So the Catholic church has a problem with pedophilia. In a rational world, there's a range of options available: stop protecting priests who abuse their position, threaten convicted child-abusing priests with expulsion and excommunication, even revisit this peculiar custom of demanding celibacy for the priesthood. Alas, the Pope has his own very special solution.
Pope Benedict XVI has instructed Roman Catholics to pray "in perpetuity" to cleanse the Church of paedophile clergy. All dioceses, parishes, monasteries, convents and seminaries will be expected to organise continuous daily prayers to express penitence and to purify the clergy.
Pray harder! Exercise a completely ineffective technique more strenuously!
I do wonder how the Pope imagines god will "cleanse" the church. Just tweaking the brains of priests so they don't feel lust anymore would be a violation of free will and make a mess of centuries of theology, while having god get all Old Testament on the church and smite priests all around the world with lightning bolts would be spectacular and effective, but probably very bad PR.
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Maybe Ratzi could do something to show that people who protect child rapists won't be supported and promoted by turning over Cardinal Law to the criminal authorities here in Massachusetts.
Classic - the Catholic laity have no say in how their spiritual leaders are selected, but the pope wants them to express penance for the actions of those leaders.
I'm reminded of a classic R. A. H. comment.
"If you pray hard enough, you can make water run uphill!"
"How hard must I pray?"
"Hard enough to make water run uphill, of course!"
Whenever I am told about the wonderful forgiveness that religious people show - the usual example given is the Amish community who publicly forgave the (deceased) killer who shot dead a number of school children - I always counter with the forgiveness of the Catholic church towards pedophilic priests.
It works best if you say it with a straight face and act like you are agreeing with them.
This is remarkably offensive to those who have suffered at the hands of Catholic priests. Has this man no shame?
"This is remarkably offensive to those who have suffered at the hands of Catholic priests. Has this man no shame?"
Well it is not like Joe the Rat had Cardinal Law working to help with the ceremonies of ordaining him, or Popifying him, or whatever you call it again,,,
What's that?
He did?
Cardinal Law was actually in the ceremony itself? Even after covering up for all those child molesters?
Sorry,...my bad
Oh yeah..
Who are they praying to again? God, right? If God interferes with our lives, why didn't he already prevent these Priests from molesting these children?
Free Will you say? You mean God allows one to take away the free will of others as part of granting free will? Seems a bit convoluted now doesn't it?
But wait, God will act only if you ask him to act? So God does not control the world? Prayer does?
Oh I get it, God's will allows for, well.. what he allows, but does not allow for other things he does not? So, if he was going to do it anyway, he allows you to pray for it, even though it was already his will?
But isn't God the Alpha and Omega? So doesn't he already know what is going to happen? So, how do our prays change anything if he already knew what our prays were to be? Didn't he know that we would pray to stop these actions from occurring if we had known about them before time? Does this mean God does not care what we want, but only responds to the physical action of prayer?
The more I think about prayer, the more I think it is an amazingly example of primitive thought...
Lago, please address the Holy Father properly! His correct mob name is not 'Joe the Rat', it's 'Joey Rats'. Much more Sopranos-worthy, don't you agree?
I wonder if they are going to publish a time line for eradicating the problem. In fact they should divvy up the priests into the "prayed for" and have a control, un-prayed-for set and measure the effectiveness of said prayers.
When I used to move in more "godly" circles, "I will pray about it" in response to a call for action was code for fuck off.
God is really appalled and we are gonna pray just to be sure.
Oh no! What a great, um, loss.
I think the best mob name for the pope would be Joey Ratz
PZ wrote: "... [H]aving god get all Old Testament on the church and smite priests all around the world with lightning bolts would be spectacular and effective, but probably very bad PR."
I don't know... Atheist that I am, I would attend a church, and even contribute good money to see pedophile priests smitten by lightning. The entertainment value alone would beat a Benny Hinn spectacle.
What you expect the Catholic Church to do something constructive on the topic of sex in a timeframe that results in a solution while any of us are still alive? When money and the already dwindling supply of priests are on the line?
I've seen studies that suggest as many as 70% of all new seminarians are approached in the seminar for sex, the problem is systemic and the Vatican knows it. While JP2 was claiming it was an American problem he'd quietly paid out $2 billion to cover it up in Europe.
The evangelist Mark is clear on Jesus' teaching: whatever causeth thee to sin, chop it off or pluck it out. Unless one causes a child to sin in which case you go swimming with a millstone necklace.
Up here a priest was caught with a carboot load of child porn. The bishop did the right thing and just turned him over to the police: he did time. He had previously been the diocesan youth chaplain.
I want to see smiting!
But really, I agree with grinch @8, this is just code for "Back the fork off and leave us to molest children in peace." I really don't understand how anyone, *anyone* could possibly accept this; no matter how blinded by religiosity.
-Headdesk-
I do wonder how the Pope imagines god will "cleanse" the church. Just tweaking the brains of priests so they don't feel lust anymore would be a violation of free will and make a mess of centuries of theology,
No not really because centuries of theologians surely must have taken into account the all the violations of free will found in the Bible.
