The $14,615 Head-Spinning Workout

It looks like a Victorian time machine.

Every time I've seen this ad over the last few years, I've felt awestruck by the chutzpah of its manuafacturers. It's practically supernatural. They should take Randi's JREF challenge.

I think there is a PhD out there waiting to be plucked for the individual willing to research and write up the links between anyone dumb enough to buy this and those that believe in ID, UFO's, Kent Hovind, miracles and god(s).

I know little about biomechanics, but from a power output standpoint, wouldn't this stress the body a lot? I mean, running for an hour is already exhausting to many people. I am thinking of tendons and protein breakdown.

Four, count 'em, four minutes per day.

This reminds me of the scene in the movie There's Something About Mary, where a character is talking about his exercise video, Seven Minute Abs.

Jim, I hope in your pursuit of education you may realize that some things are not as you think. The world is spinning and changing at a rapid rate. Think about the food we eat. How has that changed? What were the experts saying 20 years ago? How about what has been taught to us over the years? Let me tell you, this world is all about the almighty dollar. That dollar you spent aquiring your education puts you at the mercy of cementing the past and ignoring the future. What I mean by that is you seem to place a higher priority on what you have learned as oppossed to opening your mind to what can be learned. Imagine a world where what goes up doesnt ALWAYS come down.

Some things to consider:

Startling new observations in Quantum Physics suggest ParticlesThat

1) arrive at their destination before they leave their starting point

2) travel in infinite multiples of the Speed of Light

3) and behave differently when observed which further suggests

a much greater influence of the human mind on the Way of Things than previously suspected. This last Phenomenon has been alter-natively described as Prayer or Positive Thinking

The first generations of Human Thought deified all natural things, be it The Sun or The Weather; each aspect of Nature had its own well-defined Patron or Power to be specified and revered.

This was to change. Rational Thought and Science ended the Spiritual Years, replacing them with the Secular. It was presumed In the 18th and 19th centuries that we had learned most of what was to know about ourselves and our Universe. Newton Rules! How Satisfied we were: Man, the Pinnacle of Creation! Man, the All Knowing!

The absurdity of this was driven home to me (forcefully) when I saw the first images produced by the Most Magical Hubble Telescope.

We can now literally look back in Time to the near-beginnings Of what we know as our Universe. Events that occurred billions of years ago are being observed as their images arrive - at the paltry Speed of Light, once thought to be the highest obtainable velocity.

You know those points of light in the sky we call stars?

Theyre GALAXIES.

I can imagine a generation of instruments that will allow us to See MUCH further back to what? The Big Bang? The Hand of God?

The Halls of Asgard?

We here on Earth would do well not to forget the unimaginable Scale of Things, and our own importance in relation to it.

Whether we use the grain-of-sand analogy or the hundred-billion-galaxies-each-containing-a-hundred-billion-stars, were not really so much-of-a-much, after all. And doesnt that make you feel better already?

That was very moving, Brian. A most excellent piece of absolutely meaningless arm-waving and posturing and Gratuituous Capital Letters and jabbering about how little we insignificant humans truly know, or ever could know, about the universe. You've firmly made your point, which is that no one knows a damned thing about anything, neatly opening the door for hucksters and scam artists to lie and expect not to be challenged on those lies.

Now, for your next trick, tell us exactly how this $14,000 hunk of metal can reduce the time needed to make significant cardiovascular fitness gains to just four minutes at a pop. See, I know all sorts of cross-country skiers and marathon runners and cyclists, and one thing they have in common is that the best in each group put in a lot of time in the saddle or on skis on the road, whereas the ones who do a total of less than a half-hour a week are invariably out of shape.

Here's a hint as to how you might proceed: The revolutions you note having taken place in food science are rooted in observations, experiments, reproducible findings, and testable claims, not in the slinging around of jargon; you can't just say "trans fat omega-3 long chain protein catabolism undercooked adipocyte breakdown force lose weight in five minutes" and not apply any of these terms in their proper contexts. (You also mention quantum mechanics; unbeknownst to most, this one of strongest, most tried-and-true theories physicists have, and your brief treatment of it is both ignorant and misleading.)

Then we have the ROM Machine, sold on a site by semiliterate people so confident in the "science" behind their claims that they are unwilling to go to the trouble of putting their names anywhere on the Web page.

If all you're going to do is babble on about how the cardiovascular system works differently than everyone says if only you engage all sorts of muscle fibers simultaneously, rather than back up what you say with a reference, you may as well go back to your charlatan's cave, where you can continue telling yourself and the one slack-jawed person with cash in a hundred thousand who will listen that skeptics are constitutively wrong, because once you become an expert you become an idiot.

Put another way: Experts can be wrong, but in order to establish as much, you have to propose a valid alternative. Saying "everyone's a skeptic until they try the machine themselves and then they're won over" is useless for two reasons: One, there are no data points here (it's like saying "everyone who opens his heart to believing in God knows He's there" and two, even if it were true that a thousand people lined up and said "I used the ROM machine and it made me fit in 4 minutes a day!" we'd still need to establish this empirically. I know all sorts of teenagers who are fitter than the average adult, and they also whack off a lot more, but I wouldn't believe anyone who said that masturbation builds cardiovascular fitness and muscle tone.

That's right; all anyone here asks is scientific support for what the ROM makers say about aerobic exercise.

I guess I Must be Dreaming.

