The Soldiers of God are on the warpath. The initial forays of the godless insurgents Dawkins, Dennett and Harris have provoked the predictable counterattack. The homosexual agenda and Islamic extremism are being displaced by insidious atheist subversion:
The Rev Campbell Paget, vicar of All Saints' Church, Brenchley, for the past eight years, believes that influential atheists in the media, commerce and politics are eroding the population's freedom by clamping down on displays of religious devotion and promoting their own politically correct agenda.Former infantry officer Mr Paget, 52, said: "While many people today fear the threat of Islamic extremism to the peace and freedoms of this country, few realise the growing and, in certain key respects, far greater threat from within. (Kent and Sussex Courier)
This sounds pretty serious. Maybe the good Rev can give some examples?
Examples of such "persecutory" atheism include attempts to rename Christmas 'Winterval' and what Mr Paget calls "the dogmatic promotion of multiculturalism."
But it was the well-publicised recent row over a British Airways employee's right to wear a crucifix which brought the issue to the nation's attention.
Mr Paget said: "The Church Commissioners have a huge investment in British Airways. They started to raise question marks over that and, hey presto, within five hours British Airways changed their uniform policy completely - talk about hypocrisy."
[snip]
He continued: "Freedom of speech and freedom to practise one's own religion is being attacked these days by liberal atheists and it's going to change society unless people stand up and are counted. It's as if we're throwing away hundreds of years of toleration and I find that awful."
Bloody awful, is right. Winterval? Never heard of it, but if it's used, so what? Multiculturalism? Horrors. Get with the Taliban Program. One culture at a time. And of course the Christian community tends to have a little less toleration for some religious symbols than others. Turbans, veils and burkas, for example. They are not permitted British Airways uniformed attendants, because, well, they're not part of the uniform. Neither are the Star of David or the Crucifix. Or the Hammer and Sickle, Swastika, Bush-Cheney buttons and many other things. You can wear them under a scarf or tunic, but an insistence on wearing them for all to see is an insistence on making others aware of your religious or political affiliation. It isn't an infringement on that affiliation. It is an insistence that others see it and acknowledge it. If those outward signs of faith are so important, then don't take a job with a uniform. Uniform, as in "all dressed the same."
Toleration? Who do you think is safer? Someone who walks down a street in a T-shirt that says, "I Love Jesus," or someone who walks down the street with a T-shirt that says, "There is no God"? Let me put it another way. Which do you think more likely? That someone in a I Love Jesus shirt would be physically or verbally abused by a malevolent atheist, or someone in a There is no God shirt would be physically or verbally abused by a malevolent religious bigot?
Atheists should be surprised to hear of the hundreds of years of toleration they have suffered under. The Reverend Paget can say what he wants. We atheists aren't trying to muzzle him, although if he had the chance it's clear he'd muzzle us. My tolerance of his speech, however, does not extend to patience for it.
Stupidity always makes me impatient.
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Winterval? HMMmmmm. Never heard of it either. I rank this guy along with a lot of my "Christian" friends who would happily ram religion up my ass if they thought that I wasn't religious enough for them. Oh I am Christian but not one of those progressive types either. Anyone who believes that we aren't under attack from Islamic extremists is nuts. On the other hand they are under attack from our Christian extremists. There are just too few of us centrists to effect any change and each time there is an attack it gives cover to these people. The Anglican Church is being converted to ...something. I don't know what but you get a group with a mindset and that is one of taking over, then you start to see this kind of stuff. What is a Baptist for the better part?. Close your eyes, look at the fundamentalism of a jihadist. Then look a the fundamentalism of a Baptist on a roll. Both would convert you if they could to the faith. Both would muzzle all of us if they could.
Good post Revere.
If attendants can wear nondenominational jewellery (say, earrings) then I can't see any reason why they shouldn't be allowed to wear a similarly decorative crucifix.
Joe: Because a crucifix is not just decorative.
"Winterval" was what Birmingham council tried to rename its winter festivities almost eight years ago now. Certain people have been complaining about it ever since, as though it was an ongoing campaign or something.
So many passions in this world. All will certainly find out the truth when they exit their mortal coil.
I am that I am.