And centuries of theologians have been praying for their God to interfere with the free will of other people. Surely they couldn't have missed that in their free will arguments.
while having god get all Old Testament on the church and smite priests all around the world with lightning bolts would be spectacular and effective, but probably very bad PR.
Yeah right God flooded the whole planet and that wasn't bad PR at all. Please do read up more on your theology. Thanks!!
Pray harder stick harder.
Not even Christians really believe in the power of prayer. Ever hear a prayer to regrow a severed pinky? Is this task so difficult for the omniscient creator of the universe that it's not even worth asking for?
I think this really could work.
Basically, the Pope is asking for priests to continuously pray, all the time, not to bugger kids. If the churches put the pedo priests on this perpetual prayer duty, they will be too busy to "lay hands" on the kids. Brilliant.
Idle hands are the pedo priests' work shop.
Not sure if you have heard about this case:
The Bishop of Tenerife says that there are children who incite sexual abuse, sorry it is in spanish:
http://www.elpais.com/articulo/sociedad/obispo/Tenerife/afirma/algunos/…
Love this bit from the article:
"Cardinal Hummes said that the aim was to put a definitive stop to a scandal that had damaged the image of the Church and forced US archdioceses, including Boston and Los Angeles, to pay millions of dollars in compensation to the victims. He said that the scandal was exceptionally serious, although it was probably caused by "no more than 1 per cent" of the 400,000 Catholic priests around the world."
1% of 400,000? Ah well, that's only 4,000 child-absuing priests around the world.
Phew, I was getting worried for a moment there.
I don't know. Believe it or not, I can see this working. NO I'm not trying to troll.
Basically what Razi has said is, we are going to remind you daily you should not be doing this. If I was being told daily by the people I work with I couldn't do something, I would either make sure I was good enough to never be caught or I'd not do it. It's a very big brother like solution. If I'm reminded, then people are watching.
If it does work, they get to say see there is a god, he cleared our problem. If it doesn't work, they haven't lost anything yet, they just get to pass more silly rules about how to pray to their gods to make it work.
I wholeheartedly agree.
More smiting.... that or more ribs.
Either or.
Rev. BigBumbChimp, why have either or when we should be demanding BOTH?!
In other praying-related news, the BBC are reporting that the CoE has launched a campaign to help people out of debt: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7174585.stm
It includes a "post-Christmas "debt check", with ten points which act as warning signs that people may be spending more than they can afford." Of course it has a biblical angle so "as well as practical advice for getting a firmer grip on your finances, the campaign also features a selection of prayers, including one that calls "for a just and lasting solution" to the problem of international debt."
I love that last line, a just and lasting solution to the problem of international debt. Excuse me while I fall off my chair in a fit of giggles
#23
"Basically what Razi has said is, we are going to remind you daily you should not be doing this."
Ummhmmm. Well, people are reminded daily to do lots of things; stop at stop signs, eat their vegetables and exercise, don't invade foreign countries without just cause, and it doesn't seem to matter. Note that these things also don't go to such automatic desires such as who we want to have sex with. Doesn't seem to do much.
This is about divine intercession, not a "gosh, maybe we didn't make ourselves clear on this topic" sort of thing.
"All the time our customers ask us, 'how do you make money (making exact change)?' The answer is simple: volume."
--- First Citywide Change Bank (one of the great SNL commercial sketches)
Not quite. The stop signs are merely there and encountered. There isn't someone sitting beside every driver saying monotonously "look, there's a stop sign at which you must stop".
Of course the psychological pressure aspect of the pope's prayer idea will work best if everyone disobeys the Jesus injunction to pray in private and instead says the words out loud at (and along with) their priest, in daily religious meetings.
Dahan @26
Actually, we're not reminded daily. How often are you stopped by a cop and told, remember don't run stop signs? It used to be when one country invaded another, a larger coalition would attack the invader. As for veggies and exercise, no one is there to hold us accountable if we don't do it.
By having it drilled into your head daily (by the act of the prayer) will make them think that the pedro-police are watching. It might attune them more to look for the acts of the people that do, do it.
It is definitely a case of creating a fear based culture, but isn't that what religion is about to start with?
The logical thing would be to cut off the supply of victims. The Pope should issue an edict for all Roman Catholic churches and other facilities prohibiting minors from entering. Have people at the doors checking for picture IDs.
That policy would put his church on the same level as the US Army is for recruiting cannon fodder. In their case, buggery fodder.
The logical thing would be to cut off the supply of victims.
Exactly. If all the concerned catholics simply stopped attending church until his popieness does something rational (i.e.: they went on church-strike) then I betcha there'd be some revelations ripping right down from on high.
Oh, right - they can't do that. They're stupid and they're religion-whipped.
PZ says: "In a rational world, there's a range of options available: stop protecting priests who abuse their position, threaten convicted child-abusing priests with expulsion and excommunication, even revisit this peculiar custom of demanding celibacy for the priesthood." He contrasts such rational steps with the irrational step of praying for divine assistance.
Now let's see what the article PZ links to has to say about this.
"stop protecting priests who abuse their position" -- from the article: Pope Benedict "lifted the legal protection that the Vatican had given to Father Marcial Maciel, the Mexican founder of the Legionaries of Christ, who was accused of sexual abuse of youngsters."
