I've been trying to recollect what horrible thing I said in that interview with that film crew … what juicy, ghastly, evil comment I might have made that will be plucked out and impaled on a stick and waved to the audience to inflame them. It's a waste of time, of course — I tend to be far too mellow in person, despite occasional brief declamations that religion is crap, and they're going to have to strain a bit to find anything sufficiently inciteful.
And then I remembered — the interviewer was mildly obsessed with one thing that he brought up several times. It was a quote from this interview, otherwise most memorable for the way that kook John A. Davison turned the comment thread into a maelstrom of inanity.
How did you get started?
I had this software sitting on the server in my lab, and there was this white, empty text box pleading to be filled. I started putting a few words into it to satisfy it, but it craves more and more, and now if I stop, the screaming begins…the horrible, awful, desperate screaming. The box must never be empty.There’s also a wall that must be painted with the blood of creationists, that must never be allowed to dry…but I’ve said too much, and now I’ve revealed my fondness for nny, and Jhonen Vasquez, and the Jehovah’s Witnesses are never going to ring my doorbell again, are they?
I guess I am just a channel for my brain chemistry and my obsessions.
He asked me what that meant. I told him it was a florid bit of writing, a piece of self-deprecating humor — in the entire interview there I play off my reputation as a ferocious madman.
He wasn't satisfied, it seems, and he came back to it later in the interview and essentially asked if I really did do violence to creationists. It was a strange question then, but now that I have the context it makes perfect sense. At the time I just said, no, it's not literally true, I don't believe in violence of any kind, and I even offered to take him over to the house to inspect the basement walls (Look! No blood! Maybe a little mildew), where I'd probably also be able to find the comic book the reference is from. It's too bad I didn't — it's a rather grim, depressing, and cynical book, and I'd love to see them wave it around in the movie as our substitute for the Bible. I suspect instead we'll just get a brief snippet of something they'll claim is me joking about killing creationists.
They should have focused on this part.
I tend to be uncompromising, unkind, unpitying, opinionated, and dismissive of nonsense. I bite. I make small children cry, but I am kind to squid. When I meet people in person, they tend to tell me I'm calm and mild-mannered and professorial, which infuriates me -- beneath this soft and tweedy exterior lies a howling, fulminating fury. Seriously, if I actually looked like I feel, I'd be 12 feet tall with lasers blasting out of my eyesockets, OK? Don't you people have imaginations any more?
With a little money in the special effects budget, they could have made me fit their image. But then, I also think the last sentence is prescient: they don't have imaginations at all.
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You mean you don't have a wall that must always be covered with the blood of the unrighteous?
PZ, you've gotta acquire one! It's the decorating focus of my entire basement.
Sounds like this movie would be better titled "EXCRETED!"
I didn't know you were a Vasquez fan. Personally, I liked squee best, though his vision of nny in heaven was pretty awesome.
Too bad Invader Zim was a kiddy show instead of on the SciFi channel or something. :)
So will Ben Stein be crying, dressed in nothing but a diaper while you try to fry him with your laser eyes?
Must creationists take everything so damn literally?!
PZ, the Bible...
the link just seems to take me to the Amazon homepage.
I think the moral of this story is to ask for a copy of the footage shot by any film crew who interview you. That way if they do a lousy job of editing, you can point this out later.
That series is several different kinds of awesome.
PZ, can I turn this into a cartoon? In a way it highlights the absurdity- a religious zealot would really do such a thing, while an atheist would find the very idea ridiculous.
Ah, PZed, you're an innocent: a goodnatured man who is fascinated by all the weird stuff nature presents us with when we look up close. I'll bet you were a lot like one of my marine biologist friends, who as a child spent a goodly amount of time turning over beach rocks and seaweed, staring into tide pools and buckets of seawater, instead of learning the devious and ruthless rules of the playground which allow some people to grow up to be politicians and, apparently, creationists.
