Heck of a job, FEMA

How did they come to buy these trailers? Come to that how did any manufacturer get past certification? I would have thought using materials that give off noxious gases was a bit of a no-no in the construction industry.

Anyway if it becomes a big problem it is reasuring to know there is always FEMA to come riding to the rescue

JJ-The trailers are made from vinyl for the better part. Plastic beams, plastic siding, plastic everywhere. They were made by 3 manufacturers for the better part. They sat in the hot sun before they were moved into place and in most cases they couldnt be moved into position because there was no sewer. No trailer parks existed after the storm or they were so loaded up with crap they couldnt move them in.

The carpet is another source of the formaldehyde but I would have thought it would have dropped off by now. Its created when they are manufacturing the carpet. You could likely have three types, formaldehyde, acetylaldehyde and benzaldehyde. All are part of the carbovinyl group. Lots of information on what vinyl does in the environment. It doesnt break down because its designed not to.

As for the trailers themselves. The US government can sell anything it wants where is, as is. They do it all the time and I have bought many things from them to include 350,000 USD aircraft airstarts, main deck loaders, and ground equipment. All of them bore the tag that said I was responsible for the equipment if it was to be sold at auction for scrap. That scrap for instance would be contaminated with fuels and we all know that gasoline is carcinogenic, as is jet fuel. But thats the nature of the beast. The military sells their airconditioner units with all freon drained. But there is always residue.

These trailers are no exception. They can sell them as scrap and there is no law on the books other than that which allows them to do so. I can tell you as much crap as they toss every year that if they were responsible for total cleanup or testing to see if something is hazardous or not, we would have to triple the military budget. Hey, how bout that computer monitor? It has loads of hazards in it too. These are also no exception.

The difference here is that its a tempest in a teacup. The simple answer for the people who may have been exposed to formaldehyde would have been to just open a window. If they were exposed to this and this becomes a problem then the US government will get out of the housing of the people in a disaster business entirely. At the turn of the century a hurricane breached the levees in New Orleans and the lower 9th was flooded. The US government sent them tents and then had to sue Louisiana to get them back. Now I wonder what they will want the government to do next? Build them a house?

I have these neat plans for where the jacuzzi will sit...Ups cant do it, because hot tubs are a hazard.

I dont want to make too much light of these peoples predicament but its more of the same. Henry Waxman will just order another subpoena and continue to dilute the integrity of Congress with yet another hearing. Be happy though, the new Congress that was just voted in has a lower approval rating than Bush.

JJ-hows the Environmental Dept handling the flooding? Seems they have their hands full too.

Randy: No. The formaldehyde comes from composite wood, plywood and similar materials. Not all trailers have them. It has nothing to do with "vinyl." When the USG sells something they know to be hazardous they are no different than anyone else who does that. As for Waxman diluting the integrity of Congress, the Republicans reduced it to homeopathic levels. Waxman is returning some semblance of the missing oversight. You don't like him but he is effective and he gets things done. That's what congressional oversight is supposed to do under the Constitution. If you had an animal carcinogen in your house, with your family, and it was making you sick, what would you say to someone who said, "Randy, stop whining. Open a window"? Me, too.

But Revere its all about the testing. And the federal government isnt required to do it.

Besides what are we going to have now, the trailer police too? We cant just call it oversight anymore. Its witch hunting, its accomplishing nothing and even if there was formaldehyde in there, they always had the option not to stay. I generally wouldnt stay somewhere that a smell of chemicals existed and that would include if it were a trailer provided by FEMA.

Here is a link that covers it pretty well. Again the low tech solution and here come the Waxman wonders. Lets sue the federal government for exposure to formaldehyde and not for putting a roof over our heads instead of a tent as they did in Andrew. Hmmm ....I wonder if Lawton Chiles and Blanco were related? Both waited three days to sign the federal order. Guess who got the blame for Andrew too? Now all the Bush's are responsible for hurricane damage. Waxman was on that deal as well.

History repeating itself... open your windows and let some fresh air in.

