That's nice. I'm glad there are so many young people being outspoken about their disbelief.
I remember a while back I saw a video on Youtube that listed numerous atheists, I think the idea was that atheists could be good people like these famous ones. There were many scientists mentioned, like Stephen Jay Gould, but also celebrities, writers, and others. Does anyone know what video I'm thinking of?
This is a lot like the books of 'deconversion' like 'Leaving The Fold' by Edward T. Babinski, his book even has Dan Barker's story or John Loftus' book, 'Why I Rejected Christianity'.
She's very sweet, but why does it take americans so long to work this out? The questions and decisions re abandoning faith are things that happened to me when I turned 11 and I am by no means unusual.
Perhaps, but we're also much more heavily indoctrinated at earlier ages. That takes more time to overcome. I think it's an amazing triumph of reason that ANYONE can get over believing in this sort of shit when being bombarded so constantly. That it takes longer for those of us swimming in it as opposed to those who are sprinkled with it...not so surprising.
The very thing she describes as the point at which she started questioning things was exactly the one that in my "faith walk" started me thinking "um, wait a minute..." In the words of a Turk: "Yeah, not buyin' it."
In fact this was the fuel for family dinner conversation once, and I asked the very question she asked herself of my parents. My parents didn't really have an answer, but it didn't bother me that they didn't. I'm pretty sure they know now I am REALLY not buyin' it, though I'm sure they (or rather, my mom) figure I'll come around, or will pick it back up someday. That's entirely doubtful. I haven't "come out" as an atheist to family, but that particular bomb is likely to be dropped sometime between now and December 25th, especially with the election this year.
Do people here seriously think that telling believers that their most important belief systems are "ridiculous" is going to cause anything other than offense?
A lot of believers, hearing those words would automatically see her as a 'militant fundamentalist atheist'
A good friend of mine gave up his belief when he went deep enough into it to learn greek, hebrew and aramaic, and started reading older versions of the scriptures. He concluded that if god was in the picture, it wouldn't have allowed all the translators to play fast and loose with the wording.
Sigmund, maybe so, but if someone comes up to me and starts pushing their views on me in a public venue and I let it be known that I would prefer to be left alone and that I am not particularly interested in their personal beliefs, and they continue to insist... Would you agree that I might be forgiven if I were somewhat offended? If I get a bit POed and let it be known that I think their views are, well ridiculous, maybe those good folks might actually get the idea that their behaviour is offensive, no?
Sadly, I doubt a movement of people making videos like this would get nearly the coverage, be it positive or negative, that groups such as the Rational Response Squad can muster through more "controversial" methods.
@Sigmund - what, we're supposed to be polite and play nice? Why?
I can promise you from vast experience - that conversation happens only under very defined circumstances, and it isn't because the rational person asked the believer if he/she was an atheist...
You've done something really worthwhile, and I thank you for caring enough to make it clear that there's a reasonable, nice, hopeful, positive alternative to religion. And that ordinary people can achieve it.
Wow. What impresses me most is how natural it comes across, and how joyful. And like #1, I'd really like to think that this'd be the future (and I don't mind the wordiness at all ;-)).
Her path to Atheism is so very similar to mine. I had one extra step though: I briefly converted to the Baha'i faith first. I wasn't ready to let go of religion quite yet, and Baha'i struck me as the most accepting and open-minded of religions. Once I could comfortably say "I am not a Christian" I quickly became comfortable saying, "I am not a theist."
F#20 and #23, Rernando and ronbaily,
personally I have no problem with her approach, the point I was making was that this will not be seen as 'positive atheism' by the religious. The framers tell us to advocate positive rater than negative atheism yet the reality is that any advocacy that involves reason is seen as negative to those who accept faith.
Hell seems to be the way out for a lot of folks. Once someone starts thinking through how evil a being would be that condemns good people (or even not-so-good people) to eternal hellfire, it is only a matter of time before the whole edifice comes down.
Back when I was reading about Zen, it was usually Americans they pointed to, negatively, as being the folks who tried to race toward enlightenment. This was not presented as a plus. :) I'm encouraged by anyone who manages to figure out a life lesson like atheism, even if they don't get it until they're a doddering old cuss. I do wish they'd get it earlier, because of the profoundly negative aspects religion brings to society, but it's not really an easy thing. I too got it fairly early, but then my family was progressive Methodists on my mom's side and nothing in particulars on my dad's, and they gave us a lot of leeway for a 1950s American family. Others do not have it so easy.
A good friend of mine gave up his belief when he went deep enough into it to learn greek, hebrew and aramaic, and started reading older versions of the scriptures. He concluded that if god was in the picture, it wouldn't have allowed all the translators to play fast and loose with the wording.
ain't nothing to break someone's faith like the bible itself. especially when you start learning about in earnest, studying greek and hebrew, etc.
also, this chick is cute as hell. and her points about judgementalness of evangelical christians is right on.
"I should note that, not too long after being 'born again', I starred in this very play, this very role in fact. I was told that my performance was powerful and helped to convert dozens of people and bring many more to tears. I hope these people have since recovered their sense of reason, but I guess I'll never really know. My point in all this that ... c'mon, this is some fucked up shit! Faith founded and inspired and reinforced by nothing more than a dread of the eternal consequences of not accepting the bullshit of Christianity."
...
"I just want to share the good news. My name is Nikki, and I deny the Holy Spirit. I'm not afraid. I'm not afraid any more. And you don't have to be either! Isn't that great?"
Do people here seriously think that telling believers that their most important belief systems are "ridiculous" is going to cause anything other than offense?
A lot of believers, hearing those words would automatically see her as a 'militant fundamentalist atheist'
GOT IT!
She reminds me of Lisa Brenner from The Patriot (I hated that movie, so don't jump on me). Now I realize that it isn't so much her face, but her voice and intonation.
Thanks to those who tried to help me decrypt this. Now I can finally sleep ...
Truth Machine, I think you owe that person an apology. There was no insult. And the person said was that some religious types would even happy and polite atheists, 'militant fundamentalist atheist'. The only people being insulted are the dumb religious types.
yep, same here. I was attending Bob Jones University and started asking questions like did all the Native Americans really go to hell before the white man came to America? The answer, of course, was "Yes." I began to realize that this didn't make for a "just" God. And then I began thinking about, hmm, what evidence is there for this Satan guy? Do people really need any supernatural temptation to do bad things? And so on. I took a few years to give up religion, but I did. I think much of the battle is psychological for some of us: you begin to realize subconsciously that believing differently is going to ostracize you from family and loved ones - especially within fundamentalism. I bet many people don't make it beyond that stage. Guilt about doubting is built into this sort of religion.
I think what ticks me off about this video is that she had the courage to say (at approx 18) what it's taken me much longer to say. I'm 48.
I do find a similarity in that a few weeks ago when I actually said to a couple of close friends that I was an atheist, they we so worried. They ended up taking comfort in the that they didn't think I was a real atheist but rather an agnostic.
The semantic games on this are tiring but I do find it interesting that they could deal with it if I was an agnostic but not if I was an atheist.
I tried to explain that even Dr. Dawkins doesn't say that he is 100% sure there is no God and that most atheists are simply people that say they have no preconditions. We will happily follow the evidence wherever it leads (emphasis on HAPPY and EVIDENCE). I would love to be a theist evolutionist. It would make my life ever so much more simple.
I came away from that with the understanding that agnostic is a more practical position to claim. Not that I understand the difference but it makes other people feel better if you're not an ATHEIST.
That' being said, I have a very nice leather bound, gilded copy of the Origin of Species which I keep near the door precisely so that when the JW's or other assorted proselytizers come by, I can grab it and say, "Well, you've got your Bible, but I too have a fancy gilded, leatherbound book, and it is called "The Origin of Species," what about that?"
"Do people here seriously think that telling believers that their most important belief systems are "ridiculous" is going to cause anything other than offense?"
If the facts are found by some to be offensive, is this the fault of the facts?
If you live in The Great City of Chicago you'll know that the Archer Avenue bus route is a wonderful place for street theater (there's a White Castle at Archer and Kedzie -- that always helps). Anyway, I was riding the Archer bus late one night and a fiftysomething woman boarded, settled herself across from the driver and went on a Jesus trip for us. The usual stuff -- J luvs you, do you luv J, are you ready for the end, do you read the bible, oo wah dah doo dah, ... Then she started asking us all if we were christians. She was deeply concerned about the driver, and asked him two or three times, "Are you a Christian?" The driver, clearly getting tired of the show, said, "Of course I'm a Christian; I'm a Roman Catholic!" Her eyes went wide with fright and she blurted out, "O no! Roman Catholics aren't Christian! Roman Catholics are of the Devil!"
#46, as someone once said "Facts! You can use 'facts' to prove anything that's even remotely true!" It is the examination of the evidence (or lack thereof) that leads her to the conclusion that religion is untenable (or 'ridiculous'). Her conclusion is perfectly valid but in being open about her opinion she is going to cause emotional offense to those who do their utmost to avoid a critical examination for the evidence that would support their religion.
To the religious (and perhaps I should be more specific here - those who truly believe in the tenets of their church) can there ever be such a thing as positive atheism?
"Am I a bad person for thinking her delivery needs work?"
Nah. You could tell she was nervous at times, and her eyes spent a lot of time looking to the left. But frankly, I'm just glad she didn't fall into that increasingly popular American tic of putting a rising inflection on the end of every sentence like it was a question.
Wish she would have taken the guy's note though. I would have, I'd be too curious. And it would have probably been fodder for the video.
To the religious (and perhaps I should be more specific here - those who truly believe in the tenets of their church) can there ever be such a thing as positive atheism?
If not, what possible advantage is there to be gained by pretending to a deferrence the religious have no right to expect?
"Her conclusion is perfectly valid but in being open about her opinion she is going to cause emotional offense to those who do their utmost to avoid a critical examination for the evidence that would support their religion."
In other words, like the description of the destructive behavior of women at a clearance sale*, it's true, but you shouldn't say it. Feh to that.
Wow, how distracting it was to have her read most of her essay, her eyes continually wandering away from the camera. Not as spontaneous and natural as perhaps the subject needed.
Sigmund, you have no point. Ed Darrell at Millard Fillmore's Bathtub links to a guest column in Fort Bend Now, written by a teacher who is not permitted to use the word "evolution" in her classroom because the administration doesn't want to "offend" the families of the pupils.
In the comments section, there is a beautiful quote. Perhaps you would agree with this:
I'm sorry, but I disagree. I believe any truly Godly religion encourages much critical thinking in order to interpret Biblical teachings as our loving God intended them to be interpreted.
