Shelley the Republican says:
We conservatives have grown accustomed to liberal activist judges perverting justice for their own evil ends. Last year Judge Jones betrayed us all when he passed his verdict in the Dover school-book case. Shortly afterwards, our dear friend Kent was convicted of tax evasion.
U.S. District Judge Casey Rodgers will sentence the Hovinds at 9 a.m for the alleged crime of tax evasion. They claim that he and his lovely wife Jo owe the state almost one million dollars in unpaid taxes. A quick review of the case show that the federal court unfairly denied Hovind's sensible and truthful defence: Kent owes no tax because everything he "owns" is really property of God. This is a fact that we would all do well to remember!
So please dear friends, join me in prayer this morning. Let us pray to Jesus that Kent and Jo will be allowed to continue their important ministry and continue teaching young scientists about the many flaws in Darwin's theory of evolution.
Prayer doesn't work, I guess.
Pensacola evangelist Kent Hovind was sentenced Friday afternoon to 10 years in prison on charges of tax fraud.
After a lengthy sentencing hearing that last 5 1/2 hours, U.S. District Judge Casey Rodgers ordered Hovind also:
-- Pay $640,000 in restitution to the Internal Revenue Service.
-- Pay the prosecution's court costs of $7,078.
-- Serve three years parole once he is released from prison.
Hovind's wife, Jo Hovind, also was scheduled to be sentenced. Rodgers postponed her sentencing until March 1 to allow her defense attorney an opportunity to argue possible discrepancies in sentencing guidelines.
Prior to his sentencing, a tearful Kent Hovind, also known as "Dr. Dino" asked for the court's leniency.
"If it's just money the IRS wants, there are thousands of people out there who will help pay the money they want so I can go back out there and preach," Hovind said.
This is very unseemly, but … BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Maybe God just doesn't answer Republican prayers anymore.
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I thought that Shelley thing was a parody. That "property of God" bit made be figure it must be a parody, but I guess not. Some people are beyond help, I suppose, like the little old ladies still sending their SS checks to Jim Baker after he was proven to be a crook. P.T. Barnum was right.
In another fine case of hooey-skewering, James Randi points out that Sylvia Browne told the parents of recently-recovered teen Shawn Hornbeck that their son was definitely dead, his body would be found in the woods, and that his abductor was a dreadlocked Hispanic man with a blue car.
Wanna put any bets on whether this will shut her down forever?
That's not very nice. It is also hilarious.
That site is parody. They don't even delete "obscene" comments
"If it's just money the IRS wants, there are thousands of people out there who will help pay the money they want so I can go back out there and preach," Hovind said.
No no no, Kent. The IRS doesn't want the money you owe from thousands of people, they want it from YOU.
I'm gonna have fun with my own blog on this one. Not only is Hovind completely unrepentent, but completely oblivious. As usual, he just doesn't get it. The sentence wasn't just about the IRS wanting its money, it's about punishment for wilfully and knowingly committing a tax fraud! They should have tacked on a few years for his suggesting that T. rex was a herbivore.
Far be it for me to gloat, but I'll join in with my own BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Property of god my ass. If you want to believe that, then everything is the property of god. 'Render unto Caesar' punk.
If Hovind prays sincerely, I think God is obligated to pony up enough money to clear his debts. That's right out of the "prosperity gospel" that many modern preachers are hawking these days. Name it and claim it, Kent!
Shelley is indeed a parody, and quite well known. There's some searingly good parody in that site if you look for more than a few minutes.
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Translating loosely from: "If it's just money the IRS wants, there are thousands of people out there who will help pay the money they want so I can go back out there and preach," Hovind said, "Hey, IRS, just let me keep fleecing the sheep, and we can BOTH make a lot of money."
Something similar is taking place in Miami right now.
"Apostle Estevam" and "Bishop Sonia," founders of a 1,200-church "Reborn in Christ" Pentecostal empire in Brazil, came to the U.S. with a little extra cash on them. A bit more than the $10,000 they declared at Customs.
I love this part:
"Agents found the first extra bundle of cash, $9,000, tucked into the cover of Sonia's Bible (emphasis mine). They found other bundles of money squirreled away in various places, including inside a CD case, in a folded jacket packed in a suitcase and in the backpack of their young son, Gabriel, according to the arrest affidavit. The grand total: $56,000."
They were arrested by the FBI at U.S. Customs, bailed out, then arrested again by Immigration the instant they were released. And then, bad news back home:
"A Brazilian court issued arrest warrants for the couple ... after investigators there argued that the charges against them in Miami were proof that they were laundering money, evading taxes and that the cash they brought to the United States might eventually be used to flee Brazilian justice."
So sad. They're accused of taking church donations and buying "mansions, real estate and other valuable assets worth millions of dollars both in Brazil and in the United States," according to the Sao Paulo organized crime unit.
Like Jim and Tammie Faye Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, Ted Haggard, Kent Hovind, and so many others, the long carefree campaign of preying on the sick and weak comes to a very nasty, very public end.
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I think this is a great opportunity for Dr Dino to discover some earthly pleasures, that his friend Ted Haggard been enjoying until recently ... ;)
For those who have followed Mr. Dino for some time, you might check out YouTube for a video of Ali G and Dr. Hovind in a group interview together. Normally I wouldn't wish Ali G's antics on anyone, but Hovind (I think avoiding calling him Dr. for a fake doctorate is deserved) is one of the few people who deserves it. I'd feel a lot less sorry for the guy if I thought he was really in it for the money, and isn't actually *that* misguided.
Kent Hovind is a creepy, criminal ass.
I just don't understand how society benefits from locking this guy up. I think a very few, violent criminals are the only ones who should be in cages, and our big brains should find a bunch of creative, rehabilitative, dare we say corrective means of justice.
Alas, prison is a big moneymaker for some folks, and, in the US at least, a load of our taxes perpetuate it. Fear, ignorance and scattershot revenge, combined with apathy and ignorance, is all it takes to grow the largest bunch of human cages in the world. Did I say "ignorance" twice?
Yes, I did.
Another nail in the coffin of that "only Christians can be moral" myth. Incidentally, what's up with that silly Shelley gal? Check out this nugget of ignorance:
http://www.shelleytherepublican.com/2007/01/19/of-pandas-wolves-birds-a…
I just don't understand how society benefits from locking this guy up. I think a very few, violent criminals are the only ones who should be in cages, and our big brains should find a bunch of creative, rehabilitative, dare we say corrective means of justice.
Given the extent to which our prison population outstrips any other country in the world (per capita, and including all the nastiest places) this sentiment is hard to argue with. But given that this is how we do business, that's what we do with a guy like that.
I do see more reason to lock up a guy like Hovind than say, a guy who sells a small amount of cocaine (say the amount that Bush and Bath probably sold in Texas that landed Bush in community service). Namely, that Hovind does more harm than a smalltime drug dealer, or burglar. Not just the mental harm -- let's pretend that's non-existent for now -- but hit in the pocketbook harm. He's stealing from others when he convinces people to give up their money so he can live large.
Hans says: I think this is a great opportunity for Dr Dino to discover some earthly pleasures, that his friend Ted Haggard been enjoying until recently ... ;)
I really hope you mean consensual sex, like Haggard had, and that this is not a rape joke.
It is hard to believe that Hovind could not see where this was headed years ago. I have talked with him twice, and I have to say that rationality was not his longsuit.
*points and laughs*
self-inflicted AND FUNNY!!!
I agree, Qat, about Hovind doing much more harm, mental and fiscal, to the state, than small time drug users/sellers. They shouldn't be in cages either, of course.
Hovind's slap at the entire community (by not paying for community services via taxes) is a much greater crime, morally, than the small drug crimes.
I can't believe he got only 10 years, given that prison is currently our national style.
Wow. That means I have 10 years to set up a small publishing company. When Hovind gets out, I'll be the first publisher to accept whatever poorly written, rambling pile of hand-written-in-crayon nonsense he produces when he decides to write a book about the experience. The martyr dollars will be huge. I'll make a fortune.
I didn't think it was possible for there to be anything more joyous and pleasurable than watching a crooked politician going to jail. I was wrong. If only there was a way we could make Hovind feel more miserable than he already does. Any chance we see him frog marched off to his jail cell? That'd be awesome.
Somebody please tell me this ShelleyTheRepublican thing is meant to be satire.
Please?
If it IS satire, it's freakin' hilarious. If it's NOT satire, it's freakin' scary.
I'm serious. I wanna know. Can anyone confirm?
"If it's just money the IRS wants, there are thousands of people out there who will help pay the money they want so I can go back out there and preach," Hovind said.
Hey, Kent. You've lived off those thousands of suckers for too long, now.
Oh. And God hates you. He told me so. We were chillin' one night, watching Cold Case Files, and...
God (digging into the chips): Hovind was just using me, too. Just like Katherine Harris. And Pat Robertson. Can you believe he told me that, now that he's made this terrorist attack claim on television, I have to cough up a crisis in 2007.
Kristine: You are such an enabler! You've got to get out of this codependency thing. *Munch* Besides, when you kick them to the curb, they never blame you, anyway, so what up with the fear thing?
God: Yeah, I know you're right, but it's hard. What I really want to do is form a rock'n'roll band. *Crunch* Okay, that's it! Hovie's going down! I've had it with being used!
See, Kent? Sucks to be you. ;-)
I wonder if Hovind will make a bid for leniency or early parole by invoking the virtually mandatory "I found Jesus" claim.
As for the "thousands of people out there" willing to pay the bill, wouldn't Hovind have to report that as income, on which he would have to pay tax?
Paul,
It's freakin' hilarious. It's going into 'Favourites'.
Paul D, yes I believe it is satire, in the same vein as:
http://objectiveministries.org/
Yes, Doc Bill, that is exactly right. There is no "free lunch" when it comes to taxes. It's pay your own way, all the way.
Christmas came twice.
Even to the event that people paid the back tax for Hovind, they'd miss the problem. SImply because someone claims to be a Christian (or, for that matter, sincerely tries) will not stop them from also having to act in their other roles (politician, provider, etc).
It just doesn't matter. Good stuff from Shelley though.
Really, I find it sad that Mr Hovind continues to think that he's done "good" with all the lies he's ensnared himself with.
Shelley The Republican is satire. Absolutely positively. As evidence, the following quotes:
"If you ain't convinced that the bastard President Vilsack would hand over the country to gay, dog-eating, Mexican/Chinese felons then I want you to consider this ..."
"I like to think of the Republican party as a big old church with wide open doors, and a friendly sign outside inviting anybody who truly loves our Lord and Savour, Jesus Christ to come on in ..."
And if those weren't enough, the clincher:
"Your support for Nancy Pelosi means certain
death for these innocent ducks"
Comic gold, if you ask me.
Schadefreude tastes soooo sweet!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if people sent money to Hovind, wouldn't he owe taxes on that, too?
Actually, if they give it as "gifts", *they* owe taxes (if it's over $10,000 from a single person). If it's "in return for a service", it's regular income and he owes the taxes. (There is a form you can fill out declaring that you believe the income isn't taxable for religious reasons, but it doesn't count for past donations. I can look it up if anyone cares.)
I work for a large green tax prep company (though I don't speak for them in the slightest) and had a client last year who at first I thought would be fine (all donations) but on further questioning he owed income *AND* SS/Medicare self-employment b/c it was given in return for performing weddings, writing about his temple's founder, etc. He decided I was wrong and didn't file - ah well, I can't make him.
