IOKIYAC

"...they should have an easy time letting go since they're religious, and their faith will make them happy..."
That is what they do. I once attended a funeral service for a young lady who had been an Oral Roberts University student. During the preaching by the minister about her being in a better place several of her friends, at different times, got up an "told" how they had just had a vision of her in heaven and being quite happy.

D******* F******

Worm dirt? That's great!

I actually hope to be cremated....

So, religious beliefs give you "trust in the system" and "faith in the system" ... Now we see who the colonel's god really is. It's like under the Tsar, where the priest was bound to tell your anti-state sins heard in confession to the secret police.

I don't recall Malcolm X having a lot of trust or faith in the system, however. So maybe the colonel is mistaken.

I respected Tillman for his courage and dedication to country, but in many ways he was just a fool who allowed himself to be caught up in all the pant pissing and worrying about black skinned people attacking this country and left a lucrative career in the NFL to go and kill the people he thinks attacked us on 9/11.
It was also suggested that he wised up during the last months and weeks before his death and started to realize the scam that was going on in Iraq and started making his fealings on this subject known to those around him, up until the point he was killed by his own troops.

Just something to think about.

MYOB'
.

So, I'm from Tempe and watched him play football at Arizona State and the Arizona Cardinals. (There will be Pat Tillman memorial outside the new Arizona Cardinals football stadium opening this August. I hope to visit it.) I didn't know him personally, but from all local press stories in Arizona about him since the his death, I wish I would have. http://localsearch.azcentral.com/sp?keywords=pat+tillman

Who cares what his religious beliefs were? This man is a true American hero and to read these comments is painful.

I fail to see what's heroic about dying pointlessly.

So I don't know how an atheist thinks. I can only imagine that that would be pretty tough.

Aww, Mr. Kauzlarich is just expressing Christian sympathy here. I'm sure he's also terribly broken up with grief over the knowledge that those atheistic Tillmans will eventually be burning in torment and suffering forever and ever, too.

...So for their son to die for nothing, and now he is no more -- that is pretty hard to get your head around that.

Well now was that so hard? If they could tell the Tillman family this, why couldn't anybody have let Cindy Sheehan in on what it was her son died for by now?

... that is pretty hard to get your head around that.

A classic case of projection there. "The world is out there in space not being held up by turtles or anything... that is pretty hard to get your head around that."

What part of Kauzlarich's characterization of an atheist's beliefs are inacurate? The question I always have for atheists is what do you say to comfort a terminally ill child (who you presumably care for). What sort of information do you comfort her with reagarding her death? Would you rather give her a drug that makes her euphoric as she appraoches death to avoid the question? I would suspect some of you (PZ excluded) would lie and suggest there is something else out there. I do not think this proves anything about the existent of God, but I have always been curious. I figured this forum would provide a nice slice of anonymous atheist insight. Finally, are there any freethink, bright, atheist, secular humanist,etc charity organisations? The only ones I saw helping out in NOLA were church groups. What gives? I am honestly curious about both questions despite my nome de plume.

J Falwell, and any others, visit the linked page for a place where atheists and christians are having a positive, respectful (mutually) dialogue about this and other relevant subjects.

http://off-the-map.org/ebayatheist/

There are atheist charities. But they are called secular, rather than piss believers off, since giving under the guise of atheism would be flaunting irreligiousity. See the Gates foundation, for example.

What sort of information do you comfort her with reagarding her death?

The truth?

I've been lied to about some pretty big things; and I've had the truth about those things, as well. I've appreciated the truth much more every time. The thing about being lied to is that you find out the truth eventually; at that point you not only get the shock of the truth, you get the betrayal of having been lied to.

The question I always have for atheists is what do you say to comfort a terminally ill child (who you presumably care for). What sort of information do you comfort her with reagarding her death?

Bokononists would probably quote holy scripture:

"Live by the foma that make you brave and kind and healthy and happy." - Bokonon I:5

Atheists know that while foma may be tasty, they are not very nutritious for children, and should only be served as part of a balanced diet.

J Falwell: I'm an atheist and I spent most of September working in a Red Cross shelter in Galveston at my own expense. The Red Cross, despite its name, is secular.