So let's start over on this oh so very important subject matter of a $15,000 dollar hunk of metal. Jim pointed out how unbelievable the comparison to the treadmill was. My first question would be is he doubting the results for the ROM or is he doubting the results for the treadmill? Are we buying into the fact that after an hour on a treadmill that we don't have any after effect (burning of additional calories) or do we? If we do then why is it so hard to believe the points made by the ROM company. Let's talk about "hucksters" & "scam artists" steering us in the wrong direction with fraudulant claims. Are you familar with the United States of America's prescription drug policy? Talk about "hucksters" and "scam artists". Who's out there setting them straight? This machine was first produced in 1990 and sells for an outstanding amount of money. So what your telling me is that for 16 years this company has been scamming us out of some very hard earned dough? If folks didn't have results with this machine I think the word would be out. More along the "huckster" and "scam" line. Ya buying what the food & drug (there's an oxymoron) administration is selling you? How about climbing that wonderfull food pyrmid? You up for that? We've been mislead and improperly taught for hundreds of years and now some company simply states "try it" four minutes flat and you'll be a believer. I'll find out on Tuesday what the buzz is all about and let ya know. Meanwhile let's discuss your workout buddies and lord knows that if and that's a big IF you want to be at the TOP of your particular athletic I don't recall the ROM claiming you could train & win in the olympics.

"So let's start over..."

No, let's not. You're great at asking questions, notably bad at addressing them.

You haven't told me, Brian, that the ROM vendor isn't a scammer; you've only pointed out other potential sources of dishonesty (the goverment's always an easy target). You're like a young child who, after being caught with toys that don't belong to him and asked for a non-theft-related explanation, blubbers that Joey and Timmy and Matty all steal candy bars and comic books stuff ALL THE TIME.

The "food pyramid" includes recommendations based on actual epidemiological and nutritional research. It's undergone at least one major revision since its inception. More important, no one is charging people $15,000 for it and supporting its marketing with a bunch of bullshit.

The guy who makes ROM Machines is a liar, and he knows it, so I don't feel bad pointing this out. He's counting on enough people being sufficiently incurious or stupid about his claims to not investigate him, and he's probably right. That doesn't mean I'm not going to laugh at him and call a spade a spade.

"Are we buying into the fact that after an hour on a treadmill that we don't have any after effect (burning of additional calories) or do we? If we do then why is it so hard to believe the points made by the ROM company."

We can assess the lingering rise in BMR after prolonged exercise on a treadmill (or anyone else). The "points" made by the ROM company and the cybersquatting dingaling behind it are not supported by science and are directly contradicted by them in many cases. Live with it.

Well well looks like someone got up on the wrong side of the science couch this morning. So shall we examine all that is supported by science? I'm so very sorry you didn't concour with my very relevant question in regards to the gentleman who took homage with the ROM claim. As far as pointing out others dishonesty all I will say in regards to that is WAKE UP! First we will look at the facts in America. Since you stated that I was good at asking questions (but you also said...yada, yada, yada). How are we doing in regards to obesity in this country? How are we doing in regards to exercise in this country? Poor would be an understatement. Piss poor is the way I would hope you would describe it. I have no doubt when I say for an absolute fact that the ROM vendor is not a scammer. Simply put (can you handle simple)with 92% of americans failing to exercise the reccommended amount and also filling their diets with the reccommended amount of scientific backed food portions we have become a FAT nation.(Good for the economy)I have no doubt based upon the little knowledge I have (and the scammers at ROM) that IF those 92% could have access to a ROM machine and they used it 4 minutes a day 6 days a week that their cardiovascular condition would improve and if it didn't they could seek out some fine professional doctor who would reccommend one of his finest and scientifically approved surgeries. That would play right into the governments hands to keep the ECONOMY humming. Ever notice at the State of the Union address the first words out of our presidents mouths is....our ECONOMY is strong!! Going back to 1992 EVERY, let me repeat for emphasis, EVERY (SOTU, state of the union) address starts with that very phrase. In fact a certain president ran with a simple little slogan when he ran for re-election..."It's the ECONOMY stupid". Now with that being said none of the scientific facts you want to trot out can overcome that we as a nation have been lied to in every sense of the word and YOUR education proves that. Live with that.

My my Brian, if anyone seems to have his panties in a bunch, it would appear to be you.

It appears that one of your major arguments in the last message is that if people don't buy the ROM it will help the economy, and what's good for the economy is good for the country (and we've all been hoodwinked to keep the fat flowing so to speak). It seems to me that if a lot of people bought the ROM a certain segment of the economy (mainly the ROM company) would be doing well, but the point that was made is that there is no proof whatsoever that the ROM will do what its manufacturer claims, namely provide the equivalent of a long term cardio workout in just four minutes. It doesn't matter if 2% or 92% of the population is in need of exercise as far as whether or not ROM is effective. Is it better than doing nothing? Sure, I imagine it is, but then so is repeatedly lifting gallon jugs of water, and you can buy an awful lot of jugs and water for a whole mess of people for $15k.

Do we know everything? No. Does that mean that we know nothing? No. Does it mean that we should assume the opposite of what we have learned and verified through experiment will be supplanted by the opposite? No.

It amazes me how people will claim that because we don't know everything then any crazy hypothesis may be true, our educations are suspect, and that we're fools not to jump on the bandwagon. And yet, these very same people will take full advantage at every oppurtunity to avail themselves of all the good things which science and education has wrought over the prior centuries, from antibiotics to gasoline engines to the Internet. Geez, you'd think they wouldn't be such ingrates even if it prevented them from wringing the last buck from a sucker somewhere.