It's interesting how Hovind is now offering to come up with the money, when previously his defense was that he was only accountable to God and didn't owe the state anything. Maybe the time he spent in prison awaiting sentencing was enough to make him realize what he had gotten himself into - far too late, of course.
Kristine - How long have you and God been dating?
Everyone else - How long before the Hovinds are up for parole?
I know some parole boards are suckers for a prisoner's claim to have found Jesus (and only Jesus; finders of Allah, Buddha, the Torah, Wicca, atheism, etc. are SOL). But that usually goes with a big show of remorse over their crimes--basically,"I did it because I wasn't a Christian then, and didn't appreciate how sinful it was." But the Hovinds are surely going to market themselves as Christian martyrs to religion-hating liberals in the IRS or whatever, so their shtick is going to be the opposite: "We did it because we're Christians."
If they show remorse in a parole hearing, they're basically admitting the IRS is right and they're full of crap. If they don't show remorse--a parole board usually requires an admission of culpability before they'll let a prisoner go. But maybe they give the Hovinds a pass because they're really, really, really<;i> Christian.
Other question: Given the way the Bush Admninistration is treating federal attorneys who actually do their jobs, how's the Hovinds' prosecuter doing? Still employed?
10 years, eh? Hmmm... His parishioners will forget him in a week. They're funny like that, aren't they?
http://friendlyatheist.com/2006/12/01/shelley-the-republican-debunked/
It looks very likely that the Shelley site is a satire.
It might be best if we start treating all the Christianists as satire. That way we can all just laugh and ignore them, and convince our legislators to do so as well.
Maybe God just doesn't answer Republican prayers anymore
It ain't just Republican prayers.
The Pope keeps praying for peace in the Middle East and we all know how that worked out.
"How long before the Hovinds are up for parole?"
This is federal - no parole. He can get 15% (18 months) off for "good behavior."
Proof that Shelley the Republican is satire (and way better than Landover Baptist), I direct your attention to the liberal plot to insert smut into the Holy Bible. Ladies and gentleman, I give you The Song of Solomon Exposed
I wonder if Hovind will make a bid for leniency or early parole by invoking the virtually mandatory "I found Jesus" claim.
Someone tried that recently in drug conviction in Kitchener, Ontario. He was sentenced to ten years.
It will interesting to see if Hovind's web site and blog are updated.
Good news indeed. Maybe the IRS should check out the Discovery Institute next, see where all the money that they are supposed to be spending on "science" went. Prayerbooks maybe? Hmmm???
They are dirty, dammit, I'd bet Dembski a bottle of single malt scotch they are, but he never paid off on the last bet he lost, so why bother.
This is some awfully fine Caeser Rendering though, I have to say. Good riddence to bad rubbish. Ten long, long, long, long years Hovind...
10 years! At least my prayer was answered.
Gee, I would have thought Kent would be thrilled, after that lovely post he made about all the lost souls he was teaching to read and find God while waiting sentencing. Congrats Kent, you get to have that loving feeling for 10 years. Think of all the classes you can teach...
Our American prisons are hardly a place for anyone to see and acknowledge the error of their ways. While I have no love for Hovind, I don't see how 10 years of what amounts to abuse rectifies anything that he has done.
Well since Shelley thinks Hovind is such a great American, and since she sides with his transparent and responsibility-shifting defense, why don't we suggest the IRS move on to her taxes next.
As happy as I am whenever a high profile schiester gets what he deserves, I share Skeptyck's philosophy that only violent criminals should be locked up.
I wish we had a better system in place to punish non violent offenders. It is as much a slap in the face to call that "justice" as it is to call Hovind "Dr.".
...the federal court unfairly denied Hovind's sensible and truthful defence: Kent owes no tax because everything he "owns" is really property of God.
Surely this is parody. There's no way any human with the capability to string letters into a sentence could possibly think that was a sensible defence. It's just not possible.
10 years seems an awfully long time for a non-violent crime.
Someone commenting here spoke with Hovind twice? Wasn't once enough?
While I have no love for Hovind, I don't see how 10 years of what amounts to abuse rectifies anything that he has done. <\i>
Too bad he was not convicted here in Texas. It would have been interesting to see the jury work through their conflicting loves of the Good Book and the death penalty.
There is still one big problem with Dr Dino serving his time. pResident GWB still has the power to pardon for two more years [barring impeachment].
For those who don't think that prison is appropriate: What should an alternative sentence be? Ten years of hard labor in the Montana badlands digging fossils?
A quick review of the case show that the federal court unfairly denied Hovind's sensible and truthful defence: Kent owes no tax because everything he "owns" is really property of God. This is a fact that we would all do well to remember!
A tax question??
Uhhhh, maybe, since they're ostensibly Christians, a better thing for them to remember would be the Gospels?
Then the Pharisees went out and laid plans to trap him in his words. They sent their disciples to him along with the Herodians. "Teacher," they said, "we know you are a man of integrity and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. You aren't swayed by men, because you pay no attention to who they are. Tell us then, what is your opinion? Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not?"
But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said, "You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me? Show me the coin used for paying the tax." They brought him a denarius, and he asked them, "Whose portrait is this? And whose inscription?"
"Caesar's," they replied.
Then he said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."
- Matthew 22:15-21 (New International Version), a passage which specifically addresses the matter of paying taxes to a secular authority
With all respectI have to say you people say alot of bad things about Brother Hovind, but if you would examine your own lives and see what all you have done, you would see we all should have been locked up along time ago(Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God"Romans 3:10 "there is none righteous, no not one")Dont put Hovind down to lift yourselves up in your own "righteousness" thati being a HYPOCRITE. It takes the righteousness of God to get to heaven,which is through Christ alone. Isaiah 55:6 "Search Ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near" Romans 10:13 "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved" Please consider your ways and God Bless
Blake, been there, done that........
In the words of the spiritual ---
FREE AT LAST! FREE AT LAST! THANK GOD ALMIGHTY I'M FREE (of your damn trap, for so it is) AT LAST!!!!!
Gee, let me consider my ways then.
Hmm.
Some things I'm not proud of. Nothing that compares to defrauding thousands to millions of honest but gullible Americans of their hard-earned money selling them lies about the history of the world. Nothing that's even a pixel's width at the appropriate magnification to view the whole of the suffering he's caused, and the unearned luxury he's enjoyed.
I find it ironic that Hovind, like Al Capone, wound up being nailed for tax evasion.
Blake, you're right, I cheated the government out of hundreds of thousands of dollars in taxes many times, and hid behind sanctimonious self-righteousness, and should be locked up, too!
Actually, no, I'm 22 and don't owe the government a dime. Keep your Original Sin to yourself, please.
Why don't you turn your Floodlight of Truth and Humility into the many dark corners of Christian Fundamentalism? Maybe you can start by illuminating the thinking of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, who both agreed that we "deserved" 9/11. Maybe you can shed some light on all that their statements imply. Or maybe you can simply tell me if there's anything more self-righteous than a Bible-thumper condemning those whose opinions or behaviors he condemns?
"Wasn't once enough?"! Ha!
I like the idea of ten years digging fossils. Maybe the truth would, uh, get rubbed in with the dirt.
Prayer doesn't work: Darwin's cousin, Francis Galton, did the original de-bunking in 1872 with "Statistical Enquiries into the Efficacy of Prayer. He realized that, with millions of people praying for the health of the sovereign, if prayer were effective, the rulers should have longer lives. The lijnk is to a brief description and e-book.
Pat robertson and jerry falwell are both heretics so who cares what they say.we are all under sin fornicating is just as bad as tax evasion, telling lies are just as bad as tax evasion. sin is sin. Personally I think Brother hovind is hard headed. I see how he considered his work a ministry(and that it is). The goverment doesnt care what it is they want $$$.Brother Hovind does not lie About creation/Evolution/Age of the Earth.If he is such a liar why would not 1 professor debate him at berkely.Christians dont condemn no one the bible sys you are condemned already.You were born into sin.
Blake -
Evidence, please?
And you, Blake, were born into idiocy.
Ah, excuse me, that was a bit reflexive but is actually quite wrong. You see, no one is born that stupid--they're made that way through years and years of systematic indoctrination. That does not absolve you, however.
More to the point at hand, professors don't debate with Hovind because they have self-respect. Hovind, on the other hand, lacks all credibility, being a fraud, liar, and now a convicted felon (that said, I've known more than a few convicted felons were who actually quite trustworthy, but not Hovind). He ignores a specific commandment from no less than Jesus himself (!) to pay taxes.
And indeed, Christians "don't condemn no one." They condemn everyone by subscribing to a doctrine that presupposes one's eternal torture unless certain circumstances are met.
One other point: the severity of all sins is the same only if the wrongness of sin is rooted in its disobeying God. In such a view, the wrongness of an act is at the caprice of God, and I suppose we're just lucky that Christians aren't called by God to become serial murderers. After all, if that were the case, then swearing would be just as bad as not being a homicidal sociopath.
The real point, Blake, is that people's goodness or badness does not rest in their religion. Most people are really good at creating justifications for what they already think is right; whether that is right or not is another question entirely. Hence, the famous saying that religion is good for good people--their goodness lies in something beyond their religious belief. For bad people, like Hovind, their religion simply gives them the veneer of authority they need to justify what they already practice--selfishness, greed, and dishonesty.
And, to be fair, I could easily have made that point without calling you an idiot. That was unnecessary and I apologize for that.
But I stand by the rest of my post.
Blake:
Debate isn't all it's cracked up to be, as you'd know if you'd read what virtually any skeptic has written on the subject. Rhetoric and logic are two entirely different fields, and frankly most scientists just aren't trained in rhetoric. So basically a creationist could debate rings around a scientist and still not say anything that's actually true. So really, debating a creationist is a waste of time.
And by the way, a good number of us have measured our lives and found God wanting more than us.
Blake sez:
Jesus sez:
FIGHT!!
Azkyroth: It seems that, with respect to "Brother" Hovind, you and I have yet one more reason to celebrate with a beer!
Blake: Unlike many people here, I believe in God. I also believe that Mr. Hovind is a scumbag. Is that so hard to say? Look, Blake, your posts give me the impression that you have a hard time admitting that you've been had, and that you're afraid to consider the role that your beliefs play in keeping you from thinking critically about a guy who, by his actions, is clearly a scoundrel.
Brian X: Well said. Gould, with typical verve, said much the same thing when he remarked that debate is an art form concerned with the winning of arguments, rather than the discovery of truth.
That said, though, the debate experience can be instructive. If done well, it's worth doing....SH
Unfortunately men get raped in prison. Luckily, for Kent Hovind, he doesn't have to worry about being raped by a dinosaur.
ShelleyTheRepublican has added "FREE KEN HOVIND!" to its banner. Priceless.
I first came across that site some months ago because of some truely inspired posts equating Linux with godlessness, terrorism, and general anti-American European fecklessness. They were hilarious, as was the follow-up a little more recently pointing out that Apple is part of the evil homosexual plot to corrupt our innocent children. I became an instant fan.
I loved the Pandas post Brando linked to above. The site doesn't always bat them out of the park, but almost every post has a gem or two, like from today's screed on the mix tape debacle: "The RIAA is the federal organisation whose job it is to protect America from pornographic rock." Indeed!
About this thread: It's bemusing that it's so hard to tell Shelley the Republican's subtle satire from Blake's raving (or is his illiterate nuttiness a parody?). Also that so many posters don't get the satire and apparently don't even skim the several posts telling them it is.
