Putting women in their proper place

Hooray for cultural relativism!

Fortunately, the anti-science brainwashing hasn't worked on all girls. The winners of the Siemens (formerly Westinghouse) Competition in Math, Science and Technology were announced yesterday, and both the individual and group winners were girls. (The individual winner's project was on bone growth in zebrafish... cool.)

I blogged about it here.

I refuse to subscribe to any creed that would discourage me from playing with radio-controlled arthropods. Or, for that matter, with real arthropods.

"Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Ky., offers a marriage and family class teaching wives how to meet their husbands' needs and keep marriage exciting."

You know, if you treat this like a fortune from a fortune cookie*, it sounds like it could be very interesting!

*add "in bed" to the end of it

If I picked up the box for the "Discovery ATM Machine" my brain would explode in a fit of redundancy.
http://shopping.discovery.com/product-57057.html
And, oh look! You can even enter your secret PIN number!

If they had a class on how to fold a goddamn fitted sheet I might be tempted.

I knew my life was being wasted doing all those microclimatology classes when I should have been learning how to attend to Mr Shrek's needs ie knowing at all times where his carkeys/wallet/phone/remote are and making sure there's always cold beer in the fridge. A simple man.

And the girls' microscope is pink. And it doesn't come with any accessories, whereas the boys' blue scope does. As much as I wanted a microscope when I was a kid, if someone had given me a pink one it would have been tossed out of the window, preferably from a moving car.

Isn't the word number after PIN a redundancy? That would make it a Personal Identification Number number. Same as ATM machine, that would be an Automatic Teller Machine machine. Take that Discovery!

Today I had the to me perplexing experience of a girl who'd been showing an unusual amount of interest in me (I'm honestly not the prettiest boy around, so it was flattering) tell me that she wasn't interested after all. Why? Because I'd been treating her too much like an equal, instead of being all manly man and taking charge or what have you. And she's a nice atheist girl, too, for added strangeness. Humans... bah. Next time, I'm going for something with tentacles.

Why's everybody so down on the Discovery Diamond Dust Microscope? After she's spent all that time learning to cook, clean, sew, and fellate, shouldn't a lady be able to tell a real diamond from a cubic zirconia?

A Good Christian woman has invested much time in her chastity and career as a wife and mother. Why should she settle for anything less than a hubby netting $60Gs?

Sigh. And on the same day as girls swept the Siemens Competition in Math, Science, and Technology taking both individual and team honors.

One of the winning projects was even about Zebrafish!

I was given a real microscope (used, from a university lab) when I was 9 years old. I also owned my own soldering iron and all the legos I ever wanted. Guess what? I'm a female engineering researcher. We shape our children with every toy we give them, every game we play, even the tone of our voice when we talk to them. When I have kids, we won't have a TV in the house and no pink microscopes either.

Wow, PZ. You're behind the times! We reported on this back in October.

On the other hand, I find my sewing machine to be useful in making plush hydrothermal vent worms and quilts showing the thermohaline circulation of the oceans. ;)

I do want a radio-controlled arthropod, though.

It's my guess that a lot of people reading the link about FGM quite rightly react with revulsion. And yet, I wonder how many of those same readers have inflicted genital mutilation on their own male children?

I think there is a big double standard going on with this issue. Both types of genital mutiliation have no place in a civilised world.

It suggests that if a practice becomes a custom, it blinds people as to the morality of the practice. I could mention one other example, but lets stick to the topic that PZ raised.

The sewing machine would be of some use if it was heavy duty enough to mend horse blankets. The microscope might be useful for checking the cat for worms but pink - oh please - basic black is so much more elegant. Joyful submission? My daemon is a tiger.

I can't believe the sexism embedded in this whole program! How come I can't take a class on how to provide good dinner conversation? Oh, that's a woman's job, right. I guess it makes it all better when you have convinced the women that operating under such discrimination is good for them.

Hey, ya know who went to Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary? Mike Huckabee! He has a degree in woo (see: theology) from there.

but lets stick to the topic that PZ raised.

Exactly.

Not another thread on male circumcision. Please.

"Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Ky., offers a marriage and family class teaching wives how to meet their husbands' needs and keep marriage exciting."