I'm likely misquoting slightly, but "You never expect the Spanish Inquisition!" - Firesign Theatre
The tactics these people employ when 'interviewing' and when arguing, frequently appear to be a none too modern form of the manner in which the Inquisitors (and the witch hunters) questioned their prisoners: devious and designed to elicit the answers they want, so they can say: "AHA! Just as we thought! You're evil!"
I can't wait to see you in the movie: hope they do a good job on the laser-shooting-eyes effect.
This movie reminds me of an electioneering tactic. They know full well that what they're doing is dishonest. They also know that some people will accept their framing of your quotes without question. This is their coveted demographic. They're truly not interested in converting people to their side, per se, but claiming the credulous middle ground. The swing believers, if you will.
But frankly, I say they can have them. The only people that movie is going to fool are the unthinking simpletons that wouldn't be strong proponents of reason anyway.
Would it be too much to hope that the whole thing will be a big exercise in Cobertian satire?
That is to say, CoLbertian. Which is still pronounced without the "t".
Oh, I don't think blood on the walls is so bad. I like to nail a Christian or two up to a make-shift cross now and then just to blow off a bit of steam. It's not like I eat them or anything.
Well, all the blood-slurpers and painters are failing to live up to their opponents' expectations today. Did you see the headline in the Dallas Morning News? "Intelligent design? Ed board opposed." (I've blogged it already, if anyone's interested.)
See? We can all go back to sleep now . . .
Actually, Monty Python.
I agree - this movie would be better titled 'Excreted'. And now I realize it's also timed to coincide with primary season.
The Firesign Theatre usually have their funny used uncredited (cough MST3K, although fans can't help themselves borrowing a line when something funny needs to be said), so it's only fair they get credited with somebody else's funny every once in a while.
Why would the Intelligent Design crowd feel threatened by your mentioning that you have it out for creationists<\i>? ID is very different from creationism, right? Right?
I've always felt there was a strong case for feeding Christians to lions. Christians fed to lions go to heaven, yay for them. Nonchristians get to enjoy watching the Christians get eaten alive. The lions get fed. Everyone is happy and no more creationists.
bybelknap, FCD (#14): It's so sweet that you are catering to the wants and desires of those poor unfortunate christians!
It also occurs to me that they will put on-screen tidbits from this blog. I remember a few months ago, you had an entry that made me cringe enough to not respond to it; where you included some words about steel-tipped boots with which you intended to kick creationists, and I remembered thinking, "D'oh, I wish he hadn't used that metaphor."
Those are the kinds of things they'll use as footage; so they may even show how kind you appear in the movie, but then show that blog entry on the screen and ask, "Does this sound like a nice guy to you?".
Even though we understand you didn't literally mean it, that is how these film-makers will use it.
(I also remember that blog entry caused a couple "faithful" posters to say goodbye to you right then and there. Not me, of course...)
This movie's going to be such a major cringe-a-thon that "our side" (the vast majority, that is) just might have to rebut it with a movie of our own. It could happen.
Hmm... I really hope they paint you as a sort of wild-eyed and ranting Dr. Frankenstein. The irony would be beautiful. Prometheus Z. Myers Unbound, indeed.
"they don't have imaginations at all."
Um, excuse me? You've gotta have one hell of an imagination to come up with the weird, twisted kind of logic the fundies have. Do you think it's easy trying to get around evidence that shows your beliefs to be full of crap? Oh no PZ, these are some seriously imaginative folk. Not all of them, not the nodding xian masses, but the folk leading them.
And, it's "NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!"
You'd think people would catch on (i guess some do) that the constant blathering and near-psychotic need of the religious types is just a lousy coverup.
Non-believing door-answerer: "Hey, your religion sounds a little kooky. Why did God give that guy boils?"
Missionary: "What? Uh...well, he loved him."
NB DA: "...?"
and Invader Zim may have been a children's show, but that didn't stop me from getting all the DVDs. If you don't believe me...
#24: They get toldthat crap. It's revelatory. Whydyou think their Jeezuz is white?