"threaten convicted child-abusing priests with expulsion and excommunication" -- not quite that, but "Maciel was banned from saying Mass or speaking in public" -- in short prevented from functioning as a priest or leading his organization -- even though not convicted but only accused (although credibly, I think). This is in line with policies undertaken in the US by the national conference of bishops for priests accused of sexual abuse in general.
Furthermore, the article says: "Officials said that the prayers were in addition to support for legal action against paedophile priests by their victims and a code adopted two years ago by the Vatican to try to ensure that men "with deep-seated homosexual tendencies" do not enter seminaries to train for the priesthood."
So I'd say PZ's engaging in a little quote mining in his post.
The second point in my last quote above involves a mistaken view -- it assumes that homosexuality = pedophilia. I don't claim the Church is free of all faults. Homophobia exists. I have put in the full quote, rather than leaving that troublesome part out, precisely to avoid continuing the quote-mining battle. But if we replace the troublesome statement with "steps taken to ensure that men with pedophile tendencies do not enter seminaries" -- which is, I think, the main intention here, though awkwardly put -- then we get some pretty reasonable steps taken. The prayers are in support of such efforts, not a substitute for them.
Considering it was prayer that led them to molestation in the first place, isn't more prayer just throwing gasoline onto the fire?
Who knows what their merciless god will tell them to do next?
Reminds me of one of my favorite bits of dialog from Futurama:
As long as the church doesn't understand the very basic principle that one cannot change one's sexual orientation, anything they will say about sexual morality will be of no value.
Pedophilia is a sexual orientation. Society does not know how to deal with it. Society, rightfully, needs to condemn all mentally or physically harmful and abusive acts. In otherwords, anti-social behaviors.
So, not only do we need to forbid those acts, but also encourage those who have such tendencies to come-out and get professional help, before they act. And it's precisely on this point that society fails. If someone has pedophile tendencies, he is defacto condemned by society, therefore is incentivised to act secretely.
No treatment will make them change their orientation, but, some will help them resist acting upon their temptations.
And, no, prayer won't help.
I refer to these kinds of pray-a-paloozas as examples of the Peter Pan Principle, or the P3 as we in the biz like to refer to it. You know the one: If you believe in Tinkerbelle, clap harder.
They're not nearly as effective, however.
Makes no sense. If they are praying in perpetuity, then it won't ever go away, will it?
Besides, you can't get rid of a scandal. It's there forever. It's history, Ratface. Your history.
Telling people to bow their heads, squint and let their minds wander is way to con people into thinking the church cares (it doesn't) and acts as a force for good in the world (it doesn't).
Pope: See, I can make people do my will, by making pronouncements while wearing this pointy hat!
Wheeeeeee!
I imagine they will do the same for global warming, eventually.
Pray, you S.U.V.-driving, energy-consuming pigs, pray!
If praying actually stopped pedophilia, there might be a lot of children who had better lives, just another example of religious people ignoring evidence.
"Vatican officials said that every parish or institution should designate a person or group each day to conduct continuous prayers for the Church to rid itself of the scandal of sexual abuse by clergy."
So, they're not praying for the abuse to stop, just the scandal. And presumably, among the persons conducting the prayers will be the abusing priests. So the end result is effectively "Please God, don't let them find out about me'. Perfect, that'll stop it.
Speaking of clueless ideologues. . .
There is the Dallas Agreement, founded by the Catholic Bishops and overseen by a non-church board chaired by a layman, which is set-up to insure that the local dioceses are doing. . .among other things. . .insuring that pedophile priests ARE given over to law enforcement, and if obstinate, defrocked.
But no, you and your Horde just keep chanting and slapping yourselves on the back.
Makes you feel better about yourself. Good for you. Keep up dat ol' good time ignorance.
Basically, the Pope is asking for priests to continuously pray, all the time, not to bugger kids. If the churches put the pedo priests on this perpetual prayer duty, they will be too busy to "lay hands" on the kids. Brilliant.
Idle hands are the pedo priests' work shop.
Maybe the RCC just needs to hold some inservice workshops on how to use one's hands to relieve one's sexual drive in the privacy of one's room...by one's self.
It might do a bit more good than praying.
Lightning bolts wouldn't be bad PR.
They'd be excellent PR.
As an atheist, I might just consider heading to the cathedral across the street for communion pretty much immediately if 10,000 priests were lightning-bolt-immolated one day...
Dear God:
Thanks for the priests you sent us. However, one thing we perhaps failed to mention is that we'd prefer priests that don't sexually molest our children.
Sorry, our bad. Please forgive us for failing to specify this.
If you agree that it is not a good thing to have priests that sexually molest our children (or if you are willing to indulge our preference not to have them), could you please help us remove the ones we have?
Sincerely,
your rubes.
Just to play Devil's advocate here, heh - I think PZ misinterpreted much but not all of the point. As I understand it, the more important point of the praying is not just to get God to intervene in the life of someone other than the prayer, but to have an effect on the persons doing the praying. Of course it would be silly for Nuns to pray for Priests, but if there is a psychological centering and self-reflective aspect it might do something for the ones practicing.