Remember, I was also the chem-bio warfare guy for my unit and I pretty well know my chemicals, at least the ones that will do you. Low level formaldehyde isnt one of them. It will give you a headache and red eyes, but even in Louisiana they can walk out the door and open the window for a bit. Once its gone, its gone. I guess we need another study to determine the long term effects of low level aldehydes in one time situations.

http://www.efunda.com/materials/polymers/properties/polymer_cat.cfm?Maj…

http://blog.nola.com/topnews/2007/05/fema_trailers_called_health_ha.html

"Success with Plastics
Although the medical and food industries had mixed experiences with formaldehyde, the plastics industry thrived because of it. Prior to innovation of formaldehyde-derived plastics, the celluloid plastics had been highly flammable and not suitable for mass marketing.16 At the turn of the century, the International Galalith Gesellschaft Hoff and Company compounded formaldehyde and fat-free milk curd to formulate a new synthetic plastic (casein-formaldehyde), which became a main constituent of buttons.16,17

The biggest landmark in formaldehyde-based plastics came in 1910. Leo H. Baekeland condensed phenol and formaldehyde to make the first non-flammable synthetic plastic, Bakelite, which had high utility as an electronics insulator.10,18 Bakelite sales skyrocketed, as it was marketed in toys, jewelry and cameras. The Bakelite Museum in England even boasts a Bakelite coffin!19

Its amber color contributed to its popularity in jewelry, but limited its potential when transparency was needed.10 During the Bakelite heyday, circa 1912, scientists, Daniel J. OConor and Herbert Faber, added formaldehyde to a urea polymer to develop a novel insulation substitute for mica, aka formica.18 The 1920s and 30s, saw the explosive age of the urea formaldehyde resins whose colorless properties allowed new lines of plastic products in bright colors, i.e the trendy plastic versions of marble dishes, bandalasta.11,21

Today, urea-formaldehyde resins and melamine-formaldehyde laminates dominate the commercial market. What began as a reach for a new plastic alternative and preservative has become a $500 billion industry, representing 5% of the United States gross national product.11

Formaldehyde is used to make plywood, vinyl siding and other vinyl products, asphalt shingles, car gears and bearings. Specifically, p-tert-Butylphenol formaldehyde resin is used in bonded leather, construction materials and waterproof glues. In addition, fertilizers and photographic developers are also known to contain formaldehyde.11

And no Revere, I wouldnt tell them to open a window and quit whining. I would just tell them to open a window. Its also the recommendation of the nice lady at Tulane as well.

But these people were also the ones that likely didnt leave when the worst hurricane in recorded history was bearing down on them. Thats okay, they got Waxman to pick up their pieces for them.

To be honest I saw something the other day that said that some, not all had their standard of living INCREASED by FEMA and other agency support. Some lived in trailers before that were built in the 1960's. Some lived in places that I wouldnt let my dog stay in. So where does that get reported? Not unless there's a Waxman out there saying what they did right and thats oversight too.

I wonder if they also understood from the beginning that FEMA only has as of today 5100 and change employees. The number of people affected by Katrina was on the order of 13 million. Do the math and tell me how they or anyone else could have done it. New term. Bush Bash is going to be substituted for Waxman Witchhunt. As best I can tell Waxman is into everything in government and he issues subpoena's like there is nothing left to do in the world. 236 I think is what he has issued since they took over last year. Prior to that the high was only like sixty and its "oversight" ? Its an oversight on the part of Congress to give one committee or man this kind of power.

There were 140 complaints of suggested formaldehyde problems. So lets spend one hell of a lot of money to check on 140 people, lets do a study, lets open the government up for yet another lawsuit and....what does this say about the trailer industry? Lets go regulate that too so the people that are below even the sub-prime cant get even into a trailer to live.

Sorry Revere. It gets me wound up when I hear this kind of stuff. You arent wrong. They might have gotten a little sickened, but hell I used use pure formaldehyde in HS and yeah, it got cut out after it was determined it was dangerous... But not for 50 something years. Where is my attorney?

Randy if I was rehoused after an emergency I would not expect the Ritz but would assume FEMA would not put me in further danger and if they had done so inadvertantly I would expect them to let me know ASAP. Even if only to say we are sorry but it seems the new trailer smell is not too good for you please leave a window open until it clears.
On oversight - while I have not looked into this - I had assumed that while the Republicans had control of both houses they should have been scrutinising the executive branch but were just rubber stamping. The Dems are looking into what has been going on unchecked and have found lots to do plus some party political twisting of the knife.