PZ: I fear this will turn out very badly for all of us. You really played right into them. Their humorlessness and desire for martyrdom/oppression (or at least the bragging rights thereto) is a dangerous combination.
Does anyone else get the notion that Expelled is going to be very easy to shoot down?
It appears to me as though they're going to be portraying all who support evolution as atheists who simply cannot abide Xians, even if they throw in a lame disclaimer or two. They're going to put out their lies about how atheists censor Xians at the same time that a number of churches are acknowledging Darwin Day, and saying that they like Xian dominionism and threats to the 1st Amendment no more than atheists like PZ do.
Frankly, I don't think these IDiots are any more intelligent at propaganda than they are at science. They don't have anything else to do, so they repeat the same bilgewater without gaining a clue, but they can't move on except to the point where they acknowledge that their real goal is to make science accept religion as science, which apparently they do in this movie.
They're going to be slaughtered in the media, I believe. I suspect that this movie is more about fleecing their flock than about trying to convince anyone that the scientists are censorious, not UD and Sternberg (who almost certainly censored the reviewers who'd have shredded Meyer's recycled rot).
Not a lot will change, of course, but, as long as we play our cards right, the movie will provide even more opportunity to see ID naked before the world, lying, censoring, quoting out of context, and without even a fig leaf to cover their dominionist ambitions.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
"You killed my-belief-in-a-poorly-thought-out-bronze-age-just-so-story!"
"HEAD EXPLODEY!"
~ heh.
You know what's weird - yesterday on Ben Stein's blog there was a second entry by someone other that Ben, but now it's gone. It was saying stuff about how happy they were for getting so much attention, with a quote about how its "good to be hated by the right people". And going on to say how we don't know what it's *really* about.
Curious...
Aha! It was cached! From someone calling themselves Deacon Blue
Before I thank all of you movie-going readers and posters: the thoughtful, the mortal, the Supreme Beings With Bees-in-Their-Mouths apparently among us, those with intelligence as well as those with designs... it is only fitting that we invite the late, great Johnny Cash to weigh in on the merits of free speech, science and the genius that is freedom of inquiry, in the face of tyranny.
"It's good to be hated by the right people."
-- Attributed to Johnny Cash
Indeed. We could, I'll wager - agree that that is perhaps the only statement that all who have visited these pages today might collectively agree upon. But please - let's have no hatreds here. Life is too long.
Thank-you all, for sharing with us. We are overwhelmed. We had no idea...
This film - it is going to surprise you, one and all. It's not what you think it is. No one has seen it yet.
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."
- Marcus Aurelius
And if we re-read Ben Stein's words here again and again (as I have)...we may still not quite comprehend the full implications of his thoughts. But keep trying, if you misunderstood them...it's worth it.
I do not know Mr. Stein...but I can tell you this: the man is comitted to freedom.
Geez, PZ, quit spoiling the movie. Some of us want to watch it, you know.
Just not me.
The above was supposed to be in quotes - sorry!
I hate to be pedantic, but I believe there is a loose quote tag at the end.
On a related note to the OP, I highly anticipate a blockbuster flop for their movie.
Thanks for setting me straight on the Monty Python quote, above. (I do love Firesign Theatre, though.)
And, searching for 'Deacon Blue' takes you to some very hardcore places - PZed, did they ask you to take yer clothes off, by any chance?
Why do all you evilutionists have violent, blood-soaked fantasies of killing all your enemies?
On an unrelated tangent, does anybody want to come to a rapture party I'm throwing next week? We're having a reenactment of the first crusade and cherry jello shots.
I do not know Mr. Stein...but I can tell you this: the man is comitted to freedom.
*Irony meter implosion.*
Ben Stein supports theocracy, not freedom.
Beth, you're a STAR!
I tried to retrieve it via Wayback and GoogleCache, but with no success. It must have only been visible for a few hours.
This could indeed turn out looking pretty bad for our side. I think they may have got a bargain for the $1200 they paid you. I guess the lesson is next time around, spend a bit more time looking into who you are talking to, instead jumping at the publicity. But so it goes.