Yeah, nobody, because Dallas = the whole world
Wonder if I could make a catchy one liner about this to put over my existing bumper sticker "Nothing Fails Like Prayer" (courtest of FFRF, of course).
Cheers.
sorry, misread. but even so, I can assure you this doesn't exist where I live, and whatever good it may do in the states, supposing it's not just some PR front-thing, it doesn't happen in other places.
PZ says:
Ah, but the technique is very effective, if the point of it is to condition people to be completely content and numbed to inaction by their ineffectual ways and methods of dealing with the world. It's one strategy of many that helps insure that there will be no popular challenge to corporate interests including those of churches.
I can see your point, Chris, but it's a bit desperate isn't it? The level cognitive dissonance that the reality of abuse conducted by people who should be amongst the most trusted figures that a believer knows, is difficult to imagine. Presumably believers reduce the dissonance by reassuring themselves that their god is only allowing pedophilia to test their faith and, I guess, to demonstrate the reality of original sin.
Presumably true believers do actually believe that their prayers are listened to and acted on by god (in spite of any evidence to the contrary) and that they aren't primarily addressed to their 'holy' men?!
What about the prayers of the children and others who were abused and victimized by these depraved animals? Were they not effective...or heard? A god who will not hear the plea of a child should not be revered--or prayed to-- by adults.
Maybe Pope Ratz and the entire Catholic hierarchy should pay closer attention to the Douay_Rheims Bible, Gospel According to St. Matthew, Chapter 18:
"Christ teaches humility, to beware of scandal, and to flee the occasions of sin: to denounce to the church incorrigible sinners, and to look upon such as refuse to hear the church as heathens. He promises to his disciples the power of binding and loosing: and that he will be in the midst of their assemblies. No forgiveness for them that will not forgive.
1 At that hour the disciples came to Jesus, saying: Who thinkest thou is the greater in the kingdom of heaven? 2 And Jesus calling unto him a little child, set him in the midst of them, 3 And said: Amen I say to you, unless you be converted, and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, he is the greater in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And he that shall receive one such little child in my name, receiveth me.
6 But he that shall scandalize one of these little ones that believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be drowned in the depth of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of scandals. For it must needs be that scandals come: but nevertheless woe to that man by whom the scandal cometh. 8 And if thy hand, or thy foot scandalize thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee. It is better for thee to go into life maimed or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into everlasting fire. 9 And if thy eye scandalize thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee. It is better for thee having one eye to enter into life, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. 10 See that you despise not one of these little ones: for I say to you, that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father who is in heaven. "
*****
Oh....maybe their angels did not plead their cause with the Father.....
Michael Kremer @32:
Pope Benedict "lifted the legal protection that the Vatican had given to Father Marcial Maciel, the Mexican founder of the Legionaries of Christ, who was accused of sexual abuse of youngsters."
But what on earth does that mean? Is Maciel living in the Vatican City-State? The Vatican is a sovereign state of which the pope is absolute monarch, so yes, on Vatican territory it is entirely within Ratzinger's discretion whether to afford or withdraw "legal protection" to Maciel or to anybody else. So, does this then mean that Maciel will be tried for child-rape before a Vatican court?
Or is Maciel living in Mexico (or, for that matter, anywhere else outside the Vatican)? Ratzinger's sovereignty does not extend past the Vatican walls, and beyond those walls he can neither give Maciel legal protection nor take it away. Possibly "lift legal protection" here means simply "cease suppressing evidence and suborning witnesses; start cooperating with law-enforcement officials". Now, of course it's nice if the Vatican adopts a policy of not interfering in criminal investigations in countries that the pope does not rule. But it's not, y'know, anything the RC church deserves applause for. Protecting criminals is at best immoral and, in many cases, a crime itself. Doing so is grounds for fining the institution or, in serious cases, charging its agents with crimes of their own. Not doing so isn't in any way meritorious, it's merely the minimum to be expected of any institution.
To sum up: if the pope is actually going to start imprisoning child-raping priests that he captures in his jurisdiction, I'll be mildly impressed. If all he's doing, though, is saying that his organisation, outside its home country, will no longer arrogantly assume it is above the law of other sovereigns, well, that's a positive development, I suppose, but not exactly grounds for praise.
Pray away the gay!
Pray away the gay!
Oh, "pray! I thought it was "play," and that just seems to make me g"ayer.
If the congregation is joining in prayers against pedophilia, it would be a constant reassurance to the youngsters they should speak up and the church will (in theory) side with them, not the priests. That could be effective in a big way, if the whole thing is handled right. AND it would get around the problem of priests admitting it only in confession, when it can't be taken to the police.
But the history of the Church does not give me great hope that the injured children who speak will indeed be listened to.
The Pope's perpetual pedophile priest purity & penance prayer program has already been given a years-long field test, in a little place called Jemez Springs, New Mexico, USA.
That's a beautiful spot high in the southern Rocky Mountains, where decades ago the Catholic Church established a retreat for child-abusing clergy. (It was also the site of a Zen center, a drug rehab facility, and various NewAge projects - the spiritual vibes were, like, intense, man!)