Randy: First, if you read the more recent literature on formaldehyde, you'll find that not only is it a carcinogen, but it's also a sensitizer, which means it can develop fairly serious systemic allergic reactions. Second, as JJackson said, if in fact, ventilation is all that's needed, then the Government (like any manufacturer or retailer) needs to at least warn the inhabitants that ventilation is needed, and notify them of possible health effects and symptoms, and what to do if any of these are detected.

Ignorance or even negligence, although bad, is one thing. Willful ignorance or negligence is quite another, and is inexcusable, especially from a government agency that's supposed to be promoting (not undermining) the general welfare.

Finally, uncovering this kind of information, overseeing the operation of government agencies, and promoting solutions is exactly what Congress is supposed to be doing, and exactly what the American people expect them to be doing.

Ask anyone on the street if they think it's OK for the government to be covering up health effects of their products, or willfully and knowingly sticking their heads in the sand. If that's happening, ask them if they think Congress should interested in uncovering the facts. I think you'll find yourself in a tiny minority -- which is hopefully where the those politicians who let this happen will also find themselves -- and for good reason.

MRK: "To be honest I saw something the other day that said that some, not all had their standard of living INCREASED by FEMA and other agency support. Some lived in trailers before that were built in the 1960's. Some lived in places that I wouldnt let my dog stay in. So where does that get reported?"

And I bet some learned to swim in the Katrina flood waters.

Jordan-And if the State of Louisiana had spent the some 300 hundred million dollars on the levees as they were given from Bush 1, Clinton 1-2, and GWB 1 this likely wouldnt have happened. They had known it for years that the levees were disintegrating and so far they can account for only 2 million out of 300 million. Blanco refused to comment in Congress when she was questioned on it. Now where is brother Waxman on that oversight? 300 million and they could have repaired and rebuilt the levees nearly in entirety with it. Sorry, but even us uneducated Southerners can get that math right, in our trailers, with our coon dogs on the front stoop.

Hat Trick-New rule for Louisiana... All people must learn to swim. Or better yet raise their IQ levels to the point that when someone says the worst hurricane in US history is about to hit, they leave. I noticed something in my military career, you put yourself in proximity to bad situations...generally something happens that is....Bad!

"Ignorance or even negligence, although bad, is one thing. Willful ignorance or negligence is quite another, and is inexcusable, especially from a government agency that's supposed to be promoting (not undermining) the general welfare"

That Jordan applies to dumbass mayors, governors and especially from the people when there is ample warning given. But thats where we are in the US now, the all encompassing government intervention into everything. Then the blame game when it doesnt work out because the government is and always will be inadequate to the task.

One good thing about Katrina, the new laws that were passed put it DIRECTLY onto the heads of whatever governor thats in power at the time. It is now a states problem and the US govt. will assist but not take over the situation unless there is a full declaration. E.g. Gov. of Kansas got her head handed to her by DC when she said that there werent enough trucks because they were in Iraq...Then they politely said that the only thing that had been requested by Kansas was some field radio's.

But thats politics now isnt it? Time to disband the Government Oversight Committee and put it into the hands of the committees that are responsible for that area rather than the all encompassing, lets subpoena everything Henry committee.

I read your story about Nazi generals secretly taped by British Intelligence with interest, especially the news that, contrary to later claims of total innocence, the generals knew exactly what was going on in the death camps, and precisely what was being done to millions of Jews, Poles, the sick, the aged, prisoners and so on.

Then, I clicked on your story about FEMA.

But it wasn't till I hit the Comments section that I was hit by that incredible gloating callousness, bombast, and obtuse idiocy typical of the Nazi heirarchy at their worst. On the net.

Is anyone unaware that if you weren't a Nazi, by definition, you were sub-human and deserved to die?

In your article the stupidity of FEMA was not only stuffing people into boxes which FEMA soon knew were toxic; not just heeding their lawyers and deciding NOT to warn anyone and immediately evacuate them; but to leave people to be poisoned.

A story you might expect to reads about Nazi Germany, 60-70 years ago.

The attitude once again implied that any deaths or long term illnesses suffered by the population of Louisiana could not justify the expense of doings things in any way differently. So no other decision was made but to stonewall and lie.

