"For most men, sex is as important as breathing"

You don't have to post this as it is a personal message and totally unrelated to the topic at hand. I was searching to find this thread and looking to see what direction the conversation had taken when I found your other blog, "bioephemera" off the sci blog site. All of that, just to tell you I was really amazed at your artwork. There is some really great stuff there. I'm pretty poor and recently redecorated part of my space with photo posters by Koetser. Very translucent looking flowers and leaves. Your stuff, while obviously not photographic appeals in the same way at the same level. Very, very cool to see it. Thanks for posting it!

Faux Noise is about as newsworthy as YouTube comments or WhirledNutDaily. Just ignore it.

The other nine items on the list are equally as ridiculous.

(I violated the moral of the story and read the article anyway. And my conclusions are in agreement with yours.)

Omigawd! These poor men are being denied sex by their cruel women? Oh, this is so sad! If only these poor men had a handy substitute!

sounds like a regular greek tragedy... or at least some sort of Peloponnesian drama.

It's as if they think sex is somehow optional and just a bit of fun for women, whereas for men it's LIKE OXYGEN LOL THEY HAVE TO HAVE IT TO BE ALIVE OR ELSE THEY'LL DIE FROM NO VAGINAL JUICES ON THEIR COCKS.

Fellas who manage to realize women are in fact people, awesome.

Tiny-cocked cretins who don't, go back to the sandbox and play with the other little boys.

Sure am glad I'm gay.

Beyond the ad hominem attacks on Faux News (which I heartily endorse on the same grounds that I would encourage ostracizing a mad dog) , there is an ethical question here: to what extent is it moral to use or withhold (physical or other) affection in a relationship for reasons of coercion? And do women in fact do this more than men?

I would suggest that the answer is far more complex than we might suppose.

I never thought I would play devil's advocate for a Faux News piece, but...

Forgetting all the noise about the vital necessity of sex to the male gender, I think that withholding sex - by either gender - is a bad move. Nothing says intimacy in a relationship (assuming that's the context) like depriving your partner of gratification as a means of exerting power in the relationship. Women in particular shouldn't have to withhold sex in relationships, and I roundly condemn anything that puts women in such a position, but it still strikes me as a bad move (and hopefully not a necessary evil).

Not that the author of the list in question was arguing such or that I expect anyone to really be unreasonable about this, but still.

I, too, ignored the moral of the story and read the article. The author's joking, right?

To that annoying guy who wouldn't take no for an answer: I'm so sorry that I gave you a fake phone number. I apologize for your mental anguish and bruised ego. I can be very cruel sometimes.

Yup, it's Lysistrata.

Will always remember the play we did at school...

I've seen this before. Crap, where have I seen this before???

This is a time-tested, and frequently used, cruel thing for women to do to men. For most men, sex is as important as breathing, so withholding it in order to get something she wants or simply to punish her man for his transgressions is a pretty awful thing to do, even if it is effective.

Wow! Someone is still trying to get away with that "if we don't, I'll suffer a horrible fate!" schtick.

That was a running joke forty-plus years ago when I was in high school, and here there are idiots who think it will get them somewhere. P. T. Barnum and Abraham Lincoln would have had a field day.

I thought the 10 items in the article fit my experience with many of the women I have either dated or been in relationships with over last 30 years. I am not sure what to make of your comments regarding the list. With respect to withholding sex as a means of manipulation or showing disapproval, I would think that it would be obvious that this is immature behavior. Now, all relationships have their conflicts, and everyone at times can be upset with their partner and not feel "that lovin' feeling', but withholding sex just to get back at your partner is wrong.
I have been fortunate to have lived in other cultures and have experienced the male/female dynamic from very different perspectives. I think the current American dynamic is not particularly healthy. Your knee-jerk reaction to this article is indicative of this.

I also succumbed and read the article. #4, "Using physical violence", says men are raised to believe it's wrong to hit a woman (doesn't stop a lot of guys though) and there are women who exploit that fact by beating up the guy to exert power over them.