The agenda at the Church's, ah, penitentiary was one of prolonged prayer, eventually followed by a reintroduction to priestly duties through helping out in Catholic congregations around the state. It worked about as well as you'd expect: the New Mexico archdiocese -- hardly a hotbed of rebellion in the pews -- was the first to accumulate over $1,000,000,000 in liability litigation.
It made my day when Ratzinger was elected pope, as I figured him to be the candidate most likely to do the most institutional damage to the Church. So far, my prognostication seems to have been completely validated -- maybe I'll light a candle to express my thanks.
Does this also mean that next time a priest is caught at child molestation the pope gets to blame it on the congregation not praying hard enough?
Pedophilia does not equal child abuse. You can be a pedophile, but never have laid a hand on a child or even seen one undressed. The criminal and other laws also usually don't mention pedophilia, but child abuse. Most of the people put in prison for child abuse aren't pedophiles.
not too far from here (and in fact, where Ratzinger did most of his "teaching" and "research") there was a giant uproar when it was discovered the Catholic Church had taken care of a convicted child molesting priests...by moving him 30 miles.
According to the responsible bishop is was because "Jesus gave him a second chance". Now I don't wanna know WHAT exactly that second chance was for, but it sure strikes me as odd that the only people giving sex ed in the church seem to be rapists... I guess it's worth ~something~
That's a beautiful spot high in the southern Rocky Mountains, where decades ago the Catholic Church established a retreat for child-abusing clergy,...
Sounds more like they are being rewarded.
"The abuse which has caused this crisis is rightly considered a crime by society and is also an appalling sin in the eyes of God. People need to know that there is no place in the priesthood and religious life for those who would harm the young."
What about those who would harm the young by filling their heads with a lot of religious bullshit?
That's something people should find appalling.
The kids are martyrs -- the Church needs martyrs. What happens is God's Will since everything that happens is consistent with the Will of God. Otherwise, it would not happen. This is what we Catholics call theodicy.
Just because God's ways are sometimes totally inscrutable to the laity, does not means that We cannot do what We wish. We do not even need to pray about it. That is just a sop to the press.
Honest to God, who's in charge here anyway. Not in 2,000 years has He raised His Voice or Hand against US. What are you bitching about.
Benny 16
There is the Dallas Agreement, founded by the Catholic Bishops and overseen by a non-church board chaired by a layman, which is set-up to insure that the local dioceses are doing. . .among other things. . .insuring that pedophile priests ARE given over to law enforcement, and if obstinate, defrocked.
But no, you and your Horde just keep chanting and slapping yourselves on the back.
Wait. The church needed a scandal, a formal agreement, AND oversight from outside the church hierarchy to insure that the pedophiles are not protected but are turned in instead.
And then we get criticized for not bowing down in amazement over the acts of these moral leaders. Get a grip!
Pedophilia != Gay
The more you make that association, the more you strengthen another of the Church's asinine morality assertions.
Here's a case of redoubling their effort when they've lost their aim.
Bad PR? If God gets all Old Testament on the Roman Catholic Church they'll have all the followers they want. I'd think it'd be pretty good PR...
Seems that the only punishment handed down to Marcial Maciel from the Vat was an invitation to retire to a life of penitence and prayer. Regardless, Michael Kremer's point about the Vat's "support for legal action against paedophile priests" is notable. I wonder what "support" means? Financial support? If The Church were to foot the bill for legal actions taken against itself, I'd be favorably impressed.
Why did he not just suggest turning them over to the police?
Australian Atheist #5: No next question please.
Oh and Reinis (#57) WTF?
"Has this man no shame?"
Have you seen what he wears in public?
All parishes are supposed to express penitence? So the victims are supposed to express penitence for being so stupid as to allow themselves to be in the same room as a priest, the parents of victims are supposed to express penitence for giving their children to the priests to be abused, and everybody who goes to any Catholic church is supposed to express penitence for providing the culture of stupidity and submission which allowed the whole thing to happen? Yes, sounds right to me. Wait, they are supposed to express their penitence for stupidity and submissiveness by being even more stupid and submissive? (And don't forget to keep the money coming folks. You're not pimping your kids to us since you are paying us to rape them, not the other way around.)
Rey: "Have you seen what he wears in public?"
LOL of the day! Thanks! :-D
I wonder, though, how many child molesting priests actually fit the psychiatric definition of "pedophile?" I suspect the majority are situational offenders (from what I've read, this is also true of child molesters in other populations). Is there any data on this?
Xians have been praying for 2000 years, and where has it gotten them?
You would think that after all that time they would have learned what works and what doesn't, and they wouldn't all be as stupid as they still are today.
Or maybe it's just gawd's private joke.
Who else but a gay individual would want to be a priest unless your from some backwater country and it's a way to influence and food?
Why does anyone, anywhere listen to anything the RCC has to say. They have through the centuries and into today been about as immoral and corrupt as an organization gets.
Thankfully they lose more members annually than all other denominations and outside of Africa appears to be dying.
Aren't these people praying to a deity who presumably sent the original calling to these men in the first place?
Hmm. If it had been anyone besides priests, we would have RICO trials. They'd die in prison.