Wow those Southern Baptists are more progressive than I thought. Maybe I could become an assistant for the lab part of the course to help the students get some "hands on" experience.

I think the most horrible bit of the Tierney story on female genital mutilation is the comment below it:

Wondered how long it would for people to realize sexual restraint is the key to women's power.

The free wheeling sexuality of western women destroyed their value as sexual and marital partners is also expressed by sudden collapse in just one generation of male hetereosexual identity.

-- Posted by MARK KLEIN, M.D.

This is a doctor. Someone with lives in his care. Someone who is, presumably, educated. I read it several times trying to believe it was intended as satire, but I don't think it was.

It sickens and saddens me to think that he believes all my power is between my legs, and then only if I choose to keep those legs crossed.

How to fold a fitted sheet. VSFW

Thanks Zarquon, I tried to copy it but the bastard sheet kept defying the laws of physics as I was taught them. There's some sort of Cardassian, anti-gravity thingy happening in my linen cuboard.

Discovery ATM Machine ("This at-home ATM is an excellent way to learn about saving money.")

If you think about the porn meaning for ATM, that concept is hi-LAR-ious

Ok... can I throw up now? phd x 1, working on #2, have come to understand I will always be involved in education - again, simplistically, as a woman, can I throw up now?

Wondered how long it would for people to realize sexual restraint is the key to women's power.

The free wheeling sexuality of western women destroyed their value as sexual and marital partners is also expressed by sudden collapse in just one generation of male hetereosexual identity.

-- Posted by MARK KLEIN, M.D.

Almost certainly an internet troll pretending to be a doc. Not that there aren't some wacko docs but they are outnumbered by trolls by tens of thousands to one.

Probably some loser guy who can't understand why the women he keeps abusing leave and call the cops and stuff.

Raven:

Almost certainly an internet troll pretending to be a doc.

Doctors are not immune to teh stupid.

Though I encourage you to click on the fitted sheet link. It's a better use of your time than following the rantings of anpatriarch wanna-be.

Personally, I welcome the collapse of "male heterosexual identity" (and the analogous versions for other preferences and genders, for that matter), at least the way they're using the term. People with so little character that all they can find to focus their identity on is their genital configuration and usage are to be pitied. I somehow doubt that's what they mean, though.

More later.

PZ, here's news to make you and everyone else feel a bit better:

- This year's winners of the Siemens Westinghouse Science and Technology Competition for USA high school students are all women.

- The winner ($100,000 scholarship) in the individual category is from my home town, Bethlehem, PA.

- OK, PZ, just for you: Her winning project was about genetic modulation of bone growth during zebrafish development. :-)

So when you're asking "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?", there's good news from at least one little corner of the world.

I agree with most of the comments on this thread, but what I don't get is, why is everyone objecting to the pink?

Isn't the "ugh, pink!" reaction by both men and women, combined with no objection to blue by either sex, another form of chauvinism - that the "male colour" is somehow better?

The same double standard of "masculine" attributes being better is also present in other areas - like names (names like Sam, Chris, Jamie, etc are cool for girls but how often do you see a boy with a "female" name), common expressions (e.g. having "the balls" to do something), and many others.

That "science gifts" for boys and girls thing really pisses me off. I'm of the opinion that one of the reasons that the muslim societies tanked so badly after having accomplished so much (thinking about the great byzantine era, etc) is that they decided to go fundamentalist with their doctrine concerning what women could do. Bam. You loose half your brainpower and skill. They've never recovered. So that's what the xians want for us too I guess. Criminy!

Tom at #14: I agree with you somewhat, but this is less of a double-standard than you might think. In order to fully equate the two, consider that the clitoris is the female-analogue penis (the foreskin only correlates with the clitoral hood) and that the outer labia are analogous to the scrotal sack.

If people were lopping off boys' penises and cutting away parts of their scrotum, then sewing what was left back up, *then* you'd have an argument. (And something to maybe give pause to this Shweder idiot.)

As it stands, FGM is VASTLY worse than male circumcision. If you can confront both at once, go for it, but I'd rather fight the one that's thoroughly debilitating.

Is this really a science blog or an atheist blog. Because I could care less about the social relativity of Christianity, I would rather discuss it's science, if it is to be discussed at all, PZ.