Religion has no monopoly on comforting stories, since we're every one of us story tellers. Putting books other than the Holly Bibble in libraries is (so far) still legal, while DVDs make movies and TV shows live forever.

Your question was addressed in the most recent Christmukkah Carol episode of Ally McHeal, er, Grey's Anatomy, featuring the prime time romantic and professional angst of sleep deprived surgical interns in a Seattle hospital. One coupling features the heroic heart surgeon, Burke, who needs his magic hat or he just can't cut, and his doting intern Christina, who does not share his mind/body views-- he's "spiritual, not religious" and she sees that as a distinction without a distance. She's an atheist, and this puts a strain on their relationship.

Enter one of the patients du jour, a young (11?) black patient here to receive his second heart transplant. His Momma's put a Christmas tree in his room, and is praising Jesus and Santa Claus for bringing him his new heart-- this makes young Webster even more depressed. It turns out he's figured out that Santa didn't bring his new heart, that the only reason one is available is because some other kid died. Burke the ace theist surgeon sees him dying of the terminal illness known technically as lackofwilltolive and demands that Christina fill his head with whatever religious hooey she can muster to fuse his tenuous mind/body connection.

I'm not even doing justice to the fine writing that ensues, but she basically explains that young Webster owes a big debt to Western medicine that he's alive at all, even though it does indeed suck that it's at the expense of somebody else. Perhaps, if he's looking for a reason to live, his condition may eventually be part of the process of discovering how new hearts can be provided for those who need them without requiring that another dies. He appreciates the honesty over the bullshit, and instead of doing the big nod, his borrowed ticker does an upturn.

So in other words, Christians can never be upset about their children dying in a war based on lies or due to possible malfeasance of those around them because their kids go to heaven and are forever happy. Yeah, that's nothing at all like the "72 Virgins" motivation for terrorism.

Yeah, I'm going to go with "demented fuckwit" on this one. He knows he has a supportive audience, it's likely none of the ESPN followers are going to call him out on his blatant condescension.

Nice that he's implicitly admitting that the core tenet of religion is the willingness to "swallow the Kool-Aid", as it were. "Have faith in God, have faith in the system, don't ask questions, go back to sleep."

So I don't know how an atheist thinks. I can only imagine that that would be pretty tough.

From the bible bangers that I've met, it wouldn't matter if he was an Atheist, Jew, Muslim or any other unapproved Christian Denomination. As long as you're not in their club patting each other over the back with tales of Witnessing for Jeebus, you're a non-entity to be pitied. I've had to listen to these crazies rant at me for "my ignorance" of "Gospel Truth" for years. It's gets old really quick. Eventually you learn to ignore the stupidity.

It's a waste of time trying to deal with irrational people. It's sad that grieving relatives had to read that garbage.

Lt. Col. Ralphie got one thing right. Tillman died for nothing. Just like all the others.

Well, so much for the jesus freak claim that there are no atheists in foxholes.

As to secular aid groups, they are easy to find. The Red Cross was already mentioned. Then there is the Bill Gates Foundation. There are also Medecins Sans Frontiers and Medecins du Monde.

Very often, religious aid groups spend more time and money on promoting their god than on actually aiding people. They are more interested in converting people so they will be "saved" for the afterlife than in saving them for a healthy life here and now.

Some years ago, Christopher Hitchens exposed just one such case of proselytizing being more important than aid, Mother Teresa.

http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/hitchens_16_4.html

Kauzlarich, now a battalion commanding officer at Fort Riley in Kansas, further suggested the Tillman family's unhappiness with the findings of past investigations might be because of the absence of a Christian faith in their lives.

hmm. what an interesting philosophy. one, we can use it to justify murdering somebody (heck, they're going to a better place, after all); and two, anybody who thinks murders should be investigated just needs to adopt the christian faith.

who needs law when you have Gawd?

Amazing there are apparently so many military minds who think like this.

just like politics naturally becomes the playground of those who desire power, the military becomes the playground of criminals who justify their behavior with psuedo-religious philosphy.

of course, their philosophy results in some interesting behaviors, like the slaughter of a group of civilians that was documented a couple months back.

Like abu grahib.

nothing new. saw it viet nam too.

what's remarkable is the lack of learning the military continues to exhibit. they always seem so puzzled when shit like this happens.

