The pop culture hysteria is getting ridiculous. The movie 300, based on a graphic novel treatment of the sacrifice of the Spartans in the battle of Thermopylae, has become a political palimpsest with everyone trying to find support for their agenda in it—but get serious, it's a comic book on the big screen. Similarly, a few have tried to see omens in the death of comic book hero Captain America recently. Again, it's a comic book — superheroes die all the time, and they bounce back like Jesus or get replaced by someone else willing to look ridiculous in public wearing garish Spandex. For the most obvious example of a hyperbolic search for Meaning and Significance in the death of fictitious characters, though, we have to turn to the religious — they've got so much practice at it, after all. Ladies and gentlemen, behold Rabbi Marc Gellman, whose thesis is that the Spartans and Captain America died for God.
Neither Leonides nor Captain America were religious, but both of them stood for that part of the religious world that believes in a God who fights for freedom. They both stood for the proposition that freedom is the foundation of all meaningful life. Religiously speaking, this is the belief that God gave freedom to all people made in His image, and that those who oppose freedom must be prepared to fight God.
Yeah, yeah, the whole essay goes on in that vein. He admits right out front that there's nothing particularly religious about either story — perhaps the glorification of the butchery of weird-looking foreigners in 300 fooled him by looking biblical? — but that's not going to stop him from turning the events into religious allegories.
Leonides and Captain America were heroes not because they entered the field of battle with a shield of Vibranium or were in possession of abs of steel, but because they entered battle with a spiritually authentic idea: that God is free and we are made in God's image to be free as well. We were not placed on planet earth to avoid death. We were placed here so that we could avoid surrendering our God-given freedom to tyrants.
Remember Cap.
Remember Thermopylae.
It's been a while since I read Captain America (he was one of my favorites in the late 60s/early 70s, though), but I seriously do not remember him ever announcing that he was fighting the Red Skull because God is free. If the Spartans and Thespians at Thermopylae died for any gods, they were members of a pagan pantheon that the monotheists despised and stomped out of existence. Shall we restore the worship of Zeus and Ares to the ranks of "spiritually authentic ideas"? They certainly are as authentic as his belief in Jehovah, or the Christian Jesus-idolatry.
Remember your comic books! The willing suspension of disbelief for ridiculous wish-fulfillment fantasies is exactly the training you need to be a member in good standing at your local church or synagogue. They'll also help you see Muslims as the personification of absolute evil.
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And of course the great irony of the Spartans was that when they spoke of freedom they really were not thinking in the same terms we do. Recall that Sparta was a totalitarian military state in which the "free" Spartans maintained their way of life through the enslavement of many times their number of helots. In essence, the Spartans who stood against the Persians represented by far the most repressive and the least "free" of virtually any of the Greek states. That any one should seize on the Spartans as exemplars of freedom or as defenders of "God" is hilarious in dark, depressing, "I can't believe how stupid these idiots are" kinda way.
And of course Captain America, great hero that he may have been, was the product of massive drug experimentation. He was on steroids before steroids were cool...
*Sigh* Comic books were a huge part of my childhood, why can't they just be appreciated for what they are - life was simpler back then:)
In the Battle Pope & Jeebus image, is Jeebus diggin' for some more of The Host?
The irony is, if there was any message to be taken away from CA's death, Civil War storyline in Marvel Comics for more deets."
Okay. I keep up with comic books.... shoot me.
The irony is, if there was any message to be taken away from CA's death, it was the "death" of the spirit of America with the imposition of draconian, non-democratic laws in response to a tragic, terrorist sponsored event that shook the nation to its very core.
Check out this entry for the Civil War storyline in Marvel Comics for more deets.
Okay. I keep up with comic books.... shoot me.
(*but I obviously can't use the preview function to prevent snafus like the previous entry....*)
I've had mixed feelings about this movie ever since I heard they were making it.
Nine years ago, when the comics were first coming out, I was really excited! Frank Miller finally stepping away from his Sin City works to do something different...some of his best artwork in years...and the entire series using exclusively two-page layouts, something compositionally new and challenging...plus, Lynn Varley outdoing herself with achingly beautiful color work.
Now, years later, a movie about butch white Greeks fighting to the death against Persian hordes in defense of Democracy, even to the point of uttering phrase "freedom isn't free," (the line was not in the comic) well, feels a little different.
All this is tangential to my original intent in commenting. They removed one of my favorite lines from the comic in the movie, a line that would have made it a tiny bit more hostile to such religious co-option, although I'm sure they could find some way to gloss over it. When Leonidas has to consult the priests, seeking permission to go to war, he must start with an offering of gold..the priests begin with "First things first..one mustn't insult the gods." As he does this, he thinks "First things first. There's never been a holy man who lacked the love for gold."