OK, that isn't the funny part, this is: the word "power" was hyperlinked to Bing-search ads for ways to "Increase your muscle mass". Talk about "context Fail"!

what an important scholarly work that was. i am stupider for having read it. thanks fox "news".

Well, maybe for David Carradine. ;-)

demiurge, your experience sounds unfortunate.

Note that most of the things on this list would be problematic if done by either men *or* women. Yet the list seems to imply men are uniquely traumatized by having sex denied to them, which just perpetuates a lot of stupid old stereotypes.

Are men really so enslaved to their libidos that simply denying them sex harms them? I seriously doubt it - most men I know are way more mature than that. But more importantly, if a women is so upset with her partner/relationship that she resorts to denying her partner sex, then she probably isn't in the right mood to enjoy intimacy anyway. Should she be *obligated* to have sex just because she's in the relationship, and men "need" sex? That's a load of BS. If she won't enjoy it because she's unhappy, she doesn't have to do any such thing.

4. They donât disclose their relationship status

Youâve pulled out all your best moves and you seem to be making progress with the cute girl youâve just met. When you finally get to the point when you feel you can safely ask for her number, she smiles and says: "I have a boyfriend." That information would have been nice to have at the beginning of the conversation. Itâs certainly not the worst thing a woman could do to a man, but it is annoying when she lets you assume that sheâs available so that she can enjoy your flirtation and flattery.

or, you know, she thought you were just having a conversation, not trying to pick her up.

happens constantly to many women I know here in the States (I haven't experienced in in Europe, and don't know anyone who has). hint: just because a woman is talking to you, and enjoying the conversation, doesn't mean she wants to date you.

DC#12

The difference between PT Barnum and a man who is not getting any is that PT Barnum could always find a sucker.

Jessica,
I agree that most of the items on the list apply to both sexes equally well....although I doubt Men have rarely used women to get them to buy them drinks (#9) ;)

Men are fairly enslaved to their libidos. Think of all of the effort, time and money men put into satiating their libidos. Can there be any question that it is not one of the most powerful instincts human males have? You dismiss this need for physical interaction and then insulting make light of it.
What if a man was to withhold his physical affection,i.e. soft caresses,kissing, snuggling, hand-holding, etc., to manipulate his partner would that be treated with the same lack of empathy?
Men usually don't resort to this behavior anywhere near the frequency that women do.
You ask, should she be obligated to have sex if she doesn't feel like having sex. Do men do many things that they don't feel like doing in order to make their partner feel better or help mend a conflict? Many do. I would say in many Asian cultures I have experienced, that there is less of a predilection with using sex as a means to either punish or manipulate their partner. I would also include much of eastern Europe and the parts of Africa I have visited too. As a sidebar; this topic is of great interest to me so I make it a point to try and understand the male/female dynamic wherever I have lived or visited.

The list of the nasty things men do to women would look pretty much the same.

One person's "witholding sex as punishment" is another's "I certainly don't want to be intimate when I'm angry with you." Demiurge, you seem to be equating sex for men with cuddling for women. Not the same at all. But if my partner were angry with me, I certainly wouldn't expect him to kiss and caress me. It's an extreme personal violation to "service" someone you're angry with.
NO ONE is entitled to sex. NO ONE is entitled to kisses, caresses, and the like. If your partner is angry with you--male or female--of COURSE the physical affection won't be there. Women (and men!) aren't convenience stores. If you don't feel like having sex when you're angry, then don't. It's not manipulation, it's emotional honesty.

Sheesh, good thing I'm not "most men".

to what extent is it moral to use or withhold (physical or other) affection in a relationship for reasons of coercion?

The subquestion "to what extent is it reasonable to flatly assume that being told 'no' when you approach (who? Your partner, presumably...) for sex is intended as coercion?"

Meh, there's a kernel of truth in most of these complaints, but between the histrionic, self-pitying interpretation (I would be mildly surprised if this was actually written by a woman) and the willful blindness to reciprocal bad behavior by a certain proportion of men in relationships, it's useless.

"You ask, should she be obligated to have sex if she doesn't feel like having sex. Do men do many things that they don't feel like doing in order to make their partner feel better or help mend a conflict? Many do."