Belief in evolution also requires faith that some scientists' and proponents' hypotheses are infallible.
I am a Christian and will stand by my faith, but please know that probably because of what I was fortunately lovingly taught as a child, I do not consider myself superior to any other human being, as I believe God and Christ love us all unconditionally (in the truest and most broadly encompassing sense of the word, "love").
...and I really don't care to debate any more, but I would like to propose that we all can agree to disagree on this topic for the sake of civility alone, without any belittling whatsoever, however intellectual, academic, self-righteous, or passive aggressive any belittling may be.
I hope you can see the problems that your accommodationist thinking leads to, your concern is misplaced here. Are you not concerned by the people who have this unrelenting need to preach whenever they get the chance? Do you concern-troll evangelical blogs?
I would guess not, but you are welcome to correct me.
Do I concern troll evangelical blogs?
No, and I don't concern troll this one either. Did you even read my posts? My point is not that I'm worried about the feelings of the religious - why should I be? - but rather a specific point about the title of this thread "This is positive atheism"
I'm not sure if you viewed the four horsemen video of Dawkins, Dennet, Harris and Hitchens that was posted on RichardDawkins.net recently but Dennett made the same point (probably a little better than I have) that any statement of atheism on logic grounds - as this woman does in this youtube clip - will be seen as an attack, or offensive in some manner, by the religious. As I've said in this very thread I have no problem with what she is doing, (I actually think its great that people have the courage to do this) just don't expect the religious to feel that it is a positive role model too. Hitchens or Harris, for instance, pointing out that religious claims are fallacious and about as believable as the story of Santa Claus is commonly described as 'negative atheism' yet I wonder if there is a qualitative difference compared to this video - at least in the minds of the shocked and dismayed god squad.
Being outspoken about your atheism is a very stupid thing to do, in my humble opinion. Jeez, folks, if you don't put on a little religion, how are ya' gonna fleece the rubes?
I believe in anything which help me get a buck outta those suckers.
I like Bach cantatas (and tatas generally, ha, ha) but you rarely here those in church anymore. They should concentrate on improving the music. Even atheists like music.
Sorry, but I'm a little tired of these "I used to be a christian but..." manifestos. How long must we patiently hand-hold these morons who are just now catching on? Christianity was always stupid. It was stupid 2,000 years ago; it's stupid now. If we are truly obligated to pleasantly smile and nod each and every time some dolt painstakingly relates his or her step-by-step acceptance of reality, it will take another 2,000 years to rid the world of this pernicious horseshit. I for one do not have that much time.
Listen, I asked begged and prayed for God to come into my life. I cleaned my house, got a bunch of nice snacks and imported beer, and stayed home from work in my best clothes.
The sonuvabitch didn't show! Crap! I had the joints all rolled and everything.
Any bastard rejects my hospitality and a polite invitation, the hell with 'em!
And I've done fine on my own, thank you.
I find myself half in agreement with you. From experience I know that some religious people will take any criticism of their fait as an insult. That's unreasonable and unfortunate. But there are arguably equally as many who would respect you for forming your own opinion. I had a philosophy professor who was a devout roman catholic, and I would constantly get into discussions with him after class about intelligent design and the god hypothesis and almost everything he had to say about science (he didn't have much to say about science, though, as one might expect). He didn't find my arguments against god insulting at all, and he didn't try to convert me (if anything, I was trying very hard to convert him, but I guess I'm not very convincing).
I guess that this professor is not the kind of "religious person" you mean when you say that this young lady will be perceived by the religious as a fanatic. I think it's really too bad that those kinds of unreasonable people exist. Their intolerance defeats the apparent purpose of their faith.
Have you tried Judaism? Oy gevalt what a mishegos! Give it a miss, especially if you value your genitals the way God made them, is my advice.
And that part about the genitals is from painful personal experience, pal, an alchoholic mohel is no laughing matter.
@35: also, this chick is cute as hell. and her points about judgementalness of evangelical christians is right on.
Hah. Speaking of which, check out the first letter on this page:
(hell yes, we need more people like her!) Check out how intelligent she sounds compared with this guy (from the above link):
To Kevin Williamson
RE 'All joking aside' (ENT, Jan. 6, year in preview in movies): In the Jan. 6 issue of ENT, you wrote that the "collapse of The Golden Compass indicates fantasy-film fatigue". I would suggest that it is nothing of the kind. The fact is, moviegoers are not interested in "fantasy" films, which portray organized religion as the "bad guy." In this case, Christ Our Lord would also be the "bad guy" for setting up organized religion for the ordered return of souls to God. I write this letter not only to tell you of these things, but also to gloat over the future success of The Chronicles of Narnia: Prince Caspian. This movie will completely crush The Golden Compass and other atheist-inspired garbage. Because people in the West want to see "good" movies inspired by the writings of Christians such as J.R.R. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis, not atheistic garbage such as The Golden Compass.
Sorry, but I'm a little tired of these "I used to be a christian but..." manifestos. How long must we patiently hand-hold these morons who are just now catching on?
Well bully for you that you weren't raised by Bible-beaters, or figured it all out before grade school. I find it kind of hard to believe, though, that we should be pissing on the people who have figured out reality too recently for your convenience. How is she asking to be "hand-held"? It sounds like she's already got it down.
I find it kind of hard to believe, though, that we should be pissing on the people who have figured out reality too recently for your convenience. How is she asking to be "hand-held"? It sounds like she's already got it down.
1.) It's not just my convenience that's at issue. 2.) She's asking to be hand-held by walking out onto the enormous stage known as YouTube where we are supposed to shower her with endless applause for discovering the obvious.
As Richard Dawkins points out, we don't need to be applauded for rejecting astrology. Why then should we need to be applauded for rejecting a stupid fairytale of virgin births and eternal salvation, etc?
I don't mean to be jumping all over this girl; she's probably a nice person (she seems nice anyway). It's just that this kind of thing is way, way, way, way overdue. Kind of like it's way overdue for people to be discovering fuel efficient cars or that McDonald's is bad for you. Yay! You bought a Prius! Bully for you!
It may just be my personal reservation, but something about her wide eyed enthusiasm puts me off a bit. It's good to see another person joining 'our side' so to speak, but I worry about people who are simply followers by nature following the bandwagon.
I'm glad you said that it might be your own personal reservation because what you said actually has little relevance to the video itself. She never quotes anyone else, she never gives off the inkling that she is following any crowd, she basically gives the impression that these thoughts and her "conversion" are her own. That is highly respectable in my book.
BDM, congratulations on life being so damn easy for you. If only we all could be so lucky.
This girl's video and others like it are probably not meant for you, or me, or anyone else. I get the feeling such videos are simply a way to help the individual to become comfortable saying "I'm an Atheist." A first step in entering a world where so many people, family and friends included, will think you're a terrible human being and not associate with you anymore because you don't believe in their sky god. That's not a very easy thing to do for most people.
I'm sure you're probably a nice person too, but your comments sound awfully condescending.
Ya' gotta watch of for the Goddies who might have a brain cell or two more than the common-run believers. You know, the ones that initiate "spontaneous" prayer, and then use it as an indictment. As an example, this was the blessing my father-in-law gave before the family Christmas dinner: "O dear Lord, let us now pray for the relief of all those innocent, virginal young daughters with whom it's almost like they were sold into white slavery when that nasty atheist Jew (a two-fer!) he took her from the bosom of her own family. May no other woman suffer the terrible torture that marriage to such a creature necessitates! And Lord, please try and show a little mercy towards those incorrogible monsters who show up for dinner stinking of weed, and eat like a pig, oh what my poor girl has to put up with..."
What was there in my post that indicated that life is easy for me? I'm posting angry blog entries in the middle of a weekday. Any reasonably observant person would infer from that a deep level of discontent. LOL
It's not just religion that pisses me off; it's our overall reluctance to embrace common sense in general. Now that gas is three bucks a gallon, for instance, and we're mired in two going on three oil-related wars, people are finally starting to kind of sort of maybe think about considering possibly buying relatively fuel efficient cars. Should they make videos patting themselves on the back for ditching their SUVs 20 years too late?
Some of us are on the 18th green. I'm sorry for expressing displeasure that it took you this long to figure out how to put the ball on the tee, but I'd like to get the game under way. Know what I mean? There's nothing new in all this atheism stuff. Robert Ingersoll spelled it all out for us a over century ago, and a century from now it'll be some other guy. It gets old.
Sorry about the golf analogy. I'm not a golfer -- honest.
I thought atheists were either cranky old white men, libertarian college undergrads, or asexual scientists/science students. As someone in the latter category, yay for cute female atheists.
Some religious people will be offended merely by our existence, and I just don't think we need to pander to their thin-skinned sensibilities. If you want to show the right way to tell this kind of story, please do so.
My guess is that, if anything, telling some rude religious stranger with boundary issues that he and his beliefs are ridiculous wasn't really intended as an earnest skeptical conversion strategy (now that would be "ridiculous".) Instead, I'm guessing the whole event could be considered a wothwhile teaching moment in practical manners: harrasing busy strangers at their place of work with uninvited religious treacle is not a way to make friends and influence others. There is a time to be nice... but this just wasn't one of those times. Hopefully, he will think twice before pulling that silly stunt on some other poor working stiff again.
BDM:
It appears that she isn't looking for validation from people like you. Rather, she's trying to encourage other people who are still making the journey -- and good for her. I'd love to live in a world where this message really was superfluous, but that's just not the world we live it. There are a lot of young kids who need to hear this. She comes across very sweet, and I would have loved to see this when I was struggling fifteen years ago.
I'm really not sure where you are coming from. For those of us that grew up in the religion-soaked, blue collar American heartland, coming out atheist is more than just some detatched intellectual exercise. It can mean the loss of friends and family, and going against years of systematic brainwashing. Most young atheist from religious baackgrounds that I knew came to their conclusions about the validity of religion first... and then spent *years* feeling guilty and isolated for doubting -- even when they KNEW they were right. Eventually, you get over it and you discover just how great life can be, but that transition period really can suck. You really should count yourself fortunate that you can't empathize.
2.) She's asking to be hand-held by walking out onto the enormous stage known as YouTube where we are supposed to shower her with endless applause for discovering the obvious.
I don't know that she's asking us to do anything. I think it's about visibility. We're always talking abou the need for people to stand up and come out...well, there she is. It makes it harder for theists to pretend like they're the default position. That's always a good thing.
Sorry, but I'm a little tired of these "I used to be a christian but..." manifestos. How long must we patiently hand-hold these morons who are just now catching on? Christianity was always stupid. It was stupid 2,000 years ago; it's stupid now. If we are truly obligated to pleasantly smile and nod each and every time some dolt painstakingly relates his or her step-by-step acceptance of reality, it will take another 2,000 years to rid the world of this pernicious horseshit. I for one do not have that much time.