Worm food? Fantastic! I can rest easy knowing that after my death I will achieve immortality through the carbon cycle. Unlike the so-called immortality promised by various religions, mine is established scientific fact. :)

Kauzlarich might have a point, though, when he says:

"But there [have] been numerous unfortunate cases of fratricide, and the parents have basically said, 'OK, it was an unfortunate accident.' And they let it go. So this is -- I don't know, these people have a hard time letting it go. It may be because of their religious beliefs."

I tend to agree that religious people are more likely to drink urine in a glass if someone in authority calls it lemonade. It's us atheists who are less likely to swallow without question.

Thank you bernarda & J Bean. I only forgot the biggest aid organization in the world! Gates and Buffett are also atheists too. Right?

Perhaps I should have phrased my question as: Is there an aid organization that is EXPLICITLY atheist. Or chartered as atheist or explicitly anti-religion. I don't mean that it would only help fellow atheists or refuse to help the victims of Katrina (the vast majority of whom were religious). Perhaps some people here would prefer to let them die, to phase out some more "God Genes". The cross of the Red Cross may be from the Swiss flag, but I doubt this is the first association people make. Also the fact that these is red crescent and red star of david suggests that I am not alone in making this association. Something like: Atheist Aid Organization or the Red Double Helix.

If atheists got together and formed an aid organization it would be a p.r. coup. The American Red Cross has a terrible reputation for incompetence and corruption, so there is an opening for an organization such as this. Atheism is perceived by many as a negation of belief. This reputation leads many to associate it with a sort of selfish nihilism. An atheist aid group could weaken this perception.

bernarda- you may have a point there. However, I believe (can I use that word in this forum?) that despite the danger of proletysing from religious aid organizations, that on balance they do more to comfort the victims of disasters, famine, disease then you give them credit for. Furthermore, if you are correct about religious organizations wasting time on curing the soul and not the low t-cell count, then surely the point I made above would work wonders.

Ken Cope- Perhaps I asked a loaded question, but is your answer to describe the reality of the situation? I guess you could tell a child with a defective heart that she is dieing because of a series of random events beyond her control and beyond the reach of medicine. Perhaps read her a line from Seneca: "It is within the reach of every man to live nobly, but within no man's power to live long." Also, I didn't mean screening the 'Passion' was the only way to explain suffering.

"J. Falwell" wrote:

Perhaps some people here would prefer to let them die, to phase out some more "God Genes".

I'm afraid that if that is really your expectation, then you've come to the wrong place.

I don't personally know of any atheist, no matter how strident (and I'm sure you realize I know many) who wouldn't consider the position you're looking for to be, at the very least, bizarre and offensive.

by the way, I should have pointed out that I think there's a big disconnect in the way each of us is looking at the issue of secular versus religious charities. For instance:

If atheists got together and formed an aid organization it would be a p.r. coup.

why would that be a reasonable purpose for a charity? I mean, if the purpose of the charity really is to help people, isn't it better for it to be secular that is, have no purpose other than helping people? It seems to me to be somewhat disingenuous to use an ostensibly charitable organization as a PR tool...

Kauzlarich is a good example of how I (just might) be converted to xtianity - what it requires is the presistently low-flying police helicopter here, to crash onto the loonie church round the corner, when it is packed to the door with brain-dead.
They'll all get to meet Jesus, and the rest of us will get a quiet life back ......

Seriously, this is classic religious blackmail, right out in the open.
And no-one even notices!

Of course, PZ, you don't mind religious kids dying in war so your right to spew atheist hate is protected, do you.

Millimeter Wave- Hmmmm...Bad timing on this statement: "I'm afraid that if that is really your expectation, then you've come to the wrong place."

yet one post below you, G. Tingey states:

"what it requires is the presistently low-flying police helicopter here, to crash onto the loonie church round the corner, when it is packed to the door with brain-dead.
They'll all get to meet Jesus, and the rest of us will get a quiet life back ......"

m Wave- I guess you don't hang with G Tingey. You are naive or delusional to assume that certain atheists do not mind religious zealots winning Darwin Awards. Objectivist atheists come to mind. The pernicious nature of religion is documented on this site enough, so I don't need to repeat them. If the faith based are so dangerous, why would atheists mourn their demise? Aren't they merely carriers of a "diseased meme"? (like Dawkins & Dennett have noted)

The pr would be a beneficial externality. Red Double Helix provides malaria medication to group x of people and saves them. Samaritin's Purse prays with group y and they die. Who will group z seek for help? You think PZ would fail to mention an incident like this? Is Dawkins anyhting other than a pr machine?