If they had a class on how to fold a goddamn fitted sheet I might be tempted

Sign me up too. I can cook, iron, darn my own socks, keep my man happy (I guess that would be me) do all that domestic shit. But I cannot fold a fitted sheet. It's the final thing keeping me from being the domestic goddess I know I'm capable of.

I agree with most of the comments on this thread, but what I don't get is, why is everyone objecting to the pink?

Because the vast majority of girls' toys are made in pink. Because marketing "geniuses" think that all they need to do to a toy to appeal to girls is to turn it pink. Because manufacturers seem to think that girls are incapable of enjoying anything that's not pink. Because boys are NOT allowed to have pink toys, so anything in pink is automatically saying that it is not a boys' toy, and "coincidentally" the pink toys are usually the ones associated with shit tasks like housecleaning. (Yes, you really can buy a toy housecleaning kit with a picture on it of a girl scrubbing the dishes with a big smile on her face. Saw it at Toys R Us this weekend.)

In this particular case, the fact that it's pink doesn't bother me nearly as much as the fact that the pink version comes with less stuff. Contents lists:

Pink scope: Real diamond dust and salt crystal comparative slide, 3 blank slides, cover and labels

Blue scope: Five vials of remarkable specimens to examine,
Five prepared slides: two insect cross sections, two plant cross-sections and one slide with a real 900-year old, Peruvian mummy wrap!, Tweezers, Eye-dropper, Measuring beaker, Spoon, Blank slides for collecting your own specimens, Experiment booklet

See any discrepancies there?

The course sounds similar to the Home Economics Degree at Iowa State back in the 1950s. I show the MST3K version of this recruiting video in my Sex and Gender class (didn't have YouTube until recently, and purchased the MST3K, so I might as well use it).

Training the ladies for domesticity. Not just for the good ol' days, apparently. *shudder*

MAJeff - fold in half to put elastic edges together, turn two corners on one side inside out and fit them inside the corners on the other side, fold the sides with one elastic edge each in about 8 inches (past the elastic bit) to make it a straight edge with the elastic on the inside, fold the top part down a little to make a new straight edge there, fold in half again to fit the new side straight edges together, fold in half the other way, realize it's still bulky and off-kilter and then wad it up in a ball and shove it into the back of the linen closet under the towels. That's my method, anyway.

Is this really a science blog or an atheist blog.

My guess would be it is whatever our genial host decides it is.

And about those pink toys for girls and blue toys for boys...

Odds are the girls' toy is CRAP, cheaply made, and ready to be thrown out in a week, so the parents have to buy more crap for their daughter.

I think it's industry indoctrination to turn women into consumer whores, and to accept less quality.

From the woman with her own woodworking shop.

realize it's still bulky and off-kilter and then wad it up in a ball and shove it into the back of the linen closet under the towels.

This is about as far as I get, except that I have sheet bags under the bed (a studio apartment doesn't afford a separate linen closet).

I think it's industry indoctrination to turn women into consumer whores, and to accept less quality.

That's what BRATZ are for.

Is this really a science blog or an atheist blog. Because I could care less about the social relativity of Christianity, I would rather discuss it's science, if it is to be discussed at all, PZ.

All you need to learn is that it's not your fucking blog, it's PZ's, and he can write about whatever the hell he wants to.

And the girls' microscope is pink.

OK, this doesn't excuse it, but as a developmental biologist, I would *kill* for a hot pink microscope.

Maybe I should put a call into Zeiss.

Well put Brownian. Just like Molly woulda said.

Is this really a science blog or an atheist blog. Because I could care less about the social relativity of Christianity, I would rather discuss it's science, if it is to be discussed at all, PZ.

Hey, Teh Phys is back! Considering he can't discuss either of those subjects intelligently, I fail to see why he bothers to differentiate.

-- CV

OK, this doesn't excuse it, but as a developmental biologist, I would *kill* for a hot pink microscope.

Maybe I should put a call into Zeiss.

For $9000, you *ought to* be able to get it in any color you want!

$9,000? For a Zeiss? My Leica was about $20,000!

If you've got a Zeiss, you don't want it flashy. You want it subtle, understated, and dignified.