Posted by: BDM | January 14, 2008 11:24 AM
Who is holding her hand? It sounds like see is smart enough and has enough of a backbone to question and ultimately reject what she was brought up with. I wish there was more like her.
As for people call christianity horseshit, people have been rejecting it for centuries. Voltaire argued against religion back in the 18th Century and his arguments still stand. Has religion come to an end? Not even close.
As it stands in the general population, atheists are a minority. Even in the realm of the secular world, atheists are still a minority. In the western world, most people are raised to be christians. For many people growing up, if they hear about atheism, it is not considered to be a nice term. Piling scorn on people who are strong enough and intelligent enough to turn against what they have been raised to be is counter productive. They show a strength of character that all of us can use.
Religion will not be disappearing in our lifetime. In fact, I fear that there will always be religious people. The best that can be hoped for is the religion is not used to make decisions for everyone. While the topic of atheism is not the most interesting thing to talk about, there are an infinite number of topics to converse about besides there being a lack of god. But we have to be visible to everyone in order to show one does not have to waste their time thinking about god. We have to show the atheists are normal folks. Most people are raised with religion, therefore, there are going to be a lot of deconversion stories. I have mine. And most of the people here have their own. They are all valuable.
J.T.,
If you're losing friends over your religious views, then they aren't your friends. As far as family goes, I guess that's a little more complicated, but if millions of homosexuals can do it then millions of atheists can too.
Are you saying there's no second step? I just see all this hand-wringing and comiserating. It seems like we want to re-live that moment of revelation (pardon the pun) over and over again. These weepy how-I-lost-my-religion testimonials aren't getting us anywhere. Let's go already. Time's a wastin'. You know who else was surrounded by religion-soaked nincompoops? Ben Franklin. Thomas Jefferson. Where would we be if all they did was sit around holding encounter sessions about how hard it was to admit their doubts? Franklin's family wouldn't even let him learn how to swim. Know what he did? He went swimming anyway.
My fear is that young doubters will see this girl's video and then...make a video and we'll never leave square one. To return to my regrettable golf analogy, great, you put the ball on the tee, now whack it off. And soon.
Most people are raised with religion, therefore, there are going to be a lot of deconversion stories. I have mine. And most of the people here have their own. They are all valuable.
So let's just keep telling them over and over and over...
A lot of believers, hearing those words would automatically see her as a 'militant fundamentalist atheist'
Well, naturally. She is, after all, an atheist whose mouth is being employed to create speech; thus she is, by definition, a "fundamentalist militant atheist."
My point is not that I'm worried about the feelings of the religious - why should I be? - but rather a specific point about the title of this thread "This is positive atheism" ... just don't expect the religious to feel that it is a positive role model too
Ok, in addition to being a jackass, you're plain stupid. Somehow, for us to think that this is positive atheism, we must expect that the religious will find it "a positive role model".
He didn't find my arguments against god insulting at all, and he didn't try to convert me (if anything, I was trying very hard to convert him, but I guess I'm not very convincing).
That is the norm. Others on here, as is just about always the case, are talking about a caricature. I have been to about a couple thousand sermons (at conservative evangelical churches) and bible studies. In no more than a handful of them did we talk about atheists, and never pejoratively. We don't hate atheists, we don't fear atheists, we don't plot against atheists, we don't shy away from befriending atheists, we don't distrust atheists, we don't avoid atheists, we enjoy talking with atheists, we find atheists, at the same rate we find Christians, interesting, charming, moral, good natured, intelligent, etc. We are not insulted that atheists view our faith as stupid (How could we? After all, the bible tells us you will find our faith foolish.) I know many of you on here like to think that we are in a constant state of us versus them (you) --but it simply is not so. Sorry, I know you want us to despise you, but we don't. We like you, and in exceptions when we don't, it is generally because you're a jerk, and we wouldn't like you if you were a Christian, either.
She's asking to be hand-held by walking out onto the enormous stage known as YouTube where we are supposed to shower her with endless applause for discovering the obvious.
You make Sigmund look like a genius. It's PZ who put her on the stage; even beforehand she was surprised that she got as much attention as she did. She's got a video blog on YouTube; these days, that's no more walking out onto an enormous stage than putting up a text blog -- most of which go unnoticed.
WTF? I have to say that I don't understand your perspective either. If it were Pat Robertson or George W. Bush coming to their senses and coming out as atheists, you might have a point about it being a bit too late. But this is a 22 year-old who grew up under severe religious doctrination.
I have nothing but admiration for what she's trying to do. And if she's fishing for some encouragement...so what? What's so bad about that?
BDM, you're aware that we did not all start "the game" at the same time? What with new generations being born, and time moving forward and all.
Just because this young woman is on step one isn't hindering anybody on steps two through ten. There are plenty of people who have been out for ages and are quite active. You're reading and commenting on one of their blogs, in fact.
Atheists are all at different stages because people all have different backgrounds, and are at different stages in life in general. In any atheist forum there are going to be a few people who seem to be "stuck" at some earlier stage -- including that rather awkward, uncomfortable stage where they keep wondering why 'other people' can't just get with it and move on. Listen long enough, though, and you start to relax.
Because this woman is 22 instead of however old PZ is?
I just don't get your gripe. She's young. Starting out. PZ's established. She isn't doing anything to slow him (or you, or the rest of us) down. Presumably, unless you were one of the rare gold-star atheists, you went through the same process. Most all of us did.
PZ helps make de-conversion stories like hers possible. In time, her de-conversion helps someone else along the same path. Circle of life, hakuna matata, and all that.
BMD, why don't you find the spot where all of the cool atheists are hanging out. You know, where everyone just knows it is all horseshit and could careless about the little people who are trying to figure out who they are and what they are doing.
I do not see where this young woman was boo-hooing and asking for our support. I seem to recall her saying, she can understand the god speakers because she used to be one. And she is already tired of those believers who seem to think that all non believers somehow never heard of Jesus. In otherwords, her video is a small contribution to questioning people that it is alright to be an atheist.
And I repeat myself in saying this, we have to keep this message out so the people who have not been taught better can find out that atheists does not mean monster. For example, all of those kids one sees in the documentary, "Jesus Camp". Guess what, not everyone one of the those are going to be true believers. Some may actually begin to question what has been crammed down them. Now how many of those kids heard anything positive about atheism? We have to show that we are around and that we are not orges. The religious types will not do that for us.
Sliming on one person does nothing. What has she done wrong. You may not be the kind of person who is willing to talk about this. Fine. But please show me where the whining, boo hooing and hand holding is at in her video.
Okay, maybe my beef here should be with PZ. All I'm saying is, some of us are a little farther along than just asking, "you mean all those African babies are going to Hell?" which is essentially what her clip amounts to. Haven't you all heard that already?
Just what are these further steps, anyway? Am I behind in this program? Will there be a test later?
Uh...the further steps are not demanding that all our candidates proclaim their "faith," or that high school graduates have firm understanding of Natural Selection, or letting go of the fact that you were raised as a christian. And yes, you are behind in this program, the test is happening now and we are failing miserably.
Before that, BDM, who would I have heard it from? My classmates, who all believed the exact same religion as me? My family, who were indoctrinated right alongside me? The libraries with no atheist books?
Religion doesn't just sit around and wait for you to ask the questions that will break the spell. There's all kinds of defenses built into a functioning religious society that head that kind of inquiry off at the pass.
If you're not from a place like rural America, you might just not get it. It's not about not having thought it through. It's about hearing all your life that certain kinds of thought, certain kinds of questions, are to be avoided at all costs because they're from the devil, trying to imperil your eternal soul.
Do you know how they tie down elephants? An adult elephant has more than enough strength to snap a rope or uproot a stake, easily. But a baby elephant doesn't. As a juvenile, it learns the futility of trying to break the rope - and so, as an adult, the power of the rope to bind is not questioned.
Growing up in rural America is a lot like that, BDM.
Uh...the further steps are not demanding that all our candidates proclaim their "faith," or that high school graduates have firm understanding of Natural Selection, or letting go of the fact that you were raised as a christian. And yes, you are behind in this program, the test is happening now and we are failing miserably.
And this blog, as you referred to earlier, is doing all of that as well. Do you think that just because he spent 5 minutes posting on someone on step one that it means he won't/can't/doesn't spend energy on steps two through ten also? It's not a zero-sum game. Ringing a bell for the new atheist who just got her wings doesn't sap so much energy from the rest of the battle that it should be discouraged. I don't see why a little encouragement is so bad.
I was going to go into a rant, but Chet did it all and better than I could have. It really is much more difficult than you can imagine if you haven't been through it. It's every single adult, every figure of authority, every other person in your peer group, all believing the same thing and consciously avoiding anything that could challenge that, because it's evil. If you spent the first 15 years of your life being told by everyone that the sky was green, you'd believe it, and would gaze at suspicion on anyone who told you that color was actually called blue (especially if you had been forewarned that anyone who told you the sky was blue was trying to trick you into hell). It really is impossible to describe to people who just think it's a matter to "get over". Coming out as an atheist in that environment is hard, too - it's not just having your parents be disappointed in you, it's knowing that they will be tormented for the rest of their days thinking that you will be eternally tortured. That's some hard shit to put on the people you love the most.
Carlie, I think the reason that I'm finally ok with saying I'm an atheist is that my parents aren't part of the equation anymore. As you said, it's some 'hard shit to put on the people you love the most'.
Maybe I'll get a divorce someday (after all, she's still a theist) but for that I'll have to wait for the kids to pass away.
Hmm, I wasn't aware that some atheists cannot walk and chew gum at the same time.