Just wow. A less than willing or unenthusiastic partner should make a dude stop what he is doing, period. *everyone* does things that they don't want to do to help people, but I really don't think it is ok to encourage people to have sex they don't want. Encouraging the idea that such an interaction is acceptable or normal contributes to rape culture. Sex shouldn't be something men do to women, it should be something that both people participate in of their own free will (as in no coercion or emotional blackmail involved). Anything else is extremely likely to make for resentment and anger, and rightfully so if you ask me.

And yes, everyone gets it is a strong urge. what they don't get is why it is why men aren't responsible for that urge. its not anyone elses fault or responsibility to deal with it, period. no one owes anyone any sex, ever.

Guys, if she's withholding sex chances are you're not doing it right.

It's as if they think sex is somehow optional and just a bit of fun for women, whereas for men it's LIKE OXYGEN LOL THEY HAVE TO HAVE IT TO BE ALIVE OR ELSE THEY'LL DIE FROM NO VAGINAL JUICES ON THEIR COCKS.

I've read that there are still conservative male Americans out there who believe all women are completely asexual (just not aromantic). And while that's the extreme case, the belief that men have a stronger sex drive than women keeps going, even though AFAIK it has never been tested statistically.

or, you know, she thought you were just having a conversation, not trying to pick her up.

Reminds me of Last Action Hero: "I have never just talked to a woman before!" Scary to learn that there are such people in real life.

Men are fairly enslaved to their libidos. Think of all of the effort, time and money men put into satiating their libidos. Can there be any question that it is not one of the most powerful instincts human males have? You dismiss this need for physical interaction and then insulting make light of it.

Then darn it, they can go wank. If your partner doesn't want to, she doesn't want to.

Let me be clear about my last post: I think it is immature to use sex as a means of control when angry. My point is that there seems to be a sense among many men that they are entitled to sex whenever they want it - that when they enter a relationship, they are somehow entitled to unrestricted access, even from the woman herself, to her vagina. Not all, but a lot. I'm not sure how people don't see that this is somehow a violation of a woman's personal space and body if she doesn't want it and starts edging into that nasty little grey area separating consent and rape.

Also, I somehow doubt men are THAT enslaved to their libidos. Why, some of them get educations and become accomplished individuals. If they were enslaved to their libidos, it would interfere with the rest of their lives.

Part of being an adult is knowing when and how to control various urges. Not that they need controlling all the time, but you certainly don't jump someone when they don't want to be jumped.

You ask, should she be obligated to have sex if she doesn't feel like having sex. Do men do many things that they don't feel like doing in order to make their partner feel better or help mend a conflict?

See, *some* people think that sex is, instead of a service that a woman provides a man, a fun activity that two people do together for their mutual pleasure. Those people find it baffling that you would want to have sex with a reluctant or only technically consenting partner. How is that fun?

No one owes you sex. Not that it's not possible to use sex to manipulate someone, but saying to your partner, "I just don't feel like it tonight," is not necessarily manipulation, or a horrible mean nasty awful thing to do. If it happens all the time, maybe there's a vast difference between the libidos of the two partners, which is a problem in itself, but not unsolvable.

Or else, perhaps, when a man treats a woman like a sex-dispensing machine, it's a major turn-off.

Demiurge@20:

You missed out a word. SOME "men are fairly enslaved to their libidos." Plenty manage not to be. I'll grant that most men have probably made a dumb decision at some point on the basis of libido, but most of the ones I know don't make a habit out of it.

To offer a definition (from "Memory", by Lois McMaster Bujold):

"It's not the years, it's the attitude. Boys just want to get laid. Men want to get on with their lives."

(The conversation carries on with Miles, the hero, observing that "Men want to get laid too", to which his companion replies "Yes, but it isn't all-encompassing. They have brain cells available for other functions". Which about sums it up, really.)