Were the people of Louisiana, by definition, sub-human and not worth the money to save them?

Had the population of Miami, or any of the wealthier states suffered the same disaster would the rules change radically?

If Mexico went broke again, or there was say, a huge highway to build from Texas to Canada money still is no problem, right?

To make things worse, later, knowing full well that these toxic coffins should never have been purchased, but be burned to the ground FEMA apparently resold them, as is, to unwitting buyers?

As one of your few sane commenters put it -

How did they come to buy these trailers? Come to that how did any manufacturer get past certification? I would have thought using materials that give off noxious gases was a bit of a no-no in the construction industry.

How many crimes are there in these transactions? Reckless endangerment, Criminal negligence, Homicidal negligence, Fraud? More?

But what really came through were the outraged defenders of the new imperial order. A parade, in lock step, of such perfectly ideological Nazis.

Nothing, but nothing, could draw their attention to the legal and moral issues in your story.

Is there a hurricane on the way learn to swim! claimed one imbecile.

In a hurricane and a flood? Just head out to sea a few mile then swim back? That will do it, will it?

Then leave town! Great idea unless you happen to be in a hospital. Or have no access to transport, given that it's a hurricane, during a flood, and no state ever has successfully evacuated any city as large as New Orleans...

But to new Nazis the fault lays entirely with all the inferiors, the mayor, the governors of Louisiana and Kansas, the opposition party in Congress, and of course those lazy southerners who just can't do anything right and want only to be coddled by the dreaded nanny state.

Aren't we all old enough to have heard this horseshit before? Is anyone not of the opinion that it is typical of corrupt blowhards in corrupted countries where the right way to deal with minorities is to apply malign negligence, in a passive form of righteous murder?

The surprise in visiting your site was the interest shown by so many obviously mad and barking sociopaths. With gung-ho guys like these as boosters, America has a far more serious psychiatric social problem than at any other time in history.

With all due respect Avery, you either are not in this country or you dont know how the laws work. ALL disasters are state disasters unless they federalize them. All the pissing and moaning post of the Katrina debaucle is not psychiatric disorder, its politics. Probably one in the same. I dont know where the Nazi's come into play in a disaster caused by a hurricane. No one needed to die in Katrina and the ones that paid the heed needed, didnt. They were still drinking in the bars in New Orleans as it hit. Pretty stupid. I am sure there is a psych term for it. We used to refer to it in the military as a bad case of the dumbass. Incurable disease in fact.

Louisiana is governed by Napoleonic law as a rule and it goes back to the days it was a colony of France. They do things differently there. They are for the better part control freaks and when you are told that the wave heights are at 35 feet and the levee is at 25, well you can do the math.

But this is about formaldehyde in trailers that out-gasses in heat. Its hot in Louisiana and a lot of the time in the winter too. The trailers were not a Halliburton buy, it was from the three major manufacturers or so I was told by the local FEMA rep here in Mempho. Its a common problem but generally he said they do lose the smell pretty quick. The nice lady from Tulane who is a specialist I believe in the area said open the window and let it air out. Waxman and others would have us believe that this is some sort of huge medical risk. I would say it was slight, very slight and 140 people complained that they were affected by the smells. They might be sensitive to it more than others.

In Hurricane Andrew, which I was still in the military for it wiped out my old home base which was Homestead FL. It created 30 years of garbage in 24 hours and water, rats, mice, snakes, petroleum, and all sorts of pollutants hit the streets, water and air. They were housed in tent cities during this debaucle and then Gov. Lawton Chiles as Blanco did, waited for three days to ask for federal assistance. There is a severe misconception and I warn everyone who reads this... If BF comes and you dont have your act together you are either going to die of the bug or lack of the other necessities of life. That being food, water, heat, medicines. Yes, it will get that serious. The Federal government has told the people via the NPFP that they are going to be on their own. It wont matter one whit if the hospitals are open and the CFR's are above 5%. They will be totally swamped and be in shutdown mode within days.

You also make some assertions about the construction industry. They are common items and used even in houses here. Some give off gases, some dont.