I wonder if Hovind will continue teaching creationism once he's in prison? (You know he always wanted a captive audience.) Kinda makes me feel sorry for the other inmates....
Hey Kristine, if you and God ARE dating, keep in mind that you can have sex with him and still be a virgin.
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Those of you who think prison is a bad punishment for non-violent crimes ...
Let's say "Al" walks up behind 72-year-old May Ludlow at the ready-teller. Then, after she takes out $100 to get her through the week, he knocks her to the ground, kicks her walker off to the side, snatches the money from her hand and runs off with it.
Violent crime? Sure. He hit an old woman. He robbed her. Money she needed for the week's food, medicine and bus fare. He'd deserve some serious time-out for this. Years of it. In prison.
Now let's say "Bob" is the head of a multi-billion-dollar energy-trading firm. Nice guy, plays golf. Wears expensive suits. Vacations in Belize with his beautiful family, where they have a totally sweet beachfront mansion with tennis courts, their own dock, and a six-car garage.
But Bob breaks a number of federal laws, and as a result of the lies and double-dealing that he shepherds through, the corporation he heads tanks. It's all very suit-and-tie, one of those crimes where the suspect is allowed to shower, shave, have a nice leisurely breakfast, put on a nice suit, and then be driven by chauffeur down to the police station, where he "surrenders" in the presence of his attorneys. Nothing to see here, folks, move along.
But it turns out that arthritic May Ludlow's deceased husband was an employee of that firm. And he invested ALL of their retirement funds in it. The next time May goes to the ready-teller, the screen flashes "Account Overdrawn - Unable to Process Request."
In three months, May is out of food, unable to pay her heating bill, and is suffering such a painful flare-up of her arthritis - because she can't afford her medicine - that she can no longer walk to the door to retrieve the eviction notice for non-payment of rent. Long after the bruises inflicted on her by Al have healed, she is permanently crippled by the arthritis, she's eating cat food sandwiches, and facing sudden homelessness.
Multiply May by a factor of 30,000, to take into account all the employees who trusted that firm.
Does well-manicured Bob, with his beautiful family and his house in Belize, deserve time in prison?
Oh, no! Bob's not violent! He's an upstanding, GOOD man. Nobody got mugged! It was all just paperwork. His intentions were benign. And knowing those silly damned anti-free-market federal laws, it probably shouldn't even BE a crime! It was just business!
Put this obviously good FAMILY man in a dirty, uncouth PRISON? Where he would be exposed to actual CRIMINALS? And abusive, disrespectful GUARDS?? -- Whatever could those federal prosecutors be thinking?
Bearing in mind this is a TOTALLY HYPOTHETICAL illustration of my point, something that never happened, never COULD happen, I still have to feel that the crime committed by Bob is about a hundred thousand times more serious - more harm caused to more real people - than the one committed by Al.
Okay?
Okay. Now here we have "Father John" dealing with May. In this case, Father John doesn't rob May at the ready-teller. He doesn't screw her out of her entire retirement nest egg by bookkeeping shenanigans.
Instead, Father John slyly convinces someone to go down and clean out May's bank account. He promises this person eternal life, total forgiveness for all bad acts and thoughts, a complete cessation of the pain of her arthritis, and a happy reunion with her dead husband.
Who does he convince to empty May's savings? -- May herself.
But, really, is this a crime? Strangely enough, it isn't.
Father John can tell May ten thousand lies, he can fool her into giving him all her worldly possessions, slickly screw her out of the meager scraps of whatever future she has, and IT'S TOTALLY LEGAL.
(Cut to: Father John, flush with cash, whooping with joy as he finds a bargain on a totally SWEET beachfront property in Belize.)
Excuse me, but ... Wow.
So these are all hypothetical cases. So I've exaggerated here and there for dramatic effect. Can you really believe that these kinds of things don't happen? That they don't happen OFTEN?
May is a complete fiction, someone I made up for this post. But ... under a hundred different names, she's out there, right now, getting mugged at a ready-teller.
She's out there, right now, under a thousand different names, losing some of her money (all of it?) to an investment that should have been good, would have been good, but for the dishonest greed of corporate CEOs.
She's out there right this minute, under a million different names, old and a bit fuzzy in her thinking, stressed out of her mind by being mugged in March, then losing all her retirement money in July, now here in January falling under the spell of a televangelist, wanting desperately to believe that the pain in her hands and back will stop, that she will see her beloved Henry again, that her heat will miraculously come back on, that God will somehow provide her enough money that she doesn't have to eat cat food anymore, if she only sends Father John $1,000, and prays hard enough.
For my part, if Father John cheats on his taxes, the same taxes you and I have to pay ... I say yes, throw the bastard in prison - nasty, dirty, PMITA prison - for decades.
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Blake wrote:
Pat robertson and jerry falwell are both heretics
Are you condemning them?
...so who cares what they say.
You have a point. Unfortunately, many people do. These are rich, influential men.
More on Hovind: A few minutes \Googling reveals that Brother Hovind is more than "hard-headed," far more than "a fraud and a liar." He is delusional. He believes that "Lucent" is a contraction of Lucifer Enterprises. He believes that silicon chips contain the Number of the Beast. He believes that 9/11 was a crime committed to mask the theft of huge stores of gold from under the WTC. The list of things he believes is far too long to cite here. I had no idea he was so far gone. Maybe prison is the wrong approach altogether for this guy.
Not highjacking the thread for the prison reform/prison abolition debate, but a few words of thanks to Hank Fox.
No, I do not think any of those hypotheticals you presented should go to what we have NOW for prisons, (since we are speaking hypothetically).
Do I have the answers? No, but even reframing the questions is important. Hank is doing that by pointing out how dangerous "Fr. John" is, and how very much worse the crimes of "Bob" are than the crime of "Al". I agree wholeheartedly. Bob and Fr. John will do repeated, long term damage to people. Where we may differ is that I think none of those guys, Al nor Bob nor Fr. John, should be in cages.
A better, different system altogether is what I hope for. Do I know what that will look like? No, but nor did many of the slavery abolitionists a couple hundred years ago know what a nation without legal slavery would look like nor how it would get there.
Prison abolition does not mean open all the cages and hope for the best. It means thinking outside the box. Literally. Alternatives to incarceration, restorative justice.
Only a very few even violent criminals need be so completely separated from society for so long; in most cases, we should be seeking a way for for folks to give back while protecting the rest of us from them in other ways than shipping them out of state to blocks of cages where they can be mutually regressed and brutalized. Don't forget that most of these folks are released at some point.
We have a lot of technology available and more possible, but we have a failure of will and of imagination at the level of the purse strings.
The reason i say those guys are heretics is the same reason darwin was.They teach contrary to the Word of God.The Bible is perfect no matter what one thinks.
Uh, no, it isn't. It's a particular collection of myths.
Did you know there's no archaeological evidence for any of it prior to the narratives of Ezra and Nehemiah (the very last narrative of all)? Most telling is that in one of the two (forget which) there is found after their "return" in amongst the ruins - surprise! - a copy of the Law of Moses (imagine that!).
Frankly it all sounds like Ezra was probably nothing more than the Joseph Smith of his day.
You're duped by a fake story, just like the Mormons have been.
Even John Calvin called the creaion story of Genesis "baby talk".........
"The Bible is perfect no matter what one thinks." Blake
This seems to suggest that Blake is attempting parody. Either that, or he has never read the Babble.
I see that according to http://www.drdino.com/itinerary.php "Dr." Kent Hovind has 4 speaking engagements planned in April, May and September this year.
I do hope the federal prison authorities are aware...
Which one?
The one where humans get created last, on the 6th day?
Or the one where Adam (mentioned by name) gets created first, then (during a stretch of time the duration of which is not mentioned) the rest of the world, and then Eve (mentioned by name) from his rib?
Or both?
Obviously, Blake is attempting parody, and quite good at it.
Wow, another Blake on the Internet!
To Bunjo: For providing that link to Dr. Dino's website, without a disclaimer that it may cause (hopefully temporary) brain damage to any viewers naive enough to click on it, you may have become responsible for any damages, including, but not limited to: therapy and treatment expenses, property damages, and emotional trauma.
If I wreck my car bacause a Bombardier beetle sent by God shoots me in the eye, you will be contacted by my lawyer. And it won't be the one that defended Hovind!
Sincerely,
MikeG
Maybe the Hovinds will hole up with the Browns.
The reason i say those guys are heretics is the same reason darwin was.They teach contrary to the Word of God.The Bible is perfect no matter what one thinks.
Darwin never taught one thing that was contrary to the Bible. The Bible says nothing of chemistry, physics, biology, or your pet peeve, evolution... it doesn't list the steps for creating antibiotics, nuclear power plants, genetically engineered corn, or satellites. It does not give us a history of the formation of atoms and molecules, eukaryotes, dinosaurs, or Neanderthals.
The Bible is at worst a mere myth, and AT BEST, an incomplete and horribly poor desciption of the universe and its wonders, (perfect indeed). Stop blaming Darwin for that.
Blame the author. He is the one who screwed up.
Aww, thank you so very much, PZ.
I glanced at that Shelley's blog and now my eyeballs are bleeding!
"We conservatives have grown accustomed to liberal activist judges perverting justice for their own evil ends"
Good. Then STFU.
Oh, and while I'm at it - NYAH NYAH NYAH NYAH NYAH
Y'all just go ahead and mock and blaspheme. Because when the Rapture comes all of your electric cars and GPS and internet and neno-whatever ain't gonna mean diddlysquat. You ain't never gonna learn how to make God in a test tube or figure out how to teleport into Heaven...or outta Hell, for that matter. All your gum flapping ain't gonna create a breeze that's gonna cool down Hell one single degree. And them snazzy microfiber pants ain't gonna keep the flames off of you niether.
God is Love!
Billy Bob Neck
Teleport into heaven ...cool I should get rid of the electric car.
1. The Rapture isn't coming.
2. I can't make God in a test tube, or the Easter Bunny, or Santa Claus, etc. etc.
3. There is no Heaven
4. There is no Hell.
5. Microfiber is not fire proof.
OK... Have a nice day.
Amen, Mr Neck.
You liberals won't be laughing when the Lamb comes down in a BLAZE OF GLORY, wielding the sword of truth and justice and casts ye all into the fire! NO! Your whiney, mocking bleats will be translated unto wailings and gnashings of teeth. Laugh now. Repent later. That's the way you want it isn't it? But God asks you to go to Him now. And that means now. Not tomorrow. Not after you've finished your fair trade organic decaf mocha latte. Now means now. He sent His son to die and yet you mock His servants and deny the truth that they tell? Shame on you. Kent Hovind will not be in jail long. I prophesy that for you now.
By the power of the Holy Spirit, Dr. Hovind will do to prison what he did to jail: Turn it into another "Paul the Apostle" experience, winning the lost inmates and guards to Jesus Christ, the Savior we must ALL have if we want eternal life. Dr. Hovind truly is an "ambassador in chains."
Philippians 1:12-14 - "Now I want you to know, brothers, that what has happened to me has really served to advance the gospel. As a result, it has become clear throughout the whole palace guard and to everyone else that I am in chains for Christ. Because of my chains, most of the brothers in the Lord have been encouraged to speak the word of God more courageously and fearlessly."
Yours in Christ,
Tristan
Wow - an infestation of loons....