Perhaps you prefer atheism to be counterculture? If you are American, you are in the right place!

Atheism isn't some monolithic belief system. It consists of precisely one statement - I do not believe in the existence of any deities. Asking about atheistic aid groups makes about as much sense as asking about theistic ones.

Okay, you got us, Mr. Falwell, we're all vicious jackals who pray for the violent death of everyone with any irrational beliefs. Of course, if you're really just pointing out the "bad apples" in the bunch, then yes, there probably are some, but I hardly see how they're germane to the subject.

As far as the actual content of this argument goes (and it's nice to see you sticking to it when you're not throwing backhanded jibes at us), I tend to agree with MWave, that helping people is the point, and it needs no window dressing. Moreover, I'm beginning to think that the mere notion of an atheist charity group sounds too much like giving in to everyone's notion that atheists are horrible people. "Overcompensating", if you will. I rather prefer pushing the notion that helping others is a noble and good cause, and that one's tribal identity is irrelevant to that cause.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Crystal_%28symbol%29

The question I always have for atheists is what do you say to comfort a terminally ill child (who you presumably care for). What sort of information do you comfort her with regarding her death?

Teaching all children that they must believe in an invisible sky daddy or go to hell must really comfort them in case they become terminally ill, I guess.

Perhaps I should have phrased my question as: Is there an aid organization that is EXPLICITLY atheist.

That's a religious thing. Atheists don't need an ulterior motive to help others. We just do it.

"The cross of the Red Cross may be from the Swiss flag, but I doubt this is the first association people make"

Actually, the first mental association I have is of first aid boxes and war ambulances. Then plague victims. Christianity ain't in there.

Of course, PZ, you don't mind religious kids dying in war so your right to spew atheist hate is protected, do you.

Protected from who? I must have missed the part where we discovered Afghanistan's plan to invade the US.

And it's pretty frickin' rich for someone like you to show up here and talk about a "right to spew atheist hate" when it's pretty obvious that you and yours are doing all that you can in this country to make sure that atheists don't have any rights at all.

"Jerry Falwell"?
Has that "Jason" jerkoff become infected by the Xian web condition known as "Legion"? (Symptoms consist of one xian/pseudo-neocon ass posting under a large, ever-increasing number of aliases to somehow fool someone [generally ONLY themselves] while becoming increasingly demonically bizarre in their posts. Named from that silly book of theirs, I believe, where a certain character declares "My name is Legion.)

If this guy's commanding a battalion, he's already surpassed the majority of career officers. Considering that he conducted a fraudulent investigation, it's clear that the Army brass doesn't mind those lies.

Could somebody please direct me to the Bible verse which allows lying? 'Cause I can't find it.

This is an account of Pat Tillman's memorial from the San Francisco Chronicle. Please make note of what Tillman's younger brother, Rich, had to say:

www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/05/04/SPG5K6FD091.DTL

Sorry.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/SPG5K6FD091.DTL

J. Falwell said:

"If the faith based are so dangerous, why would atheists mourn their demise? Aren't they merely carriers of a "diseased meme"?"

I don't know about you, but when I see a disease spreading, I'd prefer to have the victims cured via drugs, rather than just wiping-out all those infected. Granted, wiping everyone out can be pretty effective, but I prefer a more humane approach. Likewise, I'd rather cure theists of their silly notions than have them all killed.

A Christian dying pointlessly is tragic. But you are right to a certain extent: if a religious zealot wins a Darwin Award directly because of their zealotry, then I don't really feel that bad.

J Falwell: I'm an atheist and I spent most of September working in a Red Cross shelter in Galveston at my own expense. The Red Cross, despite its name, is secular.