If it's true what Don Juan said in Tales of Power, that "The basic difference between an ordinary man and a warrior is that a warrior takes everything as a challenge while an ordinary man takes everything either as a blessing or a curse,"then color me ordinary as the next guy.

A wise person once said, "Know thyself."

How about this from The Book of Survival, "To live through an impossible situation, you don't need the reflexes of a Grand Prix driver, the muscles of a Hercules, the mind of an Einstein. You simply need to know what to do."

When it comes to buying a ROM don't listen to the experts, don't buy into the sales hype...just trust that you'll simply know what to do... and by god have enough cash.

If you believe Jim in his thinking that somehow I implied buying one of these would hurt the economy then you (and drag him) need to go back and re-read it. Our economy dictakes our every decision and it's sad they we allow ourselves to get dragged around by the nose. Whether it's "the experts-you Jim" or "the dreaded government" or some schlep who had special teenage skills that envisioned him to build the ROM we all need to take a spell from ourselves and take a leap of faith maybe like the hype said.

Then we'd know in the gut what would be the right thing for ourselves based upon what we've learned in our own experience not what we read in a blog or web-site or even listening to some mislead so-called expert.

Read some of the opinions from Dr. Mark Hyman on the state of our healths as human beings and how we're being mislead by science, the opinion of science and the so-called facts of science. The good in all can be smeared and pasty while the ugly may rear it's head from time to time but it's time that is at the heart of this discussion. So.......let's talk about time...time...time. 4 minutes..isn't it about time?

Then we'd know in the gut what would be the right thing...

Well, that explains it right there. Brian wants you to think with your gut. I say it's better to think with your mind.

Welcome to Idiot America. Brian will be seating you now.

Brian, although your conspiracy theories are vaguely entertaining, and possibly not 100% off the mark, they are entirely irrelevant. In your outburst posted today at 3:48 p.m. you are in effect arguing that the only choice for the 92% of Americans who currently don't exercise (a number you probably pulled out of your ass) is to continue doing nothing or get a ROM machine. This is what philosophers call a false dilemma. There are many other choices besides "Be fat and unhealthy" and "Buy a piece of crap from a scammer." For example, you can spend $75 on a pair of walking or running shoes, or a little more on a gym membership (which most people don't use). Dumping $14,000 on a home machine, even if it could do what the liars who make it say it can do, would be stupid. You might as well say that an unemployed person with a master's degree in engineering has only two choices in a healthy economy: Stay poor, or get a job as a greeter at Wal-Mart.

You keep dancing around a very simple question. I understand that your entire purpose is to obfuscate with doomsday talk and sling around a limitless number of smelly red herrings, but the fact remains is that you refuse to tell me how four minutes a day gives a suitable aerobic workout. All of your talk -- about people's self-reports, about how the government wants us fat, about all of the people who would be better off doing four minutes a day then zero -- amounts to exactly nothing.

So I ask you once again: Where is the evidence that four minutes a day on the ROM builds cardiovascular fitness to the same extent 25-45 minutes of "conventional" exercise?

(Jim, given the renaissance of this thread, I'd ask permission to move it to the top, with a current date stamp, and a new "prologue" explaining why it was bumped up).

Nano bacteria would be a good place to start. I mean, who'd of thought those tiny little bastards could do all that damage. In such a short period of time. Were just scratching the service of what we know....case in point

New Evidence on Infection as Chronic Disease Trigger Published, Debated by World-Class Scientists

TAMPA, FL -- Jan. 24, 2007 Nanobac Pharmaceuticals Inc. announces new evidence that may help solve one of the great puzzles of 21stcentury medicine was published today in a special section of the Journal of Investigative Medicine. It features leading scientists in the field brought together by The American Federation for Medical Research and the American Physiological Society. Is chronic disease triggered by an infection? New evidence comes from scientists at NASA, Mayo Clinic, and Nanobac Pharmaceuticals who pioneered investigations into infectious calcifying particles. A condition known as calcification occurs in most diseases on the leading cause of death list and in illnesses such as kidney, gallbladder and prostate stones. Calcification is also linked to chronic inflammation in atherosclerosis and end-stage renal disease... [more...]

I'm sure you read this new report on this facinating subject but will the new evidence prove that 4 minutes on a ROM will self destruct a common blog thread? Is that what 20 years from now we will be saying...new evidence shows H.I.T. is the training of the 21st century.

So is it the false claim of time or the price that is the real juice of the matter. I mean the world has been ripped off 29.99 at a time but most don't have a problem with that and I personally feel if you don't have the cha-ching for the machine you shouldn't be allowed to comment honestly. Is that poor rich guy getting hook winked keeping you up at nights or the fact you can't afford to ride the world's most expensive cardio/amusement park machine?

Think of it as a reverse mortgage on your work out carear. It's very expensive in the first few minutes but as the ride continues you get more and more financial satisfaction thereby resulting in lower stress which then helps the heart. Gotta buy that right?

92% did not come from my ass but you can kiss 99% of my ass. Keeping 1% for the wife. Take a trip to your local eating establishment and look around. Pick out how many folks are doing TIME. Committment to the task. I'm also fairly sure that at this point I've answered your question and no I'm not the "Dancing with the Stars" replacement either. It is a far more accomplishable workout for the vast majority of the "Sportscenter...30 second USA" and that is the litmis test boys. Wrap er up I'll take one.