I'm on a comics scholar's listserv and got into a big donnybrook over 300. Apparently even among librarians and comic book scholars it's not kosher to just appreciate 300 for the story it presents, we have to throw in meaning. I'm so sick of art fraught with up to the minute socipolitical meaning. Can't it just be an action movie? Yes, it can, and is.
"The willing suspension of disbelief for ridiculous wish-fulfillment fantasies is exactly the training you need to be a member in good standing at your local church or synagogue. They'll also help you see Muslims as the personification of absolute evil."
Ridiculous they are, but in the last 25 years, comic books have tended to be very left wing or at least anti-establishment when they address politics at all. Captain America (see conservative Michael Medved's critique of recent themes in the franchise), Alan Moore's works, Mark Millar's Red Son re-imagining of Superman, Marshall Law, the Uncle Sam graphic novel. Even Frank Miller skewered the Bush administration in The Dark Knight Strikes Back. The geopolitical background of the Spawn movie seemed to be inspired by Noam Chomsky or Ramsey Clark. (Aside: The movie is underrated in terms of entertainment value.) If anything in comic books is the personification of absolute evil, it's usually a shadowy corporation; Lex Luther was long ago reconceptualized as a businessman rather than a mad scientist.
Against the grain, Frank Miller is doing a 'Holy Terror, Batman!' graphic novel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22Holy_Terror,_Batman!%22
The man doesn't know what he's talking about!
Captain America's shield is an alloy of vibranium and steel! (I used to think it was a mixture of vibranium and adamantium - but Kurt Busiek set me straight). After all, if vibranium absorbs all vibrations (its an extra-terrestial metal harvested from a meteor that landed in the African nation of Wakanda - you could look it up), then Cap's shield would be good for absorbing punishing shock waves - but wouldn't ricochet whenever he threw it.
As to comics and religion - there's an interesting historical essay - lengthened into a book that I haven't read yet - about the Jewish roots of many of the Golden Age comic book creators. It discusses how aspects of the Jewish experience in NYC in the 1930's - 1940's informed many of the aspects of their superhero creations. The book is called: Up, Up and Oy Vey! and is written by a Rabbi who's name esacpes me now. I hope its not this guy you cite, PZ, as he sounds like he's just full of it.
There IS one sense where religion and superheroes intersect. That is, they both are natural venues for a discussion of ethics. What do you owe your fellow man?, how should you treat strangers?, when are you ever off duty?, these are questions that are legitimate (or at least they can be) to both superhero stories and religious discussions. The blogger, Jim Henley, has argued persuasively that superhero comics can be viewed as a "Literature of Ethics". As for providing a mechanistic explanation for how the natural world works, not so much for either of them.
Of course, it sounds like the guy you quote is just trying to jam recent comic book storylines into a familiar religious narative. Shocking, I know. And he doesn't even have the distinction of being our one millionth customer who's tried that!
You talk as though a comic is somehow unable to have a political or social message, or an event in a comic to be intended to reflect on current events. In this I think you are doing many creators and readers a disservice.
Correction: The title of Frank Miller's '01-02 limited series is 'Batman: The Dark Knight Strikes Again.'
I've got to hire a fact checker.
I guess when you're religious it's really easy to believe really stupid things, like comic books being about God.
Another irony is that the movie 300 doesn't make any sort of suggestion that "those who oppose freedom must be prepared to fight God." It does the opposite. The people fighting for freedom are fighting against an enemy that describes himself as a god. (Not to mention that all of the religious figures in the movie are portrayed as corrupt freaks.)
Michael Chabon's excellent novel The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and Clay offers a wonderful, moving treatment of this same theme. Highly recommended.
You also can't escape the Jewish heritage of comic books in Chabon's novel, The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier & Clay. But even in the old comics, religion was rarely even mentioned -- a bigger concern was, as you say, ethics and the obligations of heroism (or, perhaps more often, pure escapism and wish fulfillment — what skinny little nerd wouldn't want to get that injection of super drugs that turn him into muscle-bound hero fighting for truth, justice, and the American way?)
We need to give him credit for boldly demonstrating his religious stupidity, his cultural stupidity and his right-wing stupidity in one concise little package.
Remember Gellman!
Remember the Dumbshit!
Hey, wait a second, PZ. I thought you said earlier that "At least the kitsch is generating interesting reactions."
Now, a theistic interpretation may lack literary merit, but at least it's interesting (and hilariously inept) in its own kitschy way.
(Back to my English teaching / subtext / double entendre / symbolism hole.)
I can see why the story of a bunch of fanatics slaughtering a racially-diverse mob led by some kind of crypto-transexual is appealing to conservatives, but I'm not sure how that ends up being about the "God of freedom" per se.
I find it even more hilarious that the full article turns 300 into a story about the War on Terror/Iraq. Giant superpower fighting a bunch of martyrs? Which one really symbolizes America here?