Tristan, to be convincing you must first acknowledge that your hero broke the law, as Jesus himself explains (by inference). If he can't see fit to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's as commanded by Jesus Christ, you're just another duped fool for holding him up as a hero.
Gnaw on the remains of your envy somewhere else.
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I'm predicting it will be at least several years. Is that "long"?
I remember the prison sojourn of Jim Bakker, and how news reports said he cleaned toilets for ten cents a day. I'd think even a few weeks of that would seem very, very long.
Not sure what makes me think this, but I believe Tristan Shuddery's comment to be a parody.
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Blake, Tristan, and the rest of you...
Assuming you're actually serious, how about some evidence for these assertions?
Kristine - How long have you and God been dating?
We're just friends. :)
Hey Kristine, if you and God ARE dating, keep in mind that you can have sex with him and still be a virgin.
All He ever does is weep on my shoulder, eat my nachos, and fall asleep in front of the television. And he has bad B.O. But thanks for the advice anyway!
P.S. Sorry for you religious nuts, you're gonna be real disappointed when you finally meet the Big G. Hopefully you can make good nachos, or he won't have anything to do with you.
Some of these folks are "crossing over" from the Shelley the Republican site. Tristan is one of them. I believe that Billy Bob Neck and Sam Johnston are others. STR is a satire site like Jon Swift's blog - but its hard to tell from the stories there (Republican views are getting VERY hard to satirize effectively because they keep staking out positions that are more horrible than the last. Some of the stuff on STR is horribly, horribly over the top crazy, yet NONE of it even comes close to Dinesh D'Souza's latest book that basically says that the terrorists were right in attacking us on 9/11 and he's not writing satire. I don't envy Stephen Colbert his job lately).
Blake, on the other hand, I'm not sure about. Scarily enough he might be real. (Again, its tough to satirize people who are so crazed).
Stephen Colbert had Dinesh D'Souza over the coals and back again. I can't remember him ever being so mean to a guest (not even O'Reilly and he did get a couple digs in there too) but this guy really deserved it.
Shorter Hank Fox:*
"Some robs you with a pistol/And some with a fountain pen."
*Shorter long Hank Fox, to be specific
Yes, it is getting harder all the time to tell the satires from the wingnuttisms. Or the headlines from the satires, come to think of it.
Not that it matters, but I ran into this site by looking up the sentencing for Kent. Viewing most of the material he presents, one would understand where he comes from-from not paying the taxes. He sais ( and I asume it's true) that a church is not part of the state unless contracted with it than it has to play by its rules.
Many evolutionist say they have morals for them to not be "bad" people, but looking over these comments I can tell ya -aswell as you can tell yourselves- that this isn't the case.
I'm not sure if many of you people's dislikes are coming from your oposition to Kent's beliefs or from him not paying taxes to the goverment for his ministry that wasn't even part of the government.
If your not liking Kent comes from his beliefs then shame on you. If it was some person known for their atheist beliefs in an unfair trial such as Kent's (the ruling from the jury can -and probly did- very well come down to the oposision of their beliefs), I would only hope the best rode for that person.
10 years out of the 280 maximum to me doesn't sound very bad lol. Intead of thinking if he's gonna get sexed up you could also "think on the bright side of your lfie" I mean if you enjoy reading then TaTah there ya have it.
If Hovind doesn't accept that his church is part of the USA why did he accept the USA's money?
(the ruling from the jury can -and probly did- very well come down to the oposision of their beliefs)
Liar.
Uh. Paying taxes isn't a matter of being "part of the government." The engineering firm I work for isn't "part of the government," yet it pays taxes. My family isn't "part of the government," yet we pay taxes. You presumably aren't "part of the government," but you had better be paying your taxes. This is because all these entities use government services which are paid for with tax money. Why should a church, which also depends on government services, be any different?
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Wanna bet every time Kent Hovind mailed a letter, he put a United States Postal Service stamp on it?
I agree with Azkyroth: You use the service, you pay for it, just like everybody else.
Kent Hovind accepted -- among many other services -- the use of public roads, generously supplied police and fire protection, the regulation of food and water purity, and most importantly, safety against attack by the militant Tierra del Fuegan invaders.
Should he get an EXTRA privilege the rest of us don't have -- the right to get all those things FREE?
Hovind basically said "I don't have to pay for that stuff. My religion gives me immunity."
Turned out he was wrong. And now he'll have to spend some good portion of the next ten years in prison.
Anyway you slice it, that's a bit funny. Add in the fact that the man is a heinous liar, a perverter of true things, a vicious parasite on innocents, and an arrogant, smug little snot, and it becomes one of those hilarious tales of true justice: the 10-year-old bully holding down a 6-year-old, sneering "What are you gonna do NOW?" a half-second before a small fist sails up and impacts with his nose.
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Ant : If your not liking Kent comes from his beliefs then shame on you.
I (and I would guess most people here) don't like Hovind because he's a lying, anti-semitic, fraudulent scumbag.
If you are willing to support those things just because the perpetrator says "Jesus" a lot, then you are the one that should be deeply, deeply ashamed.
Actually, Graculus, Kent Hovind is not an anti-Semite, as he claims to have several dear Jewish friends. The only reason why he sells copies of "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" is a genuine plan for taking over the world he wants to share with his customers
Billy Bob Neck's comment is clearly satire again.
I might have to disagree with you PZ.
Hovind's supporters prayed and they got their answer: God said 10 years in prison! I think this goes in the column of evidence for a supreme being. Along with tornadoes hitting trailer parks. ;-)
Jo Hovind will go down to the pen with a recording device, and show up at the engagement with a recording of 'Dr.' Dino . Or some rough equivalent thereof.
(note: I originally posted this comment in the wrong thread.)
You liberals won't be laughing when the Lamb comes down in a BLAZE OF GLORY, wielding the sword of truth and justice and casts ye all into the fire! NO! Your whiney, mocking bleats will be translated unto wailings and gnashings of teeth. Laugh now.
Thank you! I believe I shall!
Hank Fox asked:
It's not a foregone conclusion. After all, he could have written by W.A.S.T.E.
Azkyroth- I would tell you to look up the information but you would probly say you don't care. If thats the case then you shouldn't be commenting on somthing you arn't knowlagable about. But I dont know if thats the acse or not. If you know about the ammendments/ constitution you should know that the church isn't part of the state. You mentioned a business or firm but you could argue thiss till your face turns purple; the church isn't a business and ones like I said the churches that arn't contracted with the government DO NOT rely on the government. There arn't many aound that don't rely on the govt. and Kent's is one of them.
You mentioned a business or firm but you could argue thiss till your face turns purple; the church isn't a business and ones like I said the churches that arn't contracted with the government DO NOT rely on the government.
If Hovind's church caught on fire, the fire department would put it out. If Hovind's church was besieged by murderous atheist liberals, the police department would come to rescue him. If Hovind's church was attacked by a Venezuelan military squadron, the US military would respond. If Hovind's church was preaching (as opposed to actually carrying out) a radical anti-taxation platform, the US would (even post-Patriot Act...probably) refrain from jailing or deporting him as an undesirable, because he has rights as a citizen. Government services, same as any firm or business gets.
Ant:
I'm calling your bluff. What should I be looking up?
And how is a church not a business? The fact that the product they're selling is conspicuously vaporware and their charlatanry is obvious to those who aren't already devoted customers doesn't change the fact that they promise something in exchange for devotion of time and money on the part of those to whom the thing is promised, and their goal is to maximize their accumulation of resources (money, but especially power).
And how do you figure that a church which accepts donations in the form of federally specified and minted legal tender, uses the civil courts to address disputes, is protected by fire departments and the police, relies on building code enforcement, standardized units of measure, and licensing to ensure that it isn't built in such a way that it crashes down on its worshippers' heads, uses the government postal system for communication, and has the power to create a legally binding marriage contract "doesn't rely on the government?"
Actually, he was trying to avoid that particular one - which is why Dinoland got shut down.
10 More Years! 10 More Years! 10 More Years!
Ant, you fail to comprehend that, among other things, Kent Hovind did indeed set up a business inside of the US, namely his theme park "Dinoland." He refused to pay for permits to have Dinoland, and has refused to allow safety inspectors to make sure that Dinoland, in fact, claiming that it's a religious institution, despite it clearly being a theme park. He's also refused to pay the income tax with the profits he's made from ticket sales.
I don't know what country you live in says about it, but, in the US, when you set up a theme park and refuse to pay for the appropriate permits, refuse to make sure that all of the safety standards are met, and refuse to pay appropriate taxes, all on the grounds of "religious freedom," you've committed several crimes.
Please explain to us how such actions are not criminal if one is a Christian, as the logic doesn't add up to me.
Stanton beat me to it, but yes, Ant, Hovind was a tax cheat. Dinoland was a business. Not a church. If Disney could just put up crosses here and there and avoid paying taxes, don't you think they would?
Right, Robster.
In other words, Ant, where in the Bible does it say that it's perfectly fine to use God as an aegis for your money?
Oh, I can't resist this:
You liberals won't be laughing when the Lamb comes down in a BLAZE OF GLORY, wielding the sword of truth and justice and casts ye all into the fire!
Sounds like a schoolyard bully decked out in the rainments of a mock King Arthur.
NO! Your whiney, mocking bleats will be translated unto wailings and gnashings of teeth.
I'm sorry: I think you've confused the rams w/the sheep.
You're the sheep. Baaah!
Laugh now.
More medieval rhetoric like that, I'll need to have the stitch in my side looked at by a doctor.
Repent later.
Never.
That's the way you want it isn't it? But God asks you to go to Him now.
Hey, I don't care what the little voice in your head is telling us to do. I'm not doing it.
And that means now. Not tomorrow. Not after you've finished your fair trade organic decaf mocha latte.
Is that on the menu at Starbucks or Tully's? Thanks for the tip. I'll give it a try.
Now means now.
Hey, you're not my daddy. Come to think of it, neither is the voice in your head.
He sent His son to die and yet you mock His servants and deny the truth that they tell?
Hey, butlers are polite, but not long on info.
Shame on you.
Oh yeah, I'm ashamed all righty: I don't hear the whisper of old ghosts telling me what to do, because I have a mind of my own.
Kent Hovind will not be in jail long. I prophesy that for you now.
What else does the magic 8 ball tell you? Can I get some lotto numbers?
As far as I know, Mr.Hovind allows to recopy his video seminars free of charge... What kind of profits are you guys talking about? Dr. Hovind never have taught "prosperity Gospel". While the government officially supports evolution and taxes people to teach evolution at schools, God's people, and only His people support the Creation Science (how the Lord was creating the earth within six days.)
You, those who mock Hovind and the Spirit that the Lord put on Him, are ignorant of God's ways and of His power. Was the crowd rejoicing after they crusified Jesus Christ? Don't you act like them, who crucified Christ?
Have you deeply studied Hovind's teaching? I doubt it! I live in the post Soviet country; I know what consequences were in the Soviet Country of Ukraine with the atheistic mentality that the leaders had... Read about millions of Ukrainians that were starved to death by Soviet leaders who welcomed Darwinism and evolution into School system...
It is painful to hear that you do not see the price we pay for supporting evolution theory in our schools.
May the Lord open your eyes and ears and transform your cynic herats into the heart of Jesus Christ. May the Lord find you and give you His revelation of what is going on.
Sincerely,
Inna from Ternopil, Ukraine.