My conversion story's a doozie. It involves copious amounts of alcohol, two dead prostitutes, and the sexual violation of a goat using a track ball ripped out of an old Centipede video game. But I guess I can't tell it anymore because some people are tired of the conversion stories, so you'll all just have to use your imagination.
i'm a little late in joining the discussion, i see.
my name's nikki- you know, the girl in the video- and i have a few things to say.
i had a few goals in mind when i posted my first vlog about religion almost a week ago. one of those goals was to prompt thoughtful conversation about something that i think matters. something not as frivolous as the things on which it seems a majority of my generation (dare i say, majority of the country) are focused. i really thought i was going to be a no-name youtube atheist that maybe a small handful of people would hear. and trust me, i was fine with that. i'm glad that somehow my words have reached more than i thought they could, and have lead to meaningful discussion on this and other forums... though i don't really know how to handle the momentary attention this video seems to have developed.
like i said, i'm a newly out-ed atheist. it's all so new to me! bdm, i hope that i can travel many more steps on my road of discovering all that atheism is and can be. i don't know when i get to step two, lol! and i don't suppose i will know until i get there. i get what you're saying, though. enough talk, where's the action?!
on a personal note, i'm just finding a lot of these websites and blogs and the like. if what i have said in this (or will say in future) video has been said before, or is a tired topic... well, it's all new to me! and i'm excited about finding more people/ videos/ blogs/ etc to which i can share and relate.
another goal was to help "normalize" the face of atheism. most of the atheists with whom i am familiar- especially on yt, but also elsewhere- are just so angry! they flip off the camera and sling insults to everyone they can. these things have their place, to be sure, but i am hoping that i can put out a somewhat positive atheist vibe.
well, i guess that's all for now. i'm looking forward to further discussions!
though i don't really know how to handle the momentary attention this video seems to have developed.
that's the wonderful thing about the internet; it'll die down by next week.
ITMT, you seem to be handling it fine.
not always, but often the "angry" atheists you will run into are ones that simply are entirely fed up with the nonsensical ravings of the more ignorant theists that appear to be so common out there.
If you can manage to avoid becoming jaded after a few decades of battling these folk, that's great, but don't force it; you will need to call them morons when the shoe fits, for your own sanity.
I want to hear Todd's story too - although I'd probably draw the line before watching the video!
To perhaps extend the discussion in one particular direction I would again like to ponder on the idea of the term 'positive atheist'. The video essentially is very similar to hundreds, if not thousands already on youtube. Anyone here could find dozens that emphasize the same sentiments and path to rationality. Its not attacking the religious in any way other than letting them know that it was rationality was the means to the end (and as I said, some will find that difficult to deal with and take it as an attack on their ability to be rational - then again, thats their problem).
Is there any difference between this girls video and the hundreds of similarly themed one other than she is particularly cute? I would hope that we are not so shallow as to deem it 'positive' on this basis rather than the sentiments contained within (would an overweight middle-aged man saying the same things also be seen as just as 'positive' ? One would hope so, otherwise we are simply dealing with marketing or spin.
So then, if this is positive atheism, what do we mean by negative atheism?
rmp - yeah, the conversation with my volunteer youth minister spouse was bad enough (and ever since a topic Not To Be Discussed), I don't even want to think about having it with my grandmother or parents, oy. I phrased it pretty crudely, but there are a few things that aren't very explicable in ways other than resorting to profanity, and that seems to me like one of them.
I think the fact that there are "hundreds of similarly themed" videos to this one can really have a big impact. Again, it might seem like a bad 12-step meeting to the more rational and jaded, but sheesh, if I had seen this back in the Pleistocene when I was a teenager, I think it would have really had an impact. I didn't know any outright atheists AT ALL. Imagine that kind of sheltering. There was nothing to contradict that I was told atheists were few and far between, evil and wrong and sad and bitter people who were just mad at God. There was nothing to prove that idea wrong to me. If I had seen hundreds of smiling happy normal people who declared proudly that they were atheists, it would have shattered my worldview. Videos like nikki's are bits of rational gold for that particular type of person. They might look easy or trite to older observers, but to the right audience, the sheer enormity of them might really make a difference.
well, i guess that's all for now. i'm looking forward to further discussions!
Hey, Nikki. I enjoyed your video, and I thought a lot of the comments on YouTube in response were ridiculous and stupid. But thanks for making it. Every atheist who relates their personal story tips the scales just a little bit more in our favor.
I wouldn't have the courage to post about it on YouTube - I can't even broach the subject with my parents - so your courage is, to me at least, commendable.
Its not attacking the religious in any way other than letting them know that it was rationality was the means to the end (and as I said, some will find that difficult to deal with and take it as an attack on their ability to be rational - then again, thats their problem).
Ah, the Sigmund I'm familiar with. Previously you wrote
Do people here seriously think that telling believers that their most important belief systems are "ridiculous" is going to cause anything other than offense?
but you can't bother to even pay attention to your own arguments as you offer up new bits of sophistry.
truth machine,
I've avoided your malicious ad hominem attacks until now as its clear that you are very young. I knew a lot of similar kids in school who acted the same way as you are doing when they were in their early teens but they generally grow out of it by the time they reached 14 or 15 but at the moment you are simply embarrassing yourself.
Telling lies is not the way to win an intellectual argument. You do not know me so don't pretend that we have some sort of history - you might just get asked to prove it.
Truth Machine:
I am not trolling, unless by "trolling" you mean "disagreeing."
Chet & Carlie:
Tell me what you think would happen if you told your parents you were atheists. Would they beat you? Disown you? Stop supporting you? I can understand a certain amount of trepidation, but you two seem so fearful. What exactly scares you about sharing your religious convictions with your parents? Could it be your selling them short? Maybe they'll handle it better than you think. Or maybe it's time for the eagle to leave the nest and let the chips fall where they may.
Nikki:
Thanks for the kind words. Just keep putting one foot in front of the other and you'll get to step two eventually. And thanks for not taking my comments personally; I'm just impatient with this country's lack of progress.
BDM - It's very simple: it would cause them a great deal of pain, and I don't want to cause them pain.
It's not just a matter of them trying to accept that I'm someone other than they thought I would be, that I have different priorities and ideas and such. My siblings and I have done all kinds of 'sinful' things that we weren't raised to do, and they know about it, and can deal with it. It's not on that gentle a level. Watch those stupid Christian scare videos of ideas of people in hell. That's what they'd be sure would happen to me, and it would eat at them all the time. When I went through a several-year span of not going to church (just because I couldn't find one I liked where I was living) my grandmother asked me if I had found somewhere to attend every single time she talked to me. She thought about it almost daily. Trying to somehow get around something so horrible rooted so deeply could only happen if they gave up all of their ideas about Christianity, and that's an awful lot to tackle. It's kind of easy for me to cop out of it, because I only see them once every year or two, and easy enough to avoid in conversation otherwise. I guess for me it's a cost-benefit analysis; I don't see any benefit of them knowing right now that would justify the emotional turmoil I know it would cause to them. I like people too much to be an "absolute total complete honesty at all costs" kind of person.
Reading over my post now certainly paints me as part of the problem - I am trying to nudge them in little ways, consciously de-emphasizing religious topics when I talk to them, adding different viewpoints in when related things come up, mentioning now and then that some things really aren't that big of a deal. I'm just trying to stretch the bars a little at a time rather than detonate an explosive in the middle of the cell.
How could we? After all, the bible tells us you will find our faith foolish.) I know many of you on here like to think that we are in a constant state of us versus them (you) --but it simply is not so. Sorry, I know you want us to despise you, but we don't. We like you, and in exceptions when we don't, it is generally because you're a jerk, and we wouldn't like you if you were a Christian, either.
heddle is such a tool, he's almost a parody. He accepts genocide without issue.
Read how he writes, we, we, we, as if this tool speaks for a religion. One thing is for certain given his genocide love, lack of general rationality, and anger on many posts, he is the jerk he purports to discuss above.
Telling lies is not the way to win an intellectual argument. You do not know me so don't pretend that we have some sort of history - you might just get asked to prove it.
You're dumber than dirt. Since when does history with someone on the web have anything to do with knowing them? You can find our previous encounters via google if you can't remember them.
You have been caught telling lies. You have made a specific claim in this thread about some imaginary past encounters that is untrue. I tell you what, if you can find this famous example of me being a troll in the past and you interacting with me then post a link here. If it is true then I will retire from Pharyngula.
If you cannot then it is up to you to do the decent thing, admit you were lying and retire yourself.
Deal?
Of course it works, Sigmund, in fact I think this is the best way. It speaks to young people and says: "See, even happy sexy young women can be atheists."
The religious would have them believe atheists are crackpots, dark negative smoking delusional people, without social skills, without much joy, depressed, you name it! She is one of the few on YouTube openly showing the opposite can be true as well. She's a rational, healthy, smart (very smart) educated young attractive woman AND an atheist. Those facts alone will change people's minds while viewing her videos. She will make them listen. Suprised you, calling yourself Sigmund, wouldn't even grasp that.
I'd like to think this is our future, from a social standpoint at least; that this is the persona the next generation will embrace.
could be a bit less wordy, though.
;)
Just because:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFjH4ZqwOB4&feature=related
Yes yes yes! I love it, she is incredible
That's nice. I'm glad there are so many young people being outspoken about their disbelief.
I remember a while back I saw a video on Youtube that listed numerous atheists, I think the idea was that atheists could be good people like these famous ones. There were many scientists mentioned, like Stephen Jay Gould, but also celebrities, writers, and others. Does anyone know what video I'm thinking of?
can't say it was less wordy, but it certainly was more entertaining.
:p
This is a lot like the books of 'deconversion' like 'Leaving The Fold' by Edward T. Babinski, his book even has Dan Barker's story or John Loftus' book, 'Why I Rejected Christianity'.
Sounds like what I said. Of course, I'm not as pretty. :(
Bravo to this girl.
She's very sweet, but why does it take americans so long to work this out? The questions and decisions re abandoning faith are things that happened to me when I turned 11 and I am by no means unusual.
"and you can be too!"
She hasn't lost her evangelical spirit completely methinks :P
Hey, she's cute. And that story, with the pity, is ermarkable for its being common in so many cases.
So after watching this I did a little more poking around on YouTube and came across this little gem:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jx3EdM1DdPU
I'm typically not a laugh-out-loud type, but this really had me howling.
I love her. And she reminds me so much of an actress and I can't figure out who. It's really bothering me. Anybody?
#8
Americans are a bit...slow.
V @ #13 "Americans are a bit...slow."
Perhaps, but we're also much more heavily indoctrinated at earlier ages. That takes more time to overcome. I think it's an amazing triumph of reason that ANYONE can get over believing in this sort of shit when being bombarded so constantly. That it takes longer for those of us swimming in it as opposed to those who are sprinkled with it...not so surprising.
@ #8
You'd do well not to make broad insulting statements such as that.
The very thing she describes as the point at which she started questioning things was exactly the one that in my "faith walk" started me thinking "um, wait a minute..." In the words of a Turk: "Yeah, not buyin' it."
In fact this was the fuel for family dinner conversation once, and I asked the very question she asked herself of my parents. My parents didn't really have an answer, but it didn't bother me that they didn't. I'm pretty sure they know now I am REALLY not buyin' it, though I'm sure they (or rather, my mom) figure I'll come around, or will pick it back up someday. That's entirely doubtful. I haven't "come out" as an atheist to family, but that particular bomb is likely to be dropped sometime between now and December 25th, especially with the election this year.
