open a discussion on other possible interpretation of the cracker, but he is met only with rejection and ridicule."
... it's Ben Stein's NEXT movie!!! (Working title: BAKED!)
This whole 'respect my beliefs'... or else suffer legal consequences thing... it creates some real practical difficulties, I find.
I mean, let's say (and this is entirely hypothetical, honest) I were to read the pompous pontification of a putative priest in a certain blog's comment section, and physically just couldn't quite stifle the laughter. In that case, would I still be subject to legal action if someone saw me? I mean, let's say the coppers were to catch me red-faced, the knuckle of my own thumb in my mouth, biting down hard enough to cause pain, and still, snickers were escaping around it. I'm trying not to laugh, really (sure, only out of fear of criminal prosecution, but I'm trying). So am I still liable?
And if I do face trial, can I at least make a case that at a certain level of absurdity, the behaviour of the aggrieved mockee clearly qualifies as entrapment? Is there an out for that? Can my lawyer simply intone: 'Your honour, I'm just a simple hyperchicken from a backwoods asteroid, but dammit, you'd have laughed, too...'?
*facepalm* Was your high school of the Catholic variety, by any chance?
"Just want to correct something I've read at least twice above. Condoms do not prevent the spread of the HIV virus... we were taught that back in high school. Surely that's common knowledge? Please tell me that's common knowledge...?"
Sad to say it is true. Condom use (unless you stick it over your head) does reduce the HIV infection rate. Unless you are a Catholic priest that is, in which case you have the right to tell your flock they in fact help the spread. You can just see all that Christian love at work there. It must take a lot effort to think encouraging behaviour that increases people's chances of getting HIV and dying of AIDS is doing god's work. All I can say if that really is their god, then fuck him.
Neural T. #391
You might want to take a look at the terms;
http://scienceblogs.com/main/terms/
So I think that's clear, the notion of hatespeech you are refering to might exist and might be unlawful in some countries, but not in the USA.
Again, I'll refer you to my post #242 for a closer examination of the legal precedents of such an issue in the USA.
Even if PZ did desecrate some Eucharists, this would still be considered as "closely akin to 'pure speech.'" and perfectly lawful. As far as expressing his opinion on this blog, he is well within his rights even within religious harrassment laws, whether or not they are "disparaging ", are made "for the purpose of exposing [an other religion] to contempt and ridicule ", or fail to "exhibit adequate sensitivity to [another's] feelings."
So, your concerned curiosity is noted, but not required.
Gasp! The University must set up a firewall and block student access to all sites Bill Donohue finds objectionable; it's the only decent thing to do. Won't someone think of the children?
Randy Stimpson aka Intelligent Designer:
pfffft. Why would anyone respect your opinion? You have an extremely high opinion of yourself, yet I can't figure out for the life of me why. I'll give you props for designing software, but really, you are clearly not an intellectual (although you pretend to be one), you're ugly ( your wife's no great painting either) and you offer no new thoughts or ideas.
Sorry, the wife thing was uncalled for, but everything else is true.
Ah, well that's good to hear. I remember them telling us that you can still transmit it even with condoms, but hey, if it's reducing the spread, good! It just seemed like the comments above were implying it totally prevented the spread...
"I do, however, expect you to give me the respect to eat what I believe to be the Body of Christ in peace.
When you fail to show basic respect, and, worse, when you applaud those who so fail, you come across as inconsiderate jerks."
Let me break it down for you: nobody is OWED respect. Ideas EARN respect based on merit. If you go around saying the sky is green and REALLY, REALLY believe it and would cry if i make fun your your irrational belief, am I OBLIGED to humbly bow my head and not contradict you?
The idea of transubstantiation is ludicrious on the face of it and does not deserve any kind of respect. Truth cannot be subordinated to peoples feelings. Reality doesn't work that way.
Silly, pointless (maybe even dangerous) ideas deserve mockery. It does serve a purpose. Mockery is a rhetorical tool that highlights the absurdities of bad ideas. Just ask Johnathan Swift. Maybe somebody will wake up and smell the coffee because of it.
One thing I know for certain, the magic wafer is not Jesus foreskin. Hey, which brings to mind...what part of Jesus are you eating anyway?
I find it humorous that a college professor employed by a respected state institution would publicly use such insulting and juvenile language towards Catholics. While the Catholic League, as angry as it may be, shows restrain in its speech, the intelligent, educated atheist PZ Myers responds with name-calling: "extortionists", "witch hunters", "purblind ideological bigot". Surely, this is a technique
To desecrate the Eucharist is to desecrate the body of Christ. This is what I believe as a Catholic. You may not believe as I do - which I understand. However, to take something we see as so holy and wantonly desecrate it, with the sole end of insulting us, is nothing short of bigotry. And to call Donahue a "bigot", as Myers does, because of Donahue's opposition to his own anti-Catholic bigotry, is the height of hypocrisy - something Catholicism has been accused on numerous times in the comments on this blog entry. The anti-Catholics posting here should examine their own hearts rather than accusing the church of traits they themselves possess in abundance.