By the way, the swimming lessons are for the stupid people who wont get out of the way of something that big. You seem to think that the federal government has a responsibility to move people out of a hospital. Nope, not there UNLESS the law is followed. To take control there has to be a national emergency and there has to be a total breakdown of local and state control. I would say that happened on the first day of Katrina and then the "politics" started weighing in. Call it a psych problem if you want. Be sure to catch the news that when polled that 30% of the beach state people said they wouldnt leave if they knew a major hurricane was coming. Came out today on mynews.com. They will need those swimming lessons. Its not an imbecile saying it, its an imbecile who says its not needed.

FEMA needs to be reformed for many reasons. Mosquito borne illnesses kill over a million people in the US every year with out a natural disaster occurring..
The families affected are in our prayers.

K. King: Err... what mosquito-borne illnesses ill 1 million people in the US?

K.K-And FEMA doesnt spray for bugs unless there is a declaration and request made by a state government. Even then they would contract it out by the states vendor list.

To be honest I saw something the other day that said that some, not all had their standard of living INCREASED by FEMA and other agency support. Some lived in trailers before that were built in the 1960's.

trailers that old have had time to let the formaldehyde fully outgas, at least.

then again, noxious chemicals outgassing from building materials isn't limited to just the cheap, shoddy, semi-movable housing americans call "trailers"; they're simply more vulnerable to it because they tend to be built with much cheaper, shoddier materials, since their entire purpose is to keep the price tag low. (not that they're always sold cheap, mind you...)

but trailers are funny things --- older specimens are often noticeably better built than newer ones. provided they haven't been worn down too much in the intervening years (they're not particularly durable, cf. "general shoddiness", preceding paragraph), you may actually be better off with 1970's era trailers than brand new ones. not just because the solvents have outgassed fully, they really seem to have been better put together back then. i think it may have something to do with relative costs of labor and materials in different time periods.

(full disclosure: i lived in a 1974 trailer for over two years, until i bought my current (1947) home just over a year ago. i'm still trying to decide if it was a step up or down for me... more likely up, but it could be argued.)

weird. i could have sworn i had that first paragraph blockquoted when i submitted the previous comment... oh well.

With all due respect, M, residence was not the issue.
And whatever else you have accomplished in this life, your rhetorical volleys seem closer in style to deranged frat boy than functional human being.

On paper at least, you do persist in coming across as a stereotypical psychopath.

As a only psychopath might, you respond to the tragedy of Katrina's aftermath first with bemused estimation of the IQ's of those killed by the storm, and later add such trivializations as All the pissing and moaning post of the Katrina debaucle is not psychiatric disorder, its politics.

By "pissing and moaning" you refer to wrongful death lawsuits? An unusual description...

Once challenged to recognize the callous absurdity of your statements, you assert the obtuseness-defense, I don't know where the Nazi's come into play in a disaster caused by a hurricane.

Well M though you can't locate a single uniformed Nazi we're actually talking about a gross mentality. A privileged mentality which arbitrarily separates those who must be protected at all costs, from those who can safely and righteously be left to die because they are designated, by childish sophistry and moral indifference, to be sub-human..

But the specific disaster I referred to in my email was the Comments Section. Remember?

In particular you contributed many psychiatric gems such as -
Hat Trick-New rule for Louisiana... All people must learn to swim. Or better yet raise their IQ levels to the point that when someone says the worst hurricane in US history is about to hit, they leave. I noticed something in my military career, you put yourself in proximity to bad situations...generally something happens that is....Bad!

Really? That's as much as you learned in how many years? Damn shame, M... To waste so many years.

You elaborated further with the death-fears-the-fittest paradigm -

No one needed to die in Katrina and the ones that paid the heed needed, didnt. They were still drinking in the bars in New Orleans as it hit. Pretty stupid. I am sure there is a psych term for it. We used to refer to it in the military as a bad case of the dumbass. Incurable disease in fact.

Yes if "dumbass" means anything outside your military career it certainly applies to someone who can't get his brain to disconnect death from deserving it.

Drifting ever further off topic you introduce,

Louisiana is governed by Napoleonic law as a rule and it goes back to the days it was a colony of France. They do things differently there. They are for the better part control freaks and when you are told that the wave heights are at 35 feet and the levee is at 25, well you can do the math.

