The Nine Defining Characteristics of the Christian Conservative

Okay, so sex outside marriage is wrong, but God lends a hand and creates life in the womb and it's a blessing. I've always wondered about this. If creating a cute little baby is God's will, then how can the act from which it came be a sin? Is the kid a blessing or a punishment? I guess, as an atheist, I'll never understand the intricacies of Godly wisdom.

6) Abortion is murder because God alone has the authority to create and take a life in the womb.

Next time a pro-lifer tells you that "abortion is murder" ask them what the punishment should be for the mother who has an abortion. Odds on they will tell you that the mother "has been punished enough" and should not go to jail (despite the fact that most women do not suffer mentally after an abortion).

Then ask them to remind you why abortion is the same as murder, if there is no punishment for the "murderer".

Looks like there's plenty of room in the "big tent" of conservatives & Christians for those who hold any ol' opinion about: tax policy, trade policy, labor policy, energy policy, mandatory motorcycle helmets, or whether to ban smoking in bars.

Sure, the list could've condensed the Bible/Jesus items and the evolution/age-of-the-Earth items, or even taken all four together, but obviously it was more important to list them separately than to set a standard in those other areas.

Tacitus -- I imagine even the anti-choicers are imaginative enough to propose punishing the medical practitioner who performs the abortion, since it's not generally possible to surgically abort one's own pregnancy. The gun-toting psychos tend to target clinics, after all, not women who have had abortions.

It's worth keeping in mind that surgical techniques aren't the only valid ones, and that a woman with the right prescription can terminate her own pregnancy:

http://www.medicationabortion.com/

Perhaps that's one of the reasons that non-surgical methods scare the Jebus out of the anti-choice folks: it would make abortion a crime without a (punishable) criminal. (Granted, a medication abortion has to be performed under the care of a physician, so perhaps the same person is wearing the bulls-eye in the case of a non-surgical procedure.)

I wish someday someone could explain to me why a vast Cosmic Intelligence, omnipotent and all knowing, is so darned worried about which appendage touches which orifice in a mob of billions of busy, short-lived beings in whom he has imbued a desperate desire to bump appendages/orifices. It seems so petty and futile.

Well said, PZ. I couldn't agree more and a new group has started a campaign of hard-hitting ads down here in the South to challenge the wingnuts on their hypocrisy. Check out faithinamerica.net for more.

Sorry -- in the comment immediately above I focused on gun-wielding psychos; I didn't mean to understate the impact of bomb-hurling sociopathic zealots. My bad.

What a rich cornucopia of nonsense. But why mention Christianity and Ann Coulter in the same breath? She has said she's a Christian, but she doesn't mean it.

4000+ year old trees? Piffle! We've got (that validates C-14 dating) back to over 8000 years.
I mentioned this to a winger buddy a few years ago, when he was badmouthing C-14 (3000 year old live snails! haw haw!), and he just went "hmph!" and has never mentioned CX-14 again. Gee, I wonder why? Evidently Winger Central hasn't issued anti-tree ring talking points yet...

A conservative, since everyone in conservativeland seems to have forgotten, is for sane fiscal policy, carefully conducted defense, stable foreign alliances, free enterprise, and the protection of personal freedoms. (S)he is generally against rapid change in public policy but is able to handle rather large changes over time. Conservatives are patriots but are disinclined to accuse others who have served their country of lack of patriotism.

I'm just going on the example of the last real conservative to hold the office of President, by the way. It's been a while.

Jesus H. Christ.

If you want to make the "poof magic" Conservatives' blood pressures rise, all you have to do is tell them that it's still legal to say things like Jesus H. Christ, Holy Jesus Pogo Stick. Holy Sweet Merry Flying Jesus Happy Jumping Christmas to you too, Rob!

Zeno, I have pretty much come to the conclusion that Ann "Dice" Coulter is more of a blogger (with the negative connotations that the news media seems to like to use) than a journalist. Until more people understand terms like "peer review" and "scientific method" she and opportunists like her are going to get away with making stuff up. Too many people still believe that if it's in print or on the air waves it *has* to be true.

It's amazing how much they enjoy demonstrating that conservatives really are the stupid party.

(DISCLAIMER: My apologies to any homosexuals who are currently reading this.)

The truest way to get under the skin of most of these people is to try and associate Jesus with the things they hate most. Which is why when confronted by fundies I resort to the 'jesus was gay' strategy which always drives them off their agenda and into mine, which is to become violent. When they hear the notion I perscribe that "What do you think all those guys were doing out in the desert alone? Talking about sports? No! They were sucking each other off like the faggots they were and Jesus loved teabagging!"