It's even worse when you bring historical Thermopylae into it, as it's said that the Persian War happened as a punitive expedition to punish the Athenians for their part in burning down Sardis during the Ionian Revolt, or because Xerxes felt driven to live up to his father's legacy.
Jeez.
I myself find amusing the contention that neither CA nor Leonidas were religious.
I suspect that Leonidas was as religious as any fundy today. He just had a different religion.
And yeah, Spartans spouting off about freedom is one of the silliest misrepresentations I've heard of. They were a slave based culture. Admission into adulthood involved murdering a slave. Unfit babies were exposed.
They were there because they loved a good fight. It was what Spartans did.
Steve "They should have done the Alamo instead." James
PZ said:
"...pure escapism and wish fulfillment -- what skinny little nerd wouldn't want to get that injection of super drugs that turn him into muscle-bound hero fighting for truth, justice, and the American way?)"
I don't know about you - but that was one of the main reasons I went into Science in the first place. Getting first crack at the latest Super Soldier drugs! The latest batch was especially tasty!
[And those fools called me Mad! Maaaaaad!]
More seriously (though what can be more serious than super soldier serum?) - Henley wasn't saying (nor was I) that comics deal only with ethical considerations - of course, escapist fiction and power fantasies are major themes - but that they also, by their very nature can address ethical questions in a natural way.
Chabon's book was, if I'm not wrong, an inspiration for some of these recent non-fiction historical treatments of the Jewish, NYC roots of comic books. See also: Men of Tomorrow by Gerard Jones. Interestingly, I've heard Chabon at a signing say (though it might have been in an interview) that he didn't see Kavilier and Clay as a "comic book" novel, so much as a novel of life in NYC in the 1930's through the 1950's. Which was his father's mileau that he wanted to explore - and he used comic books as the device to frame his story.
One of the best recent graphic novels about Freedom was "Pride of Baghdad." Anyone else here like it? The main characters were lions and other animals escaping from the Baghdad Zoo... Neither humans nor gods come off looking very noble.
What would happen to a high school student who appeared beside a Greek-American parade with a sign reading: "Bong Hits 4 Leonidas"?
is it just me, or did they get rid of the comments section about his article?
I thought the theme of the Bible was that we were placed on earth so that we could learn to willingly surrender our God-given freedom back to God, and become His eternally humble and eager slaves. My recollection is that references to tyrants and those who abuse you tended to be along the lines of "lucky you, you get to practice meekness and get good at it for your real Master later."
Since I know next to nothing about comics, I'm going to turn this around a little bit.
What is a rabbi, of all people, doing lecturing us about how "God gave freedom to all people"?! Does he not consider himself to be subject to (a whopping) six hundred and thirteen commandments, all of which are demanded by God? It doesn't sound like "freedom" in any meaningful sense, if you're convinced that because you had the (mis?)fortune of being born to certain parents, you're religiously obligated to follow a byzantine code of laws and ethics that makes incredible demands of you, legislating what you wear, what you eat, what you may and may not do one day per week, and so on. (Interestingly, he's a Reform rabbi [*blink*], which means his interpretation of the above is likely very different to that of a Conservative or Orthodox rabbi. This is me being startled that there are right-wing Reform rabbis.)
That's not freedom; it's indentured servitude to an idea, no less. Do you suppose right-wingers of that stripe always mean "slavery" when they say "freedom"?
Is this referring to the "Golem" theory of superheroes, specifically Superman? In any case, nice catch, that is pointing more directly to the superstition roots of both such comics and religion.
This seems to have been the original concept of freedom, freedom for the privileged.
Spartan society has some analogues to the Vikings, where "trälar" (thralls) were made by enslavement during war, or voluntarily during famines. (Btw, the later way was the first to be forbidden. Seems nobody liked the idea of risking to become one among peers.) Slave trade was one of the vikings largest income sources.
Never the less, it seems such societies were organized around an increasingly constrained freedom with the slaves at the bottom. Interestingly, trading with serfs was forbidden in England already 1102 (thralldom was forbidden in Sweden 1337) and the worst trade in humans seems to have been nearly gone in Europe by the 15th century. (It was trading with Africa that is said to have reintroduced it.)
So while it was quite a while before democracy was introduced and villeinage disappeared (it wasn't until 1943 (!) that "torpare" in Sweden was forbidden to pay with working for their landlord) some of the actions that lead to the modern concept of freedom for all seems to have started with removing the worst offenses.
(I have cribbed this from sources all over the web, not being conversant with history. It was too interesting a subject not to try seeing the overall picture. As always, I appreciate any corrections.)
I'm sure this was how the Spartan's thought of it, freedom with responsibilities. In that regards it is like freedom under democracy, except that we are all equally constrained.
Today many think like Spartans towards animals in their care. I hear Britain is far ahead there too. (Meanwhile, at least we have "The Ballad of Lost C'mell".)