Posted by: J Bean | July 20, 2006 12:45 AM

As did I. Ferriday LA. It is unfortunate that the Greek Cross has religious connotations. One of the reasons for the Red Crescent is that the last time the Middle East was visited by a bunch of folks wearing it on their armor, it wasn't a good thing. So, you can see why the Muslim countries had issues.

Perhaps I should have phrased my question as: Is there an aid organization that is EXPLICITLY atheist. Or chartered as atheist or explicitly anti-religion.

J. Falwell, I have to say that statement is, well, pretty far off. First, the Red Cross is neutral. Secondly, why would it be necessary to charter anything as religious or not religious? It simply doesn't matter. Ahem, atheism ain't a religion, it's not even organized, so the very idea is ludicrous. Finally, if it were "explicitly anti-religion", that would tend to interfere with any actual humanitarian mission, now wouldn't it?

I've never met an atheist who refused to help out for religious reasons. I have met religious folks who refused to join aid efforts unless they were allowed to preach to the captive audience of victims. Which was the better person, hmmm??

Barry:
Backstory: Joshua 2:4-6
And the woman [Rahab] took the two men and hid them and said thus: There came men unto me, but I wist not whence they were; and it came to pass about the time of shutting of the gate, when it was dark that the men went out; whither the men went I wot not; pursue after them quickly, for ye shall overtake them. But she had brought them up to the roof of the house and hid them with the stalks of flax.

Followed by: James 2:25
Was not Rahab, the harlot, justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

Other examples:

Exodus 1:18-20
And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men-children alive? And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them. Therefore God dealt well with the midwives.

1 Kings 22:21-22
And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him .. I will go forth and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him and prevail also; go forth and do so.

2 Kings 8:10
And Elisha said unto him, go, say unto him, Thou mayest certainly recover: howbeit the Lord hath showed me that he shall surely die.

Even God lies!

2 Chronicles 18:22
Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets.

Ezekiel 14:9
And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.

2 Thessalonians 2:11
For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.

Well, Christians are more easily suckered and exploited than atheists. One of the things Christianity is for. Pie in the sky when you die.

Maybe Ann Coulter will be able to prove that Tillman's injuries were self-inflicted.

OK, this is what Pat Tillman's brother Rich said at his memorial:

Tillman's youngest brother, Rich, wore a rumpled white t-shirt, no jacket, no tie, no collar, and immediately swore into the microphone. He hadn't written anything, he said, and with the starkest honesty, he asked the mourners to hold their spiritual bromides.

"Pat isn't with god," he said. "He's f---ing dead. He wasn't religious. So thank you for your thoughts, but he's f---ing dead."

--from Gwen Knapp, SF Chronicle, May 14, 2004

Small wonder that, in a military that increasingly seems to require religious faith to garner promotion, that they'd resort to painting a grieving family as less than worthy because they don't follow party lines.

I take issue with the various statements that the Red Cross is religion-neutral or even an atheist organization. After Katrina there were posters popping up in the NOLA area that had been issued by the Red Cross which asked that people should pray.
Has Kauzlarich possibly considered the reason that some people have troubles "letting go" is because they consider the sacrifice their dead kids have made totally in vain because none of the objectives for invasion of Afghansitan and Iraq have been achieved ?

I take issue with the various statements that the Red Cross is religion-neutral or even an atheist organization. After Katrina there were posters popping up in the NOLA area that had been issued by the Red Cross which asked that people should pray.

If true-and I'd like to see one of these posters-it would be a major no-no. Saw more than one use of the Red Cross logo by non-Red Cross organizations, however. Could easily have been some zealot working on their own.

Allow me to quote from the fundamental principles of the Red Cross:

Impartiality: It makes no discrimination as to nationality, race, religious beliefs, class or political opinions. It endeavors to relieve the suffering of individuals, being guided solely by their needs, and to give priority to the most urgent cases of distress.

Neutrality: In order to continue to enjoy the confidence of all, the Movement may not take sides in hostilities or engage at any time in controversies of a political, racial, religious or ideological nature.

"IOKIYAC"

UH?

Someone please explain ....

Form the post: "I think even I can tell that that is the kind of thing only an insensitive jerk would say. It's OK If You Are Christian, though!" See

And.. the red cross' symbol was taken from the nationality of the founder (Swiss) - who reversed the colours
-v. simple.
The pig-buggerers, as usual, were determined to take offence where none was intended, hance the red crescent.