MAJeff: watched the video. Would like to see the MST3K version sometime, as I can already see about a dozen jokes per minute.
I'm reminded of the old line about "She went to college to get her MRS degree."

In science, one learns to take some reports with a grain of salt. In the internet, one must learn to take some youtube presentations and other material with an anti-nausea pill.
Oh, and if anyone knows of a good reliable heavily padded keyboard, could you post a link ? I'm getting tired of having QWERTY on the left side of my forehead.

Is this really a science blog or an atheist blog. Because I could care less about the social relativity of Christianity, I would rather discuss it's science, if it is to be discussed at all, PZ.

Posted by: The Physicist | December 4, 2007 10:01 PM

Do you want to know how this is relevant? I will give two reasons.

1) This is just another of many ways of how fundamentalist religion tries to discourage people from critical thinking. Which is, unless I am gravely mistaken, one of the key components of science.

2) This is an other example of foolish people trying to discourage the intellectual potential of half the population. In other words they are working against letting women who have the desire and intelligence of following your path.

Even you have to admit that science lives in the real world.

MAJeff: watched the video. Would like to see the MST3K version sometime, as I can already see about a dozen jokes per minute.

It's on the Shorts, V1 DVD, I believe (I actually have it on VHS). Absolutely hilarious. Two highlights:

Cheerleaders at the football game: "Look at my crotch! Look at my crotch!"

and my favorite, said as an alum, "Iowa State, the high school after high school."

That film is from 1951. One of the things I do like to remind my elite northeastern students is that Iowa State was co-educational before their schools were. It may have been home ec, but it was an opportunity for a college degree that began in 1869.

The MST3K version is much less nauseating. Many laughs.

Isn't the "ugh, pink!" reaction by both men and women, combined with no objection to blue by either sex, another form of chauvinism - that the "male colour" is somehow better?

The same double standard of "masculine" attributes being better is also present in other areas - like names (names like Sam, Chris, Jamie, etc are cool for girls but how often do you see a boy with a "female" name), common expressions (e.g. having "the balls" to do something), and many others.

Or could it be that people simply don't accept the idea that certain colors or personality traits are inherently "masculine" or "feminine."

Folding a fitted sheet?? Why?

T-shirt style, knitted sheets mean you can ball them up and toss 'em in the back of the closet. Actually, I just stuff them in the corresponding pillowcases and toss them in the closet.

FWIW, I don't fold my underwear, either because, like sheets, they:

a)get all the wrinkles stretched out when you put them on

and

b)no one sees them anyway, so who cares?

Almost certainly an internet troll pretending to be a doc. Not that there aren't some wacko docs but they are outnumbered by trolls by tens of thousands to one.

I'll cling to that interpretation, raven :) Reading that comment left me with such an awful, creepy feeling.

One of the things that I bring up in these sorts of discussions is the U.S. Constitution. African Americans were given the vote (legally given the vote, I do NOT mean to push aside the obstacles faced before they were able, if they can be said to be able even today, to actually exercise their right) fifty years before women were.

African Americans were given the vote (legally given the vote, I do NOT mean to push aside the obstacles faced before they were able, if they can be said to be able even today, to actually exercise their right) fifty years before women were.

African-American men.

Greylady said:
"Isn't the "ugh, pink!" reaction by both men and women, combined with no objection to blue by either sex, another form of chauvinism - that the "male colour" is somehow better?

The same double standard of "masculine" attributes being better is also present in other areas - like names (names like Sam, Chris, Jamie, etc are cool for girls but how often do you see a boy with a "female" name), common expressions (e.g. having "the balls" to do something), and many others."

I have been trying to get people to understand this for sooo long! I like to say that women will not be considered equal until a man can walk down any street in a dress while not fearing for his safety. Til then, feminine traits are still viewed as bad.
Nice to know someone else notices this thing too :)

But I really came on here to say that in my life science courses I have taken in the last 2 years, the students have been overwhelmingly female. In my microbiology course, there are 22 women and 1 man. We women are very into science and are raising our kids to be as well...

I think there is a big double standard going on with this issue. Both types of genital mutiliation have no place in a civilised world.

Oh how the stupid hurts. It would only be "a big double standard" if the consequences were at all comparable. You might as well equate ear piercing with a prefrontal lobotomy.

