Religion can be a force for peace, love, and understanding — at least when it provides an opportunity to beat up on those evil secularists. Turkey is an excellent example of where the creationists want to take us: it's the one country in the world that beats the US in its level of ignorance about biology, and the Christians and Muslims are happily collaborating to promote theocracy there.
Read the account — that's our future if the Discovery Institute has its way.
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Orli is unimpressed with the recent glut of atheist books. She begins by reproducing a segment from a previous post:
Dawkins and Dennett simply cannot understand the impulse to cling to an…
"Historians 500 years from now will talk about the religious revival of the late 20th century and early 21st century."
Yes. And they'll point and laugh.
Turkey is not the one country in the world that beats the US at ignorance. There are many others. However, since Turkey wishes to join the EU, and become part of the civilized world, the fact that they are the most ignorant country in Europe is being, and will be, highlighted.
"the one country in the world that beats the US in its level of ignorance about biology" Man, don't exaggerate. I'm sure the US ranks below many other first-world industrialized nations, but we're probably still well above most third-world nations.
Plus, of course, we scientists on the high end of the curve in the US are the finest and most productive in the world. :D
Anyway, here's the part of the article that got me:
That quote is from one of the Harun Yo-yos, not the scientists. Of course, I don't believe for a second that this is what they actually want, given that the HY literature is full of foul accusations of the 'evil' of 'Darwinists', and that they stir up violence against biology teachers.
We've seen a hint of this same tactic in the form of the "Teach the Controversy!" tactic in the West, but I wonder whether we'll try to see them really hard-sell the "peace and tolerance" angle, to co-opt the language of the left and to try to appeal to an audience that is traditionally more skeptical of fundies.
Of course, they'll have to find creationists who aren't loony far-righties first.
My thoughts exactly, Matt. Turkey is fond of repeating that it's a secular nation that will fit in just fine, and never mind the human rights violations. Looks like the opponents of their admission in to the EU can add "never mind those wacky anti-science ideas" to that. This will not exactly help their cause.
I was a bit surprised by this, given that Turkey is, at least in the governmental sense, secular, and working very hard to get into the EU.
That said, there's another secular country... it has a really hard time with biology... they've got these crazy Christian protesters who bomb abortion clinics and beat their wives... oh well, maybe I'll remember the name later.
The best part I thought was the following:
"There are outstanding figures within Islamic theology who have participated in this discussion [of creationism]. There is no reason to be surprised, there is a very rich tradition," David Berlinski, keynote speaker for the meeting and an analyst for the US-based Discovery Institute, a Christian creationist organization, told ISN Security Watch.
"This is a hot issue. We are in the midst of a worldwide religious revival. Historians 500 years from now will talk about the religious revival of the late 20th century and early 21st century."
"The reason why evolution is still espoused in the face of this scientific defeat is ideological. What science reveals is that the universe and life are the work of Allah."
- Adnan Oktan
What I find interesting is that they think scientists are as deluded as they are. Seems like they are ascribing their own motivations onto others and blaming them for doing what they are in actuality doing.
I couldnt stomach reading the whole article. It just makes me....sad, on top of pissed off.
""This is a hot issue. We are in the midst of a worldwide religious revival. Historians 500 years from now will talk about the religious revival of the late 20th century and early 21st century.""
Who made this statement? None other then world class schmuck and self-styled unbeliever Dr. David Berlinski. The same Dr. David Berlinski who once fraudulently claimed a PhD in mathematics until he was called on it and now admits that his PhD is in philosophy.
Wow. This is going to be like a "professional wrestling" tag team match. Of course, in the end, one member of the tag team will inevitably end up stabbing the other in the back.
My money's on the Christians. They fight really dirty.
""This is a hot issue. We are in the midst of a worldwide religious revival. Historians 500 years from now will talk about the religious revival of the late 20th century and early 21st century.""{
Who made this statement as a part of his keynote speech? None other then world class pompous jackass Dr. David Berlinski. The same Dr. David Berlinski who once fraudulently claimed a PhD degree in mathematics until called on it and forced to admit that his degree was in philosophy.
Darwin's Theory of Evolution, in layman's terms, proposes that life descended from organisms through "survival of the fittest."
That's the worst summation of Darwin's theory I've ever read.