(Jim, given the renaissance of this thread, I'd ask mother may I, move it to the middle with a yester year stamp, and a note to the Stooges that someone is ripping them off).

and really guys is it that tough to understand? their 4 beats your 45. 10 to 1 and for me to finish this tell me what part from the ROM company is true in the comparison workout (the GRIND) then we will clearly understand what your not getting. thanks for playing almost medical jeopardy.

Brian, thanks for not answering the basic questions once again and instead spouting off your little "we don't know everything therefore anything is likely" diatribe.

So is it the false claim of time or the price that is the real juice of the matter. - Brian

For the most part I don't really care how people spend their money. Some people might look at a Rickenbacker 4003 bass guitar and say $1500 is a waste of money while others might say it's a bargain. I'd only get upset if RIC claimed that you could learn how to play the 4003 like a pro in just 4 minutes. Even if they said that, I feel it is still up to the consumer whether or not he'd want to plunk down the cash, but as someone who has played the instrument for many years I feel it is my right (and almost my obligation in respect to a newbie) to inform potential purchasers that the claim is a bunch of BS. I'd challenge them to offer some evidence of their claim, and if all they could muster was a lot of hand waving and whining about how science hasn't yet produced The Big Book With All the Answers to Everything and Then Some, I'd call them charlatans, too.

At no point have you ever offered even the slightest bit of evidence that it is possible to glean a complete cardio workout from this machine in 4 minutes. All you have ever done here is claim that it is so and called others naive (or worse) because they didn't buy into the sales pitch, but instead said "Where's the beef?" In that regard, your claims should not be taken any more seriously than those of either a wild-eyed bum shouting on the street corner about his intracranial implants courtesy of the CIA, or those of popular televangelists telling us that 9/11 was "our fault" because we strayed from god's path as they define it.

Brian asks everyone to be skeptical. I think that this is good advice in general. People should be skeptical of dubious claims that sound too good to be true. They should be skeptical of specious, self-promoting logic. And they should certainly be skeptical of a company whose apparent owner has a bad habit of typosquatting on popular domain names (catching misspellings for his own profit). I suggest they check out http://www.arb-forum.com/domains/decisions/690841.htm
They will note that the Respondent is ROMFAB (c/o Alf Temme)
of North Hollywood, CA, which is the manufacturer of the ROM (and Alf himself has signed a few of the company's web pages).

But the funniest thing about all of this is that this morning I received the Winter issue of the USOC Olympic Coach e-magazine. And wouldn't you know it, there was an article on human energy systems, the durations for each, and how these related to various sports. I guess those USOC coaches don't know crap because aerobic energy was pegged at over 4 minutes duration. Too bad they don't know about ROM. Then coaches and physiologists like Jack Daniels could get Ryan Hall and Deena Kastor on a ROM for 4 minutes per day for some serious marathon training instead of logging all those "inefficient" miles.

Jim I'm fairly certain at this point you can't read. But you must know how otherwise how could you know all you know. Let me get this straight...I'm seriously considering training for the Olympics...I pick up a ROM and forgo any other training...except for lounging for 20 some hours per day in front of the TV munching on some chips, beef sticks and my latest copy of the Olympic e-mag. Hmmm... those so uninformed folks trainging so hard when I can do that in only for minutes a day. I just finished reading (that I can do...and form my own opinion)the ROM site and low and behold I can't find where it states that to be a top athlete this is all I need. Please reference the page and or article that states that.

I really don't mind you feeling all high and mighty to inform the poor schlobs...beware the ROM is coming...beware ALF is right behind you stealing your wallet.

Here are my scientific facts Jim. I have a friend who owns one of these who used to teach aerobics all day. Now we haven't discussed the benefits of that but she is one fit and trim gal. But she no longer teaches aerobics. The only thing she's been using for 3 years is (hold your breath) yeah you guessed it the ROM. Now she is no scientist and she doesn't own stock in ROM and hell she don't even have a pet named ALF what she does have is proof (to her) that it only takes her 8 minutes a day (she considers herself a super athlete) (maybe along the lines of the late great runner Jim Fix who's latest book is very much overdue...what was he doing while dreaming up chapter 2...we will let Paul Harvey tell the rest of that story) 3 to 4 times per week. Thats it, oh wait she also massages 2 to 3 clients per day so I'm sure she gets a burn from that.

Also I know several folks who've actually own gyms with this being the only piece of equipment to use and not only are they believers (and not scientists, or professors just simple folks who couldn't do the GRIND) but so are their thousands of members.

Now I ask you what proof do you have.

Let's see we have scientific proven research that 45 minutes a day will do the trick. Why oh why doesn't this nation stay in shape then. Once again Jim were not talking about Olympic feats here because correct me if I'm wrong but your Olympic mythical athletes aren't just doing 45 minutes a day are they? Certainly to perform at the top or near the top or for the rocky top your gonna need a little more than that.

In shape? Is the food we eat...yep poorly advised by a poorly informed group of people (no government conspiracy theorey here) How about our exercise programs? THEY DON'T WORK. No they don't. 45 minutes ain't getting the job done. How about another 15. Maybe if I do it twice a day 90 minutes surely then I could drink Jack or take a pill. Wait maybe that will be the answer we come up with. ROM after all stands for "Really old medicine" take a pill for your ill's. Hell a world class athlete trained for a heavyweight title fight and fooled us all by skipping training and letting pills do the work. If your up on your sports (is running a sport) you'll know who and who he fought. Just a hint he's world famous.