From 455:
" it's Ben Stein's NEXT movie!!! (Working title: BAKED!)"
Perhaps a better title would be "Half Baked"?
SteveM @ 386,
Thanks, I see your point. I should have probably just mentioned his father as being a parent and left it at that. Assuming it wasn't ANOTHER virgin birth.
Damn, this whole cracker story is just gut-busting funny! "A student walked out of Mass with the Host, holding it hostage for several days." Even more funny that they are actually so afraid of what you will do with the cracker should you get one. How the hell have the Catholics been hiding this one from the public for so long? It puts the Scientologists and Mormon fundamentalists to shame. Now these self-purported cannibals want to resort to Inquisition-like tactics, a witch hunt is what it is, to coddle their credulous minds? Someone needs to start consecrating wafers of Xanax for these monsters, up the doses of jeebuzz blood during their holy communion, or trade out their incense for hashish to calm them the F down.
"That's the point. If I don't respect you, I should be allowed to express that disrespect. There is a difference between respecting your right to believe something stupid, and respecting that belief itself. The whole point of flag burning is to express one's disrepect for the actions of that flag's government, just a s desecrating a eucharist is to express disrepect for the actions of those who sanctify it."
I know, I know. There is no law against disrespect, and there is certainly a place for it in legal protest.
My whole point was about PZ's university's requirement that he treat others with respect, and his denial that he was being disrespectful of others. Most of the people disagreeing with me have nevertheless agreed that PZ's proposed cracker abuse would be disrespectful of "others", contrary to his own denial.
Prediction: PZ will not go through with the threat. Someone will talk some sense into him.
Just a wild guess: that wouldn't happen to have been a Catholic high school you attended, would it, Snitzels?
Condoms are indisputably the best protection against contracting HIV through sexual transmission. Asked and answered.
At Matt Penfold, #427:
Yeah, that was what I was trying to say in my second point. I also considered adding the difference in cover-up strategies, but didn't feel like I could find a good way of saying it, so thanks for adding that. Note that schools have also been caught at trying to cover up abuse scandals, but that generally has lead to the replacement of the school boards responsible. I've yet to hear of a bishop or cardinal getting in trouble over trying to cover up an abuse scandal.
"All I can say if that really is their god, then fuck him."
Atta boy, Matt! Glad to have you back.
(Really - what was that anecdote up the thread about?)
mox #378 wrote:
I like this. I think that if PZ does go through with a Public Desecration, it should be something clever and thought-provoking.
As I mentioned on the other thread, I'm not all that keen on PZ Myer disemboweling a holy cracker or whatever in the first place, mostly because I think it's a waste of PZ. It's Angy Teenage AthIEst stuff, and too easy for people to miss the more subtle, thoughtful, intelligent arguments which lie behind the act.
Hehehe. Yeah, but they're there. PZ can write. He's clever. Shrewd. Insightful.
So now he's going to have to figure out how to do this thing he's going to do, and make it clever, shrewd, insightful, and funny, and not juvenile or trashy or trite. He's going to have to make it somehow clear that the real issue isn't just transubstatiation being silly (though it is) -- it's the over-reaction to a rather dull act of "sacrilege." There are a lot of points to get in, and if he pisses on Jesus they're going to get lost in the whole "look, he pissed on Jesus" thing. His incisive prose, philosophical perception, and solid scientific approach to religion will get lost behind an image of something any schoolkid could do, while snickering.
I'm not being a concern troll here telling him not to do it (ok suggesting it a bit, maybe, but certainly not telling.) But I am getting a bit excited now wondering how the heck he's going to pull it all off.
If you have to commit sacrilege, why the cracker and not the wine?
"Ah, well that's good to hear. I remember them telling us that you can still transmit it even with condoms, but hey, if it's reducing the spread, good! It just seemed like the comments above were implying it totally prevented the spread..."
No, not totally but the reduction is substantial. In my opinion active opposition to their use for transmission prevention is a crime against humanity. At the very least anyone taking such a position has lost any respect for any views or opinions they may have.
j,
It's true. tea bagging the wine is a definite possibility.
Bill:
Send me $1 million in unmarked bills if you ever want to see your cracker again.
If I haven't received the money within 24 hours I'll start sending your cracker back to you piece by piece, crumb by crumb.
@470 no, not catholic HS, but perhaps the health teacher was trying to scare us...
403, actually what he would accomplish is enshrining the right to disrupt worship services and persecute Christians. He is throwing a temper tantrum. Persecution is traditionally what atheists have done. 100 million dead in the last century due to atheism. You have nothing to be proud of. The inquisition was enlightened comparatively. Having reviewed many of the posts here I invite you to re-read them. The hatred and bigotry expressed by PZ and his friends is simply astonishing.