I whole heartedly agree with all the comments regarding a womans right to say no. I believe the statement was too strongly worded. But, I like some other posters think that the issue could use actual research and examination. If I'm in a relationship with a woman and I love her, and she decides we aren't going to have sex until I....do what ever she wants...whether it is take her hunting :), help her with research, remodel the kitchen, massage her feet and sand her callouses....what ever...I mean it could be something mundane or it could be something huge. The point is that sometimes it isn't about wanting to or not wanting to...it is about a relationship power play. A power play that would work really well with a more evolved male. Someone who isn't going to be a knuckle dragging neandrathal. "Well, if I really love her, I'd support her in all her efforts...maybe I should type her thesis for her..just to be nice...it is not like I'm motivated by the thought of sex..." My humor might fall flat, but I hope you don't miss the point. The silent treatment and with holding emotions, as well as acting angry but refusing to resolve the issue, as well as with holding contact are all tactics which are hugely destructive to relationships

Jessica,

This is my first time reading your blog - I haven't had a chance to look around much, but I am keenly interested in the ways in which sexism and misogyny are experienced, encouraged, articulated, fought against and so forth. So I appreciate your posting on this topic (I have not gone to the link; I've only read what you and other commentors have written). I am really inspired by the discussions around sexism that have recently been appearing in science and skeptic oriented blogs (e.g. Skeptifem). I hope that this conversation will continue. So thank you for this.

Question for Katherine at #4 (which I hope doesn't de-rail the thread):

Tiny-cocked cretins who don't, go back to the sandbox and play with the other little boys.

Where should the cretins with average or above average sized cocks go? Would you like them to stay? Also, where ought the men who have tiny cocks, but who fully appreciate that women are people go? Or does size really matter?

Sorry - apologies for any snarkiness. It's just that I wonder, if by equating penis-size with manliness (i.e. with non-little-boyness), you may be helping perpetuate the very view of masculinity that drives so much of the misogyny in this hyper-sexualized youth culture (which includes guys feeling entitled to sex)?

With regard to "stuff what guys can do" to begin to over-turn the idea that sex is an entitlement (which is by no means a universal view) - maybe we need to be more proactive in our peer relationships. For example, if we encounter friends or people with whom we have a somewhat comfortable relationship complaining about how they're not getting the sex they want, need or feel they deserve, why not re-direct the conversation away from "how unfair it is!" to "it sounds like somehow you to have come out of alignment, what do you suppose happened, and what do you think would bring back into alignment? What do you think she/he would say?" Or something which could turn a complaint into an exploration. Bringing in personal examples of times when we actually took the time to get over ourselves and ask our SO how they felt, or how they experienced us could go a long way to encouraging a peer to take a bigger view of the relationship.

I might add that recent research by Tim Hallet at the U. of Indiana* suggests that the earlier negative comments about a person are met with a counter example (e.g. "yes, she does have trouble getting here on time, but the students really love her..."), the more quickly and easily the impression of that person can be de-solidified.

I dunno - maybe that sounds simplistic. But redirecting that energy - though not easy - seems more useful than ignoring it (e.g. saying nothing) or encouraging it.

* the actual study was on gossip in the workplace.

Sorry - left out a link: "Stuff what guys can do" http://fugitivus.wordpress.com/stuff-what-boys-can-do/

Many of the responses have misrepresented what I have stated and have constructed straw-man arguments to divert attention from the original points.
i.e.
Do some women withhold sex as a means to manipulate their partner?
Is this inappropriate?
Do men withhold sex as a means to manipulate their partner?

I think the answers two 1 and 2 are affirmative. Do all women do this, I think most donât. But I have been in three or four relationships where that has definitely been the case.

Do men do this too? I have never personally known or met a man or a woman who have relay an experience where this has been the case ( I am 49 years old). But I suspect that it must happen on occasion.

As far as the other 9 items on the list, the two that also strike a cord with me are.....
âThey emotionally manipulate men.â and to a lesser and more personal extent âUse Physical Violenceâ. I think the emotional manipulation many females employ in their relationships is a problem/issue that really needs to be addressed.

Again, I am not suggesting ALL males, ALL females, ALL relationships have these issues. Like most things there is a continuum...in this case, from nonexistent to egregious.