African-American men

Indeed. The double whammy that African-American women have suffered under is rarely recognized.

I'll cling to that interpretation, raven :)

Taking seriously any of raven's judgments, uninformed as they are by fact or reasoning, is indeed clinging. A simple google of "MARK KLEIN, M.D" immediately yields http://www.drmarkklein.blogspot.com/ There's no reason at all, let alone "almost certainly", to think that the Republican psychiatrist whackjob isn't just what he claims to be.

There's no reason at all, let alone "almost certainly", to think that the Republican psychiatrist whackjob isn't just what he claims to be.

Oh, excuse us if we haven't resigned ourselves civilzation to the gallows just yet.

I like to say that women will not be considered equal until a man can walk down any street in a dress while not fearing for his safety.So, you've never been to Scotland then? The claymore tends to put people off dissing the kilt though, but you're always guaranteed one (English) moron asking if you're wearing underwear.

Well, I guess we should be glad that they're only offering those courses for their female students, and not forcing them into taking them. After all, hey, that's progress! A sign that decades of trying to get people to treat women as equals were not wasted! /sarcasm

There's no reason at all, let alone "almost certainly", to think that the Republican psychiatrist whackjob isn't just what he claims to be.

But he's a flower gardener. And a Christian! He can't possibly be evil.

Nice Google work, truthmachine. But now the creepy feeling is back. *sighs* What is WRONG with people? It's even worse that he's a psychiatrist. How many people has he fucked up with his poisonous ideas?

Oh, excuse us if we haven't resigned ourselves civilzation to the gallows just yet.

You're such a jackass. I haven't resigned our civilization to anything, I simply recognize that even people with M.D.s can be nuts, and am capable of doing a web search before I make claims as to what is "almost certainly" the case.

It's even worse that he's a psychiatrist. How many people has he fucked up with his poisonous ideas?

Plenty of psychiatrists far less nutty than that guy have fucked up people with their poisonous ideas. (And no, I'm not endorsing any of L. Ron Hubbard's -- as channelled by Tom Cruise -- war on psychiatry.)

OK, this doesn't excuse it, but as a developmental biologist, I would *kill* for a hot pink microscope.
Maybe I should put a call into Zeiss.

For $9000, you *ought to* be able to get it in any color you want!

$9,000? For a Zeiss? My Leica was about $20,000!
If you've got a Zeiss, you don't want it flashy. You want it subtle, understated, and dignified.

More mental masturbation over adult microscope fantasies? Won't someone think of the children!!

Now if you'll excuse me, I'll be in my bunk with my East German vintage black metal 'scope...

It's even worse that he's a psychiatrist. How many people has he fucked up with his poisonous ideas?

I dimly recall hearing about a study some years ago which suggested that as many as 30% of American psychiatrists were themselves in need of psychiatric help. Does that ring a bell with anyone?

More mental masturbation over adult microscope fantasies? Won't someone think of the children!!

ROFLMAO, windy! /reacharound

In response to truth machine #55

I do actually know that FGM causes MUCH more serious damage than MGM, as was pointed out by rachel #30. My argument is not about the degree of mutiliation, but the principle i.e. lopping off parts of people's bodies without their permission. It's wrong by any standard. Just don't do that!

And tm, you should know that it is difficult to get a point across in a short-form medium such as a blog comment, so lay off the insults. That's just plain rude.

dwarf zebu wrote:

FWIW, I don't fold my underwear, either because, like sheets, they:

a) get all the wrinkles stretched out when you put them on

and

b) no one sees them anyway, so who cares?

dz, the fact that "no one sees them anyway" is Nature's way of telling you who cares, and thus why you should fold both. :-)

oooh, this brings back some Really Bad Memories ..my pop's favorite expression was, "women can't do that!" ....and i was a tomboy who like climbing trees and being physically active

thank god! for the women's lib movement or i would have accepted this abusive delusional thinking as normal

thank god! for the women's lib movement or i would have accepted this abusive delusional thinking as normal

*nods* That's why I openly identify as a feminist. We've still got a LARGE way to go yet before we achieve equality, but we have made strides, and those totally rock! :)

I mean, I'm a woman with degrees in astrophysics and sociology, who played soccer, skied and swam competitively, and dabbled in a bunch of other sports, including rugby. I also can, you know, own shit. And I'm finishing my PhD

I thank feminism for all that nearly every day. Now if only I could walk down the street without being harassed and be paid the same for the same work, things would be even better.