I don't get why they can't get it through their skulls that praying is a useless activity. I mean everytime a pope is sick a billion Catholics around the planet pray for him and the bastard inevitably dies. If god aint gonna get off his bum to the tune of a billion prayers, to save his earthly representative then I'm buggered if I know exactly what he WOULD act upon.
The Church has done tangible things. It is not just trying to pray away the problem. Please take sometime and read information that comes from the Catholic Church not just what is found in the media.
Did you know that sexual misconduct plagues US schools? Over 2,500 educators had allegations of sexual misconduct brought vs. them in a four year period from 2001 to 2005. While with the Catholic Church in the US 4,400 priests were accused of molesting minors in a fifty-two year period from 1950 to 2002. That isn't to down play what happened in the Church.
Where's the outrage against our teachers? Why wasn't this report on every TV channel and newspaper across the US when it came out last year?
It seems to me if people really had a problem with pedophilia there would be outrage vs. teachers but there isn't. People like to beat up on organized religion more than they really care for children. Here's the information if you're interested:
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20071020/D8SD2M700.html
Don, if you'd look up from kissing the Pope's ring for a second, you'd notice one important distinction between priests, rabbis, pastors, imams, and everybody else in the fucking world:
They claim that the bullshit they peddle makes people better people, despite all evidence to the contrary.
It seems to me that if theists were even marginally more moral than the average bum who believes in a different god(s) or none at all (notwithstanding some of the more extreme claims that morality solely belongs to the religious), we wouldn't be having this question, now would we?
Fucking kiddie-fucker apologist.
Don, I don't recall the Department of Education intentionally moving suspected teachers from school district to school district. I don't recall the NEA suggesting that some of the students may have acted provocatively, and thus it is only partly the teachers' fault. I don't recall school boards making claims about moral leadership.
Don said:
Did you know that sexual misconduct plagues US schools? Over 2,500 educators had allegations of sexual misconduct brought vs. them in a four year period from 2001 to 2005. While with the Catholic Church in the US 4,400 priests were accused of molesting minors in a fifty-two year period from 1950 to 2002. That isn't to down play what happened in the Church.
Where's the outrage against our teachers? Why wasn't this report on every TV channel and newspaper across the US when it came out last year?
Maybe because child-molesting teachers, unlike child-molesting priests, aren't protected by a wealthy international organization that engaged in a systematic cover-up of child abuse for decades.
When a teacher is accused of molesting a student, in most cases the teacher's superiors notify police immediately and remove that teacher from access to children. This has not been the case with the superiors of child-molesting priests.
Where's the evidence that sexual abuse by teachers has been systematically covered up and the teachers allowed to keep abusing children so long as it's kept quiet? As far as I'm aware, merely being *accused* of sexual misconduct tends to permanently end careers in teaching, whereas priests just get shuffled from one church or parish to another. Has the office of the Secretary of Education been paying out millions of dollars in hush money to try to keep it quiet? Is our present Secretary of Education asking people to simply wish for the abuse to stop, rather than taking legal action?
If not, of what possible relevance is this comparison?
This issue is addressed by today's Jesus and Mo: http://www.jesusandmo.net/2008/01/07/hills/
Being fantasy-based rather than reality-/evidence-based people, they have no valid way of determining whether that's true or not - and they know it! Otherwise the few in charge who genuinely believe they have a hotline would simply ask their god-of-the-brain-damage to say yay or nay to each new applicant - and, when they got it wrong, they would be able to blame their god for malicious misinformation or recognise that they themselves were delusional. But that would again require them to be non-fantasists first.
It's a vicious circle and it's hard to tell which of their manifest incompetence and dishonesty is the greater problem. These people simply aren't fit to run any institution, let alone one with power and privilege and the opportunity to do so much damage.
Pope Benedict XVI has instructed Roman Catholics to pray "in perpetuity" to cleanse the Church of paedophile clergy
The Latin is more aptly translated :"Stop snitching"
If not, of what possible relevance is this comparison?
I think Don's point is that it's just plain mean of us to lambaste a organisation that claims a moral high ground while supporting and protecting child-abusers (when it isn't passing out smallpox-infected blankets to aborigines and torturing scientists and women for witchcraft, that is).
Don't feel bad though, Don: looks like the JW's love their pedos just as much as the Catholics do: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/2114320.stm
Man, you guys must really miss the old days when you controlled all of Europe through terror and intimidation. Back then, you could use any number of these little toys to do God's Work without a bunch of uppity atheists spoiling your fun.
Come on, you good Catholics. Down on your knees and pray! If your child was one of those molested by Father O'Leary (who still mentors the children down at the local parish, by the way), well, you have all the more reason to pray even harder. Maybe the good father will receive a transfer to that parish over in the next town as a result.
If you don't do a good job beseeching the baby jebus, well, whatever happens is your own damn fault!
Why are people here bothering to engage Don @78 as though he were arguing in good faith? Brownian's final sentence @79 says all about Don and his sort that needs to be said.
I find it hard to believe that some of the defenders of the faith here are actually suggesting that telling Catholic priests to pray might actually be effective. Do priests forget to pray now and then unless the pope himself reminds them? I should think it is taken for granted as part of the job.
I also suspect that the priests with pedophile leanings, being human, also feel terribly guilty about it, and are probably already praying like madmen over it.