There's a reason the adjective 'rabbinical' when applied to reasoning is a derogative term.
I just don't get the "it's only a comic book" argument. Too many Americans have comic-book ways of understanding reality for me to believe that "300" is politically innocuous. At the actual level that a lot of the population thinks, it's a pretty good medium for persuading them that going to war with Persia (Iran) is a good idea. Which happens to be on today's agenda, since the British and the Iranians just had a pretty serious confrontation just now.
Early superhero comics had a sort of anti-Nazi or anti-Communist backstory or mood, and that's cool. But the anti-Persian angle isn't exactly subtle in this one.
Torbjörn Larsson said: "As to comics and religion - there's an interesting historical essay - lengthened into a book that I haven't read yet - about the Jewish roots of many of the Golden Age comic book creators.
Is this referring to the "Golem" theory of superheroes, specifically Superman? In any case, nice catch, that is pointing more directly to the superstition roots of both such comics and religion. "
It is indeed refering in part to 'Golom' myths. In addition, there is the aspect of Superman's origin - in a sense, the ultimate immigrant experience (luckily the Daily Planet (originally the Daily Star) had a liberal guest worker program and didn't worry about proper documentation). Superman comes to America, leaving his home behind, to which he can never return. He must make his way in this new world, fitting in to a new culture. He has mad crazy skills, fortunately, that ease the transition. And the whole "El" surname thing from Krypton.
By the way - Seigel and Shuster's model for the great metropolitan city Metropolis? Cleveland! Though the artist, Joe Shuster, used his home twon of Toronto as the artistic model form many of the buildings and cityscapes of early Metropolis.
Excelsior!
Great covers:
Captain America vs Hitler
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Captainamerica1.jpg
Captain America, Commie Smasher
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:CaptainAmerica%28Atlas%2978.jpg
Latuff's vile use of Captain America (though in a sick way it is a tribute to the character's iconic status)
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2002/09/40976.html
Dr. Kakalios:
Why do you need super soldier serum? Didn't you already explain that physicists really are as strong as portrayed by Ray Palmer?
There has been a recent influx in the last decade or so, of religious icons & themes in comic books.
An angel (Zauriel) was brought into the JLA - in American Dreams, Superman wrestled w/an archangel. Swamp Thing incorporates a great deal of religious imagery & concepts. There was a graphic novel that retrofitted Revelation to the JLA. Gaiman mixes in Miltonian themes w/pantheism & gnosticism. Hellblazer, Carey's Lucifer series. Note that most of these are DC/Vertigo. Ennis' 'the Preacher' series.
There's always been a mix 'n match in comics, even in Marvel. Thanos became 'gawd' in the Infinity Gauntlet (though that was more along the lines of quantum fuzziness).
There's even a page at adherents.com that discusses the various denominations of superheroes (there's a few atheists there - Wolverine among them). http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/comic_book_religion.html
John:
Too many Americans have comic-book ways of understanding reality
That's putting it mildly.
Actually, it was precisely because of my love of comic books that I began seeing religion for the fiction it was. Resurrections and magical breastplates and books made of gold (yeah, I grew up Not-Quite-Mormon) are all well and good for comic book plots, but as reality they don't quite jive. Being a fan of comics and cartoons left me with a pretty fine-tuned bullshit detector.
It is excellent to see that Dr. Kakalios reads this site. I got to spend some time with him when he spoke at Augustana College last year and talked his ears off whenever I got the chance. It's as if my two nerd-worlds (science and comics) collided, and Dr. Kakalios was the perfect product of that annihilation. I hope you're doing well, Professor, and I hope you're getting some mileage out of that bright yellow t-shirt :).
I had thought that the shield was a vibranium-adamantium alloy, but that turns out to be in error (curse you, Official Handbook to the Marvel Universe!). Adding to what the good professor already said, it's made from a combination of vibranium and a steel alloy (it's speculated that the other metal in the alloy was titanium, but this isn't confirmed), which bonded together thanks to an unknown catalyst. The precise reaction remains unknown because it occurred while the scientist was asleep. He really should have remembered that you shouldn't perform metallurgy unless you've had a full night's sleep.
So, not to disparage my beloved Augustana physics department, but why is it exactly that Minnesota gets all the really cool science professors?
"Just a comic book"...
hurm.
hehe, I saw the Battle Pope image and thought I was on the wrong blog.
BennyP:
That's, quite simply, a beautiful response. I thought about taking offense to the "just a comic book" stuff going around here, but it occurred to me that most of the folks here would be just as likely to say "just a book," and so I can't get too upset.
That being said, comics do have literary value, and I find a heck of a lot more depth in the average Neil Gaiman story than in Oliver Twist or, you know, The Bible.