Now we've got this crystal thingie .....

The military should start recruiting outside middle class churches.
See how that goes over. It's scary that the Air Force Acadamy is in the
same city as the headquarters of Focus on The Family.

And.. the red cross' symbol was taken from the nationality of the founder (Swiss) - who reversed the colours
-v. simple.
The pig-buggerers, as usual, were determined to take offence where none was intended, hance the red crescent.

Now we've got this crystal thingie .....

Oh, and it seems apparent the "J. Falwell" does not appreciate IRONY or SARCASM hmmm .....

I even started the next sentence with "SeriouslY and he still didn't notice!

Perhaps he should read "A modest proposal" ????

I guess you could tell a child with a defective heart that she is dieing because of a series of random events beyond her control and beyond the reach of medicine.

There are countless things you could say other than "you are going to heaven." Use your imagination. Visit some we sites. Atheists aren't defective in some way if they don't talk about god at the bedside of a terminally ill person.

Personally, I think you all are pouring too much vitriol upon the Lt. Col. The military is obviously at fault for trying to cover up and gloss over what happened, but I don't see any real religious bigotry here.

The Lt. Col.'s statements about atheism are really nothing more than understandable naivety. If he was really an "insensitive jerk" he would have said something about their son going to hell or whatever.

When you break down his statements they really are pretty accurate:
"if you die, what is there to go to? Nothing. You are worm dirt." [that pretty much sums up what happens to our bodies]

"So I don't know how an atheist thinks. I can only imagine that that would be pretty tough." [Here he states his naivety and it really isn't that insulting of a statement]

"I think so. There is not a whole lot of trust in the system or faith in the system" [also pretty accurate. Most atheists are more concerned with this world and righting this world's wrongs so it doesn't suprise me that the Tillmans have been pursuing the truth with vigor]

one of the most irritating bromides of the military believers is the old "there are no atheists in foxholes." When I overhear this one I let them know that combat duty is exactly where my non-belief was born. I saw the unholy work unfolding all around me. Close friends being exploded into little bits and pieces for no discernable reason and decided "if this is the work of God, then I want nothing to do with it."

Patriotism the last refuge of a scoundrel? Perhaps religion instead.

Pretty nauseating stuff. I get a whiff of "scared shitless" here though. I think the guy is hiding something.

m Wave- I guess you don't hang with G Tingey. You are naive or delusional to assume that certain atheists do not mind religious zealots winning Darwin Awards.

I guess you didn't understand what he said. It's called sarcasm.

Do there exist "certain atheists" who harbor such views? Of course. There exist "certain christians" who harbor the complementary view, too. Do you actually consider such a position to be a defining characteristic of each, though?

"IOKIYAC"

UH?

Someone please explain ....

"It's OK if you're a Christian"

(or possibly "It's OK if you're a conservative")

STS

["So they say" (I made that one up)]

I think it's insulting because he's claiming the parents are irrational in their quest for answers BECAUSE they are atheist. He's saying if they had FAITH they wouldn't care so
much because they would believe their son is in heaven.

He's saying... their issues are not my problem. They would be over it if they only had faith.

PZ Myers is just the fat bully type.

He probably got beat up in school and lot and now he can be a tough guy on the net.

Why don't you come over to Kansas Citizens for Science and straighten those pussies out?

Come Preach your atheism1

Kansans need to hear it.

It will make your side when Myers when they hear your brave forceful arguments

You need to tell the Kansans what ignorant fools they are.

And help Krebs too/

Smoooth operatuhhhh... smoooooth operatUHH.

C'mon you can put a sentence together. I know ya can.

Unlike the majority of Christians, I have read the Bible.

When this un-American moron, Kauzlarich, says that, "Well, if you are an atheist and you don't believe in anything, if you die, what is there to go to? Nothing. You are worm dirt," I know he's misrepresenting not only atheism, but Christianity itself. Same with the other Christians here who seem to think that when they die they'll go upstairs to play paddy cakes with Jesus.

Folks, this is really very simple: The Bible says that when you die, you die. You're indeed worm dirt.