I hope you'll at least donate your 30 silver coins to NCSE or similar...
-Crow
There's nothing I said that I wouldn't say again, so no, I'm not too worried. They can mangle anything they want, and there's nothing I could do to stop them. I do not intend to muzzle myself in fear of dishonest distortion.
There was that scene with Lindsay Lohan, a python, and a big bucket of cherry pie filling, but they promised they wouldn't roll the cameras during it! They wouldn't lie, would they?
That is an excellent quote, and so appropriately applied to Ben Stein, who has consistently sided with the majority and ended up supporting the insane.
Finally looked at the Expelled website. Didn't fall off my chair or lose my cookies as feared. Also didn't stay too long due to lack of interest.
1. It wasn't much of a website.
2. The movie will be a pack of lies. Surprise. The theme is that Guillermo Gonzales, Richard Sternberg, Michael Behe and two other people I didn't recognize are martyrs to the Xian cause and being persecuted for being Xians. It's nonsense of course. Probably 1/2 of the scientists in this country are self identified as religious adherents of one sort or another. No one asks, no one cares, it is irrelevant. They are being ostracized for being lying, unethical, pseudoscientific crackpots. We ostracize murderers and thieves for similar reasons.
3. The movie will be easy to deconstruct and shoot down as a pack of lies. It isn't even pretending to be more than a creo propaganda film. The cases of Behe, Sternberg, and Gonzalez have nothing to do with a religious adherence and everything to do with being bottom of the barrel incompetent scientists.
4. The movie will probably go straight to Utube. The faithful will cheer the propaganda, the rest of the population won't bother to watch or care.
Myers would have been advised to shoot his interview independently as ammo for a future deconstruction and lie detector in case of quote mining and misrepresentation. Live and learn and probably no big deal. As a pack of lies, the credibility of the film will be marginal anyway.
No doubt they'll portray you as a "militant" atheist. I can't remember if that's a term that you embrace, but I personally don't like it. I'm all for being direct and I agree in spirit with your position on framing, but I really think that the word "militant" should be reserved for people and movements that actually embrace violence.
All of this makes me think of some of my favorite quotes from the movie Serenity:
[the Operative manages to stab Mal with his sword.]
The Operative: Do you know what your sin is, Mal?
Mal: Oh hell, I'm a fan of all seven.
[Mal headbutts the Operative and pulls the sword out.]
Mal: But right now, I'm gonna have to go with wrath.
----
[Mal has just elbowed the Operative in the throat and disabled him through the dislocation of both shoulders.]
Mal: Sorry 'bout the throat. Expect you'd wanna say your famous last words now. Just one trouble.
[Mal shoves the Operative's sword through his straps, pinning the Operative to the railing.]
Mal: I ain't gonna kill you.
[Mal pulls out the signal and preps the console.]
Mal: Hell, I'm gonna grant your greatest wish. I'm gonna show you a world without sin.
I very much worry about those who want to enforce their vision of a world without sin. CNN's special this week, "God's Warriors," painted a pretty good picture of the possibilities.
@Mena: I aim to please, and it's a win-win! I get a bit of relaxation and they get to meet Jesus!
I really wonder about that mysterious "Deacon Blue" post. You don't suppose that the film is ACTUALLY going to come around and support our side, or that it might really be a work of satire or something along those lines?
From what I've seen so far, I'm quite skeptical that this is the case...yet there IS something slightly off about the whole thing, and that "Deacon Blue" bit doesn't help. Perhaps my unwillingness to reread Ben's words, as he suggests, is preventing me from seeing the truth here...but I'll admit that they've peaked my curiosity. Which only means I'll be even more disappointed if it turns out to be a simple, straight-forward bit of Christian martyr complex-derived whinging.
Don't ask for a copy (well, suer ask for one, but...) don't rely on them giving you what you ask for.
A compact digital video camera will set you back $250. Buy one and set it running somewhere off-camera to make you own copy.