Heehee.
"Remember kids, when putting on (or taking off) your vestements with a priest in the room, always have a couple of perky angels hovering nearby. You know, just in case." Image courtesy of the Archdiocese of New York
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/g/a/2007/12/12/notes121…
"Don, I don't recall the Department of Education intentionally moving suspected teachers from school district to school district."
The teacher I had in 2nd grade used to abuse us pretty good. She would regularly slap us if we made mistakes, like going below the line when writing cursive. Worse yet, she wore this great big ring on her right hand, and she would turn it around so the stone was in her palm when she slapped you. If not that, she would use whatever she had in her hand, including rulers and/or scissors (the handles). Moreover, she was extremely emotionally abusive, as well, and would routinely humiliate students in front of everyone else. Real fun for an 8 year old, I can tell you.
The administrators learned of it a couple years after I was through (most students were scared shitless to tell anyone about what she was doing - she was big and intimidating). Finally, it came to a head, and, zoom, she was gone.
I sometimes wonder where she ended up. See, she was a nun, teaching at a catholic school. I wonder if she actually got removed from teaching, or just moved elsewhere. I really don't know.
There aren't too many people in the world that I hate, but she is one of them. If I saw her on the street today, I can't guarantee I wouldn't slug her. Even though she would probably be 80 years old, that wouldn't stop me. We were 8 year old kids, for pete's sake! What an evil, evil woman.
I am reminded of the scene in Forrest Gump when Jenny goes ballistic at her old house. "Sometimes, there just aren't enough rocks." For her sake, I hope there are no rocks around if I ever meet up again with Sister Claire Marie Meyer.
It could be effective if they literally did what was written in the article - viz "continuous daily prayers". No stopping to eat, drink or sleep, let alone taking a break to molest children. That would dispose of the whole Catholic population, not just the offenders of the faith, quite quickly. ;-)
Pablo #91,
I wonder if it's this Sister Claire Meyer?
I should have mentioned that it was at the top of page 4.
There is some seriously fucked up stuff on that news-letter, including a "High School Drama Department" that is putting on a play called "To Burn a Witch". Is that normal in Georgia?
It would appear they also can't count. Her birthday makes her 90, not 100.
Let us know if you think its her Pablo.
Now, I'm no math major...
Wait, Yes! Yes I am a math major!
So then I think it is my solemn duty to confirm that if something has an effectiveness of zero, multiplying it's practice will still achieve the same result.
"Insanity is doing the same exact thing over and over, and expecting different results."
It used to be good practice that when a doctor examined a female patient, a nurse stood by to chaperone.
In the Middle Ages, priests were so notorious for their depraved sex lives that, even now, no priest may have a woman living in his house, not even his mother.
It seems a simple matter to make the rule that no priest can ever be alone with children unless accompanied by some other responsible adult, preferably not another priest and preferably of the opposite sex.
PZ #89,
"I also suspect that the priests with pedophile leanings, being human, also feel terribly guilty about it, and are probably already praying like madmen over it."
Absolutely, the human brain is actually very good at this kind of acrobatics :
-one minute its "My God, help me to resist the temptation",
-then when the urge comes its "hmmm, that's a cute boy..."
and it go on and on indefinetely without one impacting the other.
Especially when shame forces you to stay in the closet and not seek real help.
And the more they'll pray, the more they'll be repeating themself how shameful it is, the less they'll seek real help. And the more they'll act.
I also suspect that the priests with pedophile leanings, being human, also feel terribly guilty about it, and are probably already praying like madmen over it.
I would recommend the documentary Deliver Us From Evil.It's a fantastic documentary, and is made up primarily (but not solely) of interviews with one priest, three of his victims, and their parents.
One of the fascinating things about it, and this is why I use it in my Narrative class, is the way the priest creates the situation. His narratives always describe it in terms of "an incident that happened" never "I did this" unless prodded. It's as if the dozens of children he molested (this priest was prolific) happened to be molested without anything he did. I'd guess that kind of distancing is pretty common.
Look at the way the hierarchy has dealt with it. Cardinal Law, who by all means should be in jail, got promoted to a cushy job in Rome. JPII blamed the American media. The institution refuses to acknowledge that the problem was based in the organization itself and not with individuals.
You know what I just realized? It's been 99 comments as of this writing and no one so far has pointed out that the church is institutionalizing a "predator-pray relationship."
"predator-pray relationship."
Nice.
# 100!
"Predator/ Prey". Yes indeed, but there are three parties that include the immediate predator and prey AND the really Big Predator: The memetic Authoritian Construct that eats both of them and sets up the next meal of their offspring. The mental and physical abuse is a way that the authoritarian organism of Rome reproduces. Rome isn't unique; there are plenty of wannabes about amongst the Evangelical Dominionists and any number of cults. Look how quickly the plots of Joseph Smith and Ron Hubbard took root. See the little churches with a central practice of "punishing disobedient children" with "the rod" that creep out in the news. The best human capacities are purposely destroyed to produce "submission". That is the Islamic discipline most apparent too.
Skeptic8, look again and giggle.
I would think that what this policy would actually encourage is perpetual preying.