Now I've only done this twice. Once around people I would never see again and felt secure in my resolve. The second and most recent situation was with a fundy friend of my mother's who I was getting sick and tired of hearing preach 24/7 whenever he was around me, and badmouthing science and everything associated with Rush Limbaugh's pro-republican talking points. When he got around to Jesus dying for our sins I called it bullshit. I asked him when my 'dead for my sin' clause went into affect? Did my sins in the womb get taken away or did it happen at my 18th birthday? Did it mean I get to say when, like say on my death bed or did it kick in at a moment not of my choosing? What sins were taken away and when? I wanted to know and asked why I couldn't have been told beforehand? This infuriated him and at this point my parents were getting upset at me for confronting him. I then had to go and piss everyone off by saying I had a dream the night before. I woke up to see a spectral image of Jesus christ hovering over my bed sucking my c*ck. I told him I never thought I was gay cause I like women far too much but the sight of Jesus slobbing my knob like a pro really made me wonder. Of course this probably sucked the blood out of every face in the room but mine. I walked upstairs proclaiming that jesus really knows how to suck d*ck, and figured he probably likes it in the ass like a bitch just as much.
Of course my mother doesn't invite the guy to family outings with us anymore cause she had to choose between he and I. So I got out of having to tell the guy to get the f*ck out.

I can be quite the asshole when I want to.

MYOB'
.

Until more people understand terms like "peer review" and "scientific method" she and opportunists like her are going to get away with making stuff up. Too many people still believe that if it's in print or on the air waves it *has* to be true.

Yeah, Mena, I think you're right. She's a "pretend" journalist, a "pretend" Christian, and a "pretend" scholar. Coulter has a well-honed act that plays to packed houses of dupes. She probably marvels at their gullibility and giggles all the way to the bank.

Your "conservative" president is purely imaginary, DOF. Unless you're going as far back as, maybe, Coolidge.

Can't understand why, if they are so oppressed, they don't simply become socalist atheitic gays. Then they would be accepted and loved by everyone, and never have to say Jesus or Merry Christmas again.

386SX: You forgot the best of them all, "Sweet Zombie Jesus!"

Rob! Greetings from MY United States:
1) Where God is a "real" presence in the lives of narrow-minded conservatives like yourself and taking the "Lord's" name in vain is sometimes necessary (as in "Jesus f'ing CHRIST this guy is an idiot!").
2) Where your 6K figure was first calculated by a guy named Bishop Ussher who wrote in the seventeenth century. Time to join the 21st century, Rob!
3) Where uneducated idiots trash a area of science they know nothing about because they read ONE book about it.
4) Where you're dead when you're dead (no exceptions) and "one day" human beings will be appalled that more than 2000 years had to pass before Christianity fell by the wayside.
5) Where "Seasons Greetings" are offered because NOT EVERYONE IS A CHRISTIAN.
6) Where people have the "authority" to create new life everytime they do the nasty.
7) Where your intolerance towards homosexuals is better suited to Hitler's Germany than to today's United States.
8) Where the Bible every day proves its value as a how-to guide to intolerance, close-mindedness, and bigotry.
9) Where militias no longer roam the streets protecting the nation from harm (Thanks for bringing this up. I hadn't given much thought to the 2nd Amendment. We should get rid of it!)

I'm just going on the example of the last real conservative to hold the office of President, by the way.

Bill Clinton?

Oh, and DiscordianStooge, my personal favorite is "Holy Mother of Hip-Hop Jesus!"

9) The Second Amendment is in the constitution and should stay just as it is. Prosecute criminals, not victims!

I love the way he singles out A2 and only A2, as if none of the others were even worth mentioning. Given the larger rhetoric, A1 and A14 are particularly dangerous to Wingnutteria.

DiscordianStooge:

386SX: You forgot the best of them all, "Sweet Zombie Jesus!"

Zombie Jesus? Oh, boy, am I going to have a photo for you in a week or two. If I hadn't forgotten my camera the last time I went to Santa Fe, I'd give you the link right now.

Just you wait. You're going to laugh so hard, you'll need to change your shorts.

>I'm just going on the example of the last real conservative to hold the office of President, by the way. It's been a while.

Interesting. Who would that be?

Isn't it neat how biblical truth just happens to be the same as what's best for Exxon-Mobil?

I love how these people's opinions all come as a boxed set, nobody has a different assortment, even though some of the individual items in the set seem completely unrelated to the others.