The Discovery Store isn't contributing to that.

Hey! I want a radio-controlled arthropod! No fair!

Of course, when I was a kid, I would have got one.

In your face, throwbacks!

I always played with my brother's He-Man stuff and Transformers when I was a kid (and he was kind enough to share-lucky me!) I had no patience for the girl's toys, except for the My Little Ponies. Those I custom painted into BATTLE BEASTS, mwa ha ha.

Hey, at least a post with an FGM referencemade it to comment 15 before one of the "WHUT ABOUT TEH MENZ!?!?!" types showed up. I call that progress! /sarcasm

Seriously, though, screw hot pink microscopes! I need a royal purple one. With flames.

And coming up next on GeekTV: Pimp my microscope!

Oh, PZ, you're such a tool: "No wonder we have a hard time getting women into science."

The reason why "you" have such a hard time getting women into science is that male scientists have worked very hard to keep women out. I mean, c'mon, male scientists know that women have smaller brains, they're built wrong to work with test tubes and microscopes an' shit, y'know what I'm sayin'? Besides, girl cooties will cause experiments to go wrong -- you can't let them into the labs! It has been scientifically proven many times that women evolved to take care of babies, keep house, and supply emotional and other services to men, especially male scientists -- not to do science themselves. Einstein knew this. James D. Watson knows it.

Seriously, to blame this on religion is utter, dishonest horseshit. Not that religion is blameless, but science is no better, because human beings created both of them. That you're surprised by the Discovery Channel's sexism shows that you haven't been paying attention: they have plenty of shows on "sociobiology," which explain to the science-friendly masses that men like Cindy Crawford because she's like, what women evolved to be. But thanks, really, this posting really made my day; once again you've shown how little intelligence is needed to do science.

@56
There's nowt like a man in a kilt... (excuse me while I wipe drool from my keyboard)... however, it is slightly different from a man wearing a full on frock. Which is why I congratulate the writers of Hollyoaks for featuring such a character. I now identify my youth and perhaps poor intelligence by admitting to know of a) the existance of said TV programme, and b) the characters and storylines of said TV programme.

This whole conditioning your kids thing only goes so far anyway. My brother and I played with each other's toy equally (he had his own My Little Pony, it was pink with wings if I recall correctly and I had my own remote controlled car). I was a tomboy up until the age of 12 or 13, then puberty hit and now no one would ever guess that I refused to wear a skirt for the first half of my life!

I'm not that into pink, but so what if I was? So what if I had a pink laptop, or a pink scope? It would not mean I was doing my job any less well. It would not mean my intelligence is any less than somone using a black laptop or a grey scope. There is nothing wrong with stamping some of your own character onto what you do, a distinction needs to be made somewhere.

windy (#66):
We, as a society, resent the implication that we masturbate to our childrens's microscopes. You are a paranoid reacher-around.

As much as I wanted a microscope when I was a kid, if someone had given me a pink one it would have been tossed out of the window, preferably from a moving car. Posted by: Carlie

So you understand why I'm not enamored with my pink, beflowered "Hello, Kitty!" particle accelerator.

So you understand why I'm not enamored with my pink, beflowered "Hello, Kitty!" particle accelerator.

Hey, if you don't want it, I'll have it.

@74: My Little Pony BattleBeasts are a hella awesome idea! Just think about the chaos on the other side:

"Awwww... what cute little ponies with hear---arrrrgh!"
"I can't kill the ponies! They're deadly, but oh so cute!"

re: Pink vs. Blue. It's ironic that long ago (circa WWII?) pink was a "male" color and blue was a "female" color (Virgin Mary is always in blue). As far as the rejection of pink goes, it's more that pink is only associated with females (Pink Ranger, anyone?), while blue can reasonably be applied to all genders. It's superficial, yes, but when the pink microscope also sucks, it's understandable why people associate pink with a lower status.