Do people here seriously think that telling believers that their most important belief systems are "ridiculous" is going to cause anything other than offense?
A lot of believers, hearing those words would automatically see her as a 'militant fundamentalist atheist'
@ #8
I takes people as long as it takes. I don't think folks deserve special praise for figuring it out early.
A good friend of mine gave up his belief when he went deep enough into it to learn greek, hebrew and aramaic, and started reading older versions of the scriptures. He concluded that if god was in the picture, it wouldn't have allowed all the translators to play fast and loose with the wording.
-jcr
Sigmund, maybe so, but if someone comes up to me and starts pushing their views on me in a public venue and I let it be known that I would prefer to be left alone and that I am not particularly interested in their personal beliefs, and they continue to insist... Would you agree that I might be forgiven if I were somewhat offended? If I get a bit POed and let it be known that I think their views are, well ridiculous, maybe those good folks might actually get the idea that their behaviour is offensive, no?
Sadly, I doubt a movement of people making videos like this would get nearly the coverage, be it positive or negative, that groups such as the Rational Response Squad can muster through more "controversial" methods.
Could you be thinking of Marisa Tomei?
@Sigmund - what, we're supposed to be polite and play nice? Why?
I can promise you from vast experience - that conversation happens only under very defined circumstances, and it isn't because the rational person asked the believer if he/she was an atheist...
Whoever you are, lady: Good for you!
You've done something really worthwhile, and I thank you for caring enough to make it clear that there's a reasonable, nice, hopeful, positive alternative to religion. And that ordinary people can achieve it.
Wow. What impresses me most is how natural it comes across, and how joyful. And like #1, I'd really like to think that this'd be the future (and I don't mind the wordiness at all ;-)).
So great.
^_^J.
Her path to Atheism is so very similar to mine. I had one extra step though: I briefly converted to the Baha'i faith first. I wasn't ready to let go of religion quite yet, and Baha'i struck me as the most accepting and open-minded of religions. Once I could comfortably say "I am not a Christian" I quickly became comfortable saying, "I am not a theist."
@Zeno(#22)-
No, it's not Marissa Tomei, but thanks for trying to help me out :)
Wait a sec. Cute atheists exist? I didn't know that.
F#20 and #23, Rernando and ronbaily,
personally I have no problem with her approach, the point I was making was that this will not be seen as 'positive atheism' by the religious. The framers tell us to advocate positive rater than negative atheism yet the reality is that any advocacy that involves reason is seen as negative to those who accept faith.
"I love her. And she reminds me so much of an actress and I can't figure out who. It's really bothering me. Anybody?"
Molly Ringwald?
Hell seems to be the way out for a lot of folks. Once someone starts thinking through how evil a being would be that condemns good people (or even not-so-good people) to eternal hellfire, it is only a matter of time before the whole edifice comes down.
#8,
Back when I was reading about Zen, it was usually Americans they pointed to, negatively, as being the folks who tried to race toward enlightenment. This was not presented as a plus. :) I'm encouraged by anyone who manages to figure out a life lesson like atheism, even if they don't get it until they're a doddering old cuss. I do wish they'd get it earlier, because of the profoundly negative aspects religion brings to society, but it's not really an easy thing. I too got it fairly early, but then my family was progressive Methodists on my mom's side and nothing in particulars on my dad's, and they gave us a lot of leeway for a 1950s American family. Others do not have it so easy.
Kristen @ #12: And she reminds me so much of an actress and I can't figure out who.
I was thinking maybe Molly Ringwald:
http://images.eonline.com/eol_images/Profiles/20061006/244.ringwald.mol…
or
Elizabeth Berkley:
http://www.101lifestyle.com/images/celebs/elizabeth_berkley/prazzi-eliz…
@jcr (#19):
ain't nothing to break someone's faith like the bible itself. especially when you start learning about in earnest, studying greek and hebrew, etc.
also, this chick is cute as hell. and her points about judgementalness of evangelical christians is right on.
From the same person: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLNOntF7hVo
"I should note that, not too long after being 'born again', I starred in this very play, this very role in fact. I was told that my performance was powerful and helped to convert dozens of people and bring many more to tears. I hope these people have since recovered their sense of reason, but I guess I'll never really know. My point in all this that ... c'mon, this is some fucked up shit! Faith founded and inspired and reinforced by nothing more than a dread of the eternal consequences of not accepting the bullshit of Christianity."
...
"I just want to share the good news. My name is Nikki, and I deny the Holy Spirit. I'm not afraid. I'm not afraid any more. And you don't have to be either! Isn't that great?"
Do people here seriously think that telling believers that their most important belief systems are "ridiculous" is going to cause anything other than offense?
A lot of believers, hearing those words would automatically see her as a 'militant fundamentalist atheist'
You're a jackass, and I hope you take offense.
Am I a bad person for thinking her delivery needs work?
GOT IT!
She reminds me of Lisa Brenner from The Patriot (I hated that movie, so don't jump on me). Now I realize that it isn't so much her face, but her voice and intonation.
Thanks to those who tried to help me decrypt this. Now I can finally sleep ...
Truth Machine, I think you owe that person an apology. There was no insult. And the person said was that some religious types would even happy and polite atheists, 'militant fundamentalist atheist'. The only people being insulted are the dumb religious types.
#31
yep, same here. I was attending Bob Jones University and started asking questions like did all the Native Americans really go to hell before the white man came to America? The answer, of course, was "Yes." I began to realize that this didn't make for a "just" God. And then I began thinking about, hmm, what evidence is there for this Satan guy? Do people really need any supernatural temptation to do bad things? And so on. I took a few years to give up religion, but I did. I think much of the battle is psychological for some of us: you begin to realize subconsciously that believing differently is going to ostracize you from family and loved ones - especially within fundamentalism. I bet many people don't make it beyond that stage. Guilt about doubting is built into this sort of religion.
I think what ticks me off about this video is that she had the courage to say (at approx 18) what it's taken me much longer to say. I'm 48.
I do find a similarity in that a few weeks ago when I actually said to a couple of close friends that I was an atheist, they we so worried. They ended up taking comfort in the that they didn't think I was a real atheist but rather an agnostic.
The semantic games on this are tiring but I do find it interesting that they could deal with it if I was an agnostic but not if I was an atheist.
I tried to explain that even Dr. Dawkins doesn't say that he is 100% sure there is no God and that most atheists are simply people that say they have no preconditions. We will happily follow the evidence wherever it leads (emphasis on HAPPY and EVIDENCE). I would love to be a theist evolutionist. It would make my life ever so much more simple.
I came away from that with the understanding that agnostic is a more practical position to claim. Not that I understand the difference but it makes other people feel better if you're not an ATHEIST.
Gary F, this video could be the one you were thinking of...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdVucvo-kDU
Truth Machine, I think you owe that person an apology.
You're wrong. Perhaps you lack experience with Sigmund.
There was no insult.
You're wrong; it was quite condescending.
#43
"Perhaps you lack experience with Sigmund"
Now I'm intrigued.
You're not my ex-wife are you?
No atheist's Bible?
Hmm, what's this?
http://www.amazon.com/Atheists-Bible-Illustrious-Collection-Irreverent/…
That' being said, I have a very nice leather bound, gilded copy of the Origin of Species which I keep near the door precisely so that when the JW's or other assorted proselytizers come by, I can grab it and say, "Well, you've got your Bible, but I too have a fancy gilded, leatherbound book, and it is called "The Origin of Species," what about that?"
"Do people here seriously think that telling believers that their most important belief systems are "ridiculous" is going to cause anything other than offense?"
If the facts are found by some to be offensive, is this the fault of the facts?
"Are Catholics Christians?"
Great question, and not at all rhetorical.
If you live in The Great City of Chicago you'll know that the Archer Avenue bus route is a wonderful place for street theater (there's a White Castle at Archer and Kedzie -- that always helps). Anyway, I was riding the Archer bus late one night and a fiftysomething woman boarded, settled herself across from the driver and went on a Jesus trip for us. The usual stuff -- J luvs you, do you luv J, are you ready for the end, do you read the bible, oo wah dah doo dah, ... Then she started asking us all if we were christians. She was deeply concerned about the driver, and asked him two or three times, "Are you a Christian?" The driver, clearly getting tired of the show, said, "Of course I'm a Christian; I'm a Roman Catholic!" Her eyes went wide with fright and she blurted out, "O no! Roman Catholics aren't Christian! Roman Catholics are of the Devil!"
So much for the ecumenical spirit.
Roman Catholics are of the Devil!"
maybe she was privy to inside information?
or she just finished reading some Dan Brown dreck.
I can understand her conclusion somewhat though; it's a horribly damaging dogma. Just ask anyone with half a brain in central/south america.
#46, as someone once said "Facts! You can use 'facts' to prove anything that's even remotely true!" It is the examination of the evidence (or lack thereof) that leads her to the conclusion that religion is untenable (or 'ridiculous'). Her conclusion is perfectly valid but in being open about her opinion she is going to cause emotional offense to those who do their utmost to avoid a critical examination for the evidence that would support their religion.
To the religious (and perhaps I should be more specific here - those who truly believe in the tenets of their church) can there ever be such a thing as positive atheism?
Oooops, that should be #47
Omg, I just fell in love with that girl!
"Am I a bad person for thinking her delivery needs work?"
Nah. You could tell she was nervous at times, and her eyes spent a lot of time looking to the left. But frankly, I'm just glad she didn't fall into that increasingly popular American tic of putting a rising inflection on the end of every sentence like it was a question.
Wish she would have taken the guy's note though. I would have, I'd be too curious. And it would have probably been fodder for the video.
If not, what possible advantage is there to be gained by pretending to a deferrence the religious have no right to expect?
"Her conclusion is perfectly valid but in being open about her opinion she is going to cause emotional offense to those who do their utmost to avoid a critical examination for the evidence that would support their religion."
In other words, like the description of the destructive behavior of women at a clearance sale*, it's true, but you shouldn't say it. Feh to that.
* I didn't say it, it was Kent Brockman! Really!
Whoa, talk about positive ... again from Nikki.
Just because:
Here's a relevant and much funnier Roy Zimmerman, from Nikki's favorites:
Ted Haggard Is Completely Heterosexual (Glory How He Blew Ya)
@Kristen, Krash:
She reminds me Rebecca Pigeon.
Pidgeon
Kristen, maybe the actress you're thinking of is Amanda Bynes:
http://moviesbuff.com/images/amanda-bynes-gl5.jpg
Natalie Portman and Scarlett Johanson are both atheists by birth, and I believe that they've kept the faith.