CJColucci asks:
"Dr. Kakalios:
Why do you need super soldier serum? Didn't you already explain that physicists really are as strong as portrayed by Ray Palmer?"
Good question! The super soldier serum is for the buff bod - check out Steve Rogers before and after treatment. I swear - it grows hair faster than Rogaine!
The super-strength - oh, that just comes naturally with an advance degree in physics.
Tom Foss:
I have indeed been getting much use from my sylin' yellow Augustana shirt with the clever Entropy - Superman 'S' logo.
And regarding Cap's shield - I do some of my best work in the lab sound asleep!
And don't mess with BennyP! The last comic book character who used "hurm" as an exclamation was Rorschach from Watchmen. Which looks like it will be Zach Snyder's next film project, now that he made a ton of dough with "300".
Krystalline Apostate - There have been many "religious" or mystical characters in comic books - see Jerry Siegels effort to trap lightning in a bottle a second time with the Spectre, then there's Dr. Fate , Dr. Strange, Dr. Druid - the whole medical profession runs on magic! Hellblazer and Lucifer use these characters as players in intyeresting soap operas, and make excellent use of aspects of the mythology (Lilith as Adam's first wife) that modern bible thumpers tend to ignore.
King Leonidas was there for his love of Greece (and probably the love of a good fight). The reason the other 299 were there was because they were the members of his royal guard and didn't have much choice. The other Spartans were back in Sparta celebrating a Spartan religious holiday and the oracle wouldn't allow them to leave. If it were not for religion the full force of Sparta (and the rest of the Greeks who might have been more eager to sign up knowing the Spartans were there) may have been able to crush the Persians at Thermopylae.
You get super-strength with an advanced degree in physics? In biology, all we get is x-ray and heat vision, astonishing sexual potency, and the ability to spit acid.
Wow, with all those powers biology gets, it's amazing anyone chooses physics.
What does chemistry give?
Dr. Kakalios:
That's great to hear, and I'll try not to toot my own horn too much over that design.
Well, sure, in the Physics lab. But we've got it easy. It's only metallurgists and the occasional chemist who have to worry about staying awake.
Oh, absolutely. Which is why I thought it was so perfect as a commentary.
Dr. Myers:
In other words, Physicists get to be DC heroes, and Biologists get to be Marvel ones.
And come on, everyone can spit acid. The pH range of saliva tends toward acidic. It'd be really amazing if you could spit extremely basic saliva. Maybe it wouldn't be as exciting to watch, but there'd be some neat effects next time you ate an orange.
Some other superheroes remember Captain America
Chemistry's superpower is to smell really, really bad.
PZ:
"You get super-strength with an advanced degree in physics? In biology, all we get is x-ray and heat vision, astonishing sexual potency, and the ability to spit acid."
Um - the spitting acid is a trait for faculty in general - if you've ever served on the university senate (main perk: cute togas!) you'd see that.
Must resist urge to make 2nd grade jokes about sexual potency....
Jim (that's not what she said! Arggh - couldn't resist) Kakalios
Ever since reading Stephen R. Donaldson's The Gap Into Foo
series, 'Thermopylae', has not meant 'the Spartans at Thermopylae',
but Captain Angus Thermopylae, Donaldson's foul and despicable
anti-hero.
As long as we're talking about offing comic-book characters in the name of all that's good and decent, somebody should bring up the example of God in the Preacher series.
And today, just now, the Wikipedia article on those comics is the first Google hit for the word preacher. Sometimes I love my society.
Thank you Interrobang. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength.
Jim - Hey, you're talkin' to an old Marvel man here. I used to dig Dr. Strange - Marvel did a few things w/a lotta occultic characters. Ghost Rider, Mephistopheles, Pandemonium, Chthon (no relation to our favorite R'lyeh inhabitant). Hercules, Thor, the list it do go on.
& Superman rose from the dead. How parallel is that?
Krystalline Apostate said:
"& Superman rose from the dead. How parallel is that?"
And I get to leave at the same point as I came in. Namely, the question of the role of Jewish culture in early comic books, particularly Superman.
Cheers everyone. Off to watch Casino Royale.
Now let's see. Vesper nicely chilled? Check. Aston Martin put away in the garage? Check. Laser beam slowly moving between my legs to bisect me? Chec - Hey, wait a minute! Why did I ever have that thing installed in the first place?
Chemistry gives the power to become a Nazi made of bees.
This kind of rubbish is nothing new, though; remember all the furore over Steven Spielberg's ET? All sorts of religious nuts were claiming it was a Christ parable, with ET even dying and being resurrected. And that was in 1982. These fools will find their religious symbolism wherever they look.
Of course, in the Marvel continuity, the Greek and Norse gods are basically shapeshifting aliens who got caught up in human expectations, not to be confused with the immortal Eternals who are a human variant. But there are a whole range of godlike beings above those, from the Stranger and his ilk, through Galactus and the Celestials, on up to "Eternity" (the sentient life-force of the universe) and the Beyonder.