"Zombie Jesus? Oh, boy, am I going to have a photo for you in a week or two. If I hadn't forgotten my camera the last time I went to Santa Fe, I'd give you the link right now.

Just you wait. You're going to laugh so hard, you'll need to change your shorts."

Anything like this?
http://www.headinjurytheater.com/images/zombie%20jesus%20jared%20hindma…

There's an interesting subtlety to the button pushing of that list:

Evolution is a myth. Creation is real. God is real. It is still legal to say the word Jesus.

Notice the transition between clauses 2 and 3 - the author moves from evolution into the much more subtle question of "Does God Exist?". The two are quite distinct issues to most rational thinkers.

He then leaps into the topic of whether religious belief is protected in law.

Yet, he creates the appearance that those three topics are in fact related. Most intriguing.

(Other than that, he's a blathering twit - the logicial equivalent of Erich von Danniken.

I wonder of Rob completely grasps the concept of losing one's mind. I'm pretty sure it ain't us Jesus effing Christ liberals.

4) Jesus was resurrected from the dead and will one day return to judge the world and create a new one while the one we live in now will be destroyed.

I was watching something on skinheads, and one of those wackjobs said almost exactly the same thing about HITLER. I guess any nutcase can get a second coming.

7. Homosexuality is sin because God CREATED (again going back to creation) a woman for Adam, not another man.

I guess that means God created incest, though. Who else did Cain have to marry if they were the first humans?

As to the argument that Jesus may have been gay, read (through Googling) the Secret Gospel of Mark and the controversial finds by theological histyorian Morton Smith.

I can be quite the asshole when I want to.

MYOB'

You don't say...

So Merry Christmas to you, Rob, from the bottom of my godless, holiday-usurping heart. Jesus. Jesus H. Christ.

Now I have that song from South Park in my head: "Merry Fucking Christmas, Mr Hindu..."

That list of nine things was so funny I almost ROFLAPIMP!

Just look at the scenes of megachurches or the audiences at the programs on GOD TV, you will see that not only Jesus is a zombie, but about everyone attending also is.

The point on global warming is a good example of xtian and conservative junk thinking. The BBC on its Panorama Program recently did a program about the Bush Junta's doctoring of scientific reports on global warming and its censorship of government scientists who tried to speak out.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/5005994.stm

Erm - what IS the Second Amendment to the USA's constitution?

I'm well up on The Great Charter, and the Bill of Rights, but an ex-colony's constitution is not part of my education.

( BTW, anyone who really doesn't like the Shrub is welcome to swear alliegance to her gracius majesty Queen Elizabeth II )

And ...
"6) Abortion is murder because God alone has the authority to create and take a life in the womb."

VBERY carefully worded, I note.
No mention of spontaneous abortion, or non-implantation, or any of the very frequent causes for a fertilised embryo not to develop to term .....
This is one that always makes the religious squirm.

Second Amendment:
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed."

Wingnuts commonly misconstrue this as endorsing the unlimited and unregulated possession of firearms by private citizens in a fashion which has jackfuck to do with militias of the sort the constitution framers meant, well-regulated or otherwise.

Damn, I farked those tags up real good, didn't I? Preview is your fiend.

386SX: You forgot the best of them all, "Sweet Zombie Jesus!"

A while back "walterneff", in comments at Eschaton, spewed forth "sweet assfuck Jesus!", which gets my vote for all time best. Mileage is, of course, a variable thing...

Re: fetuses being regarded as people

Keep in mind that in all the oldest Christian traditions, Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy alike, babies were not christened until forty days after birth.

We don't give animals that won't have a permanent place in our lives names for the very same reason -- we become emotionally attached to them, and thus it hurts more when they leave or die.

Noah built an ark and the world was flooded

The Bible Archaeology Search and Exploration (B.A.S.E) Institute believes they may have located the remains of Noah's Ark in Iran's Elburz mountain range. They hiked for seven hours in the mountains northwest of Tehran, climbing 13,000 feet before making the apparent discovery.

"I can't imagine what it could be if it is not the Ark," said Arch Bonnema.

"There's this idea, if we can prove that the ark existed then we can prove that the story existed, and more importantly, we can prove that God existed," said Bruce Feiler, author of Where God Was Born.

The funny thing is it took them only seven hours to make their find. And this is not the area where the Biblical ark is supposedly to have landed.

Azkyroth,
Yeah, that's why if the wingnuts actually took the Second Amendment as seriously and as literally as they pretend to, they'd be calling for the return of the National Guard to the states, since they're what used to be the state militias before they were federalized by the Militia Act of 1903 and the National Defense Act of 1916. Of course, that might get in the way of using the Guard for cannon fodder.