So my controlled study group is ROM owners or ROM gym owners and I have not tried this machine (although I do have the cha-ching for it) it has peaked my interest.

Why has it you so lovingly ask? Because 12 years ago I had a health crisis leaving me on crutches and using a cane for the better part of 10 months. Now let me tell you try as hard as I could I just couldn't finish that marathon. When you go through something like this at age 34 (especially when the medical community was rushing to win the medical jeopardy game) you get simpler goals. Like walking. Yes walking. Thats what Dr. Doctor told me. 30 to 45 minutes a day and of course take these pills to cure your ills. 12 years later I can tell you unequivacally that there are people out there that this machine is a godsend.

What else is new. I back the ROM. I back the continued research of nano-bacteria particles because those poor schlobs took a severe beating trying to get THAT off the ground. Please Jim tell me why I'm off base there. We've had hundreds of years of scientific fact to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that this could not be true. Can't be true. Jim....it can't be true...all we know...all we've learned...all we believe please tell me how I'm good at asking questions bad at forming them please insult me a few more times...that'll prove your point but wait you don't have to prove anything Mr. bad domain Alf who's only in it for the money (if that were true it would only cost $29.99) has it all to prove. But ONCE AGAIN the proof is in the pudding.

So now tell me how as a NATION has the myth of 45 minutes worked for us and how has it helped lower health care costs or prescription cost. Please Please.

What we have is a funked up system that feeds the beast. And your not helping.

Some of us don't have to step in a steaming pile of shit before we recognize it for what it is. And we also don't waste 4 minutes making up our minds.

Brian, I'm pretty sure if we keep asking you the same question and you keep responding at great length with non-answers, you'll eventually produce the combined works of Shakespeare. But we still won't know how a ROM Machine defies firmly established principles of exercise physiology, because you're hiding that from us.

You state that the ROM Machine doesn't apply to potential Olympians as if we should understand this out of the gate, but why not? If it can do for the average couch potato in 4 minutes what convential methods can only do in ten times that duration, wouldn't an Olympian still become a world-beater on much less work than he or she puts in now? Evenb the best in the world still have two lungs and a heart, and the same mitochondrial enzymes as you and me.

You also seem to think someone here has claimed that people in America are getting adequate levels of exercise as it is. I assure you that this is not the case. We all know America is a nation of lardasses. What we are saying, implicitly, is that selling them all $14,000 pieces of shit is not the solution. Nor is selling them $14,000 machines that are actually useful. Of course, until you can come up with something better, and preferable far less anecdotal, than "I know one fit gal who used to teach aerobics but now just uses a ROM machine and does massage."

Theere are a couple of sad things about your rambling. One is that on some level it is well-intentioned and you come close to making some very valid points. The other is that someone has tricked you into thinking you need one of these fucking things. I suggest you talk to some qualified, objective rehab specialists and sharp physical therapists and find out something else you can do to bring yourself back to where you want to be despite your physical difficulties without dumping that much dough into a scammer's hands. And believe me, cybersquatting is now the last refuge of the bald-faced, uncreative douche bag.

Sorry Jim just read your a ZAPPA fan. How could you not love the ROM? I mean Frank was sooooooo up on everything and soooooooo brillant, beyond stars brillant. He'd be a ROM backer today.

Hey Mr. Bill did you use your head or your gut before not stepping into that steaming pile of shit.

Clear as mud

a ROM Machine defies firmly established principles of exercise physiology

it's those damn firmly established that you cling to that I oppose that you have trouble with.

and Kembe I bet I could pick you out of a crowd now.

and let's change the discussion for a moment to the previously mentioned nano bacteria subject that is the heart of my backwards arguement.

How can that be?

That's right it can be which is the truth for the ROM it can be.

However stick to the tried and true until they change the tried and true then you'll back that because it has weight and merit and it was proved. (funny how that'd work)

It amazes me that we will spout off about using milk jugs and buying running shoes and that is what we can do cheap cheap cheap but hey this piece of shit cost a fortune and only an idiot would purchase it.

Have ya thought for a moment about this...

How has this machine that is TREMDOUSLY over priced stayed on the market for 17 years? How is it when company after company falls off the map does this company continue to produce these? Why better yet are their sales at an all-time high? It used to be only $10k but that must not of made your head spin.

Why is it someone who believes in the tried and true is right and someone who believes and has results be whacked.

I suggest you talk to some qualified, objective rehab specialists and sharp physical therapists and find out something else you can do to bring yourself back to where you want to be despite your physical difficulties without dumping that much dough into a scammer's hands.

I personally have my results. I currently use an infrared sauna which boasts the claim that 30 minutes is the equivelent of running 6 miles. Now how many miles do you need to run to get your heart rate up? Do you run for the muscular effect or the heart benefit? If I an lay in a sauna and get my heart rate up and sweat profusely does this mean that I'd whip ya in a race? Qualify for the Olympics? The scammers in the paragraph above are the PT and objective???? rehab specialist??? No they failed miserably. Define objective. Does that exist in a medical setting. You probably believe when you walk through the hospital door your a patient don't you? Nope your a customer and they have all your little belief's at their disposal. Sorry but in the year 2007 your thoughts of a scammer stop at the $15,000 dooor. Mine start at a much much higher level one that you can't comprehend because it's dollars above your head.