Actually, the majority of Christians worldwide support evolution. Even here the majority of sects support it at least provisionally. This is because the overwhelming mass of the evidence also clearly supports it. Those who deny it are either ignorant (whether through the deceit of others or their own negligence) or have already made up their minds and don't want to be confused by the facts.
No, we don't. For one thing, we're verifiably real, and observing an event that is attested to by sources other than a handful of works of dubious authorship written most of a century after Jesus' alleged death with an obvious ulterior motive. For another, we're glad that Hovind finally faces justice because he has harmed people by robbing society of the tax money that supports its infrastructure and by teaching materially false and logically indefensible ideas as fact to the gullible. And if Hovind allows people to copy his video seminars for free, that's mildly surprising but since that's hardly the only activity he's engaged in it's of little weight. Companies don't charge motorists for viewing their billboards, either.
Stalinism, while technically atheistic in that it does not promote belief in a god, is no less dogmatic than fundamentalist Christianity, cultivated a god-like worship of the human Stalin and the Party, created a totalitarian police state, and replaced evolutionary theory as it was understood by the scientific community at the time with the theories of Lysenko--a crisis from which Soviet biology still has not recovered. These are all things that few if any atheists as the term is usually meant would support--and the tendency of states founded on dogmatic belief systems to commit horrendous atrocities is well-attested to by the historical record and a surprise to no one who's been paying attention. Stalinism is not representative of atheism. Stalinism is not relevant to the arguments of most of atheism. Got it?
Now then, I haven't "deeply studied" Hovind's teachings, for the same reason I haven't "deeply swam" in rain puddles. I've read statements of his and read the accounts of people who've been to his theme park and heard him speak, however. If there's something of merit he's saying that isn't being passed on, please do enlighten us rather than flapping your arms and crowing these meaningless platitudes.
And what price would that be? The enormous strides forward we've made in the biological and medical fields in the past century? The practical applications of the above, some of which, if you've been lucky enough to have access to them, more than likely saved your life? The numerous tangential discoveries, such as the use of genetic algorithms to develop new product designs? Please, enlighten us.
I've read much of the Bible and remain unconvinced. Clearly the Lord has not opened my eyes or ears, nor transformed my heart into a cheesy, glowing, anatomically incorrect two-lobed thing encircled with thorns. Who are you to question why your God doesn't want me to believe in him?
I've referanced this before (and I'll probably do so again)
but there are fairly clear requirements published by the IRS about taxing churches and other religious organizations.
http://www.irs.gov/charities/churches/index.html
To change these requirements there are really only two options; successfully argue in a court of law that these requirements need to be changed, or convince enough federal level legislators that these requirements need to be changed. (I suppose that the executive branch could order these requirements be not enforced.... That would lead to some interesting debates.)
As Kent Hovind learned, just refusing to abide by these requirements will get you in trouble.
Wow. I go away for a week on a business trip and I miss all the fun.
And all the Hovind loving fundies too!
Ten years!!!! Woooo Hoooo!!!!
Inna, please do note that Mr Hovind was arrested, tried and convicted for the crimes of conspiring to avoid paying his income taxes for several years, including the taxes from the profits of his Dinoland theme park, not paying for permits to have his theme park, and refusing to see that the safety standards in his theme park are up to date.
Do also note that Mr Hovind's excuse for all of his actions was that he is a servant of God.
The people of this blog aren't mocking Mr Hovind because he is a servant of God. They mock him because he uses his faith in God as an aegis for his fortunes. Last I read, the Bible frowns on the use of God as an aegis for His servants' fortunes.
If I'm wrong, please correct me.
Have you deeply studied Hovind's teaching? I doubt it!
You mean like where he claimed that Tyrannosaurus Rex breathed fire?
I'm not sure if it's really possible to 'study' that one. Have you?
I know what consequences were in the Soviet Country of Ukraine with the atheistic mentality that the leaders had... Read about millions of Ukrainians that were starved to death by Soviet leaders who welcomed Darwinism and evolution into School system...
While it was beyond inexcusable what Stalin did to the Ukraine, it's utterly irrelevant to the issue of whether Hovind is a criminal, whether he has any idea what he's talking about, or whether creationism should be taught in American schools. If you think that teaching of evolution in schools causes genocide, you have serious problems with maintaining rational thought.
It is painful to hear that you do not see the price we pay for supporting evolution theory in our schools.
What price would that be? Genocide? I invite you to show us the causal connection between teaching evolution and genocide. And 'during Stalin's regime, when evolution was taught in the schools, genocide took place' does not constitute a causal connection, as I hope you understand.
Inna:
Read about millions of Ukrainians that were starved to death by Soviet leaders who welcomed Darwinism and evolution into School system...
Er, ummm...that was Lysenkoism, which was a variant of Lamarckianism, was it not? Not...QUITE the same thing.
http://www.answers.com/topic/lysenkoism
As for 'studying Hovind deeply,' well, 1st off, evolution's a scientific work in progress, it's not a dogma, nor a religion. Anyone who claims the earth's only 6000 years old, & mankind walked w/the dinosaurs, contrary to any & all evidence that says otherwise, is a dink. That simple. There's no nice way to say 'stupid'.
2nd off, it gets results. 3rd off, denying all the forensic evidence isn't a sign of divine providence, or symbolic of some martyrdom complex: it's delusional.
There's no gentle way of putting it. Sorry.
what i don't get is why the hovinds don't want to pay taxes. i'd think it would make them very happy to know that their tax dollars were being used to blow pieces off the innocent babies and other nonbelievers in iraq.
The only reason why he sells copies of "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" is a genuine plan for taking over the world he wants to share with his customers
And that, folks, is all you need to know about Hovind's supporters. They willingly believe that a century old Czarist forgery is a genuine plan for taking over the world.
The stupid, it burns us.
You mean like where he claimed that Tyrannosaurus Rex breathed fire?
Ummm...that was Duane Gish.
Hi Gang,
I have spent the last month reading hundreds of comments on the Internet about Kent Hovind. First let me give my perspective. I not only know Kent but was his best buddy in college back in the early seventies.
Back then Kent was a very bright energetic young man. We both worked our way through college employed by General Motors in Pontiac Michigan. My wife Karen and Jo both worked together at a church as secretaries.
Kent graduated from college in three years and after college we parted company and had little contact until early in 2000. I was not aware of his world wide ministry or his tax problems until a few years ago.
First let me comment about his tax problems. For those of you who are old enough to remember that in the middle eighties there were several groups coming out of Colorado promoting a grass roots tax rebellion. This was the period that Kent was a student at Patriot University in Colorado. I believe this is were he began to formulate his ideas about the IRS and that the income tax is an illegal tax. You see Kent does not just believe His ministry should not have to pay taxes but "no" American should pay them!
Is he guilty of Tax evasion? Under the current system YES! What makes me sad is that if he really wanted to he could have used his influence to try to change the laws like the fair tax advocates are doing. He is also guilty of the same mistake Jim Baker of PTL made. Kent was accountable to no one. When Jim Baker had some body tell him no they were fired.
Under the current tax laws the only tax that churches and non profit organizations can escape are property taxes. All employees are still required to file. The only exception is that a ordained minister from a legitimate organization can declare a vow of poverty and not pay into Social Security on ministry income only. Every Church I ever worked for gave me a W-2. So Kent's claim that because he operates a Ministry he is free from federal income tax is misleading.
Now let me talk about his views on Creation. Yes I am one of those ignorant fundamentalist who actually have the audacity to take the Bible literally. So I suspect that many of you on this form will give me grief for that. It does not matter that I have a college degree and a diploma in a scientific discipline.
May I remind you that if you read your history books it was the fundamentalist Christians that made up the majority of the first Pilgrims. We are also the ones who founded public education and most of the older Universities in our country started as places to train ministers.
I would like to suggest that in America we have the right to express our belief's no matter how insane they are. Just turn on the television and you will see what I mean. I do not subscribe to a lot of what Kent taught but I defend his right to say it and let people make up their own minds.
I could give you a whole list of people who hold multiple accredited degrees as attorney's scientists etc... who used to hold to evolution and now are creationists. I think it is time on both sides to stop the personal attacks and stick to the issues.
If you want to put your faith in the "Gospel According To Darwin" and worship at the altar of "The Origin of Species" go for it.Since none of us were there in the beginning, no matter what evidence we prsent it boils down to faith. I'll take my chances with the Bible. That does not render me intellectually impotent.
There are honest intelligent people on both sides of this debate. Let's treat each other with respect and at the end of the day make up our mind which side we wish to embrace.
Kent will pay for his crimes and for the choices he made. As his brother in Christ I have a duty to pray for him and also for those who want to deny him his right to present his ideas. I thank God that we have many fine creationist out there who play by the rules and treat those on the other side of the debate with respect.
I pray Kent will repent and apologize to all those he hurt and like Jim Baker will come out of prison a better person. Thank God he gives us all many chances after we fall to get back up and learn from our mistakes.
Doc Mike, please do not arrogantly assume that we "worship" Darwinism.
The theory of Evolution happens to be the best explanation for the diversity of life as we know it today.
If the Bible literally says that the World as we know it is only 6,000 years old, then, what date does the Bible give for the day God created the Earth, and what date does the Bible give for the day God caused the Great Flood?
That is a great question. YEC's base their estimation on the age of the earth from the genealogies listed in Genesis and other places. We do not have an exact date just as we do not have an exact date of Christ's birth.
The evolutions claim the earth to be millions of years old and offer no exact date of origin either. No matter how old you think the earth is you have to come to grips with the question was there a creator or did it just happen.
I applaud everyone on this blog for participating because it shows they are thinking seeking people. I have been studying theology, philosophy, sociology, epistemology, science etc... for over thirty years.
If you have chosen the evolutionist explanation for the origin of life than I have no problem with you preaching your doctrine. Ultimately faith is involved with both points of view because none of us were there when it happened.
So many people Phooh Phooh faith as something that only weak minded people exercise. All of us no matter what our view on God exercise faith every day. Driving your car, getting on an airplane or any number of other daily activities.
Since parts of the Bible have been preserved for over four thousand years and Darwin's theories have been around less than two hundred, my money is on the Bible. That is a reasonable position to hold. Because some Christians are enthusiastic about what they believe should not discredit them. The problem with some Christians is that they have not taken the time to study not just what they believe but why. I have done that and so far have come to the conclusion that the Bible coupled with the complexity of the universe offers the best explanation.
I do not subscribe to the idea that because you believe in evolution you are an agnostic or atheist just as I do not believe all democrats are unpatriotic. I judge each person as an individual.
The bottom line for me is this. If the Bible is just a bunch of fairy tales and I die and there is no heaven, I have lost nothing, but if it is true, I have gained everything. I do not think that is an unreasonable position to hold!
I don't care to hypothesize about the other blog patrons' spiritual habits, as that would be rude, but, I, personally, do not subscribe to a literal interpretation of the Bible in order to solve my non-spiritual needs. Quite frankly, it's my experience that Creationists appear to have no interest whatsoever in learning about Life as We Know It, as there are perhaps only 3 Creationists in the United States, if not the entire Western World, who know what a placoderm was.
I've asked dozens of Creationists about what the Bible says about extinct animals like placoderms, or trilobites, but they never deign to answer my questions.
In fact, one Creationist told me that learning about prehistoric animals is an affront to God because, apparently, not specifically mentioning God in every page threatens everyone's spiritual wellbeing, nevermind that according to this train of logic, my book of cheesecake recipes is also an affront to God because it doesn't mention that God makes cheesecakes so tasty.