Yea that article was pretty tough to stomache. It really will be interesting to see where the next 500 years takes us.
"Historians 500 years from now will talk about the religious revival of the late 20th century and early 21st century."
Yes. And they'll point and laugh.
Posted by: Archaeopteryx | March 13, 2008 9:49 AM
Or they'll point and cry, while hiding in basements from the religious police.
I think this video will clear things up: "Science Is Wrong ... Only God Knows The Truth" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjJa57htqcI
I liked:
And:
Well, at least someone can get their journalism right when it comes to the Disco Institute and Intelligent Design. Any chance of helping along this particular journalistic meme?
Somewhat OT, but it looks like cooler heads prevailed at FL's showing of Expelled. Best of all, it appears that most legislators ignored their tripe:
Gelber seems to understand the situation quite well, and should be able to talk down nearly all on his side, and probably some republicans as well.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
The writer of the article is indeed guilty of contributing to the creationist cause in his lousy reporting.
There's the pathetic summation of evolution mentioned above, as well as the constant use of the misnomer "Darwinism" to refer to the theory of evolution. "Darwinism" is a term creationists use as a straw man to try to put a scientific theory on par with religion, thus making it easier to tear down. After all, they say, if we can attack "Darwinism"'s charismatic leader, say he was a racist, etc., then that blows the whole theory of evolution.
From now on, I'm going to call cellular theory "Hookism," gravity "Newtonianity," and relativity "Einsteinium."
A supposedly neutral journalist should know his terms better.
I wonder if Homeland [in]Security is still detaining people that go overseas and meet with muslims?
I laughed at this, since the whole Darwinism thing pisses me off too. But isn't Einsteinium already an element? Might just get a bit confusing.
"This is a hot issue. We are in the midst of a worldwide religious revival. Historians 500 years from now will talk about the religious revival of the late 20th century and early 21st century."
So Jesus isn't coming back for at least another 500 years? Fucking A let's party!
"Historians 500 years from now..."
... will do nothing, because humanity will have died out if those ID-iots have their way.
BTW, Turkey DOESN'T fit in. Not only is just about 3% of Turkey (9,174 sq mi) part of Europe, their whole culture is different, and who ever said Turkey is (still) a secular state (without wiping tears of laughter)? It may have been, some 80 years ago, when Ataturk founded the state. But the current ruling party (AKP) is as right-winged conservative as it can get.
Add this to the other examples of bad writing in the article:
So the links have already been forged, and now they're zinc-plating them? That's a compelling metaphor.
What a farce. Turkey is playing at being Westernized, yet
is still being strangled by that cesspool religion. I hope
the European Union denies them membership and impresses
upon them that those rational European countries have no
need of their religious insanity and barbarism. Is there any country in Europe untrammeled by imported religious
insanity other than perhaps Iceland, Finland and Norway?
"Evolution is a theory that has collapsed in scientific terms. Countless branches of science, such as genetics, microbiology and paleontology, have revealed that the claims of Darwinism are invalid." -Adnan Oktan
I don't know what to say... I am profoundly stunned by his level of delusion- if he actually believes that. I suppose he could just be lying.
I have to repeat this quote... it's so absurd:
"The reason why evolution is still espoused in the face of this scientific defeat is ideological. What science reveals is that the universe and life are the work of Allah."
There's just one thing I'm really curious and I wish I could hear his answer... Mr. Oktan, define "science". That is all.
I have a bio professor going to Turkey this weekend to "combat the Creationists," as he put it on yesterday's lecture. He also mentioned that his sponsor has received death threats, and that Wednesday's lecture may very well have been his last. Here's hoping he's exaggerating...
I see the DI is following in the fine footsteps of our conservative wackos and exploiting some hapless third world county for their wacko ideas. This is hilarious in a sick kind of way since they are destabilizing a US ally and enabling our enemies just for their own pathetic ends.
The ISN article is no longer available..the thought police work fast.
@ #17:
You think you're joking, do you? I swear to god there are new-agers who call vaccination "Pasteurism" and claim it's invalid because- my hand to god- he renounced it on his death bed.
Shame evolutionary memetics is such a poorly studied field...
huh?
http://www.isn.ethz.ch/news/sw/catch_error.cfm?CFID=110259682&CFTOKEN=3…
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"Historians 500 years from now will talk about the religious revival of the late 20th century and early 21st century."