So, you think all those people died because they were control freaks who couldn't adjust to the demands of arithmetic? Not because common folk trusted the word of liars and fools who knew the the levees were inferior-quality but 'passed' as being safe to a standard they couldn't hold?; Not because the people who were hired to evacuate the population didn't budge until they were assured that they would profit?: And not because FEMA was run by a cool guy knick-named Brownie, who as Bush and the author pointed out did a heckuva job?

Drifting still further from any moral or legal argument of what a government agency IS responsible for doing rather than what you prefer it to do, you circle back -

But this is about formaldehyde in trailers that out-gasses in heat. Its hot in Louisiana and a lot of the time in the winter too. The trailers were not a Halliburton buy, it was from the three major manufacturers or so I was told by the local FEMA rep here in Mempho.

Its a common problem but generally he said they do lose the smell pretty quick. The nice lady from Tulane who is a specialist I believe in the area said open the window and let it air out. Waxman and others would have us believe that this is some sort of huge medical risk.

Who said anything about Halliburton? Are you hearing voices?

Why weren't the trailers first tested in local conditions, but purchased en masse? You steadfastly avoid connecting ANY governmental incompetence to this issue.

The trailers tested BY FEMA registered levels 75 times above acceptable standards but disregarding FEMA'S own stats you state -

I would say it was slight, very slight and 140 people complained that they were affected by the smells. They might be sensitive to it more than others.

Who was found dead in his trailer?

Well, now we know who to consult on all these matters of exotic biology and brain-science, The nice lady from Tulane who is a specialist, you believe, and you.

And we'd better just avoid those damn pesky nay-sayers like Waxman and others would have us believe that this is some sort of huge medical risk.

Seventy five percent above EPA's minimum standards constitutes an acceptable risk?

Because you say so? Oh sorry, you and this heroic lady from Tulane...

I think you have described your view of Katrina and its aftermath with exception clarity in the words,

Pretty stupid. I am sure there is a psych term for it. We used to refer to it in the military as a bad case of the dumbass.

We agree completely, Incurable disease in fact.

Avery, so whats your point? The accepted method of getting rid of one time formaldehyde gases from whatever source in a trailer is to open the window. Very long post about what you consider to be the fact of the day. No one that i have been able to find died of formaldehyde gas. Please if you have that send it along. The testing done was in a closed up trailer if I am not mistaken. Method of removal? From the Phd. at Tulane "Open the window"

So once again its the class warfare thing. Have and have nots. Your reference to deranged frat boy frankly means what? All people who were in fraternities are Nazi's. Again whats your point? I was never in a fraternity and I worked from the time I was 14 til this time. I never asked for anything from my government but a fair shake and that shake includes the right to get rich if able. It seems that there are those that think that getting somewhere in this world is a crime. It is indeed survival of the fittest. Government goes out of its way now in the US to spend and send billions for foreign aid, bailing out governments good and bad.

And I reiterate it Avery if you are not a US citizen then its not really any concern of yours now is it? Your residence would make a difference but not unless you were in a Southern state because Louisiana is by far one of the strangest places out there in the South. The Phd. at Tulane is a specialist in these things and therefore not only because I say so.

When something is broken I do always try to get it fixed. As I said before you can bitch and rant and it doesnt take away the single fact. Katrina with all of its fury was vented on the Mississippi, Alabama and Florida Coasts. The majority of the damage done in New Orleans was by flooding. Its happened I think four times in the last century. Those levees the politicals would have you believe are the Corps of Engineers. Thats completely false. They are the various parishes levees to maintain and the state in which they reside. The Federal Government sent them millions of dollars to fix it in acknowledgement of the problem and that was to raise them, beef them up and then above all make sure there was power for the pumps. 300 million down the toilet and you want me to feel sorry for them. I do, and I dont. Thats my tax money too and there is no oversight of this when there is anything other than a Republican in the White House and the Democrats have charge of Congress. Therefore your argument doesnt follow and seems to have personal tinge in it.

Brutal? You damned right I am. But in the face of that disaster down there I loaded some 20 plus large category aircraft with supplies for the place. Then I offered to go in there when no one else would with my crews to get that and the trucks offloaded that were stuck for weeks. That with only 16 hours of sleep inside of 48. So dont preach about the class warfare thing because us frat boys will pull our load every time.