Bravo!
She should be in theater or doing monologues on stage.
I agree with the sentiment that you don't need religion to be happy or to be a good person. Too many people think the opposite.
I thought she looked a bit like Maggie Gyllenhaal. Which is quite ironic.
I liked the, "No, I'm not a Christian -- I'm a barista!"
Think I'll borrow that line, even though I'm not a barista.
Wow, how distracting it was to have her read most of her essay, her eyes continually wandering away from the camera. Not as spontaneous and natural as perhaps the subject needed.
Sigmund, you have no point. Ed Darrell at Millard Fillmore's Bathtub links to a guest column in Fort Bend Now, written by a teacher who is not permitted to use the word "evolution" in her classroom because the administration doesn't want to "offend" the families of the pupils.
In the comments section, there is a beautiful quote. Perhaps you would agree with this:
I hope you can see the problems that your accommodationist thinking leads to, your concern is misplaced here. Are you not concerned by the people who have this unrelenting need to preach whenever they get the chance? Do you concern-troll evangelical blogs?
I would guess not, but you are welcome to correct me.
Belief in evolution also requires faith that some scientists' and proponents' hypotheses are infallible.
Could there be any more wrong with that statement? What a complete lack of understanding of how science works and what a hypothesis is.
Do I concern troll evangelical blogs?
No, and I don't concern troll this one either. Did you even read my posts? My point is not that I'm worried about the feelings of the religious - why should I be? - but rather a specific point about the title of this thread "This is positive atheism"
I'm not sure if you viewed the four horsemen video of Dawkins, Dennet, Harris and Hitchens that was posted on RichardDawkins.net recently but Dennett made the same point (probably a little better than I have) that any statement of atheism on logic grounds - as this woman does in this youtube clip - will be seen as an attack, or offensive in some manner, by the religious. As I've said in this very thread I have no problem with what she is doing, (I actually think its great that people have the courage to do this) just don't expect the religious to feel that it is a positive role model too. Hitchens or Harris, for instance, pointing out that religious claims are fallacious and about as believable as the story of Santa Claus is commonly described as 'negative atheism' yet I wonder if there is a qualitative difference compared to this video - at least in the minds of the shocked and dismayed god squad.
Being outspoken about your atheism is a very stupid thing to do, in my humble opinion. Jeez, folks, if you don't put on a little religion, how are ya' gonna fleece the rubes?
I believe in anything which help me get a buck outta those suckers.
I like Bach cantatas (and tatas generally, ha, ha) but you rarely here those in church anymore. They should concentrate on improving the music. Even atheists like music.
Sorry, but I'm a little tired of these "I used to be a christian but..." manifestos. How long must we patiently hand-hold these morons who are just now catching on? Christianity was always stupid. It was stupid 2,000 years ago; it's stupid now. If we are truly obligated to pleasantly smile and nod each and every time some dolt painstakingly relates his or her step-by-step acceptance of reality, it will take another 2,000 years to rid the world of this pernicious horseshit. I for one do not have that much time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigmund_and_the_Sea_Monsters
Listen, I asked begged and prayed for God to come into my life. I cleaned my house, got a bunch of nice snacks and imported beer, and stayed home from work in my best clothes.
The sonuvabitch didn't show! Crap! I had the joints all rolled and everything.
Any bastard rejects my hospitality and a polite invitation, the hell with 'em!
And I've done fine on my own, thank you.
The problem is when you start reading a lot or watching too many videos and movies, don`t do that, please!!
Re: Sigmund
I find myself half in agreement with you. From experience I know that some religious people will take any criticism of their fait as an insult. That's unreasonable and unfortunate. But there are arguably equally as many who would respect you for forming your own opinion. I had a philosophy professor who was a devout roman catholic, and I would constantly get into discussions with him after class about intelligent design and the god hypothesis and almost everything he had to say about science (he didn't have much to say about science, though, as one might expect). He didn't find my arguments against god insulting at all, and he didn't try to convert me (if anything, I was trying very hard to convert him, but I guess I'm not very convincing).
I guess that this professor is not the kind of "religious person" you mean when you say that this young lady will be perceived by the religious as a fanatic. I think it's really too bad that those kinds of unreasonable people exist. Their intolerance defeats the apparent purpose of their faith.
Christianity was always stupid
Have you tried Judaism? Oy gevalt what a mishegos! Give it a miss, especially if you value your genitals the way God made them, is my advice.
And that part about the genitals is from painful personal experience, pal, an alchoholic mohel is no laughing matter.
I gotta catch a boat, bye.
@35:
also, this chick is cute as hell. and her points about judgementalness of evangelical christians is right on.
Hah. Speaking of which, check out the first letter on this page:
(hell yes, we need more people like her!) Check out how intelligent she sounds compared with this guy (from the above link):
To Kevin Williamson
RE 'All joking aside' (ENT, Jan. 6, year in preview in movies): In the Jan. 6 issue of ENT, you wrote that the "collapse of The Golden Compass indicates fantasy-film fatigue". I would suggest that it is nothing of the kind. The fact is, moviegoers are not interested in "fantasy" films, which portray organized religion as the "bad guy." In this case, Christ Our Lord would also be the "bad guy" for setting up organized religion for the ordered return of souls to God. I write this letter not only to tell you of these things, but also to gloat over the future success of The Chronicles of Narnia: Prince Caspian. This movie will completely crush The Golden Compass and other atheist-inspired garbage. Because people in the West want to see "good" movies inspired by the writings of Christians such as J.R.R. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis, not atheistic garbage such as The Golden Compass.
Michael Sutka
They Put Me in Napa State mental hospital and gave me a
Lobotomy when I was just a teenager.
just because I said in response to a cleric
#@$%^^ your gawd its all in your mind, she does not exist.
I gave em a heck of a what fer though!
Well bully for you that you weren't raised by Bible-beaters, or figured it all out before grade school. I find it kind of hard to believe, though, that we should be pissing on the people who have figured out reality too recently for your convenience. How is she asking to be "hand-held"? It sounds like she's already got it down.
I like it! Gives one hope for the future. Personally, I think she looks a bit like Scarlett Johansen (sp?>
Dana Delany, definitely.
And she's a hottie too, even better! =)
Even if her youtube profile is OMG MY EYES ugly. Seriously, chica. Wow...enough with the lime green stuff.
I find it kind of hard to believe, though, that we should be pissing on the people who have figured out reality too recently for your convenience. How is she asking to be "hand-held"? It sounds like she's already got it down.
1.) It's not just my convenience that's at issue. 2.) She's asking to be hand-held by walking out onto the enormous stage known as YouTube where we are supposed to shower her with endless applause for discovering the obvious.
As Richard Dawkins points out, we don't need to be applauded for rejecting astrology. Why then should we need to be applauded for rejecting a stupid fairytale of virgin births and eternal salvation, etc?
I don't mean to be jumping all over this girl; she's probably a nice person (she seems nice anyway). It's just that this kind of thing is way, way, way, way overdue. Kind of like it's way overdue for people to be discovering fuel efficient cars or that McDonald's is bad for you. Yay! You bought a Prius! Bully for you!
Anyone from the UK think she looks a bit like our Katie Melua?
Just a bit, I'm not saying she's a spitting image. Maybe its the hair...
It may just be my personal reservation, but something about her wide eyed enthusiasm puts me off a bit. It's good to see another person joining 'our side' so to speak, but I worry about people who are simply followers by nature following the bandwagon.
*84 Mechalith:
I'm glad you said that it might be your own personal reservation because what you said actually has little relevance to the video itself. She never quotes anyone else, she never gives off the inkling that she is following any crowd, she basically gives the impression that these thoughts and her "conversion" are her own. That is highly respectable in my book.
BDM, congratulations on life being so damn easy for you. If only we all could be so lucky.
This girl's video and others like it are probably not meant for you, or me, or anyone else. I get the feeling such videos are simply a way to help the individual to become comfortable saying "I'm an Atheist." A first step in entering a world where so many people, family and friends included, will think you're a terrible human being and not associate with you anymore because you don't believe in their sky god. That's not a very easy thing to do for most people.
I'm sure you're probably a nice person too, but your comments sound awfully condescending.
Ya' gotta watch of for the Goddies who might have a brain cell or two more than the common-run believers. You know, the ones that initiate "spontaneous" prayer, and then use it as an indictment. As an example, this was the blessing my father-in-law gave before the family Christmas dinner: "O dear Lord, let us now pray for the relief of all those innocent, virginal young daughters with whom it's almost like they were sold into white slavery when that nasty atheist Jew (a two-fer!) he took her from the bosom of her own family. May no other woman suffer the terrible torture that marriage to such a creature necessitates! And Lord, please try and show a little mercy towards those incorrogible monsters who show up for dinner stinking of weed, and eat like a pig, oh what my poor girl has to put up with..."
Like I didn't know he was talking about me!
re: look alike... Im guessing Jessica Biel or Nicci Cox although I wonder how much important information I forgot to dig up those references. :(
What was there in my post that indicated that life is easy for me? I'm posting angry blog entries in the middle of a weekday. Any reasonably observant person would infer from that a deep level of discontent. LOL
It's not just religion that pisses me off; it's our overall reluctance to embrace common sense in general. Now that gas is three bucks a gallon, for instance, and we're mired in two going on three oil-related wars, people are finally starting to kind of sort of maybe think about considering possibly buying relatively fuel efficient cars. Should they make videos patting themselves on the back for ditching their SUVs 20 years too late?
Some of us are on the 18th green. I'm sorry for expressing displeasure that it took you this long to figure out how to put the ball on the tee, but I'd like to get the game under way. Know what I mean? There's nothing new in all this atheism stuff. Robert Ingersoll spelled it all out for us a over century ago, and a century from now it'll be some other guy. It gets old.
Sorry about the golf analogy. I'm not a golfer -- honest.
I thought atheists were either cranky old white men, libertarian college undergrads, or asexual scientists/science students. As someone in the latter category, yay for cute female atheists.
I think she looks like Scarlett Johansson, and I too am in love with this girl.
sigmund,
Some religious people will be offended merely by our existence, and I just don't think we need to pander to their thin-skinned sensibilities. If you want to show the right way to tell this kind of story, please do so.
My guess is that, if anything, telling some rude religious stranger with boundary issues that he and his beliefs are ridiculous wasn't really intended as an earnest skeptical conversion strategy (now that would be "ridiculous".) Instead, I'm guessing the whole event could be considered a wothwhile teaching moment in practical manners: harrasing busy strangers at their place of work with uninvited religious treacle is not a way to make friends and influence others. There is a time to be nice... but this just wasn't one of those times. Hopefully, he will think twice before pulling that silly stunt on some other poor working stiff again.