Yes. And they'll point and laugh.
or weep.
For those who haven't seen it yet. Google "Turkey Discovery Institute ISN" It will come up on the list. Then make go to the cashed. It's still in googles cashe. Make sure to save and repost it.
Great! Now tell me how we kick Poland out of the EU.
Keep your enemies close as they say.
Thanks Mercurious, I got to see it. So why was the article taken down? Anybody found out?
"...BTW, Turkey DOESN'T fit in. [..][T]heir whole culture is different..."
"...I hope
the European Union denies them membership and impresses
upon them that those rational European countries have no
need of their religious insanity and barbarism..."
These attitudes are exactly what islamists in Turkey hope for, to bolster their reactionary mania. Regardless of your stereotyping, a great number of rational people still live here. Even with the AKP, Turkey still remains one of the least "religiously contaminated" of all muslim-majority countries.
If Europe really ends up rejecting Turkey for fools like H. Yahya and/or the AKP, she will end up hammering the final nail to the coffins of the liberal, clear-thinking people in this country.
Einsteinyness?
QS thanks for the cache link
Maybe, but sometimes, particularly in countries where there is some semblance of democratic government (as there is in Turkey), foreigners taking a peaceful stand against problems within a Country can act as a catalyst for change, rather than as a way of hardening attitudes - I'm thinking Clinton's intervention into Northern Ireland as one example, the Western consumer boycott of apartheid South Africa as another.
I just feel that if we accept Turkey into the EU as is we send a message that the AKP e.t.c are OK, or at the very least not a factor raise much of a fuss over. Not to mention we would also be implicitly endorsing the denial and obfuscation the genocide of the Armenians that Turkey has been indulging in. Do we really want to do that in the name of political expediency?
Even with the AKP, Turkey still remains one of the least "religiously contaminated" of all muslim-majority countries.
Yes, but still it is religiously contaminated.
I couldn't care less whether Turkey was prediminantly Jewish, Christian, Islamic or Atheist -- I just do not see any point why it should be a member of the EU in the first place.
Well, the only reason that comes to mind is the fact that Turkey runs a couple of gas lines from Georgia and Azerbaijan to the Mediterranean Sea and that the US wants to station troops in Turkey to ensure the flow of crude oil coming from Arabia.
The article is back up with the following disclaimer...
"Correction (14/03/08): In the original version of this story, The Discovery Institute was referred to as a "Christian creationist organization." According to its website, it is a "secular" organization that opposes "neo-Darwinism." In an email to ISN Security Watch, a representative of the Discovery Insitute also stated that Mr Berlinski's comments focused "on the scientific criticisms of neo-Darwinism, not creationism." We regret the error."
Maybe somebody ought to let them know about Dover.
"The reason why evolution is still espoused in the face of this scientific defeat is ideological. What science reveals is that the universe and life are the work of Allah."
- Adnan Oktan
When?? When did this happen?? I'm not sure how much longer i can take this constant barrage of morons telling me that science has dis-proved evolution and never showing us how. The best I've seen so far is:
"Imagine DNA is like something that it bears a mild similarity to.... then apply some strange numbers I've come up with. HA! It doesn't work!"
RATS!! There goes my good mood. I don't suppose it's worth sending a complaint from our side to get them to correct the correction is there?
The link at the top works for me: I was even able to send off a letter to those people:
----
<>
Trust me, you had it right in the first place. Check out some of the activities of the Discover Institute getting exposed:
http://www.csicop.org/intelligentdesignwatch/kitzmiller.html
(from that article, which recounts a court case in Dover Penn in the USA):
-----------
On the Witness Stand
When I was sworn in on October 5, the defense spent the entire morning presenting arguments as to why I should not be qualified as an expert witness [26]. Judge Jones again denied the motion, meaning that he --and the whole world-- would hear what both DI and TMLC had hoped they could bar from the record: the truth about ID.