Billion dollar rip-offs you'll back. But a $15,000 machine with outlandish claims... that's just to much.

Sorry the Health Care industry is a TRILLION dollar industry...my bad.

And the answer to the question of why the ROM is still on the market today????????????????

It works.

"and Kembe I bet I could pick you out of a crowd now."

Huh. You must be as much of a mastermind detective as you are a physiology maven; I was certain that the moniker "Kevin Beck" would conceal my true identity, but I guess I done screwed up. Damn nanogoverment 92% nonexercising billion doller healthcare industry grassy noal hiding mother fucker's, how can you ask for proof of ROM when all you need to know is OTHER PEOPLE ARE MAKING MONEY AND THATS THAT YOU JCKASS

Keep pounding your fist on the tray table, Brian, and screaming "IT WORKS BECAUSE I SAY IT DOES!" No one will notice you can't actually offer any evidence, and we'll all lose sight of the fact that you are, in effect, claiming to have climbed to the moon without supplemental oxygen. Although in your case...

and I thought that was you the bald-faced, uncreatice douche bag was you. Can't handle a little give and take. Would you be happier if I kissed your ass and said your so right kev...you the man. Way to piss on that ROM because to be poor and a blogger is the way to go.

and no I don't pound on a table with my fist screaming It works because I say it does? Haaarumph!

Have I tried it? Let's read nitwit or are you the king of the stooges. I guess I'm not a slave to my education that was shoved down my throat those oh so many years ago. Your right Kevin. You are correct. Just failed to mention that.

Where are you on hot topics with a trickle bit more importance?

Are you up on Brain Trust: The Hidden Connection Between Mad Cow and Misdiagnosed Alzheimer's Disease
by Colm A. Kelleher Now there's a fun one to debate. but wait you have scientific history on your side. HAHA

How's your finances? Not well I pressume by you taking so much to beat down the beast called ROM. Wanna tackle the coming Generational Storm or is that gonna cost to much?

You see I've asked hundreds of questions but the main reply I get from you challenged stooge wanna-be's is that I'm out of my head. A loon. See ya in 20 years. We will shake hands (if your alive) and you'll both say...damn didn't see that one coming. I guess you were right. I hear that all the time so you can start now or wait 20 years. Once again if your alive.

Tell me a bed-time story Kevin & Jim. Why are all the honey bees dying? Now thats some scary shit there.

brian, are you using a random word generator to write you comments?

This is really getting kind of funny. Here's the exchange so far:

Sb: The emperor has no clothes.
Brian: There's clothes! Damn good ones!
Sb: Show us the clothes.
Brian: I'm telling ya, there's clothes! I know someone who's actually touched them!
Sb: We don't see any clothes.
Brian: Oh, you think you're so smart- your fancy college degrees have blinded you! Too much readin' made your eyes bad! Looka dem clothes!!
Sb: You haven't offered any proof that the emperor isn't bare naked.
Brian: 92% of the emperor is covered in the finest raiment! Look, here's an article stating that people who wear clothes don't get as cold as those who are naked, therefore, he must be wearing clothes. You are fools!

I only have one question left: Brian, whose sock puppet are you?

How's your finances?

Now there's a new low in this thread. Um, you do know he gets paid to blog here, right? And those books on the sidebar, those are his?

Well, one is Kevin's, one is mine...

But to paraphrase Firesign Theater, I guess we're all bonobos on this bus.

Shelly new term just in ---tounge in check---

I could be mean and point something out but I won't.

Books? What are those something you read?

Anybody here get the feeling that you are communicating with a computer program?

Ya know Brian, if some wheels you put onit yu'd have a 15k baby carriage exerciser.

Hell wheels, I thought for 15K surely the thing converts into a yugo or some ford product, so I can drive the clampets around in it.

The results are in from the 4 minute workout. And I agree with Jim, it's a headspinner. Very difficult workout that I'm still feeling nearly 3 hours later. I was an avid weightlifter in my 20'S and whoa nelly this is the truth. My son who is an athlete was sold after the leg workout. As a track sprinter he said hands down most difficult workout he's ever been through.

So the debate will continue but I have no doubts after one workout that there is a place for the ROM. The quick gyms of the world are a good idea that way the use and cost can be shared. Incredible workout, I'm really quite speechless in regards to how hard it is.

Young and old could certainly use it and the highly trained athlete would certainly boost their performance with this. If someone would try the machine and then say wow what a rip-off or way great workout that's what one would expect in a review. Have a great day I know I am (burning calories).

As a public service, I am writing a proposal for a one year empirical study of the benefits of high intensity short workouts using the ROM machine vis a vis conventional methods for cardiovascular, flexibility and resistance training. I would appreciate helpful suggestions, especially from skeptical individuals, including any questions you would like to see addressed and conclusively answered by this study.

Robert G. Pfefferkorn, PhD
retired research scientist

Skeptical Individuals....hmm....see above especially Jim and Kev

A wile ago I say the same sort of discussion at an other forum and this was my reply:

I am a healthclubowner and a groupexercise instructor and I studied medicine, psychology and have done almost every examination possible in the sport expertise field.

With all this important knowledge and more then 10 years of teaching experience you can imagine I concidered myself quite an expert on exercise and related subjects ten years ago when I saw this adverticement telling me about this 'perfect' exercisemachine and also telling me that I was a stubborn expert blinded by professional tunnelvision for not seeing the truth in the Rom-theory.