BDM:
It appears that she isn't looking for validation from people like you. Rather, she's trying to encourage other people who are still making the journey -- and good for her. I'd love to live in a world where this message really was superfluous, but that's just not the world we live it. There are a lot of young kids who need to hear this. She comes across very sweet, and I would have loved to see this when I was struggling fifteen years ago.
I'm really not sure where you are coming from. For those of us that grew up in the religion-soaked, blue collar American heartland, coming out atheist is more than just some detatched intellectual exercise. It can mean the loss of friends and family, and going against years of systematic brainwashing. Most young atheist from religious baackgrounds that I knew came to their conclusions about the validity of religion first... and then spent *years* feeling guilty and isolated for doubting -- even when they KNEW they were right. Eventually, you get over it and you discover just how great life can be, but that transition period really can suck. You really should count yourself fortunate that you can't empathize.
I think she looks like the girl from American Pie - the foreign exchange student.
I don't know that she's asking us to do anything. I think it's about visibility. We're always talking abou the need for people to stand up and come out...well, there she is. It makes it harder for theists to pretend like they're the default position. That's always a good thing.
Who is holding her hand? It sounds like see is smart enough and has enough of a backbone to question and ultimately reject what she was brought up with. I wish there was more like her.
As for people call christianity horseshit, people have been rejecting it for centuries. Voltaire argued against religion back in the 18th Century and his arguments still stand. Has religion come to an end? Not even close.
As it stands in the general population, atheists are a minority. Even in the realm of the secular world, atheists are still a minority. In the western world, most people are raised to be christians. For many people growing up, if they hear about atheism, it is not considered to be a nice term. Piling scorn on people who are strong enough and intelligent enough to turn against what they have been raised to be is counter productive. They show a strength of character that all of us can use.
Religion will not be disappearing in our lifetime. In fact, I fear that there will always be religious people. The best that can be hoped for is the religion is not used to make decisions for everyone. While the topic of atheism is not the most interesting thing to talk about, there are an infinite number of topics to converse about besides there being a lack of god. But we have to be visible to everyone in order to show one does not have to waste their time thinking about god. We have to show the atheists are normal folks. Most people are raised with religion, therefore, there are going to be a lot of deconversion stories. I have mine. And most of the people here have their own. They are all valuable.
J.T.,
If you're losing friends over your religious views, then they aren't your friends. As far as family goes, I guess that's a little more complicated, but if millions of homosexuals can do it then millions of atheists can too.
Are you saying there's no second step? I just see all this hand-wringing and comiserating. It seems like we want to re-live that moment of revelation (pardon the pun) over and over again. These weepy how-I-lost-my-religion testimonials aren't getting us anywhere. Let's go already. Time's a wastin'. You know who else was surrounded by religion-soaked nincompoops? Ben Franklin. Thomas Jefferson. Where would we be if all they did was sit around holding encounter sessions about how hard it was to admit their doubts? Franklin's family wouldn't even let him learn how to swim. Know what he did? He went swimming anyway.
My fear is that young doubters will see this girl's video and then...make a video and we'll never leave square one. To return to my regrettable golf analogy, great, you put the ball on the tee, now whack it off. And soon.
Most people are raised with religion, therefore, there are going to be a lot of deconversion stories. I have mine. And most of the people here have their own. They are all valuable.
So let's just keep telling them over and over and over...
From my experience, all the atheist women are the cutest.
A lot of believers, hearing those words would automatically see her as a 'militant fundamentalist atheist'
Well, naturally. She is, after all, an atheist whose mouth is being employed to create speech; thus she is, by definition, a "fundamentalist militant atheist."
My point is not that I'm worried about the feelings of the religious - why should I be? - but rather a specific point about the title of this thread "This is positive atheism" ... just don't expect the religious to feel that it is a positive role model too
Ok, in addition to being a jackass, you're plain stupid. Somehow, for us to think that this is positive atheism, we must expect that the religious will find it "a positive role model".
kristen in montreal
That is the norm. Others on here, as is just about always the case, are talking about a caricature. I have been to about a couple thousand sermons (at conservative evangelical churches) and bible studies. In no more than a handful of them did we talk about atheists, and never pejoratively. We don't hate atheists, we don't fear atheists, we don't plot against atheists, we don't shy away from befriending atheists, we don't distrust atheists, we don't avoid atheists, we enjoy talking with atheists, we find atheists, at the same rate we find Christians, interesting, charming, moral, good natured, intelligent, etc. We are not insulted that atheists view our faith as stupid (How could we? After all, the bible tells us you will find our faith foolish.) I know many of you on here like to think that we are in a constant state of us versus them (you) --but it simply is not so. Sorry, I know you want us to despise you, but we don't. We like you, and in exceptions when we don't, it is generally because you're a jerk, and we wouldn't like you if you were a Christian, either.
She's asking to be hand-held by walking out onto the enormous stage known as YouTube where we are supposed to shower her with endless applause for discovering the obvious.
You make Sigmund look like a genius. It's PZ who put her on the stage; even beforehand she was surprised that she got as much attention as she did. She's got a video blog on YouTube; these days, that's no more walking out onto an enormous stage than putting up a text blog -- most of which go unnoticed.
BDM:
WTF? I have to say that I don't understand your perspective either. If it were Pat Robertson or George W. Bush coming to their senses and coming out as atheists, you might have a point about it being a bit too late. But this is a 22 year-old who grew up under severe religious doctrination.
I have nothing but admiration for what she's trying to do. And if she's fishing for some encouragement...so what? What's so bad about that?
Chris
Jeezus. All I'm saying is we're suck at step one. It's like the instructions on shampoo bottles. Lather, rinse, repeat. When do we get to step two?
BDM, you're aware that we did not all start "the game" at the same time? What with new generations being born, and time moving forward and all.
Just because this young woman is on step one isn't hindering anybody on steps two through ten. There are plenty of people who have been out for ages and are quite active. You're reading and commenting on one of their blogs, in fact.
Atheists are all at different stages because people all have different backgrounds, and are at different stages in life in general. In any atheist forum there are going to be a few people who seem to be "stuck" at some earlier stage -- including that rather awkward, uncomfortable stage where they keep wondering why 'other people' can't just get with it and move on. Listen long enough, though, and you start to relax.
It's all good...
There are plenty of people who have been out for ages and are quite active. You're reading and commenting on one of their blogs, in fact.
Which is why I'm bringing this up.
Just what are these further steps, anyway? Am I behind in this program? Will there be a test later?
Because this woman is 22 instead of however old PZ is?
I just don't get your gripe. She's young. Starting out. PZ's established. She isn't doing anything to slow him (or you, or the rest of us) down. Presumably, unless you were one of the rare gold-star atheists, you went through the same process. Most all of us did.
PZ helps make de-conversion stories like hers possible. In time, her de-conversion helps someone else along the same path. Circle of life, hakuna matata, and all that.
Geez.
BMD, why don't you find the spot where all of the cool atheists are hanging out. You know, where everyone just knows it is all horseshit and could careless about the little people who are trying to figure out who they are and what they are doing.
I do not see where this young woman was boo-hooing and asking for our support. I seem to recall her saying, she can understand the god speakers because she used to be one. And she is already tired of those believers who seem to think that all non believers somehow never heard of Jesus. In otherwords, her video is a small contribution to questioning people that it is alright to be an atheist.
And I repeat myself in saying this, we have to keep this message out so the people who have not been taught better can find out that atheists does not mean monster. For example, all of those kids one sees in the documentary, "Jesus Camp". Guess what, not everyone one of the those are going to be true believers. Some may actually begin to question what has been crammed down them. Now how many of those kids heard anything positive about atheism? We have to show that we are around and that we are not orges. The religious types will not do that for us.
Sliming on one person does nothing. What has she done wrong. You may not be the kind of person who is willing to talk about this. Fine. But please show me where the whining, boo hooing and hand holding is at in her video.
Okay, maybe my beef here should be with PZ. All I'm saying is, some of us are a little farther along than just asking, "you mean all those African babies are going to Hell?" which is essentially what her clip amounts to. Haven't you all heard that already?
Just what are these further steps, anyway? Am I behind in this program? Will there be a test later?
Uh...the further steps are not demanding that all our candidates proclaim their "faith," or that high school graduates have firm understanding of Natural Selection, or letting go of the fact that you were raised as a christian. And yes, you are behind in this program, the test is happening now and we are failing miserably.
Sorry, I know you want us to despise you, but we don't.
there goes heddle, projecting again.
thanks for the demonstration, but it's not like we haven't seen it before.
I suppose you don't see any elephants in your house, either?
When do we get to step two?
82% of the US proclaims themselves xian.
so, not for a couple of generations yet, I would think.
gotta take what you can get, yes?
...I don't mean to be jumping all over this girl; she's probably a nice person (she seems nice anyway).
well, your blog IS "Big Daddy Malcontent", so I suppose it comes with the territory.
frankly, with that as a blog theme, I would have been a little worried if you came in here all smiles and sunshine.
;)
Thanks, Ichthyic.
Haven't you all heard that already?
Sure, when I went to college.
Before that, BDM, who would I have heard it from? My classmates, who all believed the exact same religion as me? My family, who were indoctrinated right alongside me? The libraries with no atheist books?
Religion doesn't just sit around and wait for you to ask the questions that will break the spell. There's all kinds of defenses built into a functioning religious society that head that kind of inquiry off at the pass.
If you're not from a place like rural America, you might just not get it. It's not about not having thought it through. It's about hearing all your life that certain kinds of thought, certain kinds of questions, are to be avoided at all costs because they're from the devil, trying to imperil your eternal soul.
Do you know how they tie down elephants? An adult elephant has more than enough strength to snap a rope or uproot a stake, easily. But a baby elephant doesn't. As a juvenile, it learns the futility of trying to break the rope - and so, as an adult, the power of the rope to bind is not questioned.
Growing up in rural America is a lot like that, BDM.
Uh...the further steps are not demanding that all our candidates proclaim their "faith," or that high school graduates have firm understanding of Natural Selection, or letting go of the fact that you were raised as a christian. And yes, you are behind in this program, the test is happening now and we are failing miserably.
And this blog, as you referred to earlier, is doing all of that as well. Do you think that just because he spent 5 minutes posting on someone on step one that it means he won't/can't/doesn't spend energy on steps two through ten also? It's not a zero-sum game. Ringing a bell for the new atheist who just got her wings doesn't sap so much energy from the rest of the battle that it should be discouraged. I don't see why a little encouragement is so bad.