I had two tasks: to demonstrate to Judge Jones (1) that ID is creationism, thus a religious belief, and (2) that Of Pandas and People is a creationist textbook. As part of the evidence for my first task I included the words of two leading ID proponents, Phillip E. Johnson and William Dembski. Under direct examination by Eric Rothschild, I related Johnson's definition of ID as "theistic realism" or "mere creation," by which he means "that we affirm that God is objectively real as Creator, and that the reality of God is tangibly recorded in evidence accessible to science, particularly in biology." [27] To that I added Dembski's definition: "Intelligent design is just the Logos theology of John's Gospel restated in the idiom of information theory." [28] If the judge had heard nothing except these two quotes, he would have had all the evidence he needed that ID's own leaders regard it as not only creationism but also as a sectarian Christian belief. But I had much more, such as CSC fellow Mark Hartwig's 1995 Moody Magazine article in which he referred to a 1992 ID conference at Southern Methodist University as a meeting of "creationists and evolutionists," calling Dembski and Stephen Meyer "evangelical scholars." [29] During these early years, when they needed money and supporters, ID proponents openly advertised both their religiosity and their creationism.
However, none of the evidence for ID's religious, creationist identity was more important than "The Wedge Strategy," probably written in 1996 when the CSC was established but revised in 1998. Known informally as the "Wedge Document," it was leaked from a Seattle office and posted on the Internet in early 1999 [30]. DI did not acknowledge ownership of it until 2002, after I independently authenticated it and wrote about it in 2001 [31]. The technical team hired by Pepper Hamilton to create computer "demonstratives" projected the Wedge Document onto a screen in court, and I walked Judge Jones through it, explaining the most important parts. My first slide made its significance clear: "[C]ould I have the first slide, please? This is the first page of the Wedge Strategy, and this is the opening paragraph of it. Quote, 'The proposition that human beings are created in the image of God is one of the bedrock principles on which western civilization was built.' This . . . states very well the foundational belief behind the intelligent design movement and the reason that they have rejected the theory of evolution." [32] As I continued, the judge heard the strategy's explicitly Christian goals: "Design theory promises to reverse the stifling dominance of the materialistic worldview and to replace it with a science consonant with Christian and theistic convictions." [33] The folks at DI probably never imagined that an "obscure philosopher in Louisiana," as they once called me, would be using their strategy document in a trial-- or that it would be so effective in their legal undoing. (Actually, they probably did suspect its legal significance, which explains their taking three years to acknowledge it.)
------------
Whoops, the first part of my post here got truncated for some reason:
--
Nice work Reynold!
Creationists of every stripe--
The people who can stomach tripe--
Have joined together in defense
Of Faith opposed to evidence.
Islam and Christianity
Throughout the course of history
Have rarely been the best of friends
But now, it seems, their fighting ends.
Has someone finally seen the light,
And seen the reasons that they fight
Are foolish little arguments
That anyone with common sense
Could see are not worth fighting for?
Cos that would be exciting! Or
Has something posed a greater threat
Than anything encountered yet,
Through centuries of outright war?
(Remember, what they're fighting for
Is their religion--and what's odd
They share the Abrahamic God!)
Well... sorta. They have joined to fight
The most disgusting in God's sight;
The ones who stoop so awfully low
And challenge what these theists know--
That's right, those dreadful scientists
Are now the scourge that tops the lists!
The U.S. Christians on the right
Have joined together in the fight
And arm-in-arm with Muslim Turks
They fight the growing threat that lurks
In science classrooms everywhere!
Why, you can look, if you should care
From elementary school to college,
Anywhere they're spreading knowledge:
If fact and logic help you choose,
You threaten our religious views!
Holy wars, crusades, jihads,
Are minor things. This threat to God's
The greatest of the present dangers,
Making allies out of strangers.
So join me, fighting science, brother--
Tomorrow we can kill each other.
http://digitalcuttlefish.blogspot.com/2008/03/my-enemys-enemy.html
Turkey is a much more interesting case than is allowed here. There is a struggle on, and the main hope is the emergence of a strong "Islamic Democratic Party" on the lines of Europe's Christian Democratic Parties, or even Israel's Likud. The current government tick a lot of the boxes.
Unfortunately, Christian Democratic parties are by definition not "liberal", but at least they generally live up to the second part of their name. They learned this lesson (support Democracy lest worst befall you) the hard way, from the Fascists.
Unofortunately, the emerging Turkish party, now in power, sometimes tacks to the right to embellish its religious credentials, undermining a lot of the secularisation begun under the Turkish Republic's founder, Mastapha Kemal. For example, Islamic veils and scarves are forbidden to women in Universities, schools and all government buildings since the 1920s. The fear is that if the current government changes this, it will be turned into a triumph for the fundamentalists who will start to threaten women who don't wear Islamic apparel.