Astronomy will give you flight even into space, invisibilty, intangibility, and the power to cover up UFO crashes, while faking moon landings!
PS- Apparently at some point Marvel decided to retcon the the Super Solder Serum into a retrovirus, instead of a drug.
Just saw the movie- I have to say my impression of it was formed in the
opening scene of the Persian messengers approaching Sparta. The shot
of the riders approaching the city looked exactly like a scene from an
anime film. The battle scenes in the movie reinforced the impression,
right down to the upward looking shots of Spartans leaping down
on their enemies from above.
Other anime highlights (no spoilers)
-Windswept heroes standing in brightly illuminated fields with
airborne flowers? rushing past them in the breeze.
-Over-the-top costumed villians ( including "Immortal"/stormtrooper
types complete with full asian-ish facemasks and Vader-like
breathing..had to laugh at this...), fantastic battle-beasts
(beasts of mass destruction????) Although I thought the
Big Bad Guy was not equipped with a sword twice his height-
a *must* for any anime bad guy....
-Slow/fast/slow combat scenes..all that was missing was the streaks
of light going in the opposite direction as weapons and bodies
flew through the air...
The film is very good at being what it is- a live motion
version of an anime film. Reality, "Deeper Significance"(tm)
and this movie are strangers to each other.
If you like demolition derbies or don't mind turning off major
portions of your brain for 120 minutes you can have a good time.
(Went to see "The Lives of Others" after..my idea of a
*real* movie for adults....)
Dr. Myers,
What about Vice President Gore reference to 300 and saving of
western culture during his testimony to the congress. If spartans
saved western culture, than what did the christians do during
the dark ages to the greek knowledge. Ironic that the muslims saved
most of the greek knowledge.
Hmph - my 17th birthday present was a copy of "The Force of Star Wars." I think it may have been published by Zondervan. Any guesses what the "force" was?
I think that Gandalf/Bombadil/Aragon have all been Christ-figures to those preaching to the geeks.
Early superhero comics had a sort of anti-Nazi or anti-Communist backstory or mood, and that's cool. But the anti-Persian angle isn't exactly subtle in this one.
You're assuming the average American voter can make any connection between Persia and Iran...
In one sense, the Spartans actually _were_ freer than the rest of the Greeks: Spartan women weren't nearly as oppressed as other Greek women were. They weren't quite treated as equals, but it was a lot better to be a (free) woman in Sparta than it was anywhere else in the ancient world.
Head on over to Old Is the New New for more on the historical context of Golden Age comics heroes, and stay for the robots and doughnuts!
JZ, one quibble with this statement: "The willing suspension of disbelief for ridiculous wish-fulfillment fantasies is exactly the training you need to be a member in good standing at your local church or synagogue. They'll also help you see Muslims as the personification of absolute evil."
While many a rabbi is going to give a sermon on Israel/Palestine that most posters on this blog are going to disagree with, few or none are going to inveigh against Islam or Muslims as evil as a whole. Muslims are followers of the Noahide Laws and as such are have a place in the world to come. A sermon condemning Islam as the "personification of absolute evil" would both be not in keeping with Jewish teaching, and I suspect would get a rabbi fired by most congregations.
I'm not religious (well, atheist, really), just happen to know this and prefer accuracy.
I agree that the linked-to piece is silly, and that the idea of using the Spartans as examplars of freedom peculiar at best.
Let me amend, that to say that I'd HOPE that a sermon like that would get a rabbi fired by most congregations. Given the general rightward trend of everything in the U.S. over the last six years (with perhaps a slight beginiung of a pendulum swing last year), who knows.
Given the general rightward trend of everything in the U.S. over the last six years (with perhaps a slight beginiung of a pendulum swing last year), who knows.
You are in good company, my friend. Bill Barnwell, who holds both a Master of Ministry degree and a Master of Arts in Theological Studies degree from Bethel College in Mishawaka, agrees with you:
"It would be significant indeed if Biblical scholars, pastors and laymen finally and at long last rescued the doctrine of eschatology from the doom and destruction crowd of militaristic pretribulationists."
Hey, a boy can dream can't he? Then so can a eschatological anti militaristic pretribulationist Master of Ministry and Master of Arts in Theological Studies dream too!!
Frankly, I think we'd all, as a species, would be better off without religion, but if we're going to have religion I'd rather have the tolerant post-Enlightenment variety, and not the scary counterenlightenment variety.
Too many Americans have comic-book ways of understanding reality
Which would be just fine, if the comic books in question were, oh, say, Joe Sacco's Palestine, Art Spiegelman's In the Shadow of No Towers and Marjane Satrapi's Persepolis. It's all about making sure you read the righ comic books...