As to the offer to go down there, that was declined by the Blanco administration and their airport authority. Even Fedex sent people in and they were sent back because the locals wanted to make all the money off of it. So yeah, as people died they played politics and both sides of the aisle. Aint it sweet.

No one ever deserves to die from a lightning bolt, a car accident or randomly chosen act. I dont think that anyone died from formaldehyde inhalation, but if I am wrong then prove it and move on. It sure sounds good as a bash but where is it? Even that wrongful death thing was tossed out of court this week for lack of evidence. The grand jury refused to indict and that likely is going to ensure that there will be no lawsuit reconcillation.

One other thing. Deragned is a term meaning to drive insane, not that one is insane. I am probably one of the most sane people out there because I am a realist and a centrist. I call BS just that and the whole deal from Katrina was a big pile of it. And yes, those people who stayed could have escaped but they left it up to Big Brother government to take care of and see what happened?

Avery Moore: MRK is a bit over the top at times, but so are your own comments in this thread. There was no need to bring in the Nazis. (In fact, some say that those who do so have automatically lost the argument.) I have read enough of MRK's posts to know that while he often brings a contrarian point of view to the discussion, he is not a bad person. As a case in point, he researched and provided the links which I used to petition our government to do something on behalf of the Tripoli Six (several months ago).

As did Revere and God Bless his/their irreverent soul(s). He will deny it of course but much of the pressure brought to bear was some 30,000 hits in one week to petition the government.

I've been trying to picture Dwight D. Eisenhower remember Ike? - telling the citizens of New Orleans that, after carefully reviewing the scientific evidence of that nice lady in Tulane - to screw themselves.

He would say, "Now, Look. The new rules are this: tough break: you're on your own. By the way: Learn to swim. And open your damn windows.

Or to imagine any Marine (worth the name) declare of a wounded buddy down in the dirt under enemy fire - What the hell, the guy knew the risks, and he bought one, let's leave him there to die and just bug out.

Did Ike ever really accomplish all that much, or do anything extraordinarily meritorious to place him at the top of the ranks as President? Or was Ike just lucky, not the best American of the last century?

What's your call?

And I guess the code of honor among all military personnel which dictates that you act when you see someone, anyone, civvy or not, in dire trouble - you never just wait on your ass to be ordered to grow a conscience - that doesn't apply to civilians in control-freaky, Napoleonic-Coded trailer parks in Louisiana.

Is that your view?

If all there are to contain the refugees are dangerous contraptions, ones unfit for dogs let alone human habitation - don't look for a plan B. Consult the bloody lawyers.

That's how you think it works best?

But wait. You admitted it yourself you did act, correctly, instinctively, heroically, at precisely the right damned instant, didn't you?

So why bitch at you?

The attitude of humans toward humans has changed radically and wrongly since Ike died and you appear to have bought into it..

The new mentality isn't new, it's crude, dysfunctional and dumb, because civilians are the paymasters without whom the military could not exist, nor anything else. Both the military and the population are co-dependant.

And, in theory at least, we the people are the best reason so much money is available to spend to defend against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

But as JimV points out, once wound up you seem to forget that there ever were simple guys with simple virtues like Ike, and centuries' old values, in a priceless Code, is quickly forgotten.

Instead you reiterate the new code, an indifferent, inadequate, and proudly negligent code - I warn everyone who reads this... If BF comes and you dont have your act together you are either going to die of the bug or lack of the other necessities of life. That being food, water, heat, medicines. Yes, it will get that serious. The Federal government has told the people via the NPFP that they are going to be on their own. It wont matter one whit if the hospitals are open and the CFR's are above 5%. They will be totally swamped and be in shutdown mode within days.

When a soldier goes AWOL, commits a Dereliction Of Duty, or constantly bugs out in a crisis, he gets and deserves to be court-martialed, agreed?

But when a government agency, ANY government agency, totally screws the pooch and bugs out you apply a biased and inverted set of standards. Why?

Why trash and trivialize the dead? By doing so you dishonor your flag, your country, your God and your self. That sir, I will bitch about.

Whether it is me or someone else, I guarantee you someone will call you on it.

By your own testimonial you merit great thanks for doing the right things when the moment arose to act why not remember clearly where that instinct sprang from your heart, your honor, your sense of human decency.

Remember that alone, and we have no argument.