Is that what all Creationists think?
Since parts of the Bible have been preserved for over four thousand years and Darwin's theories have been around less than two hundred, my money is on the Bible. That is a reasonable position to hold.
No, it isn't. Why does simply being old make something true?
The Hindu scriptures are older than the Bible. Since relative age seems to count so much, will you be switching to that religion?
The Canadian Shield is older than any of those things. I'm making the Canadian Shield my next religion. ( And don't even mention the microwave background radiation. It's immoral.)
To you who think God does not answer REpublican's prayers anymore: You ar foolish to make such mockery. Has it not occured to you that God has His own purpose for Kent Hovind being sent to prison for 10 years? Do you not know that God can work all things out for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose? Kent bemoans his sentence, and why not? He is to be apart from family and friends for a long time. But lets not forget that the man who wrote most of the letters in the New Testament was one who was sentence to prison himself. His most powerful letters were written while in confinement. He was jugded to be a criminal too...Apostle Paul.
Oh and lets not forget the One who was condemned to death on the cross. His crime was that He claimed He was the Son of God. He knew what would happen as He made those claims, but He did it anyway so He could die on the cross for you.
Yeah, laugh if you want, but He did if for you. And now He sits at the right hand of the Father to intercede for you.
You can believe it or not. So what if you do not believe it? No problem. Just be sure you never die.
Strawman. There's no evidence God ever answered anyone's prayers.
Has it not occured to you that God has His own purpose for Kent Hovind being sent to prison for 10 years?
To punish his stupid slimy dishonest ass? Works for me.
So God actually MADE Kent violate all those laws? How odd,
Kent bemoans his sentence, and why not? He is to be apart from family and friends for a long time. But lets not forget that the man who wrote most of the letters in the New Testament was one who was sentence to prison himself. His most powerful letters were written while in confinement. He was jugded to be a criminal too...Apostle Paul.
So future editions of the Bible will feature Kent's letters from prison? I suggest some of his writings about fire-breathing vegetarian dinosaurs. They're the funniest.
Yeah, laugh if you want, but He did if for you. And now He sits at the right hand of the Father to intercede for you.
You can believe it or not. So what if you do not believe it? No problem. Just be sure you never die.
Splendid. Sounds like you finally have conclusive proof of why your religious beliefs are true while those of everyone who disagrees with you is wrong. About time. Please share?
Hey, Doc:
The evolutions claim the earth to be millions of years old and offer no exact date of origin either
Ballpark is 4.5 billion years.
May I remind you that if you read your history books it was the fundamentalist Christians that made up the majority of the first Pilgrims.
& may I remind YOU, that they lived in Amsterdam unmolested for 12 years? & that the Spaniards had settled in America prior to their arrival? & that there was a New Amsterdam prior to their arrival?
I have been studying theology, philosophy, sociology, epistemology, science etc... for over thirty years.
You hide it very well.
If you have chosen the evolutionist explanation for the origin of life than I have no problem with you preaching your doctrine.
You seem to specialize in weary old canards. Pascal's wager, argument from tradition, tu quoque, etc.
If you paid money for your education, I suggest you get a refund.
Bea:
but He did it anyway so He could die on the cross for you
Oh, so he sacrificed himself to himself for a mistake HE made?
I dont quite feel like refuting 10 comments XD but I can tell you this; If my lemonade stand (dont laugh) caught on fire, the fire department would put the fire out for me. Do I need to pay taxes on my lemonade stand? I certainly do not. Now I know, you know aswell, that what we think is mainly what we believe (on this matter and the jury aswell) and I for one am not knowlagible for every single law.-------------Azkyroth The "theories" you consider facts -for me- deeply discredits you. If it were facts, it is then what the scientific method would then lable a "law" it is only what you "believe". As far as laws go, have fun trying to come up with more laws than fingers you can hold up. People of this reasoning arn't wurth the debate/reasoning. Like i said in my very first coment I only came upon this looking for Kents sentincing. So if any of you would like to comment for the reason of self indulgance or perhaps you think others would like to suckle of what you have to say go get um, but I won't. I wish every ( based on your indivudual belief of joy) the best. Azkyroth you have nothing to lose (besides time, but my guess since your time spent on this site alone seems to be of great amounts what more is there to loose) for real tho check out Kents stuff after you watch the first couple seminars if not for you do it for your dear friend Ant. Cheers. GL
Yes I am from the old school. Everything you have ever learned is repetition of ideas and sayings from the past. If it is reliable information it will stand the test of time. What I do not understand is that the people who trumpet free speech and pluralism are some of the same people who want Christians to shut up. You can't have it both ways.
As a Christian I will concede the fact that there is a possibility that the Bible is a myth. I am willing to abandon my faith if someone could show me hard evidence. You accuse me of not being very bright. You have that right but I don't think it is very useful.
Whether you believe it or not I have read hundreds of books outside the Bible including "The Origin of Species." I have studied the great philosophers like Socrates, Plato, Hume, Sartre etc... I am also a Gemologist and have some expertise in identifying gem stones and how they are formed.
My point is that I have not come to my decision about creation and the Bible lightly. Some of you who make fun of people like me have developed your prejudices not from careful study but because some professor somewhere told you that fundamentalist Christians are not only ignorant but dangerous. I have studied the skeptics and have not found a reason to abandon my faith.
If you have studied both sides of this issue with an open mind and have come to a different conclusion that is your right. So let us respect each other for seeking the truth. As I said in my last post. Frankly I am energized when people challenge my ideas. It makes me dig deeper. That's what these forums should be about. Not personal attacks against people who disagree with your view point.
It would be refreshing to read someday a respected evolutionist admitting like I am willing to that just like creationism, there is a possibility that evolution could be wrong. There is at least a 50% chance! We will find out someday but for now bring it on, I can take it!
Yes I am from the old school. Everything you have ever learned is repetition of ideas and sayings from the past. If it is reliable information it will stand the test of time.
Unless it's legislated, which your religion was from the time of Theodosius till today.
Face it: christianity was in its death throes, until Constantine came along.
What I do not understand is that the people who trumpet free speech and pluralism are some of the same people who want Christians to shut up. You can't have it both ways.
If that were so, none of your comments would show up here, would they? I have no problem w/your opinion: you have every right to it. Just as I have every right to call it foolish, if I deem it so.
As a Christian I will concede the fact that there is a possibility that the Bible is a myth. I am willing to abandon my faith if someone could show me hard evidence. You accuse me of not being very bright. You have that right but I don't think it is very useful.
Well, how many skeptic sites do you hang around? Do you approach it w/a presupposition that it's right/wrong, or do you simply test the waters?
There's ample archeological evidence (& the lack thereof) to ascertain that your book is a fabrication (yeah, it's a compilation of many books: I'll call it a 'book' for now).
It would be refreshing to read someday a respected evolutionist admitting like I am willing to that just like creationism, there is a possibility that evolution could be wrong.
Well, it ain't happened yet. Even though creationists have trumpeted the doom of 'evolutionary theory' since 1871.
My point is that I have not come to my decision about creation and the Bible lightly.
You know what? Neither did I.
Some of you who make fun of people like me have developed your prejudices not from careful study but because some professor somewhere told you that fundamentalist Christians are not only ignorant but dangerous. I have studied the skeptics and have not found a reason to abandon my faith.
Well, I 'came' to atheism thru careful study...drum roll, please!...of the bible itself. No evolution: no college professor pissing in my ear about those 'durned fundie nutjobs'.
I listened to both sides of the discussion.
Logic won.
& honestly? Fundie xtians are constantly proving themselves ignorant & dangerous, on an almost daily basis. Maybe not you, but 1 only has to watch the news, & some fresh new hell pops into view.
Y'all lost your free pass when those jets smashed into the WTC. I don't care if they were Muslim or not: it's a red flag, so get used to being under the microscope for some time.
Speaking of the test of time...
Back when Darwin 1st came out w/his work (he was a Paley fan prior, didja know that), 100% of the scientists were creationists. Now, about 1%. How's THAT for an argument from numbers?
Evolution's here to stay. It's the backbone of biology - it enables us to engineer food, all sorts of agriculture, antibiotics - you'd be surprised how much of it impacts a modern person's life.
& as for Hovind: he's a quack, & a doofus. There are no better words.
You'd be better off retrofitting your faith around evolution, rather than denying essential evidence that's nigh well irrefutable.
As refuting even one seems to be beyond your ability, that's fortunate.
What's your point? A lemonade stand is a money-making enterprise set up with an intent to appeal to children and to the desperate. Are you actually admitting that this describes churches as well?
Not only are you not knowledgeable about every single law, but you are apparently utterly ignorant of what "law" and "theory" even MEAN in the context of science. A "law" is a statement of fact. "If you do X, Y happens" is a law. A "theory" is an EXPLANATION of an observed fact. There is no such thing as "only a theory" in the context of science; theories are the ultimate goal of science. As for scientific laws, sure, I can come up with more than I have fingers off the top of my head: the law of gravitation, the law of general relativity, the law of special relativity, Newton's three laws of motion, the three laws of thermodynamics, the law of superposition. This isn't even close to exhaustive. It would seem that you are not knowledgeable about ANY single law.
We shall see.
I'm having difficulty reconciling this with your adherence to a belief system that stipulates that nonbelievers are going to hell and your arrogant and spiteful tone above and earlier.
Read a few chapters of Origin of Species and I'll consider it.
And no one seems interested in telling me what the Bible says about placoderms and trilobites.
Do Creationists really hate learning and knowledge that much?
Doc:
and
You bring in a variant of pascals wager and trump it with bad mathematics.
First off, your loss/gain decision is based on the flawed assumption that the Christian God is the only option. What if Islam is the "one true faith" and your belief have cost you everything? Add in to that, any deity which does demand faithful worship (and is omniscient) is not going to look favourably on some one who worships based on this reasoning.
As for the "more than 50%" thing. This is also flawed in many ways. Creationism is not the "alternative" argument to evolution. It is possible that evolutionary theory will be developed in the future - all science goes through this process (or do you think Newtons "laws" of Gravity are more fundamental than the theory of general relativity?) - but this does not dismiss the current validity of evolution. More importantly, creationism is not science. It makes no testable predictions and answers nothing new.
You say you are "old school," well so am I but my old school education was based on solid principles. May I respectfully suggest you go back to your school books and review the lessons.
And no one seems interested in telling me what the Bible says about placoderms and trilobites.
Let me take a stab at it: Noah forgot to include them on the ark and so they all drowned in the Flood.
Did I guess right?
Sure, why not?
Reward yourself with a raisin cookie.
You can question my faith and my views on evolution but to lump fundamentalist Christians in with the terrorists is completely over the line and proves that your criticisms are rooted in hate not honest debate.
Let me educate you about about radical Muslims. They have been killing Christians, Jews and others they consider infidels for centuries. Back in the early part of the twentieth century many of my father's family were killed by the Turks and thousands more fled their homeland to escape sure death. It was called the Armenian Genocide. More Armenians were killed by the Turks than Jews killed by Hitler.
What was the reason for the Genocide. The Armenians were one of the first nations to translate the Bible into their language and embrace Christianity. Are things any better today? Hardly. Christians and Jews are still being persecuted and killed by radical Muslims all over the world. Some of the most intense persecution is taking place in Indonesia. But you will never hear about it from our liberal media because they do not care. They only get rattled when someone goes after them.