PZ, Maybe you should look into suing the producers for defamation of character, much like that author is trying to do with you. :P
@#46
piqued!!!
This movie could be a success among the religious like the S&M bonanza Passion of the Christ.
Although I don't see the theistic public has having the attention span to listen to scientists talk about science and evolution.
Plus, conservatives are never funny. Well, not intentionally.
Has anybody actually checked the "Expelled" blog? It's actually pretty encouraging. I'd say at least 3/4ths of the comments are from rational, sane people who are bashing the movie. The rest of the commenters keep on saying "wow, those evil Darwinists are being pretty defensive!" Ugh.
I don't see how the DI or ID fakers will want to be associated with the movie without it being obvious that their "designer" is god.
But they probably want all the support they can get.
That blog has every kind of creationist under the sun. DaveScot even made an appearance.
Well, it's about all they can say. They can't come up with any real case of censorship, but they can point and yell "Censorship" without ceasing.
After a long wait they went ahead and posted my comments (along with a bunch of others that had stacked up, so I wasn't being singled out) on the censorship of IDists. I pointed to a very recent banishing of "Rocket" from UD, ironically on a thread related to this stupid lying movie. Here's my comment, which will soon be practically lost in the comments:
http://expelledthemovie.com/blog/2007/08/21/bens-blog/#comment-413
I can't complain about the openness on Ben's blog (as opposed to the dishonesty of what he's written), but he certainly appears to turn a blind eye to the ongoing expulsion of virtually all anti-ID criticism at UD.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
PZ, maybe next time something like this happens, have your own camcorder sitting there on a tripod recording the whole thing for your own record. As much as I don't want to pay any money to see this trash, I'm anxious to see what kind of editing they do to your interview.
BobH
Imagine the FX possiblities.
I'll paint ANY wall with the blood of creationists for only $49.95! You heard me, only $49.95!
Re MikeM:
I might suggest PZ, Tara, Professor Steve Steve, and the rest of the gangs from Science Blogs and Panda's Thumb would be perfect.
Ben Stein supports theocracy, not freedom.
Err? He holds to a position or two which I disagree with. I reckon he holds several more positions which a majority of the vocal Pharyngulans would disagree with.
What would elevate him to the level of supporting theocracy?
Unless there is something in his life of which I am unware, let's save that term for those who actually advocate for the elimination of the free exercise clause. Do not dilute the term by using it gratuitously.
Strolled around the expelled website a little more. My head started to swell up which is a warning sign of imminent explosion. Can't have that.
I saw the name Caroline Crocker and read up on her malfeasance. What a loon. Spouting decades old, grade school level nonsense.
"Evolution is wrong because no one has ever seen a dog turn into a cat." Stupid, stupid, stupid. Evolution doesn't predict this. It predicts that dogs and cats had a common ancestor about a few tens of millions of years ago. And no, no one has seen that common ancestor turn into dogs and cats. Who in the hell has been watching mammals for 30 million or so years? Last I heard, the average human life span was 77 years in the USA.
Anyone know what happened to Caroline after her contract wasn't renewed for good reasons? I suspect she is poisoning minds somewhere else or has changed careers to something more suited to her talents. Hopefully she does have some other talents. She knows zero about science.
PZ,
It's obvious that you don't watch the right kind of TV. Don't you know that you should always tape (secretly, of course) all of your conversations with other people - especially if they are making a movie?
PZ:
ROTFLOL!!! Oh, my goodness! I would surely pay real money for everybody in my family to see that twice on the big screen! You'd be a bigger anti-hero than Godzilla.
Y'know, this sort of does go along with my suspicion - given the silly short-pants "school uniform" Stein's wearing in the PR photo, which looks suspiciously like that kid's uniform in "Godzilla's Revenge" - that this film might be better than "Borat!"
Did you have to actually wear the costume and stomp around on a miniature set, or did they just wire you up against a bluescreen for computerization?