I am glad I wasn't too much of an expert not to be triggered by the add and I ordered documentation. Imagine ten years ago telling that a HIT training could offer the same cardiovascular results as 30 minutes jogging.
Now ten years later the odds have changed. HIT research is booming and all the things MR. Temme has been telling the world for almost 20 years where proven right by TNO (a independed dutch science institute) and presented at the ASCM annual meeting may last year.

If you have any respect for yourself being an expert just read your literature and know the facts found in the last few years before starting to attack people who are so vital for progression.

Come on boys and girls, try the leap of faith and jump over you shadows to discover a new world of other ways to reach the same goals.
I did ten years ago when I bought my first Rom-machine.

Sure you will not become an olympic athlete by training on the Rom(but even this kind of athlete will experience a hell of a workout)but you will have the means to reach out to 80% of the general population and give them a real option to get and stay fit enough to have a bigger change to stay healty. All other efforts ( groupexercise weight training jogging etc etc etc)have had years to prove not to be the live-lasting answer for the bigger part of the population.

Consider we are only enhanced(or if you like degenerated)apes. Have you ever seen an ape running for more then a few minutes!(eating and sleeping YES)Offering long duration exercise is a violation against our biology and as such made for failure. Not only our physiology but also our psyche is made for short intensive action. Sure we can force our body in doing something like jogging for hours but that doesn't make it OK. The only reason a runner is feeling like walking on clouds after an hour running is our body making endorfine to save itself. The body thinks it's in danger being eaten by a sabertooth tiger and tries everything to keep on going. TORTURE!

Biologically HIT training is the answer.

HIT training normally is a thing for trained athletes but with the Rom it's now safe and available for everybody.

Expensive? When you compare it with a tighbuster Yes. When you compare it with other professional fitness machinery NO.
Especially when you take into concideration how much an average person spents in money and time on all kind of conventional machinery and healthclubs and never have any lasting results but an empty wallet, dissapointments.

So I stopped behaving like an autistic politician not paying attention to the needs and possiblities of the majority of my members. Some experts choose to behave like religious fanatics. They own the one and only truth, I chose not to be one of them and so can you.

I jumped and I invite you to jump too,

Boris Sala, healthclub owner AND a Proud Rom owner.

ps Some suggested reading:

Triggering of Sudden Death
from Cardiac Causes by
Vigorous Exertion
Albert et al, NEJM, 343 (19), 1355-1361.
Conclusion
�These prospective data from a
study of U.S. male physicians
suggest that habitual vigorous
exercise diminishes the risk of
sudden death during vigorous
exertion.�

Very intense exercise-training
is extremely potent and time
efficient: a reminder
Coyle, E.F. (2005). JAP, 98 (6), 1983-1984.
�The findings of Burgomaster et
al. (2005) challenge the concept
that aerobic endurance performance
is only enhanced by
aerobic endurance training. On
the surface, this concept seems
logical, but it has been long ago
proven wrong both in the
realm of athletics as well as
muscle biochemistry.�

Although more comprehensive inquiry is necessary,
present evidence suggests that, when exercise is
performed above the minimum intensity threshold, the
total volume of training (kcal) accomplished is an
important factor in fitness development and
maintenance. That is, improvement will be similar for
activities performed at a lower intensity-longer duration
compared with higher intensity-shorter duration if the
total energy cost of the activities is similar.�
(Medicin and science in sports&exercise)

Specific results ROM-research:

http://www.hitfit.ca/content/images/H.I.T-Research_Paper2.pdf

http://www.fastexercise.com/pdf/High-Intensity_Exercise_on_the_ROM.pdf

http://www.fastexercise.com/pdf/Effects_on_Muscle.pdf

I just want to say that the ROM machine of fastexercise.com is ovbiously a SCAM, i feel sorry for the stupid people that falls into it, and also feel sorry that the government doesnt have an agency that investigates scams like this, and punish the con artists for ripping off the americans with low i.q.

Brian, just because it is still on the market does NOT MEAN IT WORKS. There are midnight, usually between 2 and 4 am though, commercials on tv that are for products that either have been out for 20 years and noone uses because they really dont work as well as others, mostly just to get that 1 out of 10,000 people who are gullible enough to purchase it. WHen they ask for their money back , sorry the company either doesnt exist or you paid the shipping fee and we cannot return that as per rules. Your ROM machine is something that sure makes you feel something, but does absolutely NOTHING. My friend has one , he was a stock market whiz who got out before the problems started, oh by the way to him the 15k was like dropping a penny on the street because you dont want to be bothered with pennis in your pocket. I have used the machine, and i have to say ... "L O L" it was dumber than the idea of using cocaine in coka cola or lithium in 7up. LOL .. you obviously have some sort of compensation either directly or indirectly from the sale of the devices. You also sound like a nigerian scam artist who doesnt really know what he is writing, except the fact that it sounds important because you use big words. Again you are laughable and your product is even dumber than you are. In fact if you replace your regular workout routine with this device, you will end up gaining weight and losing muscle mass. Way to be a moron, but im sure that 1 person actually thought you defended the appliance well and that he/she really wants one for christmas.

Were you the guy selling liberty dollars at 3am on channel 7, that are made out of REAL GOLD? idiot. But then again... most consumers are idiots... and idiots tend to listen to idiots.