Lea: Or not.
Lea, each one of the disciples were doubters too. I dont think that any of the questions have ever really been answered, but I still believe. I also have a very open mind about it. Someone comes stomping thru the door and proves in my mind that its hooey, then I get to spend a night in the Revere Lincoln bedroom.
ON the other hand, I dont berate Revere for his views. I always think of the Scopes Monkey Trial here in Tennessee and how two friends were always telling each other they were full of shit.. But neither could prove it. They went to their graves friends and each others best protagonists.
Not berating anyone here. Each of us has lived life in our own unique ways and from that our viewpoint is formed. revere believes what revere believes, to me that is just perfect.
To be boldly honest, religions are repulsive to me. Ive spent many years studying major religions, and have come to this conclusion.
So, do we only give comments when we agree with the posted article?
Didnt mean to imply you were Lea. Its my opinion that when the doors swing open that Revere will be one of the first one's thru because of his impeccable record. Likely beat me in. On the other hand he will have to decide whether to go or not.
Yo Joe. The military doesnt let you wear your religion as part of your uniform. Violation of 35-10 in the USAF. Those crucifixes, Star of David, dried chicken foot of Wiccans, St. Christophers are all in the manual. Stuffed under the shirt near the heart where they should be. I guarantee you that woman in question knew it and it was covered in the company manual. She did it to make a point. I dont know what the new policy is, but it hasnt changed for any of the US Airlines that I am aware of. Dont look for the military to change theirs either. Might be worth your while Joe to hit the Aussie military codes for "dress codes". I think its likely you'll find they're prohibited.
Yo Joe. The military doesnt let you wear your religion as part of your uniform.
I guess I can see that as part of military discipline, but this woman was a stewardess on a commercial airline, not a soldier. Furthermore, do soldiers wear other items of jewelery? If they don't, then there's another good reason to ban crucifixes.
Airlines are not the military, but their crews operate under a quasi-military system that is inherited from the traditions of the sea. The same applies to police forces, fire brigades, EMTs, and so on, which take their cue from land-based military traditions.
Uniforms require uniformity.
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An art student in Portland Oregon was recently expelled from school for having made "disparaging remarks" about another student's religion, in the form of proclaiming his own atheism during a discussion with other students. The college officials said to him that atheism was not a protected category.
http://www.portlandmercury.com/portland/Content?oid=84436&category=22101
Clearly something stinks here, the kid's rights have been violated, and I eagerly await the lawsuit.
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A Christian student in a biology department some years ago, was told he wouldn't qualify for his PhD unless he professed "belief in" as well as knowledge of, evolution. For the most part the leftie liberals sided with the university, which was surprising given how things would go had the belief system variables been reversed.
Clearly his rights were also violated; "knowledge of" is a reasonable standard, "belief" is a matter of personal conscience.
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The United States Constitution begins, "We the people...", it does not begin "We the tribe..."
"..Get with the Taliban Program. One culture at a time.." Predictable nonsense from atheists as ignorant of the Taliban as they are of Christianity. Last week the Taliban disemboweled and quartered a man a region of Afghanistan they controlled for the crime of teaching girls. Yet they are supposedly comparable to Christian fundamentalists. How foolish.
Carl: It wasn't directed at you. You are obviously with the Program.
What a BS statement. There are many baptists in many forms just as there are in any religious sect. No sect is immune from stupidity.
So a fideist form of Christian. How could someone prove it's hooey to you? You weren't argued into accepting it based on rational arguments so what makes you think you would accept proof that it's hooey?
Why haven't you accepted Islam?
So you actually think there are material doors that will open as if entering a house? His impeccable record? What does that mean? He's human like everyone else. No better no worse.
The secret to happiness is: Let your interest be as wide as possible, and let your reactions to the things and persons that interest you be as far as possible friendly rather than hostile -- Bertrand Russell
Let not the simplicity of life be buried by the intellect
-- Lea
Yet [the Taliban] are supposedly comparable to Christian fundamentalists. How foolish.