I was going to go into a rant, but Chet did it all and better than I could have. It really is much more difficult than you can imagine if you haven't been through it. It's every single adult, every figure of authority, every other person in your peer group, all believing the same thing and consciously avoiding anything that could challenge that, because it's evil. If you spent the first 15 years of your life being told by everyone that the sky was green, you'd believe it, and would gaze at suspicion on anyone who told you that color was actually called blue (especially if you had been forewarned that anyone who told you the sky was blue was trying to trick you into hell). It really is impossible to describe to people who just think it's a matter to "get over". Coming out as an atheist in that environment is hard, too - it's not just having your parents be disappointed in you, it's knowing that they will be tormented for the rest of their days thinking that you will be eternally tortured. That's some hard shit to put on the people you love the most.
Carlie, I think the reason that I'm finally ok with saying I'm an atheist is that my parents aren't part of the equation anymore. As you said, it's some 'hard shit to put on the people you love the most'.
Maybe I'll get a divorce someday (after all, she's still a theist) but for that I'll have to wait for the kids to pass away.
Hmm, I wasn't aware that some atheists cannot walk and chew gum at the same time.
My conversion story's a doozie. It involves copious amounts of alcohol, two dead prostitutes, and the sexual violation of a goat using a track ball ripped out of an old Centipede video game. But I guess I can't tell it anymore because some people are tired of the conversion stories, so you'll all just have to use your imagination.
damn, I would have loved to hear it.
i'm a little late in joining the discussion, i see.
my name's nikki- you know, the girl in the video- and i have a few things to say.
i had a few goals in mind when i posted my first vlog about religion almost a week ago. one of those goals was to prompt thoughtful conversation about something that i think matters. something not as frivolous as the things on which it seems a majority of my generation (dare i say, majority of the country) are focused. i really thought i was going to be a no-name youtube atheist that maybe a small handful of people would hear. and trust me, i was fine with that. i'm glad that somehow my words have reached more than i thought they could, and have lead to meaningful discussion on this and other forums... though i don't really know how to handle the momentary attention this video seems to have developed.
like i said, i'm a newly out-ed atheist. it's all so new to me! bdm, i hope that i can travel many more steps on my road of discovering all that atheism is and can be. i don't know when i get to step two, lol! and i don't suppose i will know until i get there. i get what you're saying, though. enough talk, where's the action?!
on a personal note, i'm just finding a lot of these websites and blogs and the like. if what i have said in this (or will say in future) video has been said before, or is a tired topic... well, it's all new to me! and i'm excited about finding more people/ videos/ blogs/ etc to which i can share and relate.
another goal was to help "normalize" the face of atheism. most of the atheists with whom i am familiar- especially on yt, but also elsewhere- are just so angry! they flip off the camera and sling insults to everyone they can. these things have their place, to be sure, but i am hoping that i can put out a somewhat positive atheist vibe.
well, i guess that's all for now. i'm looking forward to further discussions!
though i don't really know how to handle the momentary attention this video seems to have developed.
that's the wonderful thing about the internet; it'll die down by next week.
ITMT, you seem to be handling it fine.
not always, but often the "angry" atheists you will run into are ones that simply are entirely fed up with the nonsensical ravings of the more ignorant theists that appear to be so common out there.
If you can manage to avoid becoming jaded after a few decades of battling these folk, that's great, but don't force it; you will need to call them morons when the shoe fits, for your own sanity.
I want to hear Todd's story too - although I'd probably draw the line before watching the video!
To perhaps extend the discussion in one particular direction I would again like to ponder on the idea of the term 'positive atheist'. The video essentially is very similar to hundreds, if not thousands already on youtube. Anyone here could find dozens that emphasize the same sentiments and path to rationality. Its not attacking the religious in any way other than letting them know that it was rationality was the means to the end (and as I said, some will find that difficult to deal with and take it as an attack on their ability to be rational - then again, thats their problem).
Is there any difference between this girls video and the hundreds of similarly themed one other than she is particularly cute? I would hope that we are not so shallow as to deem it 'positive' on this basis rather than the sentiments contained within (would an overweight middle-aged man saying the same things also be seen as just as 'positive' ? One would hope so, otherwise we are simply dealing with marketing or spin.
So then, if this is positive atheism, what do we mean by negative atheism?
rmp - yeah, the conversation with my volunteer youth minister spouse was bad enough (and ever since a topic Not To Be Discussed), I don't even want to think about having it with my grandmother or parents, oy. I phrased it pretty crudely, but there are a few things that aren't very explicable in ways other than resorting to profanity, and that seems to me like one of them.
I think the fact that there are "hundreds of similarly themed" videos to this one can really have a big impact. Again, it might seem like a bad 12-step meeting to the more rational and jaded, but sheesh, if I had seen this back in the Pleistocene when I was a teenager, I think it would have really had an impact. I didn't know any outright atheists AT ALL. Imagine that kind of sheltering. There was nothing to contradict that I was told atheists were few and far between, evil and wrong and sad and bitter people who were just mad at God. There was nothing to prove that idea wrong to me. If I had seen hundreds of smiling happy normal people who declared proudly that they were atheists, it would have shattered my worldview. Videos like nikki's are bits of rational gold for that particular type of person. They might look easy or trite to older observers, but to the right audience, the sheer enormity of them might really make a difference.
radical religious person:
TEH ALIENS MADE US,
MOTHERFUCKER.
... kristen made me do it.
well, i guess that's all for now. i'm looking forward to further discussions!
Hey, Nikki. I enjoyed your video, and I thought a lot of the comments on YouTube in response were ridiculous and stupid. But thanks for making it. Every atheist who relates their personal story tips the scales just a little bit more in our favor.
I wouldn't have the courage to post about it on YouTube - I can't even broach the subject with my parents - so your courage is, to me at least, commendable.
sorry honey your conversion story makes me want to
PUKE! WHATS NEXT ATHEIST CHURCH WITH WALLY AND THE BEAVER?
bi=polar bear? cant take the sarcasm huh?
run a background check to! why not float me a personal reply? can i expect a knock from the internet po po's
Okay, maybe my beef here should be with PZ.
No, your beef should be with yourself for being a moron.
Its not attacking the religious in any way other than letting them know that it was rationality was the means to the end (and as I said, some will find that difficult to deal with and take it as an attack on their ability to be rational - then again, thats their problem).
Ah, the Sigmund I'm familiar with. Previously you wrote
Do people here seriously think that telling believers that their most important belief systems are "ridiculous" is going to cause anything other than offense?
but you can't bother to even pay attention to your own arguments as you offer up new bits of sophistry.
I think the fact that there are "hundreds of similarly themed" videos to this one can really have a big impact.
This is so obvious that it doesn't even bear mentioning. Sigmund and BDM are just trolling.
truth machine,
I've avoided your malicious ad hominem attacks until now as its clear that you are very young. I knew a lot of similar kids in school who acted the same way as you are doing when they were in their early teens but they generally grow out of it by the time they reached 14 or 15 but at the moment you are simply embarrassing yourself.
Telling lies is not the way to win an intellectual argument. You do not know me so don't pretend that we have some sort of history - you might just get asked to prove it.
the doc gave me the long face a year ago,
you donot see me beggin for help
Maggie Gyllenhaal. Definitely.
Truth Machine:
I am not trolling, unless by "trolling" you mean "disagreeing."
Chet & Carlie:
Tell me what you think would happen if you told your parents you were atheists. Would they beat you? Disown you? Stop supporting you? I can understand a certain amount of trepidation, but you two seem so fearful. What exactly scares you about sharing your religious convictions with your parents? Could it be your selling them short? Maybe they'll handle it better than you think. Or maybe it's time for the eagle to leave the nest and let the chips fall where they may.
Nikki:
Thanks for the kind words. Just keep putting one foot in front of the other and you'll get to step two eventually. And thanks for not taking my comments personally; I'm just impatient with this country's lack of progress.
BDM - It's very simple: it would cause them a great deal of pain, and I don't want to cause them pain.
It's not just a matter of them trying to accept that I'm someone other than they thought I would be, that I have different priorities and ideas and such. My siblings and I have done all kinds of 'sinful' things that we weren't raised to do, and they know about it, and can deal with it. It's not on that gentle a level. Watch those stupid Christian scare videos of ideas of people in hell. That's what they'd be sure would happen to me, and it would eat at them all the time. When I went through a several-year span of not going to church (just because I couldn't find one I liked where I was living) my grandmother asked me if I had found somewhere to attend every single time she talked to me. She thought about it almost daily. Trying to somehow get around something so horrible rooted so deeply could only happen if they gave up all of their ideas about Christianity, and that's an awful lot to tackle. It's kind of easy for me to cop out of it, because I only see them once every year or two, and easy enough to avoid in conversation otherwise. I guess for me it's a cost-benefit analysis; I don't see any benefit of them knowing right now that would justify the emotional turmoil I know it would cause to them. I like people too much to be an "absolute total complete honesty at all costs" kind of person.
Reading over my post now certainly paints me as part of the problem - I am trying to nudge them in little ways, consciously de-emphasizing religious topics when I talk to them, adding different viewpoints in when related things come up, mentioning now and then that some things really aren't that big of a deal. I'm just trying to stretch the bars a little at a time rather than detonate an explosive in the middle of the cell.
heddle is such a tool, he's almost a parody. He accepts genocide without issue.
Read how he writes, we, we, we, as if this tool speaks for a religion. One thing is for certain given his genocide love, lack of general rationality, and anger on many posts, he is the jerk he purports to discuss above.
its clear that you are very young.
Wrong and stupid.
Telling lies is not the way to win an intellectual argument. You do not know me so don't pretend that we have some sort of history - you might just get asked to prove it.
You're dumber than dirt. Since when does history with someone on the web have anything to do with knowing them? You can find our previous encounters via google if you can't remember them.
You have been caught telling lies. You have made a specific claim in this thread about some imaginary past encounters that is untrue. I tell you what, if you can find this famous example of me being a troll in the past and you interacting with me then post a link here. If it is true then I will retire from Pharyngula.
If you cannot then it is up to you to do the decent thing, admit you were lying and retire yourself.
Deal?
Of course it works, Sigmund, in fact I think this is the best way. It speaks to young people and says: "See, even happy sexy young women can be atheists."
The religious would have them believe atheists are crackpots, dark negative smoking delusional people, without social skills, without much joy, depressed, you name it! She is one of the few on YouTube openly showing the opposite can be true as well. She's a rational, healthy, smart (very smart) educated young attractive woman AND an atheist. Those facts alone will change people's minds while viewing her videos. She will make them listen. Suprised you, calling yourself Sigmund, wouldn't even grasp that.