I also have to say, that it really doesnât become strikingly apparent until one lives in a different culture for a period of time and then returns to the USA. Dating while living in Japan, Malaysia, China, Czech Rep., Germany, South Africa and Korea has been an enlightening experience. The contrasts have been truly educational and give me a much better perspective on underlying male and female genetic predispositions vs cultural/religious imprinting.

I do not find the typical relationships choices in the USA very appealing any longer. Donât get me wrong, there are many things that are very appealing about American women, but having to accept the negatives with the positives, the overall attractiveness of the proposition is not as high as other alternatives. I digress.

I just saw this on HP. Tiger Woods was apparently physically assaulted with a golf club by his wife. His wife is the beautiful and intelligent Elin Nordegren. The attack apparently came after she accused him of a liaison with another women (I assume his answers to her queries were not acceptable;). So a man, that has by all indications a great wife and family, is willing to jeopardize it all; i.e. wealth, family, reputation, etc. for some libido satisfying sex on the side. Is that not evidence for the strength of the male sex drive?

Point two, if a man was to take a golf club and attack a woman(wife) in a car to the extent of causing a crash requiring a trip to the hospital, do you think that the situation would be handled comparably?

Shorter Demiurge: "Suck my dick now or I'm gonna hold my breath until I die and go to heaven and it's gonna be ALL YOUR FAULT, AMERICAN BITCH! And once I get to heaven, it's gonna be filled with horny foreign sluts who will suck my dick NOW!"

Shorter Physio Prof: I'm an angry little man who curses instead of voicing disagreement. I feel that this is the only way I can demonstrate my unresolved anger towards other men after being stuffed in a locker through high school. I'm a professional, but lack the necessary vocabulary or ability to voice disagreement without resorting to the most vulgar of name calling. Frankly, the rest of the posters can spot the neandrathal, but since I'm safe in the anonymity of blogging, I can act like an idiot and look like I'm demonstrating superiority. Look, if you can't ignore it, or gut it with a reasonable presentation, you got issues. Pay a professional and work them out. As this is a plea towards reason on "science blogs" it will go ignored or unposted because it argues that "we" should let those who disagree with us post and state their opinion without resorting to censorship or name calling.

Shorter ComradePhysioProf: I can't make a reasoned argument so I will make an ass of myself instead.

So a man, that has by all indications a great wife and family, is willing to jeopardize it all; i.e. wealth, family, reputation, etc. for some libido satisfying sex on the side. Is that not evidence for the strength of the male sex drive?

If Tiger Woods did in fact cheat on his wife, that might be evidence that he has an extremely high sex drive, or that his marriage is in trouble, or that he's a complete megalomaniac, or just that the insane obsessiveness that leads someone to practice the hours and hours it takes to become an elite golfer - possibly the best golfer in the history of that dreadfully dull sport - might spill over into insane obsessiveness in other areas of life. Such as a desire to "collect" women the way he collects golf trophies, or to "conquer" them like he conquers difficult holes.

It's not evidence for male sex drive in general.

Dude, this is "Science"blogs. Hasn't anyone told you yet that anecdote does not, actually, equal data?

"I also have to say, that it really doesnât become strikingly apparent until one lives in a different culture for a period of time and then returns to the USA. Dating while living in Japan, Malaysia, China, Czech Rep., Germany, South Africa and Korea has been an enlightening experience. The contrasts have been truly educational and give me a much better perspective on underlying male and female genetic predispositions vs cultural/religious imprinting.

I do not find the typical relationships choices in the USA very appealing any longer. Donât get me wrong, there are many things that are very appealing about American women, but having to accept the negatives with the positives, the overall attractiveness of the proposition is not as high as other alternatives. I digress."

HAAAHAHAA! Wow, are you sure you aren't a cliche producing robot? I guess you didn't blatantly come out and say the bit about how american women aren't submissive enough, but it's implied. It has nothing to do with being american, it has to do with women who think they shouldn't be dominated or oppressed by the people they choose to spend their lives with. The circumstances in america allows more women to, you know, choose what they do with their lives. This "I am sick of uppity american women" crap is the standard line you hear from people who purchase foreign brides and hell, sex tourists who purchase the use of sex slaves in other countries. Talking about women from different countries like they are flavors of candy is rather annoying too, women are individuals with all kinds of opinions and tendancies.