Right, because after all, the Taliban blew up a government building in Oklahoma City, dragged Matthew Sheppard behind a pickup truck until he was dead and mutilated, detonated explosives or committed arsons in women's health clinics beyond counting, shot Dr. Barnett Slepian and nine others, plotted to blow up Congress using a suitcase bomb, and sent fake anthrax letters to Keith Olbermann and other journalists, and poisoned cookies to the more liberal wing of the US Supreme court.
Oh, wait... Those were the right-wing white-guy type terrorists, the ones we never hear about. Yeah, I think there's a comparison there. One type of violent religious extremist is pretty much the same as any other; once you get down into sufficiently vile and depraved behaviour, which particular shade of vile and depraved stops mattering a whole lot.
Interrobang; You might want to consider your numbers - Oklahoma city had nothing to do with religion as far as is known - true it was 'revenge" for Waco but based more on white supremacist type arguments (ZOG etc.) not religion per say. That leaves you with the murder of a handful of abortionists by shooting, a few of bombs at abortion clinics linked to Christian religious extremism and a handful of other uncompleted plots. To say that is comparable with the Taliban is beyond silly. The Taliban have murdered thousands in the name of religion, blown up UN World heritage sites in the name of relgion, daily murder persons within their region of control for relgious deviation (e.g., the schoolteacher I mentioned in my original post). This is not to mention the Saudi Islamists that murdered about three thousand Americans in the name of religion. The thousands murdered by Islamist extremists is comparable to a handful of violent incidents resulting in murders committed by Christian extremists only in the mind of persons consumed with a blind hatred of Christianity or lacking in methodological skills.
carl: I think Interrobang is right on target. The Taliban impulse (let's call it that for shorthand) is not limited to Islam. We see it among the ultra-Orthodox Jews, Hindus and of course the long, bloody history of Christianity, just to name a few. The fact that the impulse manifests itself differently in different time periods doesn't mean it isn't there, nor is it a matter of numbers. Said another way, what has changed about Christianity, per se, that prevents it? Crusades take various forms and appear to the crusaders differently than to the crusaded upon. I'll let you surmise what I am hinting at.
People differ about this, but the differences aren't silly. Trivializing the differences and failure to recognize they might exist contributes to the problem. In that sense I think you very much "with the Program."
With respect, I was speaking about actual, real differences in our time, comparing numbers of actual dead bodies now killed by Jihadists wherein the murderer claims to kill the victim to further a religious objective. I was not speaking of Christian Crusades from a thousand yeas ago. I was also not talking about an alleged potential (e.g., if Reverand Billy Bob ran the U.S. he would execute all the "X" group). That potential is at least problematic in that I don't know of any popular or widespread belief amongst groups generally accepted as Christian rushing off to murder Muslims, Jews, Atheists, or ACLU Executives for religious (or other) reasons. I don't think comparing areas wherein girls cnnot even go to school (Taliban regions of Afghan), countries where rape must be witnessed by two males willing to testify to be prosecuted (Pakistan), or where women cannot be seen in the company of any male not related (Saudi) to American Christian fundamentalists is accurate. I don't think it is even in the same realm of the universe.
Joe, no jewelry may be worn. A watch that will not draw attention to ones wrist may be worn. No Rolex.
As for the crews on airlines each and every manual I have seen and there's a few of them describe specifically that no religious items may be worn in a visible manner while engaged in the performance of their duties.
She wants to violate the system. Okay, do it. If they modify it thats okay too. There are places on this earth that she would be slapped to the ground and have the hell beat out of her for wearing it, and she wold under their laws be due it. Right? Not a chance but when on the British plane, do as your employers ask. Part of the job just as the military. Under CRAF operations all of those people are subject to immediate inclusion into the military. They give them a new uniform and yes thats a draft.
Re: GH and Hooey. If some guy came by and parted the seas, stopped an inbound inevitable nuke attack on Israel, stood on the Temple Mount and split the Mosque asunder. Yep, that would put me right on in there. If on the other hand incontrovertible proof existed that Jesus was nothing more than one gifted individual and we are all still waiting on the arrival of Jehovah, then I would have to sit in the bleachers for a while.
Matthew Shepard? Very strange, just as Laramie was. They had to have known they were going to be caught.
G510-Yep, and they should sue because that is an individuals rights that were violated. Not a group.