Many of the fire fighters, policeman, and ordinary citizens who came to the rescue on 9-11 were Bible believing Christians. Many churches were opened to house and feed people. Churches from all over America sent supplies and man power and money to New York City. The same was true when Katrina hit New Orleans.
Christians are always some of the first to give and serve their country and I highly resent the comparison of Christians to terrorists. It seems you and others do not know what a fundamentalist Christian is. They are individuals who take the Bible literally and try to live out the Love of Christ in their life.
Yes we had the Crusades but every honest theologian and Christian condemn them and as far as I know they were never repeated. Many people today make the mistake in thinking that because Christians try to convert people that somehow we want to establish a state religion. First of all we can't even get the Baptist's to agree on certain issues, so relax. We just want the freedom to vote for the laws we believe will make a better country just like everyone else. That is not a crime!
I also resent some of the comments of people on this form who claim to be Christians and show contempt for those who are not believers. Yes we believe that the God of the Bible is the only true God and that Jesus is His son and He died on the cross for the sin of all men. But we are to present this Gospel (good news) in a loving and non threatening way. Our job is to share, it is up to God to enlighten.
Most Christians in the world live like that. We to have our crazies who make the rest of us look bad. I used to live in the Detroit area where the largest Muslim population lived. The majority of them are peace loving people but we only hear about the fanatics so we think they are all like that.
So give me a break and keep your anger to yourself and stick to issues. I have not attacked anyone on this form for disagreeing with me. Debate is healthy. If the evolutionist believe that evolution is the truth to embrace then tone down the hate speech and maybe people will start to listen to what you are saying. The same goes for the Christians. Just a thought!
Nice selective use of facts there, Mike.
We can't debate with christians like you because anyone who denies the overwhelming evidence for evolution is too stupid or too dishonest to bother with. The real problem with creationists is that they don't even know how to be honest.
Look on the bright side.
At least he didn't lump you in with a certain Christian leader, who, after consultation with 'a higher father', used a seemingly endless series of lies about WMDs and terrorist connections to justify an invasion that has resulted in the deaths of 650,000 people.
You can question my faith and my views on evolution but to lump fundamentalist Christians in with the terrorists is completely over the line and proves that your criticisms are rooted in hate not honest debate.
...& I think you missed my point entirely.
No matter what religion (& history can bear me out on this), religious fanaticism doesn't really seem to have a specific creed. I was pointing to the most recent example, is all. I could point out the ongoing conflict between RC's & Prots in Ireland, but that was a more effective point.
I am certain there are a # of good xtians out there. I know a few. Accusing me of 'hate speech' is a knee-jerk reaction.
I say Man inherited his feral nature from that violent, sloppy, blind process of evolution, not due to some 'original sin'. We are violent: it comes w/this cloak of flesh.
But it's undeniably obvious: religion does NOT lend itself to rationality very well. Whether Muslim, Jew, or xtian. It seems to be tinder on the fire, so to speak.
Yes we had the Crusades but every honest theologian and Christian condemn them and as far as I know they were never repeated.
I'd advise you do a little more historical research. 'A rose by any other name', & all that.
Christians are always some of the first to give and serve their country and I highly resent the comparison of Christians to terrorists. It seems you and others do not know what a fundamentalist Christian is. They are individuals who take the Bible literally and try to live out the Love of Christ in their life.
As are many other religions. Reciprocal altruism is also part of our nature. It doesn't require a faith to be unselfish.
Strange, how secular countries have less instances of 'immoral' behavior than religious ones, too, I might add.
Are religious people bad people? No. People are people, independent of belief systems. Some are sheep, some are rams, some are shepherds.
I tend to be the 2nd.
Oh, & I know all too well what a fundie is. You guys are in the news all the time.
So, Doc Mike, can you tell me why Creationists don't care to learn about arcane animals, such as placoderms, or trilobites?
Explain to me how simple life + millions of years = complicated life. Thermal dynamics and the law of entropy states that matter degrades over time. My first car a 1961 Oldsmobile did not evolve into a Cadillac it turned into a pile of rust.
But even if evolution could explain this (they think they have with transitional fossils etc) It still begs the question. How did that amoeba and the water it came out of and the land it washed up on get there? Ergo the ex-nihilo argument, something came out of nothing.
I believe that God did it. You say you don't believe in God because there is no proof of His existence. What about the claim that Jesus was God and the Savior of the world. First you must deal with the issue of His existence. Every major religion in the world and most of the cults acknowledge Jesus existed. One secular writer said that there are more recovered archaeological writings that Jesus Christ lived than we have that Julius Caesar lived. Our calender divides the centuries by AD and BC using the birth of Christ.
So if Christ lived, was he equal with God the Father? We have three possible explanations about His claim. 1)Jesus could have been a liar. He was a deceiver so therefore cannot be followed today as a good example and teacher as some religions claim. 2)He was a lunatic. He was delusional about coming down from Heaven to save the world from it's sins, and all the stories about His miracles and being our Savior are indeed fairy tales. 3)He was Lord. He was born of a Virgin and was equal with God. According to Jewish law by the mouth of two or more witnesses a event or fact was established. Jesus was seen by hundreds of witnesses in His resurrected body weeks after His Crucifixion and also when He ascended back into Heaven. These accounts were also verified by secular historians like Philo and Josephus. The resurrected Christ is the one event that separates Christianity from all other Religions. It validates the reliability of the Scriptures historically, prophetically, and archeologically.
This is the heart and soul of what a fundamentalist Christian believes. By the way when I use term "fundamentalist" I include evangelical, Catholic and Orthodox Christians who all embrace the "fundamental" doctrines about Christ.
The scenario I just described is why over eighty per cent of Americans describe themselves as Christians. All Christians believe in several fundamental truths. Jesus is God and Savior, and the Bible is God's revelation to man.
So when Genesis 1:1 states that "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." It makes perfect sense for those who believe in God. So we are just being intellectually honest and consistent to stand up for creationism.
I know there are some Christians who believe that God started things off and then evolution took over. That's a subject for another day. But ultimately God had a hand in creating the universe.
So in reality it is the minority of people in this country that believe evolution alone is the explanation for the origin of the universe.
So it seems that the evolutionists are mostly talking to themselves. The same thing is true concerning abortion on demand. If Roe Vs Wade was allowed to be placed on a national ballet it would be revoked and over a million babies a year would live.
So when evolution can answer my initial question than I will talk about Placoderms and Trilobites!
If Roe Vs Wade was allowed to be placed on a national ballet it would be revoked and over a million babies a year would live.
Dance as a form of political protest?
Explain to me how simple life + millions of years = complicated life. Thermal dynamics and the law of entropy states that matter degrades over time. My first car a 1961 Oldsmobile did not evolve into a Cadillac it turned into a pile of rust.
Wow. Sorry, that's a stupid statement all around. A car isn't an organic lifeform, for 1 thing. It's thermodynamics, the 2nd law, & that doesn't operate in a straight line. Some things degrade faster than others: I thought you had 30 years of education. I still recommend you get a refund.
But even if evolution could explain this (they think they have with transitional fossils etc) It still begs the question. How did that amoeba and the water it came out of and the land it washed up on get there? Ergo the ex-nihilo argument, something came out of nothing.
Wow. More foolishness. 1st off, it was an amphibious lifeform that crawled onto the beach, not the amoeba. 2nd off, it's your side that says everything is ex-nihilo, not ours.
I believe that God did it. You say you don't believe in God because there is no proof of His existence. What about the claim that Jesus was God and the Savior of the world. First you must deal with the issue of His existence. Every major religion in the world and most of the cults acknowledge Jesus existed. One secular writer said that there are more recovered archaeological writings that Jesus Christ lived than we have that Julius Caesar lived. Our calender divides the centuries by AD and BC using the birth of Christ.
Allow me a moment: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! These are known as PRATTs - Points refuted a 1000 times. No, we sure DON'T have more 'archeological writings' for jay-sus. Your ignorance is astounding.
So if Christ lived, was he equal with God the Father? We have three possible explanations about His claim. 1)Jesus could have been a liar. He was a deceiver so therefore cannot be followed today as a good example and teacher as some religions claim. 2)He was a lunatic. He was delusional about coming down from Heaven to save the world from it's sins, and all the stories about His miracles and being our Savior are indeed fairy tales. 3)He was Lord. He was born of a Virgin and was equal with God. According to Jewish law by the mouth of two or more witnesses a event or fact was established. Jesus was seen by hundreds of witnesses in His resurrected body weeks after His Crucifixion and also when He ascended back into Heaven. These accounts were also verified by secular historians like Philo and Josephus. The resurrected Christ is the one event that separates Christianity from all other Religions. It validates the reliability of the Scriptures historically, prophetically, and archeologically.
Pulling the old 'trilemma' horse manure again? I say jay-sus never existed, so the point is moot at best.
This is the heart and soul of what a fundamentalist Christian believes. By the way when I use term "fundamentalist" I include evangelical, Catholic and Orthodox Christians who all embrace the "fundamental" doctrines about Christ.
Blah-de-blah-blah-blah. Yeesh, do any of you people EVER come up w/a more original rap? You all sound the same.
The scenario I just described is why over eighty per cent of Americans describe themselves as Christians. All Christians believe in several fundamental truths. Jesus is God and Savior, and the Bible is God's revelation to man.
"If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing," Anatole France.
So when Genesis 1:1 states that "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." It makes perfect sense for those who believe in God. So we are just being intellectually honest and consistent to stand up for creationism.
Christlation: "We don't care WHAT evidence you have otherwise: we'll just deny it!"
I know there are some Christians who believe that God started things off and then evolution took over. That's a subject for another day. But ultimately God had a hand in creating the universe.
Can you prove that? Of course not.
So in reality it is the minority of people in this country that believe evolution alone is the explanation for the origin of the universe.
See quote above. If you don't know the difference between evolution & abiogenesis, then you really ARE undereducated.
So it seems that the evolutionists are mostly talking to themselves. The same thing is true concerning abortion on demand. If Roe Vs Wade was allowed to be placed on a national ballet it would be revoked and over a million babies a year would live.
Can't stay on topic very easily, can you? Bet you blame 'evolution' for all the ills of the world, dontcha? Which Ballet company? Do they pass out pink tutus? Did you pay attention when I informed you that evolution is the backbone of biology, etc? Of course you didn't.
So when evolution can answer my initial question than I will talk about Placoderms and Trilobites!
Hey, I'll get back to you when you get that hand outta your ass, sock puppet.
Your blatherings show you to be remarkably LESS educated than a doctor in the real world.
P.S - what are you a 'doctor' of? You go to the same paper mill that 'doc dufusoid' went to?
It's people like "Doc Mike" that make me think that all Christian Creationists are dishonest, deceitful people who abhor learning. I mean, I'm asking a simple question, and yet, he goes into a nonsensical diatribe, and then demands that I use evolutionary theory to solve the mysteries of the Bible, as well as social ills, much in the same way a crazy person demands that a stock broker fix a car with a box of angel hair pasta. If he doesn't know the answer, then why doesn't he say so?
I bet "Doc Mike" can not pronounce either "placoderm" nor "trilobite," let alone comprehend what either ever were.
Yeah, I hear ya, Stanton.
'Doc' Mike brags about having 30 years of education, & then goes into a copy 'n paste of Hovind & McDowell.