There is also a failure of nerve by EU leaders like Merkel and Sarkozy who are making negative noises about the EU negotiations. Trust me - Turkey is the frontier of Islamic democracy, not George Bush's Iraqi quagmire.
It is truly amazing the extent some will go to Prevent Free Speech in this country. All IDEAS of human origin should stand on their own. Intelligent design- even Richard Dawkins' panspermia brand, along with evolution, should be freely and fully explained in schools. Make it an elective. If you think humans arrived on the back of crystals, let's hear all about it. Students will examine evidence and make their decisions. What are you guys afraid of? Outward and Equal time for ID and each other idea will only prompt a more robust debate. This is America, let the best idea win! Actually the reason you are afraid and work so hard to prevent a fair hearing of ID's evidence is the complete lack of evidence for evolution. Since 1976 a resurgence of creationism has taken place however, much inspired by Dr. Henry Morris's book, "The Genesis Record". Dr. Morris, founder and President Emeritus of the Institute for Creation Research, a leading research association in America, has a team of 74 eminent scientists. Among them, "57 have earned doctorates in their fields from accredited universities". Hundreds more scientists around the world are allied with ICR and are listed on their website, having similar qualifications. These notable all mutually embrace the tenets of absolute biblical inerrant authority, and promote the position our earth is young and thoughtfully created. The following information is taken from an ICR Impact publication (April 2002 article #346) normally devoted to scientific creation evidence. This article reveals the competence and influence of some of the scientists. To show the reader the esteemed prominence of the creation worldview, a few of these Genesis believing scientists are listed here. Kenneth B. Cumming (Dean and Professor of Biology) has a Ph.D. from Harvard where he studied under Ernst Mayr, "often considered the dean of living evolutionists". Dr. Carl B. Fliermans (Microbiology) is a microbial ecologist with Dupont with over 60 technical publications. He is well known as the scientist who first identified the "Legionnaire's Disease" bacterium. Dr. Kelly Hollowell (Molecular Biology) has a Ph.D. in Molecular and Cellular Pharmacology from the University of Miami. She is also an attorney (J.D.). Dr. Hollowell's work includes a number of publications in the fields of DNA technology, cloning, and neurobiology. Dr. Raymond V. Damadian, M.D. is an inventor, most notably of the M.R.I. machine. Dr. Kurt Wise (Paleontology) has the M.A. and Ph.D. from Harvard University, having studied under the dedicated evolutionist, Stephen J. Gould. "Dr. Wise is currently in charge of the science division at Bryan College." Dr. Duane T. Gish (Senior Vice President and Professor of Biochemistry) has earned a Ph.D. in Biochemistry from the University of California at Berkeley. Beyond his career as a research chemist, and 24 articles in peer-reviewed scientific journals, Dr. Gish "is also known worldwide for winning over 300 scientific debates with evolutionists". As you can see, many fully credentialed scientists deeply intimate with the varied aspects of evolution, have wholly rejected the ideas. There are many more scientists today numbering in the thousands, who have also turned away from the monkey-man conjecture, and who now likewise embrace that an intelligent being caused the origin of man- and do so on solid Scienctific evidence!
You dumbasses had the floor in a Federal courthouse in a trial that received international media coverage. How'd that work out for you?
We're not afraid. We're pissed off and we hate you lying scumbags.
BS, Michael. Teaching the controversy - and all the other crackpot theories - would be a huge waste of time. Why not also teach astrology in our psychology classes and faith healing in our medical schools, etc. etc. Because then they're never be time to get to all the science that is overwhelmingly supported by the evidence. It would be OK to teach ID in a religious studies course, or in a critical thinking course, but Americans are so ignorant of so much science that they need to actually learn some of what we've actually discovered.
What's the "scientific evidence" you speak up that leads us to intelligent design? I recommend that you actually read the critics of creationism before you actually decide whether the evidence creationists point to supports there theories. Can you tell me what Kitcher (Abusing Science) or Futuyma's (Science on Trial) criticisms of Gish are? Didn't think so. Go study some biology.
As I understand it, the Turkish military is, at least in name, committed to keeping the country secular at gunpoint if need be. Who knows how long that will last, though...