This is just the two cents of a long-time comics fan: you can make connections between Cap, the comics tradition and these movies based on Miller's graphic novels, but what really leaps out at me when I compare them are the differences.
Miller is technically skilled and working very much in the tradition of the comics medium. 'Sin City' is to my mind very much influenced by Alex Toth, Gil Kane and (did you know he started in comics?) Mickey Spillane. '300', on the other hand, owes some of its visual splendor not only to Toth, but to Foster and (especially) Jack Kirby.
Miller's stories, however, are by turns grisly, sardonic, bleak and dehumanizing. Even his star-making turn on 'Daredevil' was marked by a brooding, blood-soaked, revelry with violence that bordered on the pornographic. In this series and in his subsequent reinvention of Batman as 'the Dark Knight', Miller pushes the superhero-as-vigilante trope to what he feels, perhaps, is its logical, if blood-curdling conclusion. By the end of one series, an aging Bruce Wayne has become the fanatical head of a terrorist organization bent upon the overthrow of an increasingly Orwellian future America. Perhaps unsatisfied with the radicalization of the great detective, Miller has pushed the envelope further in 'Sin City', whose protagonist is a lumbering sadist.
Innovative, I suppose, but that doesn't make it great. I'd rather have one copy of Kirby's "Captain America's Bicentennial Battles" than all of Miller's works. It's absurd to link the wonderful humanity of Jack Kirby's creation with Miller's visceral but perverse version of Thermopylae.
"Remember your comic books! The willing suspension of disbelief for ridiculous wish-fulfillment fantasies is exactly the training you need to be a member in good standing at your local church or synagogue. They'll also help you see Muslims as the personification of absolute evil."
Oh, gimme a break! This is a rather dumb statement. With one sweep you actually condemn ALL fiction in word and/or picture as training for religion.
Of course all fiction requires a certain suspension of disbelief, regardless if it's e.g. Shakespeare, Mark Twain, any Science Fiction or even a *gasp* comic book. Btw. so does any kind of inventiveness or creativity. To come up with a new idea and follow it through you have to suspend your disbelief that it might actually work against your previous experience. At least for a while until it's either proven to work or evidence shows that it will not work. Problems only arise if this suspension is held for too long.
About comics:
Apart from the "kid" and the "superhero" genre, there's rather a lot of very good comics with complex and morally ambivalent stories out there. In the last decade(s) even within the mainstream, e.g. under the "vertigo" or "dark horse" imprint. A lot of comic book stories are much better than your average book too, especially of the Crichton/Clancy variety. And in a whole other league than your average "movie story".
The reduction of comics per se to the superhero genre might be just a case of american tunnel vision. The whole superhero stuff never was that big anywhere else as it was in the US.
Having read literally thousands of comics, I still fail to know even a single comic which might "help to see muslims as the personification of absolute evil". Even "300" doesn't do that. Where the F*** would any muslims come from in ancient Greece anyhow ?
If anything, muslims are rather absent in comics.
@stephen frug:
"Too many Americans have comic-book ways of understanding reality"
"Which would be just fine, if the comic books in question were, oh, say, Joe Sacco's Palestine, Art Spiegelman's In the Shadow of No Towers and Marjane Satrapi's Persepolis. It's all about making sure you read the righ comic books..."
Exactly ! Or "Maus" or "Pride of Baghdad" or maybe even Hellblazer. A good hellblazer story tells a lot about moral ambivalence and the evils of smug self-righteousness. ;)
It might be preferrable, to read comics from a different country too. Gives you really some insight into the way other people feel and think.
A bit of an eye-opener to me was reading a lot of vintage DC War comics from the 70s and 80s. Explained a lot of things that were a mystery to me before. ;)
Well, one good thing about the whole 300 phenomenon - it's made it a whole lot easier to spot both the pretentious assholes who don't actually know a damn thing about history and the closet fascists. Anytime you hear someone talk about how great the Spartans were, you know your in the company of someone who falls into at least one of those categories.
I mean, seriously, I've been racking my brains here and I can't come up with a single society in the whole of history (that I know of) that's definitely nastier than ancient Sparta.
The Persian upper class women appeared to be even freer from what records we have. They owned land, could work in any profession, including arms. They were Zorosterans which was a bit more theologically sophisticated than a lot of other religions of the day.
I saw 300 with my brother and began seeing it as a pro-Iraqi vs. a George Bush who didn't just speak to God but who was God. We defeated the secular Iraqis who'd been fighting the mystics for decades and unleashed civil war. Saddam was Leonides.
Aztecs seem to have been nastier than Spartans, perhaps. Equal toss up, same condition of being a fighting tribe who conquered a more sophisticated culture and tried to dominate the former inhabitants with terror and succeeded for a while. Sparta seems to have had a longer run. Both were among the weirder human cultures going.