Well, now, if the pink has Hello Kitty on it, that works. The presence of the Hello Kitty icon negates the pink background in much the same way as a combination of matter and antimatter. Wait, that could really mess up the experimental results on a particle accelerator, though...

Actually, it's interesting to note that fads in color choice on scientific equipment do exist and have changed through the years. In the labs I've worked in, the 50s-era equipment was sky blue, the 60s-era equipment was avocado green, the 70s vintage was a reddish terra cotta, the 80s had cream and tan, and then the 90s was steel gray and black.

I showed this to a few guys I'm close with and their reactions were:

"at least they made a microscope for girls"
"well, the blue one is more expensive"

*sigh*

"Is this really a science blog or an atheist blog. Because I could care less about the social relativity of Christianity, I would rather discuss it's science, if it is to be discussed at all, PZ."

"All you need to learn is that it's not your fucking blog, it's PZ's, and he can write about whatever the hell he wants to."

Hey, cut the Physicist some slack. S/he did say that s/he _could_ care less about the social relativity of Christianity, so apparently s/he cares a little.

Oops. Looks like I confused fond hopes with reality. So klein is an MD troll. It happens, psychiatrists can be crazy too. I've heard that mental illness among psychiatrists is common. Many people go into the field because they are struggling with and wondering about their own mental health status. Unfortunately, I'm too busy to look for the paper so will report it as a theory.

What he wrote makes no sense whatsoever. For one thing there hasn't been a collapse in male heterosexual identity except in Klein's fantasy world. Boys are still boys, girls are still girls. People still get married and have kids. Just like the last 10,000 years. Duh.

I'd hate to see what his malpractice insurance rates are. And I'd be horrified if anyone actually refers a patient to a wacko troll like that. Malpractice one step removed.

Psychiatric News August 2, 2002
Volume 37 Number 15
© 2002 American Psychiatric Association
p. 8

Psychiatrists Not Immune To Mental Illness--or Stigma
Ken Hausman
Psychiatrists may be more cognizant than most people of the devastating effects of stigmatizing the mentally ill, but that does not prevent them from suffering its consequences when they develop a mental illness.

The stigma attached to mental illness is certainly not an abstract concept to psychiatrists. Their patients deal with it almost every day. But psychiatrists can be startled by how devastating stigma can really be when they are the ones on the receiving end.

I'm a Southwestern grad ('63)- now an atheist (on Mon, Wed, Fri at least). Just thought I'd let folks know that the place used to be pretty sensible, not fundy at all. I transferred there from an independent/rapture/tribulation type seminary (DTS) over in Dallas, and it was like emerging from a cave into fresh air and sunlight. Unlike today, back then at Southwestern they even expected faculty and students to think for themselves!

I've heard that some female gamers, annoyed and/or frustrated that everyone who comes over assumes that it's the boyfriend's console, have resorted to painting their game consoles pink.

I build my own computers; and, while I haven't yet made any pink ones, I do like the idea of maybe building my main house router into a Hello Kitty lunchbox or something.

#83: If it's a "Hello Protist", I'll buy it. Hmm... that could make a great toy line.

#89: There is no way I will ever paint my game machine pink. I'd rather prove my ownership of my game console by decapitating their character in a glorious finishing move.

I showed this to a few guys I'm close with and their reactions were:

"at least they made a microscope for girls"
"well, the blue one is more expensive"

*sigh*

Clearly you're close to the wrong guys.

Now I am having microscope fantasies, where my Leica (okay, *the* Leica) is covered with Marimeko red flowers and has a zebra-print cover. That would be so, so cool. And easy to fabricate. Then we could get a super Ti:Sapphire laser in a beautiful blue casing. With embedded glitter. But then, I've spent fruitless hours trying to outbid punters on a home dissecting 'scope.

Re: colors of lab equipment, Carlie, that is so true. On my bench right now there is a Red Rotor, clearly circa 1975 (and held together internally with rubber bands, but still kicking); a beige hot-box whose font gives away its origin in the mid-to-late '80s; a white '90s centrifuge; and a sleek black '00s microprinting machine with po/mo lettering.

"joyfully submit to their husbands."
Is this a BDSM class???

"joyfully submit to their husbands."
Is this a BDSM class???

Speaking of which...