There is absolutely no place in either the Old or the New Testament where anyone makes the claim that after a believer dies he'll go to Heaven. Indeed, the whole idea of Resurrection and Judgment Day would make no sense if death was an automatic elevator to God. Instead, it's quite clear that when you die, you're no longer conscious of anything. Now, in the future, when Jesus supposedly comes back, that's when he will supposedly judge everybody and those who are deemed righteous will be resurrected and those who are not will remain dead.

I guess the enthusiasm some have for the Jesus's Second Coming makes sense of them, since that's their chance to be resurrected. But to be resurrected you gotta die first. Really die, just like us unbelievers.

Christians, read your own Holy Book before you pretend to know what is says. So, when you're wondering what to tell a dying Christian child, if you're going to be honest, you'll have to tell him he won't sprout wings and he won't be given a lyre, but he'll be, well, worm dirt for the foreseeable future.

I'm afraid that this sort of thing confirms a prejudice of mine about Christians: That they don't take death very seriously and therefore don't really mind murder, wars, etc as long as it is for a "good cause". After all, going to Heaven is a good thing, right? Even if the method of getting there is unpleasant (ie getting blown to bits by your own side), the reward is great. So why not murder unbelievers, start Crusades, etc? As far as I can tell, the main objection seems to be that it would be rude to force someone into the next life before their appointed time. Not a very strong argument against, really.

At least Diane admits she is prejudiced.

Unusual on a hate site.

And by the way, Dianne, since atheists beleive this is all there is, is that why they have created HELL on earth in the forms of Gulags and torture centers?

Ah, yet another name of Legion. Take your meds, fella.

One of the reasons religions arose was to legitimize the political rulers of chiefdoms and early states. While it may help people within the group get along it is very useful to inculcate such beliefs in your soldiers so that they will kill strangers that the poliitical leadership has decided have to be killed or enslaved. The silly and childish attacks by people like Kansan and Sade reflect this type of thing, support your "own" irregardless of how rotten they are attack anyone that is different. Same shit, different millenium.

As to the comment about what would an atheist say to a dying child wouldn't that depend on what lies the child had already been exposed to? I did not have to face that situaiton with any of my children but from the earliest age they were taught that this life is all there is and that's why they should work to make it as good a life as possible for themselves and as many others as possible. However in the past four years I have lost three close friends/relatives to cancer. All were atheists and not one of them ever showed any fear of dying, just of the pain.

There are a few charities which are explicitly atheist/humanist. The Council for Secular Humanism has S.H.A.R.E (Secular Humanist Aid and Relief Efforts) and the Atheist Alliance also has a relief fund for disasters. I've given to both.

But, like most of the posters here, I agree that co-mingling a philosophical position with charity is a bit distasteful. Unlike the theists, we are not trying to convert people to naturalism by making them think "gee, those people really are nice!" If we change anyone's mind, we want it to be because the evidence convinced them, not because they wanted to be a part of such a swell bunch or because it will make them a better person.

I think the fact that we focus on naturalism being a stance on what is true (rather than a stance on how to have a happy life) gets in the way of simply using charity to advance our PR with the majority. We don't want it to look like people should care or not care about others based on their religious beliefs. We're all in this together: whether God exists or not should make no difference. Giving in the "name" of atheism seems to send the opposite message.

Our concern for honesty and consistency also gets in the way of telling comforting stories to make things easier for the dying. Might I do it myself under some circumstances? Perhaps, but I would not view that as something to be proud of in itself. It would be a trade-off.

I suppose a Born Again Christian might face the same dilemma if a non-Christian whom they loved were dying and asked "I can't believe in your religion -- do you think I'm going to hell?" If they were tender-hearted, they might say "no." Though thinking about it they would probably just step up the hard-sell.

hehe... dat's funny.

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gldlyTjXk9A&search=Spanish%20Inquisition%20M…

Are you saying a Christian would never torture anyone ever?
Is the CIA a kabal of Atheists? Sit down and shut up you tool.

Re: Falwell's question as to where the explicitly atheist charities are. In the first place, since we atheists are so few in number in this country, how can we be expected to have so many visible charities? Secondly, wasn't it Jesus himself who said that we should do our good works in secret? What do you expect Falwell, that we set up atheist charities so we can say to America "Hey everybody, we're atheists and look at all of the good we are doing!"