And the Thespians who died with the Spartans, and the other group that surrendered to the Persians when it was obviously lethal not to seemed to have gone missing in 300.
Dunc:
I mean, seriously, I've been racking my brains here and I can't come up with a single society in the whole of history (that I know of) that's definitely nastier than ancient Sparta.
Ummm...WWII Germany? The ancient Israelites? Aztec sacrifices? The Vikings? (yeah, tell me that carving a blood-eagle ISN'T nasty?, NTM pillaging & rapine) Theodosius' Rome?
Krystalline Apostate: yeah, I see what you're saying, and it's hard to do a sensible comparision of various divergent horrific practices across time and space, but I'd argue that the Spartans were at least as nasty as any of those. I mean, what with the mass slavery, the murder-as-initiation-into-citizenship, the infanticide, the institutionalised child abuse (physical, psychological, and sexual), etc, etc... While many societies have had one or two practices that were easily comparable to specific Spartan practices, I don't think any have had such a comprehensive set. OK, I'll grant that the Aztecs might be a toss-up... But I don't recall them institutionalising homosexual child rape as an essential part of a young man's education.
I mean, it's like someone sat down with a modern, scientific understanding of psychology and decided to see just how badly they could fuck people up.
The Nazis were pussies by comparison - they just had better technology and organisation. Give ancient Sparta the resources and capabilities of Nazi Germany and there's no telling what horrors they'd have wrought.
Really, I'm not trying to minimise the appalling nastiness of any of those other inarguably nasty civilisations, but Sparta more-or-less had all the worst points of all of them, with a few extra, unique nasties thrown in for spice.
Freedom may well have its price but it also has 'interpretation'.
I've defended this film at length with my Iranian born work colleague. Her arguement is that this film is a direct provocation to war. It stems from a belief that Hollywood is in colusion with the American political system. She states that the depiction of the persians as evil tyrants against the freedom fighting spartans is a deliberate and calculated exercise to control public opinion and has urged people in our office not to go see it.
I'll show my ignorance now, until the debate started it hadnt occured to me that Persians and Iranians are one and the same! Not exactly Mensa material I here you cry! My point is that I took the film on face value, I went to see an action movie and thats exactly what I got.
In the context of sitting in a cinema to be entertained I wasnt interested in the true historical accounts of what Spartans were really like, I just wanted them to kick some Persian ass!
Does this mean I'm falling under Hollywood/Washington's brainwashing influence, NO. To leave the cinema and take all that I've seen and heared as historical fact and then equate it with modern day Iran would be ridiculous.
To restore a lttle faith in my intellect (but obviously not my spelling!) know that I regularly visit the British Museum and often attend lectures there. One of the best features of the museum is a fantastic Gateway from the Persian Empire. I tell you this simply to state that for gretuitous action and entertainment I watch movies, to stimulate my eratic intellect I look for other sources. Even then I take the lectures for what they are 'one mans opinion' but when I look at the detail and skill used to produce the gateway I form the most important opinion 'my own'.
My Iranian friend sadly wont conceed the point and believes that 'the west' and its people are too corrupted to see the truth. I believe that she is the one under an 'influence' and has listened to closley to polital retoric and paranoia. All I can do is continue to debate the issue, copromise were necesary and find our middle ground lets hope the politians do the same! After all that perhaps I should get on and do some work!!!!!
Is this referring to the "Golem" theory of superheroes, specifically Superman? In any case, nice catch, that is pointing more directly to the superstition roots of both such comics and religion.
This seems to have been the original concept of freedom, freedom for the privileged.
Spartan society has some analogues to the Vikings, where "trälar" (thralls) were made by enslavement during war, or voluntarily during famines. (Btw, the later way was the first to be forbidden. Seems nobody liked the idea of risking to become one among peers.) Slave trade was one of the vikings largest income sources.
Never the less, it seems such societies were organized around an increasingly constrained freedom with the slaves at the bottom. Interestingly, trading with serfs was forbidden in England already 1102 (thralldom was forbidden in Sweden 1337) and the worst trade in humans seems to have been nearly gone in Europe by the 15th century. (It was trading with Africa that is said to have reintroduced it.)
So while it was quite a while before democracy was introduced and villeinage disappeared (it wasn't until 1943 (!) that "torpare" in Sweden was forbidden to pay with working for their landlord) some of the actions that lead to the modern concept of freedom for all seems to have started with removing the worst offenses.
(I have cribbed this from sources all over the web, not being conversant with history. It was too interesting a subject not to try seeing the overall picture. As always, I appreciate any corrections.)
I'm sure this was how the Spartan's thought of it, freedom with responsibilities. In that regards it is like freedom under democracy, except that we are all equally constrained.
Today many think like Spartans towards animals in their care. I hear Britain is far ahead there too. (Meanwhile, at least we have "The Ballad of Lost C'mell".)