CPP is right anyway- The only reason you would think its appropriate to mention this is that you imagine that a whole bunch of us actually care if you are picking up american women anymore. No one cares. Really. I am so far away from caring if you find me or any other woman attractive or date worthy. Date whoever the hell you want for whatever reason you want, but don't contribute to rape culture by suggesting that women recieve sex as a favor to someone else rather than participate in it.

"As this is a plea towards reason on "science blogs" it will go ignored or unposted because it argues that "we" should let those who disagree with us post and state their opinion without resorting to censorship or name calling."

Actually, Kat Mandoo, your reply went straight into the scienceblogs spam filter, from which I had to retrieve it. I'm not going to speculate what aspect of your comment or username triggered that filter action, since you're not a regular commenter on my blog.

One of my pet peeves about being at scienceblogs is commenters like yourself, who seem incapable of comprehending that I run my own blog, independent of PZ Myers or anyone else. I really don't give a damn what you go and say on other people's blogs. If you have an issue with PhysioProf, take it up with him. But accusing me of ignoring or deleting your comment because I'm part of some vast scienceblogs conspiracy is not only rude, it's ignorant. Get over yourself.

Meanwhile, out in the real world, as women continue to get the shit beaten out of them on a routine basis across the world, men who derive their entire perspective on cruelty from articles like this or from portrayals of sitcom dads are banding together to act out their perspective-lacking outrage and it is getting scary: http://www.doublex.com/print/9316

"HAAAHAHAA! Wow, are you sure you aren't a cliche producing robot?"

If anyone is being a robotic cliche in this discussion, I would suggest your knee-jerk stereotypical histrionics fits the bill.

"I guess you didn't blatantly come out and say the bit about how american women aren't submissive enough, but it's implied."

Please show me where I said anything of the sort.

"It has nothing to do with being american, it has to do with women who think they shouldn't be dominated or oppressed by the people they choose to spend their lives with. The circumstances in america allows more women to, you know, choose what they do with their lives."

I feel the same way. It has to do with men being dominated and oppressed by the people they choose to spend their lives with. The circumstances in America is such that many men our emotionally manipulated by their partners.

"This "I am sick of uppity american women" crap is the standard line you hear from people who purchase foreign brides and hell, sex tourists who purchase the use of sex slaves in other countries. Talking about women from different countries like they are flavors of candy is rather annoying too, women are individuals with all kinds of opinions and tendancies."

Again, with the straw-man arguments. Instead of addressing my points, you divert attention and make completely unwarranted an inaccurate accusations. You seem to put great effort into trying to pigeon-hole me as some misogynistic jet-setting sex-tourist. This says more about your twisted mind than anything about me. I suggest you take a deep breath, relax, and actually take the time to reflect about what I have written before you attempt another response. It would be nice if that response might actually include your insights on the topic at hand as apposed to the emotionally wrought character assassination of this post.

"CPP is right anyway- The only reason you would think its appropriate to mention this is that you imagine that a whole bunch of us actually care if you are picking up american women anymore. No one cares. Really. I am so far away from caring if you find me or any other woman attractive or date worthy. Date whoever the hell you want for whatever reason you want, but don't contribute to rape culture by suggesting that women receive sex as a favor to someone else rather than participate in it."

So, I am now being accused of contributing to ârape cultureâ. I think this last paragraph is a perfect example of the type of emotional manipulation by American women that I spoke of earlier. I was in an emotionally abusive relationship for 7 years and I have to say, you come across as her clone.

demiurge, you speak of American women as if we are interchangeable and your limited personal experience gives you the right to make negative generalizations about us. Your intermittent efforts to deny that you are making such broad generalizations are belied by your constant return to them, e.g.,

"The circumstances in America is such that many men our emotionally manipulated by their partners."

"I think this last paragraph is a perfect example of the type of emotional manipulation by American women that I spoke of earlier."