I did the same thing. I was amazed that anyone teaching college level biology would make such obviously ridiculous statements to their students. She's either outright lying when she says there really isn't evidence of evolution or she is incompetent. I'm leaning toward incompetent. Either way she doesn't belong teaching biology.
I agree with many of the other posters. This film sounds as if it will languish and die rather quickly. It seems to basically be made for the same group of people who visit the Creation Museum. Most of America will never see it
PZ, you read Vasquez! I didn't think you could get any cooler, but I stand corrected.
Too right you shouldn't censor yourself, because unscrupulous people will quote mine you regardless of what you say.
And don't worry if the fundies says your going to hell, I hear they make a tasty bagel.
Invader Zim was on Nickelodeon, but that doesn't mean it didn't have edge. Need I direct you to the Christmas episode where Zim pretends to be Santa and exploits Earthanoids love of Christmas to become a despotic overlord.
Will being teleported to our doom be fun and Christmas-y?
Yes! Yes, of course it will, you hideous fool.
What would elevate him to the level of supporting theocracy?
He supports Disco (or vise versa)... have you read the Wedge document? The raisin d'uh etre of Disco? It's all about theocracy.
The entire Christmas rally scene is a take-off Battle Cry, right down to the two-armed salutes and the opening volley of gunfire.
PZ Myers:
Or so they will quote you.
It is all about *freedom* folks! That is what the movie is about.
People who believe in intelligent design should have the freedom to get paid for having a job in a university while doing no research in intelligent design.
That way their afternoons are free for them to do whatever they want.
All they are asking for is freedom - Monday free, Tuesday free, Wednesday free, which leaves Thursday and Friday free to point out how much research they would be doing on Mondays, Tuesdays and Wednesdays , if they were not being suppressed by the Big Science Academy.
Apparently, PZ was heroically "confronted", but not manipulated....
Unlike some other documentary films, Expelled doesn't just talk to people representing one side of the story. The film confronts scientists such as Richard Dawkins, author of The God Delusion, influential biologist and atheist blogger PZ Myers and Eugenie Scott, head of the National Center for Science Education. The creators of Expelled crossed the globe over a two-year period, interviewing scores of scientists, doctors, philosophers and public leaders. The result is a startling revelation that freedom of thought and freedom of inquiry have been expelled from publicly-funded high schools, universities and research institutions.
The incredible thing about Expelled is that we don't resort to manipulating our interviews for the purpose of achieving the 'shock effect,' something that has become common in documentary film these days," said Walt Ruloff, co-founder of Premise Media and co-Executive Producer.
"People will be stunned to actually find out what elitist scientists proclaim, which is that a large majority of Americans are simpletons who believe in a fairy tale. Premise Media took on this difficult mission because we believe the greatest asset of humanity is our freedom to explore and discover truth.
( from http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/… )
Ben Stein lists all the advances that FREEDOM has granted science. He lists antibiotics as one example. I almost spit up my morning coffee! Does Mr. Stein have any conception of why we need development of antibiotics? Because they speciate,resulting in a resistance to a particular bacteria killer! Another example of a person in with expertise in one field waking up one morning....."I'm a smart guy. That Darwin was wrong. I can see it with my own eyes." Sheesh.
P.C.Chapman
"EXCRETED"? Or maybe BAHLEETED!
Their focus doesn't surprise me much. Their persecution complex has seized on your comments before, as others have pointed out, with the steel-toed boots and such. They desperately NEED to believe that you actually intend violence and active suppression, so they're doing their utmost to put those words in your mouth. You'll be the movie's poster child Elite Evilutionist, quoted onscreen as denying your violent, suppressive tendencies (feebly, thanks to creative editing) and contradicted by big scary quotes from the site thrown up after your clip: "But that doesn't match Myers' regular comments on his own website. In this quote and countless others, he openly encourages his followers to commit violence against supporters of ID..."
Tools. Any takedown we produce after-the-fact isn't going to get as much attention (unless we manage to pull off something truly extraordinary, and I'm beginning to think we ought to try), but at least we have the material to expose the lies with crystal clarity.