It must be soothing to be so naive. I'd guess it'd be soothing as well, to have someone else spoon-feed my opinions to me. Bet he's never even heard about the tiktaalik. Probably believes that dinosaurs wandered the ME, too.
Although I no longer believe that Kent was correct in all his facts. His ministry gave me enough information to look into evolution and stop believing the lie. I also stopped doing drugs thanks to him.
I can't believe that men rape little kids in Vermont and get less than 6 months and Kent gets 10 years. I do believe that he should have paid his taxes and give to Caesar what is Caesar's but I don't think they should have given him such a ridiculous sentence.
On the bright side, I'm sure that Kent will be able to share the gospel with many convicts and get them saved.
Dear Dr. Myers,
As someone who has studied at eight regionally accredited universities, I am not surprised that Kent Hovind has consistently debated and argued circles around atheistic and agnostic professors of so-called "academia." It is sad that despite their vaunted degrees, these evolutionist "scholars" have repeatedly embarassed themselves by their ignorance and inarticulate responses to Hovind's challenges. Why does Hovind, who obviously has questionable academic credentials, keep coming across as having so much more knowledge about science than these sophisticated professors, despite their advanced, prestigious degrees? I wonder why? It is rather pitiful. A related question. Why have so many science teachers and science professors refused to debate Kent Hovind at all?
Humm. Interesting.
More questions later and more comments--if you will print them. Brent Graves, Ph.D. Cand.
Studied at eight universities? What's the matter with you?
Hovind only comes across as more knowledgeable to people who are profoundly ignorant of the subject. He rattles off a thousand lies in an hour, lies that would take a thousand hours to rebut with any care, and that is why competent people refuse to debate Hovind — it's like diving into sewer sludge.
@:Brent Graves
You asked "Why have so many science teachers and science professors refused to debate Kent Hovind at all?". The answer is quite simple. In debates, Hovind constantly employs a tactic called the Gish Gallop. In this tactic the debater throws out as many nonsensical arguments as he can muster before having to yeild the word. By doing this he leaves his opponent unable to find a suitable starting point from which to formulate a retort.
And in Hovinds case, his complete lack of scientific understanding actually helps him whilst employing the Gish Gallop tactic since his ignorance leaves little common ground between him and his opponent.
Because of this, most serious people find it a futile endevor to try and debate someone like Hovind because they know nothing productive will come of it.
From what I've heard, several people have asked to debate Hovind in written correspondence but Hovind always declines. The Gish Gallop is only useful in live debates.
I don't think Brewkin ever went off the drugs.
Or his brain is so addled he doesn't know fact from fiction.
Just for giggles...
http://onegoodmovemedia.org/movies/0701/hbo012507haggardsex.mov
It makes me cringe... and laugh.
Has anyone of you met Kent Hovind? Have you seen where he lives? Many of you seem to boast his living the high life when he in fact does not. I know. I've seen where he lives. If you want to call his museum and dino-land theme park living the high life then you are simply advertising your ignorance.
What do you think it would cost to run a museum and theme park for years? This man did not live in a mansion. He did not own a Porsche. He's flown around the country but has never owned a private plane. Money spent was all for the purpose of getting his message to people, and maintaining the museum and theme-park.
Throwing his lot in with the likes of the Bakers and Benny Hinn is simply unqualified, and frankly is a testament to ignorance of the highest level.
"Seek and you shall find," doesn't mean sit in front of the TV with a bag of chips. Make an informed opinion is my message.
We have no problem admitting he was a financial disaster.
But he did choose NOT to pay his taxes.
His message was a lie though. Regardless what he spent to spread it.
It still amazes me how so many people try to be judges in this life- judge this...have an opinion on that. When your time comes to leave this life, you will answer to the One Judge...the only Judge..the Lord Jesus Christ. Right now, you have that choice to not believe in Him, to not follow Him, to not obey Him, and to not accept Him as Savior- but know this, you will face Him and give an account of yourselves, and if know Him not as Savior, you will be not be going to Heaven. This life is short, and your time will come. So while so many are worried about what other people do wrong...start to look at your life. You have the choice of spending eternity in Heaven with the Lord Jesus Christ or spending eternity in Hell with satan. It's up to you.
So, in other words, what you're saying is that it's perfectly all right to lie, cheat, and steal in God's name, because God likes money, but, to say that a person is bad because he's lying, cheating and stealing in God's name is wrong, and bad enough to earn a spot in hellfire for all eternity?
"So while so many are worried about what other people do wrong"
Like you...about us...
They're a bunch of snivelling hypocrits, if you ask me.
Ariane.... we're not worried about hell.
And we're quite happy that Hovind can only try to infect the minds of criminals now.
Although it's a bit like adding salt to a wound.
All I have seen here is a bunch of bitter specks of dust on the surface of a slighty larger speck of dust who actually believe their intelligence is measured. For me, there is nothing more foolish than a man who wields in arrogance the recycled knowledge of another man beginning with the very articulation of a man made language such as I am using now. From that point these men yearn forward into oblivion to gain more of nothing because that is exactly what gaining knowledge in this perceived eternal dimension is - nothing. In eternal space and time, nothing can be measured therefore all you gain is nowhere and nothing. That being said, I must side with the creationists. At least they're aware of the futility of the others' "research" and that is actually meaningful. Consider yourself lucky to be human and it's experience. You can watch the show and enjoy it from the audience or you can try to peak behind the curtain the whole time like these idiots on here and miss the whole damn thing. Who is the fool in the end? I'm going to go ahead and say there is a God and I'm going to thank him for the show and that includes the free will and all the mystery it entails. Stop acting like you're beyond human, all of you pompous college turd bags. You regurgitate and recycle and that is all you'll ever be able to do. We're very limited, enjoy.
Both ancient and stupid: respect!
Ancient
You are a fool. An ignorant fool and proud of it. Nothing you say, look around you and see how far we've come in the few short centuries since the enlightenment. Never did your faith or religion or pathetic superstitions ever accomplish even a tenth of what has been done in the last hundred years alone.
Futility? Just how many diseases are just bad memories of times gone by, how many certain deaths are now treatable. How small has our planet become that journeys that once took many months now take mere hours. And you have the hide to say that we've accomplished nothing. You're the arrogant turd bag, arrogant in your ignorance and blind in your assertions that sitting on your arse talking to your imaginary friend has accomplished anything other than your smug delusions of superiority.
For me there is nothing more cowardly than the knownothings that insist it's all pointless and urge everyone to live on the mercies of random events that they call "acts of God" with the hushed tones of village idiots.
Grow up, there is no bogey man out to get you.
So, Ancient, I ask you,So, is what you're saying is that it's perfectly all right to lie, cheat, and steal in God's name, because God likes money, but, to say that a person is bad because he's lying, cheating and stealing in God's name is wrong, and bad enough to earn a spot in hellfire for all eternity?
Yeah, the idea that there is no god is an oldie but a goodie.
Still holds up don't it?
Don't take no college edumicated brain to figyure dat one out.
So what's ancient's gripe? Godlessness is an old idea and only synophants would keep bringing it up?
But his ANCIENT superstition is... right?
Ummm. Yeah. Ok.
To Tenebrous
[Nothing you say, look around you and see how far we've come in the few short centuries since the enlightenment.]
Compared to what, nature? How are you measuring this progress? Your view is so tiny and obscure you don't realize it. These huge advancements you believe we've made are microscopic in a greater view and the problem is that this view itself expands eternally so no accomplishment can really be measured logically. We haven't even come close to reproducing the complicated systems that work together that were already in place long before the word "Science" ever existed. All we do is combine and manipulate material and systems that are already there. We give big names to organisms and discover what is already there to be discovered and feel so intelligent when we do it.
I'm sorry but you're very close minded and you choose to be. You're exactly the same as a religious fanatic. Incapable and unwilling to expand your thoughts, grudgingly and bitterly forsaking truth for your comfort zone. Most of you here are the same.
A lot of you people are exactly like Kent Hovind, you just don't realize it.
To Stanton
On the contrary. I believe in preserving life, safety, happiness, freedom, equality and promoting mercy. This is a delicate system that has been slowly shaped since the beginning of man. I find it annoying to see so many arrogant little college turds trying to do away with all the wisdom of our forefathers, that's all.
Every time I see you pompous punks spreading your wings like a rooster it makes me yawn and pass gas. Microscopic specks.
I'm not interested in an endless contest of vocabulary with egos invested. I just came looking for info on Kent Hovind.
Wow. What an ass.
Someone who thinks a college education isn't asset but a liability.
ANd how are we close minded?
How are we fanatics?
Take your ancient superstitions and go dance around a camp fire or sacrifice a goat or something.
[Wow. What an ass.
Someone who thinks a college education isn't asset but a liability.
ANd how are we close minded?
How are we fanatics?
Take your ancient superstitions and go dance around a camp fire or sacrifice a goat or something.]
Inability to grasp someone's meaning is not something to boast about and the attempt at comedy was awful. Are you of any use at all? No wonder you're so angry, I would be too.
Just another sheep of another color.
[sock puppet much?]
Ancient.
You are obtuse as well. I stated how I measured our achievements. Through progress, real results and outcomes. Compared to what? Compared to the entirety of pre-enlightenment, pre-scientific society. We've never had it so good since we chucked in all that ooga booga supernatural crap.
Your only argument is that since there is still much we don't know then it's pointless to try. Well that's fine, sit on your lazy arse and talk to phantoms. Just don't be surprised when we point and laugh, or get mad when you benefit from our labours while telling us how pointless it is.
Now there is a very important difference between my view and religious fanaticism. My views are based in facts and evidence. I stand by them only to the point that the evidence supports them. Show me some valid evidence to the contrary and I'll adjust my position accordingly. How is that fundamentalist?
You speak to me of comfort zones, I think you are projecting. It's a common failing among Christians in my experience. You cling to your comforting superstitious fairy tales but accuse those of us who leave them behind of doing the same. Rather like your fundamentalism claims you seek to drag us back down to your level, it's pathetic, dishonest and more than a little childish. It's an empty tactic employed by those without any evidence to back up their claims.
"makes me yawn and pass gas." Very good both at the same time, quite the achievement for a know nothing wowser, now run along and play with your sock puppet gods like a good little child. The grown ups have work to do.
Which one?
The one where humans get created last, on the 6th day?
Or the one where Adam (mentioned by name) gets created first, then (during a stretch of time the duration of which is not mentioned) the rest of the world, and then Eve (mentioned by name) from his rib?
Or both?
Obviously, Blake is attempting parody, and quite good at it.
Billy Bob Neck's comment is clearly satire again.
It goes to show that Sinners will say and do anything to fornicate the body God gave created and gave them, attack someone based on who they ae and what they stand for rather than Truth and Justice. Evolutionists are more religous than the POPE. No-Evidence for most of the Evolutionary claims. Thousands refused to debate Hovind and those who were brave enough couldnt show one shred of evidence to support there claims.So instead of facing him in a debate they use there postions
Ha! The delayed fundie response gambit is played by NONEBEFORENONEAFTER. Hard cheese 'tard: I was waiting...
Regardless of your beliefs, you all should be ashamed of yourselves, taking pleasure in others pain, sorrow, and misfortune. True colors shining through. Very loving people here.
Justice was done. Hovind essentially stole from all of us.
I'm happy he is paying for it. Not ashamed one iota.
NA, your concern is noted. A man who cheated on his taxes went to jail. The fact that he cheated on his taxes is a black eye to all good xians who pay their taxes. He got what he deserved. So your concern is rejected.