"There's this idea, if we can prove that the ark existed then we can prove that the story existed, and more importantly, we can prove that God existed," said Bruce Feiler, author of Where God Was Born.

Yeah, except that didn't the Sumerians have a very similar flood myth, that has been verified by archeological studies to predate the biblical account by ~1000 years?

So finding an ark in Iran would validate the Sumerian story, not the biblical one.

On the upside, I hear that worshipping Ishtar is 'way more fun than that sourpuss Yahweh. Not that either one actually exists or anything.

Jesus Christ and his mariachi band, why all this kvetching?

Hood has now condensed the Official Ideology down to 9 commandments, featuring virtually no overlap with the now-obsolete set of ten.

This trend should be encouraged - a few more iterations, and the list of Divine Constraints on Thinking could get to zero, or at least approach it asymptotically.

Abortion was originally forbidden because it was too dangerous for the woman.

Abortion is opposed by some people because pregnancy and having an illegitimate child are seen as appropriate punishments for having sex. Or wanting sex.

"There was a young lady named Wilde
Who kept herself quite undefiled
By thinking of Jesus,
Contagious diseases,
And having an unwanted child."

How is declaring you believe a lot of ridiculous tripe supposed to make me lose my mind?

If the Holy Bible is the divine, insipid word of God etc. etc. blah. blah. He needed a better editor: Deuteronomy 23:2. No bastard (and other ne-er do wells) can enter an association of the Lord. Jesus father was not married to his mother. Maybe some peer review would have caught that one. "Zeus, I'm sending you my latest draft of Revelations. I wanted a snappy ending, you see. Do you think the car chase is too much?'

The Holy Bible is the divine, inspired, infallible Holy Word of God.

And, according to Christians, you must follow every word. So why don't they follow what god commands in Numbers 5:2 and 3????

Command the children of Israel that they put out of the camp every leper, and everyone who has an issue, and whoever is unclean by the dead. Both you shall put male and female outside of the camp; that they not defile their camp, in the midst of which I dwell.

So, all menstrating females must be put "outside of the camp" or house, town, city, or whatever the modern equivalent to "camp" is. It seems that god does not like menstrating women.

Homosexuality is sin because God CREATED (again going back to creation) a woman for Adam, not another man. God condemns homosexuality and any sexual sin including sex outside of marriage.

If god hates gays, then could someone tell me why the human incarnation of god in Matthew 19:12 says....

For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven's sake. He who is able to receive it, let him receive it.

Since the conventional wisdom concerning eunuchs is they were surgically altered castrated males. Then who is the eunuch that is "born that way from their mother's womb?" IMHO these eunuchs were homosexual men.

kmarissa:

If creating a cute little baby is God's will, then how can the act from which it came be a sin?

But if the parents aren't married, then God sends the baby as a punishment, and not just the parents but the baby gets punished. Dontcha know this is how it's been done for thousands of years?

There is tremendous stress on the word "normal" in the article. (Seven instances of the word, albeit a handful with prefixes and suffixes.) This concept appears absolutely vital to the herd mentality and judgement fixation of conservative groups.

I saw this quote somewhere today and thought it fitting:
The adjuration to be "normal" seems shockingly repellent to me; I see neither hope nor comfort in sinking to that low level. I think it is ignorance that makes people think of abnormality only with horror and allows them to remain undismayed at the proximity of "normal" to average and mediocre. For surely anyone who achieves anything is, essentially, abnormal.
-Dr. Karl Menninger

Two things:

Jesus, yes! I'm a freaking unholy atheist, and I celebrate Christmas--I'm doing my part to make sure it's a secular holiday.

A secularized Christian holiday, perhaps. Something tells me you don't celebrate Passover, Chinese New Year, or solstices and equinoxes. Passover is for many people a secular Jewish holiday, and can be turned into a holiday about freedom. Chinese New Year has never been religious. Solstices and equinoxes are natural astronomical phenomena that have been integrated into many separate religions - it's not a coincidence that Christmas occurs four days after the solstice.

Abortion is murder because God alone has the authority to create and take a life in the womb.

Serious theologians acknowledge that God often works by proxy. For example, a common solution to the problem of evil is a hypothetical greater good: a murder victim would've caused greater evil if left alive, so God used a murderer to kill him. In light of that, it's not difficult to posit that God approves of every abortion that takes place, but uses not just miscarriages but also abortion doctors.