Dude, let me be blunt. Talking about women in that way is never going to convince us you respect us. That's why so many commenters are responding negatively to you. And when it comes to manipulation, let's get one thing straight: it certainly seems like you'd like to draw us all into an anecdotal debate where we women try to refute your personal anecdotes about your abusive ex-girlfriends with detailed reassurances about how we supply our boyfriends and partners with plenty of sex. I would find any such personal discussion completely crass, disgusting and offensive, and I assume most other people here would as well.

Yet your constant harping on your personal experience takes the conversation in that direction, and away from more useful discussions of stereotypes in media and their general social impact. If you have empirical data to back up the idea that American women are generally emotionally manipulative towards men, more so than human beings are in general towards each other, if you have studies or other resources to cite, then bring it on so we can talk about it objectively. But if all you have to support your assertions is your own personal dating drama, coupled with hoary old cliches, I'm afraid you're not going to change many minds.

My apologies. I myself have noted a tendency in some areas, besides your blog and science blogs in general, that commenters are filtered or screened because they don't toe the line of the blog holder. I will say this: demiurge's biggest mistake was to suggest *all* American women have a problem and that he had been in an *abusive* relationship. Different cultures do have different attitudes towards sexuality and gender relationships. I believe that some other cultures have women in as strong a role as the American culture. If not stronger. I believe it is possible as well to "fall into" situations in which the culture in a specific group, blog thread, geographical area, etc is such that indicating displeasure with men is accepted and applauded while indicating displeasure with women is considered, without further review the act of a misogynist, a potential rapist and a person who must somehow be sick or damaged. Granted, there are places that men go where they still complain about women and complaints about men are waved off....but, in those places, in civilized America, the person complaining about men is not very likely to be labeled sick and/or dangerous. They will simply be dismissed...which some may consider worse because it is a very powerless way to be treated.

Respect should be mutual should it not? Who has been more disrespectful in this conversation? I suggest that I have shown considerably more respect than many of the posters criticizing me. They have tended to resort to ad hominem attacks and ascribing views and positions I do not hold and have never expressed. From my perspective this is an attempt to squelch the point I have been trying to address by intentional character assassination. I suggest you spend more of your effort on redirecting their misbehavior before lecturing to me.

So, instead of further trying to (mis)characterize me in such a way that allows one to discount and therefore avoid my arguments, I suggest we put aside comments on personalities and get back to the issues. I know this is a tall order on a topic that is so emotionally charged, but can we at least put forth a better effort. Any further ad hominem attacks will be ignored.

I suggest that many of the items on the original list are accurate and should be discussed. Is there anyone suggesting that the list is completely wrong or not accurate? In discussions such as this obviously we will have to resort to personal anecdote on occasion or rely on personal observations and experience. Hard data is difficult to come by in this situation. If I have inappropriately muddled the conversation with personal observations and quips I apologize.

Terrible to think that most won't question the validity of such an article.

demiurge
not worth it - they do not want to understand.
We both understand and can be glad not to have to be with these US women. When mine does not want, so what, I do. Bang Bang, thank you mam. She is always much happier afterward - never fails.

"Dr. Dr." scares me, as well as the probability that he is no more than a satirical attempt at re-stating what he *thinks* someone else's position is. In the movie, "Good Morning Viet Nam," after rising to great popularity and losing his job because of his being unaware of an associates connection to the North, Adrian Cronhauer says to his Master Sergeant, who greatly plotted his downfall, "You are the white man most in need of a blow job, I've ever met." Or something to that effect. While I'm wildly, passionately, against forcing anyone to have sex in any fashion I think that in being human we can all admit that having sex relieves a great deal of tension. This does not mean you "tame the shrew" by raping her. I would think that suggesting that getting laid would help, would probably piss most women right the fuck off. But, when it comes down to brass tacks...I think we all can admit, that if we are upset, angry, irritable...getting laid can help one hell of a lot.

"Guys, if she's withholding sex chances are you're not doing it right."

That's always the case with me... at least emotionally, I don't know if a lot of women are like this but if it feels like I'm in a porno or something I'll start crying, can't imagine that's a turn on for most guys!