Here is from the California penal code and I am sure Minnesota has something similar:
California Penal Code § 302 (2007)
(a) Every person who intentionally disturbs or disquiets any assemblage of people met for religious worship at a tax-exempt place of worship, by profane discourse, rude or indecent behavior, or by any unnecessary noise, either within the place where the meeting is held, or so near it as to disturb the order and solemnity of the meeting, is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by a fine not exceeding one thousand dollars ($ 1,000), or by imprisonment in a county jail for a period not exceeding one year, or by both that fine and imprisonment.
The US Code says:
§ 247. Damage to religious property; obstruction of persons in the free exercise of religious beliefs
(a) Whoever, in any of the circumstances referred to in subsection (b) of this section--
(1) intentionally defaces, damages, or destroys any religious real property, because of the religious character of that property, or attempts to do so; or
(2) intentionally obstructs, by force or threat of force, any person in the enjoyment of that person's free exercise of religious beliefs, or attempts to do so;
shall be punished as provided in subsection (d).
(b) The circumstances referred to in subsection (a) are that the offense is in or affects interstate or foreign commerce.
(c) Whoever intentionally defaces, damages, or destroys any religious real property because of the race, color, or ethnic characteristics of any individual associated with that religious property, or attempts to do so, shall be punished as provided in subsection (d).
(f) As used in this section, the term "religious real property" means any church, synagogue, mosque, religious cemetery, or other religious real property, including fixtures or religious objects contained within a place of religious worship.
Any good lawyer could make a case given these laws. The Eucharist is a "religious object." Other people have been arrested for such behavior in churches. The courts have ruled that the right of people to worship in their church is greater then the free speech rights of those who would disrupt such worship (Church of Christ in Hollywood v. Lady Cage-Barile.) I am a canon lawyer btw. If he actually does this I would hope they would prosecute him and protect our right to religious liberty.
B.'s last word before signing off was that the law would allow the Catholic Church to exclude people from its property or sacraments, but that the Church doesn't. That's not right. The Church does exclude people from its sacraments. It might have extremely weak, even ludicrous, means of enforcing that limitation, but the limitation exists. Not sure exactly what flows from that distinction, but I thought it was worth making.
@Adam Janke
You are making it to easy, there's plenty in the archive that muslims wouldn't apreciate and you are number three at least who goes for the selfcentered argument that we wouldn't say something bad about muslims, the only reason you and your sectarian friends make that stupid argument is because you would never bother to look here if it wasn't your own silly magic being offended. What a childish thing to say anyway.
Catholics are leading in the contest among christian sects for the most comments with koran envy. I'm hoping we can piss off other sects soon, otherwise you'll be on top for a while.
I fully agree. I never understood the religious position of preventing protection...
Oh great, now Jesus is a Scientologist! Wasn't the plot complicated enough for ya, Dustin?
Now who's gonna play Him in the movies? John Travolta's already the Archangel Michael and Tom Cruise is already a Nazi (surprise twist - he becomes Pope!), so it'll have to be Wil Smith. Kirstie Allie can play love interest Mary Magdalene - we'll let her eat him and afterwards she can hawk a cracker-only diet plan.
Tentacular horrors, gotta work tentacular horrors into it somehow. And volcanoes, everybody loves exploding volcanoes... Can we throw Katie Holmes in it? Better check with Legal, once they're done with the cracker kidnap case.
I would think that a professor would show tolerance and respect for other people's views. Why is it so necessary to show such vileness towards the Catholic religion? Are you afraid they may be right? Does all your science answer all your questions? I pity those who have no faith beyond their own intellect.
This seems to have some of the elements of the Andres Serrano controversy of the 80s. The big difference being, of course, that the blog is something that PZ does on his own time, and Serranos' work was partially paid for by an NEA grant. And 'Piss Christ' was actually a work of religious devotion.
OK, the cases are not alike at all. Ha ha.
Late to the party here, but Donohue's use of "Paul Zachary Myers" just reminded me of A. A. Milne, and James James Morrison Morrison...
Paul Paul
Zachary Zachary
Myers ("PZ" for short)
Blogs his opinions freely;
Never asks what god hath wrought.
Paul Paul said to the godbot
"Godbot," said Paul, said PZ:
"You must never adore
Just a cracker (no more!)
While your god's an illusion, you see!"
Here we go....
#465
"The anti-Catholics posting here should examine their own hearts rather than accusing the church of traits they themselves possess in abundance."
My heart is made of cardiac muscle and several valves. What's that got to do with child-molesting priests and death threats to cracker-stealers?
I hate you for that. I wish you could un-think something.