That reminds me. Homestar Runner's back. Wonder if we might have Decemberween in July.

Fun with Christians:

The next time some gay-baiting Christian spouts off "God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve!" in your presence, ask them politely, "Oh? So where did Steve come from?"

I've had only one chance to do this so far, but the spluttering was entertaining. They can't say Satan, because Satan is not allowed to create. They have to admit that (in their own view) God created Steve, but then Steve used his free will to become naughty (and apparently take Adam with him). By then the air has leaked out of their slogan and they're unhappy.

Boo hoo.

Monado says:

Abortion is opposed by some people because pregnancy and having an illegitimate child are seen as appropriate punishments for having sex. Or wanting sex.

...which reminds me of the folks who are against providing an HPV vaccine because they think it'll encourage girls to have sex. Better, they figure, to "punish" their own daughters for the indiscretion by giving them cervical cancer.

Alon Levy

Serious Theologians have also spent significant time debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Let us consider the argument you made:

"For example, a common solution to the problem of evil is a hypothetical greater good: a murder victim would've caused greater evil if left alive, so God used a murderer to kill him."

I live in South Africa, one of the most violent societies on earth (aside from societies involved in civil war or genocide) 20,000 people are murdered every year.

Some of these people killed are quite elderly. +80 years old. Tell me, what evil deeds will a frial +80 year old lady do? Will she cuss at a young man and turn him into the next Hitler?

Evil exists not because the bearded sky fairy is too incompetent to wield his power, or because he is too lazy to take his self appointed job seriously, evil exists because the Bearded Sky Fairy does not.

SweettP2063: Sorry to spoil the fun, but aren't there males born with undescended testicles? Wouldn't that be an example of a "eunuch from the womb"?

Bronze Dog: Oooh, Decemberween in July, my second favourite holiday!

In case anyone wants very tight version an atheological argument using the problem of evil, the book Primary Philosophy by Michael Scriven still has IMO the best one.

Wow, Jason hasn't barged in for his traditonal accusation of 'painting with a broad brush'!He must be asleep at the wheel today.

I may have missed this one, but "Jesus H. Tapdancin' Christ!" with a hat tip to John Belushi. Or Jesus Fuck-me-gently-on-a-hot-rock Christ.

Oh yeah... Just found your blog. Thank you! Just... Thank you! Jesus Crosseyed christ, this worlds' inhabitants can be scary!

Thanks for reading!
Kev

Oh Jesus, save me from your followers!

...

Whaddya mean, you never heard of those guys? They say you talk to them all the time!

Since I read this yesterday, one piece of it has stayed in my mind, that conservatives believe that God authorizes every conception. I understand how this became a belief in ancient times. A man and a woman have sex. Sometimes she becomes pregnant. Sometimes she doesn't. They don't see any factors in themselves that account for different outcomes. They don't see any external factors. OK, so it's some unseen fertility God who determines when a woman becomes pregnant. It is logical, though not easily verified. What else could it be?

Today it's easy to explain the variable outcomes of sex through purely physical factors. Biology and medicine can trace how dangerous the route is for sperm, how critical the timing must be, what factors allow implantation, how easily women can have early miscarriages. There's no step where a fertility God is needed, even though one could charge huge amounts for His intervention if one could get it.

In addition think of all the questions raised by everyone on Earth being here because God said so over 6 billion times, not because of sex or how we're doing well as a species, at least physically. I have clients at the charity where I volunteer who are 20 year-old women with 3 children by 3 different men. I am content to understand that as the power of sex and growing up in a bad home. If I thought God did all that on purpose, I wouldn't be content about it at all. I'd have some pointed questions for God. Instead God tells me very quickly, "It wasn't Me." Good, that's what I thought, liberal that I am.

How do conservatives get past all that? I'm sure they don't. They don't think at all about going past traditional answers. Some of them make up whatever excuse they need to feel secure in sticking to their ancient beliefs, like so many bad arguments against evolution, and they all stick to that, conformists that they are.

It's ironic. I suspect traditional beliefs came from the best thinkers of their time. Now people who stick to such beliefs are definitely not the best thinkers of this time. Time will take care of it, not 100 years, but I bet 500 years will take care of this. Some people are very slow.

The temerity of some punk is quite breathtaking, his dreaming up a list that excludes from the ranks of conservatives Ronald Reagan, Barry Goldwater, William F. Buckley, Milton Friedman, C. Everett Koop, William Bennett, Calvin Coolidge, Herbert Hoover and Orrin Hatch.

If they can't be conservatives, conservatism is . . . well, nothing at all.