As for what I would tell one of my children if they were dying of cancer, I never thought about it. Rather than think about how I would respond to a purely hypothetical situation, I would prefer to enjoy the time I have with my children and focus on raising them to be moral and responsible people.

I guess you could tell a child with a defective heart that she is dieing because of a series of random events beyond her control and beyond the reach of medicine.

Well, it sure beats telling her that she is dying because she's been bad - and that if she (or I) just had enough faith, she'd get well.

Jerk who told my father his wife of 61 years was bed-ridden, unable to speak or eat or move, was like that so he could learn a lesson nailed down the lid on his belief in a personal god.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned how offensive this is to Christians.

I mean, look at this:

"I think so. There is not a whole lot of trust in the system or faith in the system"

The guy's nakedly conflating faith in god with faith in the US Government, and in turn conflating both of those with rationality.

It seems pretty offensive to anybody who isn't an authoritarian tool, honestly.

offensive?

the way this Lt. corn kernel thinks is scary.

I personally could give a rat's bum for offensive. this guy needs a serious psych eval, pronto.

Aris--
Actually, that isn't true. Luke 23:43 suggests that the good robber will go to Paradise after death and see Jesus there. Now how that's reconciled with "he was dead three days and in hell and then rose", don't ask me. I'm an atheist.

There is also a problem of bigotry in the National Guard.

"In a shocking "about face," the Chief of the National Guard Bureau praised American diversity and the role played by minorities in our nation's military defense, but then suddenly chastised "Agnostics, atheists and bigots."

Lt. Army Gen. H. Steven Blum made the remarks while speaking to the NAACPs Annual Armed Services and Veterans Affairs Awards Dinner in Washington, DC on July 18. The story, including quotes from Blum's talk, was reported in an American Forces Press Service dispatch. According to writer Rudi Williams:

"As for the military's diversity, Blum said, the battlefield might be the greatest equalizer. 'Agnostics, atheists and bigots suddenly lose all that when their life is on the line,' Blum said. 'Something that they lived with their whole life believing gets thrown out the door, and they grasp the comrade next them, and they don't care what color their skin is, and they don't care where they pray...' ""

http://www.atheists.org/nogodblog/

Here is a good reply by a veteran to a godophile.

http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/guestessays/garrett.html

"I am a U.S. Army veteran. I cowardly volunteered to wear green clothing and hump a machine gun instead of enjoying the fresh salt air, like you, Chuck. I am also, quite incidentally, an atheist, in part because folk like you continually demonstrate the inability of your god to improve upon so many of his worshippers, but mostly because after years of zealous worship and study, including seminary, ordination and pulpit ministry, I came to realize my religion was built on myth, falsehood and no evidence that could hold up to any kind of scrutiny. But my purpose here is not to defend my beliefs, but rather my Constitutionally protected right to have them without interference from any religious kook who thinks he has a direct channel to "the other side.""

"I'm afraid that this sort of thing confirms a prejudice of mine about Christians: That they don't take death very seriously and therefore don't really mind murder, wars, etc as long as it is for a "good cause".
Posted by: Dianne"

"At least Diane admits she is prejudiced.
Unusual on a hate site.
Posted by: Hatesitewatch"

Diane,

Prejudice is prejudice.

Some of my favorite Christians...

Thomas Merton

You'll like him.

http://www.merton.org/

My personal favorite, Father Camilo Torres, the gun-toting, revolutionary Priest of Liberation Theology...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camilo_Torres_Restrepo

Pierre de Teilhard de Chardin... there are lots of them. I even like some believers from other faiths, such as Sufis and Dervishes, like Jaladdin Rumi, for instance. Organized religion is a crock of shit. Thomas Jefferson said that, (Dunghill was actually the word he used). Me? I don't worry about it much, if and when I found out, I'll claim I was a gnostic all along. Calling the clowns who pollute the airwaves with the 700 Club, and populate the mega-churches and "crystal cathedrals" Christians is an insult to a guy named Jesus Christ whether he ever existed or not.

J. Falwell:

Something like: Atheist Aid Organization or the Red Double Helix.

Depending how it's drawn, the logo might look like a caduceus (aka snake pr0n).