You guys know you can buy communion wafers on eBay, right?
http://cgi.ebay.com/Unleaven-Communion-Wafer-100-Cups-Church-Jesus-God_…
AWMTI #441: ""I believe in the Resurrection of the Body," as the Nicene Creed puts it. Briefly, while I find the Gospel accounts to be convincing, they deserve serious consideration. Alternatively, one must concoct a strictly naturalist explantion for the continued existence, through two thousand years, of the Catholic Church. Next to the Resurrection, transubstantiating Oneself into a "cracker" is a simple matter for God."
The continued existence of the Catholic Church and all other religions can be easily explained. These idiotic medieval beliefs survive today thanks to the abusive brainwashing of young children.
Anything is simple matter for your Magic Man. Your sky fairy can do anything. That's why only the most insane gullible people believe in it. When people are brainwashed to believe in the invisible man, all reality becomes meaningless. They live in a fantasy world where miracles occur every day. These retards would not be a problem if they kept their disease to themselves, but instead they pass on their disease to their children, and they try to infect other people's children. They deserve nothing but ridicule and contempt.
One thing I've noticed in this thread are the many (well, several at least) people castigating PZ Myers for his threats of committing blasphemy yet ignoring the fact that his blogs have been a reaction of Webster Cook being harassed and even getting death threats. Death threats! I mean, you could at least start your posts with, "I don't approve of the zealots over-reaction against Webster Cook, but...."
You really don't see why some "militant atheists" find you fascist apologists as a thread to civilized society?
Fr. J @406,
"who invented nuclear weapons? Scientists not priests."
What a stupid argument.
Which has killed more people? Which has caused more human misery? Religion or nuclear weapons? We all know the answer to that.
Personally, I wish neither existed. You, however are just fine with one of them. The one that has and continues to deal the most death and pain.
"Really - what was that anecdote up the thread about?"
The one about my mum ?
I just find it rather amusing. And it does show that not all Catholics are horrible bigots. It is just a pity that such people still feel the need to label themselves as Catholics. If the liberal Catholics spoke out, and told the Pope to shape up or piss off the world might be a better place.
My maternal grandfather was Catholic, although not a very devout one I think. He got threatened with excommunication twice. Once for telling a Catholic friend to stop being an idiot and to go to his son's wedding even if it was taking place in an Anglican church. The second for saying that if you really wanted to talk to god you could do so anywhere, and there was nothing special about being a Church to do so.
I have an odd, and totally unearned, sense of pride that my grandfather nearly got excommunicated. Twice.
They're praparing a stake for you?
Hey, PZ got invited to a Catholic League BBQ!
"Father" J quoted the California penal code thusly:
Aha, notice the stipulation about the religious object *being* in the place of religious worship. If we PZ fans send PZ the consecrated host wafers we've spirited away from Masses in our own various parts of the country, then they are effectively removed from "places of religious worship". He can desecrate away. Problem solved!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. It was only a matter of time.
Catholics get their rocks off on desecrating their divine boy wonder every time they venerate crucifixes. Jebus' desecration is why they are so happy, it saved them!
Some catholic apologist earlier in the thread bleated about the need to respect the beliefs of the billion Catholics in the world (I suppose because it a billion, that is, a lot, if there was just one Catholic, then respect is not required).
There are many more racists and sexists in the world, and I don't respect their beliefs either. These pathetic, brain-dead, addicted-to-myth religious aholes propose an exchange of respect? I got news for you, I don't want or need your respect, and you certainly don't have my respect for your useless and dangerous beliefs.
The religites just don't get it, do they? No more tacit respect for your deranged beliefs. None. Not a bit. Or an iota. What frickin' part of this do they not understand?
The monk and the priest that posted earlier? What creepy creeps, peddling their crapola as if it is not the shit that it is.
Fr. J. "100 million dead in the last century due to atheism. "
Ok, we can stop listening to you now. You clearly have to get dressed for your IDIOT PRIDE parade.
It's one thing to foist old lies on the credulous. It's an entirely different thing to try to foist the same long-dismissed lies on people who know better.
Why don't you just tell us Hitler was an Atheist to the sound of the last scrap of your credibility being flushed down the toilet?
Jacob:
To desecrate the Eucharist is to desecrate the body of Christ. This is what I believe as a Catholic.
And nobody here is saying you don't have a right to believe that. Just as we have the right to call you an absolute, unmitigated wackadoodle moron for it.
You may not believe as I do - which I understand.
How gracious of you.
However, to take something we see as so holy and wantonly desecrate it, with the sole end of insulting us, is nothing short of bigotry.
Look the word up, idiot. Ridicule is not intolerance.
And to call Donahue a "bigot", as Myers does, because of Donahue's opposition to his own anti-Catholic bigotry,
Donahue expressed intolerance. Which makes him a bigot.
Please remember who is telling who what to do here. You can have your magic cookie and eat it, too.