Yeesh. x.x

Now I am having microscope fantasies, where my Leica (okay, *the* Leica) is covered with Marimeko red flowers and has a zebra-print cover. That would be so, so cool. And easy to fabricate. Then we could get a super Ti:Sapphire laser in a beautiful blue casing.

Good point. If it can be done for laptops and game systems, why not for lab equipment? Of course, a rainbow assortment of Sharpies in the hand of a skillful artist might work as well...

Honestly a christian college doing that no longer surprises me. What really makes me want to shake someone is the Discovery Channel Store, they should know better! I have a few young cousins that I buy presents for and the girl/boy split in toy stores has always grated on me (my parents never made a distinction between boy toys for my brother and girl toys for me, we both got the same toys) I hate to see it in a store that promoted it's educational value as well.

I wouldn't have a problem with the pink microscope if it was identical to the blue one except for color, I understand lots of girls love pink, what makes me angry is that the pink one has less functionality. I don't mind things being made specially for girls or women, I have a lovely set of pliers that are made to fit smaller female hands and they are much easier for me to use than the standard size. However when the functionality is dumbed down it's insulting.

My argument is not about the degree of mutiliation, but the principle i.e. lopping off parts of people's bodies without their permission. It's wrong by any standard. Just don't do that!

Your claim was that it's "a big double standard". Your claim is absurd. People also have lopped off their children's tonsils without the children's permission, but that doesn't make it wrong ... certainly not in the same category of wrong as FGM.

And tm, you should know that it is difficult to get a point across in a short-form medium such as a blog comment, so lay off the insults.

No, not when I think they're deserved.

That's just plain rude.

You're the one who wrote "And yet, I wonder how many of those same readers have inflicted genital mutilation on their own male children?" Seems rather rude to me.

Oops. Looks like I confused fond hopes with reality.

Or dear, it looks like you too have resigned our civilization to the gallows, or some such [asky]rot[h].

Here are some more rockin' female high-school scientists to cheer people up

Speaking of which...

That link leads to Fisting and God's Will. It seems like it must be parody, but I'm not sure ...

I gotta get me some of that "joyfully submitting" type womens they got there. Best I can do is a negotiated cease-fire, and the DMZ is a mine field.

Oops. Looks like I confused fond hopes with reality.

Or dear, it looks like you too have resigned our civilization to the gallows, or some such [asky]rot[h].

Holy shit, did the fact that I was slightly altering a movie quote to make a facetious point about raven's assumption being driven by a misguided faith in humanity really go completely over your head?

Isn't Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary where they recently fired a professor of Hebrew, Sheri Klouda, because she was a woman and women weren't permitted to either teach men theology or teach men who were to become pastors (though it was fine whichever one when they hired her). Apparently this has cause a bit of an uproar within the Southern Baptist community (check out the Southern Baptist blogs).

Always remember that Hitler was elected in an anti-feminist backlash. His motto was that women were fit only for "children, kitchen, and church" -- thus emphasizing his Christian heritage.

I favour the decorate-your-own school of thought--say, glitter pen or phosphorescence on the game console. And my bike socks have a "bad kitty" design - looks like a Hello Kitty face with crossbones underneath; maybe it comes in decals. In researching Squidmas sea-creature ornaments I found that you can get something called clear glitter from craft stores, so that you can decorate your own lab equipment: dip in or paint with thin glue and then throw clear glitter on it.

Oh, great. In 20 years my little monster's probably going to be putting penguin stickers on her welding equipment or something. O.o

Holy shit, did the fact that I was slightly altering a movie quote to make a facetious point about raven's assumption being driven by a misguided faith in humanity really go completely over your head?

Nothing went over my head, certainly not your "Oh, excuse us" jackassery .

That film is from 1951. One of the things I do like to remind my elite northeastern students is that Iowa State was co-educational before their schools were. It may have been home ec, but it was an opportunity for a college degree that began in 1869.

You know, the liberal arts college I went to has been co-ed since its 1866 founding; however since the first class of students wasn't enrolled until 1870, Iowa State beats us by one year there. (1874 graduating class size: 2, one man and one woman)

but lets stick to the topic that PZ raised.

Exactly.

Not another thread on male circumcision. Please.