You are most likely a fat blob who cannot even move from his computer desk, unless you are in bed and the computer is a laptop that sinks into your rolls of fat. You probably look like the vampire in the basement in Blade. The one so fat that he cannot even roll over to get out of the light. LOL

but yea the reason i am attacking you is because instead of not saying anything, you decided to defend something that cannot be defended. And just because we do not know everything about the human physiology, we do know one thing for certain. if you do not run you will not be fit. Thank You and good riddance.

And by the way only in america do they run such advertisements on tv late night, and even in magazines such as the ROM is... america is full of the most morons on the planet, but dont be angry... there is a good amount of us that did not vote for Bush... eer i mean buy into these idiotic scams.

````SCAM ALERT SCAM ALERT````

*FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE*

!!DO NOT BUY THE ROM!!

````SCAM ALERT SCAM ALERT````

oh wait your going to jump on something..

when i said that some devices dont work as well as others..

i meant that YOUR DEVICE.. THE ROM.. DOES NOT WORK AT ALL

COMPARE IT TO RUNNING

IF BY RUNNING YOU GET 100% OF POSSIBLE POSITIVE GAIN

THEN IN COMPARISON THE ROM WOULD GET YOU 0.000001% GAIN.. WHICH IS NOT GAIN... IT IS ACTUALLY A LOSS BECAUSE WHEN YOU DO NOT WORK OUT FOR 1 DAY, THEN 2 DAYS, THEN 3 DAYS.. you start to lose everything you built up.

Like the ads where a really muscular guy uses the device and says YOU CAN BE RIPPED LIKE THIS... EVEN IF THE GUY USED THE DEVICE AFTER GETTING THAT RIPPED AND BIG HE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO KEEP HIS BODY LIKE THAT, IT WILL DEPLETE AND GO BACK TO HIS SCRAWNY ORIGINAL LOOK...

DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT IM SAYING? SURE YOU DO ! BUT YOUR GOING TO SAY SOMETHING ALONG THE LINES OF WHAT RELIGIOUS ZEALOTS SAY... YOU DO NOT UNDErSTAND OR THAT YOU HAVE TO HAVE FAITH... UMM SORRY... HARD WORK LEADS TO HARD BODIES... NOT SITTING AROUND LIKE A JACKASS PRAYING FOR IT TO HAPPEN, THAT IS ALL THE ROM IS... A PRAY TO GET THE BENEFITS OF EXCERCISE DEVICE.. WHICH IN LAMENS TERMS MEANS: YOU GOT DUPED AND SCAMMED

brian you are a moron, if you are actually speaking from your heart and not what you are paid to say... either way you are a un-ethical idiot. YOU PROVED IT FROM THE VERY FIRST POST YOU MADE.

REASON MAKES YOU UNDERSTAND THE ROM IS BULLSHIT, AND YOUR COMMENTS MAKE US UNDERSTAND YOU ARE A IDIOT. BUT IM SURE YOU ARE A WELL PAID IDIOT.

Brian Idiot

The results are in for the 4-minute workout, and it blows. I bought one of these ROMS and spent 4 minutes three times per day every day over the last 6 months and now I'm fatter, blobbier, lazier, and closer to death than I have ever been. I was an avid construction laborer in my 20s, and I've been on a downhill health slide ever since. The ROM hasn't even slowed it.

How's that for some solid-gold world-rocking evidence?

dave you must not have followed the directions properly...redo your testing and get back to us in 6 months, i bet you see a huge difference when the ROM is used as per the instructions!

... oh wait im not brian.

...YOUR RESULTS ARE CORRECT, YOU HAVE BEEN HAD.

There are many scams in the world. There are also many experts in the world. Most of us are skeptical of things that make claims that dont seem possible. Most of us lock on to the words of the experts and believe that they are all knowing.
Two things that you I have found out in life. Most things that make claims that seem impossible to believe turn out to not work as stated. The second is most people that seem as experts are people of knowledge in a very small area and are unwilling to try something before making a negative judgment.
Ive seen that ads for the ROM 4-minue workout for years. I read the studies and sought out more information. I talked with people who had used the machines for periods of time. I then went to cities that had 4-minute workout centers with a group of people and we tried the ROM.
I became a believer and opened up a 4-minute workout center. I provide a free week trial for anyone. Over 60% of the people that try the machine at least twice become members. What my members love about the machine is that it works you as hard as you want to be worked. My 70+ year old clients get a good workout and my young competitive athletes get a very intense workout. We have been open for nearly a year and I have a number of people who have nearly 9 months of positive results.

And by "positive results" I'll assume that that refers to cash flow.

Almost any work out device will "work you as hard as you want to be worked". Easy workout? Treadmill at 10 min pace. Hard? Treadmill at 6 min pace with increasing elevation. Same goes for Nordic Track, swimming, stepper, lifting weights, etc.

Duh.

I'm completely amazed how ignorant people tend to be when they express knowledge about a topic but have no understanding of. If we all thought like that the world would still be flat, like their gray matter. The ROM Machine is great. I've been using it for 9 months about 4 to 5 time a week and haven't felt better in a long time. I used to be an amateur boxer winning the Golden Gloves for the state many years ago and found this machine to be excellent workout. As far as conditioning goes it keeps the body working for many hours after the workout. Im hoping to purchase one later this year and feel most of the criticisms come from those that cant or will never be able to afford it. Dont be ignorant, try it and at least have some knowledge. Im sure these were the same ones crying when gas went up a buck or two a gallon which what like 100 to 200 more a month. For those, forget the ROM and get a couple more jobs so you arent broke.