In this neck of the woods, there have been several instances of predatory teachers being quietly removed from a particular school district for sexual abuse and getting a job in the same capacity elsewhere in the province, only to continue to offend.
In theory, the information is supposed to be passed on to higher authorities in the school system so that career action can be taken, or a mark made on their record that would be accessible by other school boards. Due to various reasons practice too often doesn't match the theory.
Some of these are the fear of school boards of wrongful dismissal suits or parental litigation, blind support by the BC Teacher's Federation (pseudo-union) for any disciplined teacher and a regulatory body (BC College of Teachers) which is dominated by teachers. Makes good grist for the media, but progress is agonising.
It is clear that those who are attracted to children sexually will go where the children are. Positions like preachers, teachers, coaches, youth leaders are all going to be fascinating for those whose orientation is such. Religion just makes it even easier, because trust is practically required.
So now if a child gets molested it's the congregations fault for not praying hard enough. Pass the buck Ratzi, pass the buck...
Seriously, don't fuck with the Church.
the catholic church is a international organization that has aided and abetted the rape of our children for centuries.
In a related story:
http://www.luxist.com/2008/01/07/the-pope-decries-luxury/
-jcr
Re #78,
Just want to make it clear that there is more than one Don who sometimes posts here.
Joey Ratz: 'Puttin da perp in perpetuity.'
To Sigmund @#4: The famous "forgiveness" of the Amish unfortunately extends to "forgiving" their own criminals, much to the detriment of the victims. As a system of dealing with crime and victimisation, it has a lot of problems.
See, for example, http://www.legalaffairs.org/issues/January-February-2005/feature_labi_j… or the pages at http://www.amishdeception.com/NewsHome.htm.
His narratives always describe it in terms of "an incident that happened" never "I did this" unless prodded.
MAJeff, I know little about the subject, but don't those who work in law enforcement consider statements such as "I'm sorry for what happened" indicators of insincerity and not true contrition?
I don't know about law enforcement, Brownian, but those statements indicate an unwillingness or inability to accept and to admit personal responsibility for "what happened." I wouldn't say, however, that "true" sincerity and contrition do not lie along continuums of forthrightness and regret - they do - or that the context in which the statements were made doesn't matter - it does. These statements may in fact be indications of progress.
What you suggest is true, though - it ain't the full monty.
You'll get no argument from me there. I didn't intend to paint an either/or picture.
I didn't think you were - but at the risk of succumbing to a stereotype, I believe the law-enforcement mind tends to do just that. That's sorta what I was addressing...
I think Kseniya answered things. The context I use it in during class is on a portion on narrative construction of the self, and how we tell stories about ourselves. So, the language is interesting as a distancing strategy.
I wasn't so clear, but that was more or less what I meant.
I wasn't so clear, but that was more or less what I meant.
I would really suggest watching the documentary. There's an incredibly disturbing section in which the priest decides to write letters to his victims, offering to meet with them. What's bizarre is that even in these letters, he writes to his victims, "These things should not have happened to you."
The distancing strategies are fascinating, and it works soooooooo well in my class on narrative.
I think that the priesthood (RC especially) attracts men who are unsure of their sexuality or don't want to deal with women. In the 1950s, about 97% of people eventually married. If you didn't want people asking you, "So, when are you getting married?" the priesthood provided a cushy escape.
Men who are inappropriately attracted to the opposite sex or to children may try to use religion to resist temptation--and end up in the priesthood. (I read somewhere that there's more heterosexual paedophilia in the church than homosexual: it just doesn't get the same publicity.)
Once in seminary, candidates are initiated into homosexual compensations for their life of public celibacy--according to one whistleblower we had here who decamped from the Scarborough, Ontario seminary.
it shouldn't come as a suprise that Ratzinger isn't actually putting effort into meaningful action on the pedophile crisis in the priesthood - after all, he was a big player in the curial coverups, was he not?
I'm glad some American dioceses have gotten over their delusion that dealing with the issue would "shock the simple laity", but not enough have.
This "pray harder" exhortation reminds me of the "strenuously object" line from A Few Good Men:
"Is that how it works? 'I object.' 'Overruled.' 'No, Your Honor, I STRENUOUSLY object!' 'Oh. Well, if you strenuously object then I should take some time to reconsider.'"
Maybe if they STRENUOUSLY pray, god will take the time to reconsider his rejection of their request to stop pedophile priests from molesting the innocent.
I think Ratzinger is serious about this. He really wants to know what God has to day about pedophile priests so he is setting all these people praying to try and hear what God has to say about it.
Remember when he was bitching and moaning about God being silent about the Holocaust. He should know, Ratzinger was there in Germany in WWII, and he didn't hear God say killing millions of people was wrong. He wants to be able to say that God really was silent about pedophile priests because Ratzinger had people praying 24/7 about it and "zey heart notting, zey see notting, zey know notting" (visualize Sergeant Shultz from Hogan's Heroes).
ROFL MAO I don't know who is more hilariuos, if you or Mr benedict... I think it's pointless 'cause is only an emotional called, not an effective rule to stop the pedophilia...
One more point: Is not this a science blog... this post have more of social thematic...
"prayer: a way to do absolutely nothing and feel like you are making a difference"